I have much the same question for you, Rosmerta. Does the tendency of Roman Catholic Christianity to lose entire peoples to Protestantism, agnosticism, or what-have-you raise the possibility of any significant defect in Roman Catholic Christianity?

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

It definitely shows a defect in Roman Catholic Christians, Kralizec – I’m very sorry to have to say. I’m amazed no one has brought up the child molesters yet. It’s all too true that evils and indifference are still part of us, even when we’ve embraced a faith. I fully sympathize with those who feel driven away by the hypocrisies they see, because they’re all too real at times.

I think, though, that if you look back through history (as I remember from Chesterton’s book, once again) the Church has also been renewed from within, many times. The breakaways have been the sensational events everyone remembers, because they’ve resulted in new sects. It’s harder to see the work of those who renewed the faith in keeping it united – look at the great work of one of our greatest philosophers and theologians,St. Athanasius, as in the fourth century he defeated the teachings of Arianism (that Jesus was not fully divine). This was a struggle that rocked the church of the day, yet it’s barely remembered now and probably unknown to most Catholics … all because Athanasius succeeded in keeping the Church united.

Bonus question. Would the beliefs and leanings (if fully implemented) of Alphie and Dave make these two problems worse or better?

dave742 on August 19, 2008 at 9:41 AM

It sounds like you are not a fan of the U.S.A..

Haaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The UK] scored a little better for education but languished in the bottom third for all other measures, giving it the lowest overall placing, along with the United States.

It must have been difficult to find a source even more intellectually dishonest than Newsmax.

Britain is the worst country in the Western world in which to be a child, according to a recent UNICEF report.

This UNICEF report is from February, 2007, which is not exactly recent. Here is the report. As you can see, we are very lucky to live in the great US of A, because we are the second worst country in the Western world in which to be a child! Awesome!

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One must also educate the young in how to live.

When the first surpasses the second, you end up with what UK is facing today.

Cultural dilution, a floating value system, non-judgementalism negating the rule of law, balkanization of culture, and a youth lost to any sense of right or wrong, any sense that any of this life we have makes any sense at all.

Materialism? That is just a symptom. Rampant teen pregnancy? Just a symptom. Widespread drug use? Simply another symptom.

One education to make a living.

The other education to know how to live.

Seems in UK, and here in America as well, most just have not allowed themselves to see it yet, in our efforts to educate our young in how to make a living, we have neglected to teach our children how to live.

In this, we have imperiled our nation, and their future.

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 3:37 AM

Demography is more than a headcount. The distribution of the populace by age is inverted. Those older people will die, not having replaced themselves. Already, the uteri are shriveling. Such young English, Welsh, Scots, and Irish as there are have begun an outward migration. The U.K. is dying, alphie, and all my embarrassment over my poor reading recommendations is having no effect. “What good is utopia, if it only lasts a generation?”

Connie on August 19, 2008 at 2:51 AM
Many people uphold many things. Do continent-wide, lemming-like migrations of wills toward the Faith and, later, away from the Faith prompt any questions about the freedom of wills? Can faith in free will lead one to overlook evidence of problems with that doctrine, or are wills free from influence by faith? Do my questions cause any doubts, or are wills free from influence by questions?

I think the tendency of millions of people to get up and wander away from the Faith, in massive movements, is a problem for the intelligent and inquisitive Faithful, especially if “wills” are “free.”

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 3:37 AM

Wow…you are an incredible moron. I hate ad hominems, but you have nothing to back up what you say. Go back to DKos or DU, please.

And a link to a “book” by Mark Steyn is an embarrassment to whoever posts it…

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1596985275/

Dying.

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

Over the decade, net inflows of non-British citizens increased substantially, from 127,000 in 1995 to 342,000 by 2004. At the same time, net outflows of British citizens have increased. Net losses of Britons from the UK grew rapidly over the decade, from 17,000 in 1994 to 120,000 in 2004. The largest numbers out-migrating are in the 25 to 44 age group, but since 1999 there has also been a net outflow of British citizens aged 45 to state pension age. In 2003, around two fifths of British citizens out-migrating were moving to other countries in the EU and over one quarter to Australia or New Zealand.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1311

Dying.

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=951

Dying.

Does the tendency of Christianity to lose the peoples of entire countries and continents suggest that there’s anything wrong with Christianity?

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 2:34 AM

Not at all. Christianity upholds free will. Would you have it any other way?

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=6

Dying.

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator.cfm?IndicatorID=138&country=GB#rowGB

Dying.

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator_detail.cfm?IndicatorID=138&Country=GB

Rosmerta on August 19, 2008 at 2:27 AM

I have much the same question for you, Rosmerta. Does the tendency of Roman Catholic Christianity to lose entire peoples to Protestantism, agnosticism, or what-have-you raise the possibility of any significant defect in Roman Catholic Christianity?

By all accounts

No, by one account…from a shrill little prig, Kralizec

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that the Brits have largely abandoned Christianity. Nature abhors a vacuum.

packsoldier on August 18, 2008 at 11:06 PM

Does the tendency of Christianity to lose the peoples of entire countries and continents suggest that there’s anything wrong with Christianity?

Ya know? Why is the UK imploding this way? They just don’t seem to care anymore over there. It concerns me. Any teabag regulars care to comment?

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 10:53 PM

This American Anglophile agrees with those who say the biggest problem is the abandoning of Christianity. In fact I’ll take it back to Henry VIII. Just because he wanted a divorce, England broke away from the Universal Church. That started it all IMO, though as long as basic morality and most basic Christian teachings were still the norm (as they were for centuries) British society could remain fairly healthy.

But look what happens when a church no longer has a magisterium that gives it authority. Like most other Protestant sects, the Church of England went its own way, eventually adopting the fashions of the day, and instead of challenging the norms of society is now trying to accommodate them. The result is an Archbishop who seems to favor sharia law, a church that seems to be doing nothing to call its people back to godly living, and has lost millions of believers over the years.

I hang on to the words of John Paul the Great, who foretold (I think that word is not too strong) a new springtime of faith for the Catholic Church. We are going to see, I think are already starting to see, a movement of people fed up with our permissive society and ready to return to authentic Christian life. That movement will be the spark, perhaps one of many, that will turn things around to a great degree.

I just finished re-reading G.K. Chesterton’s The Everlasting Man (interestingly, this is the book that finally convinced C.S. Lewis of the truth of Christianity), and I was struck by Chesterton’s reading of history – he showed how at least five times over the last two millennia, huge upheavals in society brought about massive changes (at the fall of the Roman Empire, etc.). Yet through all these changes, the Church Jesus Christ founded did not fall, though by all logic it should have.

Through all the centuries when other gods and religions have come and gone, Christianity has remained, sometimes going underground, sometimes seeming to be nothing more than background to chaos and upheaval, but always returning stronger than before. Not for nothing is the Catholic Church the oldest continuous institution in the world. Only the Spirit of God could prevail in such a way – everything else that man has attempted has ended in overthrow or degradation.

Chesterton discusses the Roman Empire as a prime example of the summit of what man could achieve in terms of philosophy, social organization, and in other ways – and yet Rome itself could not stand. But the Church of Rome did.

Sorry I’m going on so long about this, and thanks if you’re still reading! It’s just that it’s becoming clearer and clearer to me that only the work of the Holy Spirit will allow us to overcome the evils of the world.

My hat is off to those agnostics and atheists who uphold morals and standards based solely on their own convictions – I really admire them, because I know I’m too weak to do likewise. And I suspect the same is true for many people. Not that religion is merely our crutch, but that if we didn’t have it we would be much worse as people.