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Quote of the day

posted at 10:40 pm on August 18, 2008 by Allahpundit
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“A system of perverse incentives in a culture of undiscriminating materialism, where the main freedom is freedom from legal, financial, ethical, or social consequences, makes childhood in Britain a torment both for many of those who live it and those who observe it. Yet the British government will do anything but address the problem, or that part of the problem that is its duty to address: the state-encouraged breakdown of the family. If one were a Marxist, one might see in this refusal the self-interest of the state-employee class: social problems, after all, are their raison d’être.”


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This reminds me yet again of Allan Bloom:
“Students these days are, in general, nice. I choose the word carefully. They are not particularly moral or noble. Neither war nor tyranny nor want has hardened them or made demands on them. The wounds and rivalries caused by class distinction have disappeared along with any strong sense of class (as it once existed in universities in America and as it still does poisonously, in England). Students are free of most constraints, and their families make sacrifices for them without asking much in the way of obedience or respect. Religion and national origin have almost no noticeable effect on their social life or their career prospects. Although few really believe in ‘the system,’ they do not have a burning sentiment that injustice is being done to them. The drugs and sex once thought to be forbidden are available in quantities required for sensible use… Students these days are pleasant, friendly and, if not great-souled, at least not particularly mean-spirited. Their primary preoccupation is themselves, understood in the narrowest sense.”
Allan Bloom, “The Closing of the American Mind,” 1987, pg. 82-83

Send_Me on August 18, 2008 at 10:44 PM

OT: Reportedly, an Obama aide’s mistake has revealed that Evan Bayh is the VP selection (link).

SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 10:45 PM

That was hard to read.

Slublog on August 18, 2008 at 10:48 PM

That was hard to read.

Sorry, you need to magnify the page obviously:

Key graf:

When the name of the pick – now known to be Indiana Senator Evan Bayh – was filled in [the generic e-mail], the aide working on the e-mail accidently pressed the “send” button, rather than the intended “save” button.

This hasn’t been, to my knowledge, verified.

SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 10:51 PM

Good choice for the coveted “quote of the day” slot..the article is worth a thoughtful read, worth the extra bloody mary…sad tho, eh?

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 10:51 PM

No government created problem is so big that more government can’t fix it make it worse.

lorien1973 on August 18, 2008 at 10:52 PM

Ya know? Why is the UK imploding this way? They just don’t seem to care anymore over there. It concerns me. Any teabag regulars care to comment?

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 10:53 PM

Karen Matthews, who received welfare payments of $40,000 a year, had borne seven children to five different men.

Hey. At least someone is reproducing over there.

lorien1973 on August 18, 2008 at 10:54 PM

In general, the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other.
- Voltaire

MB4 on August 18, 2008 at 10:55 PM

The CNN story re Bayh’s selection has been pulled from their website.

Hmm….?

SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 10:57 PM

I was just over at CNN – NO STORY.

HawaiiLwyr on August 18, 2008 at 10:59 PM

I was just over at CNN – NO STORY.

Either someone at CNN screwed up or someone photoshopped a page and is spreading some disinformation.

Or, it’s Bayh.

My guess is the former and not the latter (i.e., not Bayh).

SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 11:01 PM

Somebody stay up with me.

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 11:01 PM

sniff. no Leon Panetta calling Hillary supporters inbreds? I thought it had quote of the day written all over it too.

funky chicken on August 18, 2008 at 11:02 PM

Hey, it’s only 8 pm where I live.

funky chicken on August 18, 2008 at 11:02 PM

The sun is setting…’er good ol’ Brittain…for good.

More Pauls than Peters

Entelechy on August 18, 2008 at 11:04 PM

Last time in England I noticed a lot of uncontrolled drunks on the streets.

(Or maybe that was Parliament in recess?)

The guilt of Empire (both lost and once successfully imperialistic) must be a great excuse to turn into spotted dicks.

(Their subsidies for infidel-hating jihadists are most generous, too.)

profitsbeard on August 18, 2008 at 11:04 PM

Steve, where did you get that page?

funky chicken on August 18, 2008 at 11:04 PM

The UK’s imploding because they gave up on Jesus Christ and his teachings.

Mojave Mark on August 18, 2008 at 11:05 PM

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that the Brits have largely abandoned Christianity. Nature abhors a vacuum.

packsoldier on August 18, 2008 at 11:06 PM

Britain has the third-highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the industrialized world, according to the UNICEF report (only the United States and New Zealand are higher)

The bible thumpers cutting back funding for sex education seems to have worked out well for us.

alphie on August 18, 2008 at 11:07 PM

Steve, where did you get that page?

Instapundit is linking to it; I got it from someone at Free Republic.

Reynolds’ link is to this: Bayh.

It appears to be a hoax or a screwup by CNN.

SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 11:07 PM

alphie on August 18, 2008 at 11:07 PM

I guess conservatives also cut back on parents talking to their kids themselves, too.

lorien1973 on August 18, 2008 at 11:08 PM

funky, that’s my girl.

As far as Obama’s VP choice goes…does it really matter to the Obamagazmers?

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 11:08 PM

No

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 11:10 PM

That CNN report is, from most accounts, a fake.

FWIW, my guess is that it’s still Biden.

SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 11:10 PM

I am truly sorry that I read this.

I am even more sorry that it happens.

This week in NY,,,a young mother (18) dropped her 5 WEEK old baby, head first to the sidewalk and then got into a car and drove away. Yes, she left the new born on the sidewalk.

When she was caught she said that she was “going through a rough time” and “wanted to walk away from it all”….the baby that is.

“Mommy dearest” is in jail and so is “Father of the Year/BOYFRIEND”. “Mommy dearest” for the obvious…….”Father of the Year” for giving “Mommy Dearest” alcohol. She is only 18 after all and supplying her with alcohol is against the law. FOTY is 22.

Somehow, I know this is the fault of “John McCain’s President”.

Talon on August 18, 2008 at 11:18 PM

put this on the other thread, just IMHO:

Poor Obama campaign. So desperate for buzz that they are reduced to sending out fake photoshop VP announcements.

Bayh, like Clinton and Hagel probably turned him down.

funky chicken on August 18, 2008 at 11:18 PM

Hey. At least someone is reproducing over there.
lorien1973 on August 18, 2008 at 10:54 PM

There are quite a few people reproducing in England, though man of them don’t quite have a fondness for the St. George’s Cross, if you know what I mean.

Bishop on August 18, 2008 at 11:19 PM

Talon on August 18, 2008 at 11:18 PM

sheesh. like she couldn’t just leave the kid at a hospital or charity office

what a damn joke that so many great couples can’t have kids of their own, but human refuse like that can just pump em out.

funky chicken on August 18, 2008 at 11:20 PM

There are quite a few people reproducing in England, though man of them don’t quite have a fondness for the St. George’s Cross, if you know what I mean.

Bishop on August 18, 2008 at 11:19 PM

Another great dream of Islam will come true then. All Muslims dream to see flags that read: “There is no god but Allah” fluttering in the wind over Big Ben”.

Aleph on August 18, 2008 at 11:25 PM

That article on Britain is sad and horrific.

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 10:53 PM

:

I picked this sentence out:

The British may have always inclined toward harshness or neglect (or both) in dealing with children; but never before have they combined such attitudes with an undiscriminating material indulgence.

My opinion as a “teabag regular” is that too many of the British aristocracy for too long have sent their children off to boarding school at an early age. IMO, there wasn’t grounding by caring and discipline of hands-on parents of enough of the children who by inherited advantage should have been leaders of their country. The baton has been frequently dropped when passed on to the next generation.

After WWII, the threat of the Soviets and the nuclear bomb also seems to have unhinged the British mind. Combined with aristocratic guilt, this (again IMO) left the country rudderless and tilting into socialism. Any moral and religious, Christian principles that might have helped have been eroding for decades and there hasn’t been enough help there.

It just took a while for things to totally implode.

I’m no historian or sociologist, this is just my personal opinion.

INC on August 18, 2008 at 11:25 PM

I suspect, however, that the main consideration inhibiting elite criticism of MacKeown is that passing judgment would call into question the shibboleths of liberal social policy for the last 50 or 60 years—beliefs that give their proponents a strong sense of moral superiority. It would be to entertain the heretical thought that family structure might matter after all, along with such qualities as self-restraint and self-respect; and that welfare dependency is unjust to those who pay for it and disastrous for those who wind up trapped in it.

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 11:27 PM

INC on August 18, 2008 at 11:25 PM

ok, thanks.

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 11:31 PM

Another brilliant piece from City Journal. Thanks for posting it.

Buy Danish on August 18, 2008 at 11:31 PM

Evan Goodbye? Bambi will most likely take Hillary. It will be dramatic and liberals everywhere will cry together.
And I’ll cry looking at it.

Travis1 on August 18, 2008 at 11:32 PM

Great read, and right on.

Marriage FTW.

TexasDan on August 18, 2008 at 11:45 PM

surrounded, you’re welcome for the thoughts for what they’re worth. I’m just an anglophile who has enjoyed reading English history and English novels over the years.

INC on August 18, 2008 at 11:46 PM

Hmm, it sounds like there is truth still in this: “A mightier power and stronger Man from his throne has hurled, For the hand that rocks the cradle Is the hand that rules the world.” ~W. R. Wallace, 1865
Rather than watching “Supernanny,” whose techniques do little more than manipulate children into doing right without any explanation as to the “why” or considerations of the heart, or reading Cosmo or some other cheap newsstand magazine, I highly recommend “Shepherding a Child’s Heart” by Tedd Tripp. Rather than mindlessly trying to control the actions of children through threat of punishment or reward, whose power will inexorably wear off, Tripp advocates trying to mold the child’s heart. As his website states, “[His books] focus on heart issues rather than performance issues. We all know that it is possible to master some Christian performance skills without experiencing internal change. We long for authentic change that works from the inside out.” Just food for thought for the group.

Send_Me on August 18, 2008 at 11:47 PM

INC on August 18, 2008 at 11:46 PM

I guess i was always an anglophile too. These days, maybe not so much.

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 11:52 PM

Hey, funky chicken … check out the movie Idiocracy for a pretty poignant riff on the situation we face. You’ll laugh till you cry.

Hey, alphie. Yeah, with your typical trenchant analysis you’ve really hit upon the crux of the problem: not enough sex-ed. You would think that a woman who has had seven babies by five different men would have figured out where the babies were coming from even without sex-ed, but maybe not. Dork.

shazbat on August 18, 2008 at 11:53 PM

Send_Me, we heard Tedd Tripp speak years ago on the ideas he had written about in Shepherding a Child’s Heart. He was quite good and the focus on heart issues was truly helpful. You can get kids to conform to the externals when they’re young, but without ongoing dialogue and work on understanding the internal heart and thinking of a child you’ll lose the adult and miss the mark. Our kids are young adults now. The tough work on the internals was and is worth it.

INC on August 18, 2008 at 11:53 PM

I guess i was always an anglophile too. These days, maybe not so much.

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 11:52 PM

Yep, makes me sad. I wonder if “there will always be an England.”

INC on August 18, 2008 at 11:54 PM

I was talking about the high rate of teen pregnancies in Texas, not Britain, shaz.

alphie on August 18, 2008 at 11:55 PM

Oh, really, alphie? I’m sure you were talking about Britain. Right, right. So how is it that the United States’ most famous and embarrassing pregnancy boom happened in one of the most liberal communities in the bluest and most highly educated state in the Union? News flash for you, alphie: These girls weren’t ignorant, and there wasn’t any Bible thumping going on in Gloucester, MA. These girls knew that sex would get them pregnant. That was the effect they were after, and more sex-ed would have done exactly nothing to affect the situation except perhaps to inform the little darlings how they could endeavor to become pregnant more quickly.

shazbat on August 19, 2008 at 12:12 AM

Read weren’t for were.

shazbat on August 19, 2008 at 12:13 AM

One of the most brilliant peices I’ve read dealing with a troubling pattern that, frankly, I see no end in sight.

kyarnes on August 19, 2008 at 12:14 AM

The bible thumpers cutting back funding for sex education seems to have worked out well for us.

alphie on August 18, 2008 at 11:07 PM

Pregnancies have increased with unmarried girls since the inrtroduction of sex education and the introduction of the welfare state.

Johan Klaus on August 19, 2008 at 12:19 AM

One of the most brilliant peices I’ve read dealing with a troubling pattern that, frankly, I see no end in sight.

kyarnes on August 19, 2008 at 12:14 AM

There is a fix. Bring back the traditional family.

Connie on August 19, 2008 at 12:20 AM

And, re: the OT topic:

It appears to be a hoax or a screwup by CNN.

SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 11:07 PM

I just brought up Hillary blogs. Very quiet – for what it’s worth.

Connie on August 19, 2008 at 12:22 AM

It appears to be a hoax or a screwup by CNN.

SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 11:07 PM

…in other words, a poorly-sourced/unsourced, unconfirmed rumor typical of CNN’s standard reporting.

landlines on August 19, 2008 at 12:44 AM

Yep, makes me sad. I wonder if “there will always be an England.”

INC on August 18, 2008 at 11:54 PM

The real England was fatally wounded in 1909, and died in 1945. 1958 saw the first generation of Welfare-bred morons come to the fore. It has been downhill ever since. The Scots revenge.

OldEnglish on August 19, 2008 at 12:52 AM

Interesting column by Prager at Townhall.

If There Is No God

Connie on August 19, 2008 at 1:22 AM

raison d’être

ou non!

Une perte d’une vie, so sad.

Kini on August 19, 2008 at 2:18 AM

Yeah, ……… Gov’t health care, let’s follow the British.

Seven Percent Solution on August 19, 2008 at 2:21 AM

The bible thumpers cutting back funding for sex education seems to have worked out well for us.

alphie on August 18, 2008 at 11:07 PM

By all accounts, one of the countries in your social-democratic showcase is dying, but the best you can manage is to change the subject. I am returning you to it. Bringing up children is just one of the problems faced or, actually, not faced by the peoples of the United Kingdom. Their other problem is even more severe: They’re not having enough children even to replace themselves. Their total fertility was calculated as just 1.7 in 2000. They haven’t been at the replacement rate (2.1) since sometime in the 1970s, and the projections through 2015 and beyond do not suggest any meaningful increase. The peoples of the left-”liberal” U.K. are dying out.

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 2:21 AM

This is what Obama is..

http://i33.tinypic.com/fz91sm.jpg

Click that

Chakra Hammer on August 19, 2008 at 2:24 AM

Ya know? Why is the UK imploding this way? They just don’t seem to care anymore over there. It concerns me. Any teabag regulars care to comment?

surrounded on August 18, 2008 at 10:53 PM

This American Anglophile agrees with those who say the biggest problem is the abandoning of Christianity. In fact I’ll take it back to Henry VIII. Just because he wanted a divorce, England broke away from the Universal Church. That started it all IMO, though as long as basic morality and most basic Christian teachings were still the norm (as they were for centuries) British society could remain fairly healthy.

But look what happens when a church no longer has a magisterium that gives it authority. Like most other Protestant sects, the Church of England went its own way, eventually adopting the fashions of the day, and instead of challenging the norms of society is now trying to accommodate them. The result is an Archbishop who seems to favor sharia law, a church that seems to be doing nothing to call its people back to godly living, and has lost millions of believers over the years.

I hang on to the words of John Paul the Great, who foretold (I think that word is not too strong) a new springtime of faith for the Catholic Church. We are going to see, I think are already starting to see, a movement of people fed up with our permissive society and ready to return to authentic Christian life. That movement will be the spark, perhaps one of many, that will turn things around to a great degree.

I just finished re-reading G.K. Chesterton’s The Everlasting Man (interestingly, this is the book that finally convinced C.S. Lewis of the truth of Christianity), and I was struck by Chesterton’s reading of history – he showed how at least five times over the last two millennia, huge upheavals in society brought about massive changes (at the fall of the Roman Empire, etc.). Yet through all these changes, the Church Jesus Christ founded did not fall, though by all logic it should have.

Through all the centuries when other gods and religions have come and gone, Christianity has remained, sometimes going underground, sometimes seeming to be nothing more than background to chaos and upheaval, but always returning stronger than before. Not for nothing is the Catholic Church the oldest continuous institution in the world. Only the Spirit of God could prevail in such a way – everything else that man has attempted has ended in overthrow or degradation.

Chesterton discusses the Roman Empire as a prime example of the summit of what man could achieve in terms of philosophy, social organization, and in other ways – and yet Rome itself could not stand. But the Church of Rome did.

Sorry I’m going on so long about this, and thanks if you’re still reading! It’s just that it’s becoming clearer and clearer to me that only the work of the Holy Spirit will allow us to overcome the evils of the world.

My hat is off to those agnostics and atheists who uphold morals and standards based solely on their own convictions – I really admire them, because I know I’m too weak to do likewise. And I suspect the same is true for many people. Not that religion is merely our crutch, but that if we didn’t have it we would be much worse as people.

Rosmerta on August 19, 2008 at 2:27 AM

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that the Brits have largely abandoned Christianity. Nature abhors a vacuum.

packsoldier on August 18, 2008 at 11:06 PM

Does the tendency of Christianity to lose the peoples of entire countries and continents suggest that there’s anything wrong with Christianity?

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 2:34 AM

By all accounts

No, by one account…from a shrill little prig, Kralizec

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

Rosmerta on August 19, 2008 at 2:27 AM

I have much the same question for you, Rosmerta. Does the tendency of Roman Catholic Christianity to lose entire peoples to Protestantism, agnosticism, or what-have-you raise the possibility of any significant defect in Roman Catholic Christianity?

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator_detail.cfm?IndicatorID=138&Country=GB

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 2:43 AM

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator.cfm?IndicatorID=138&country=GB#rowGB

Dying.

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 2:45 AM

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=6

Dying.

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 2:49 AM

Does the tendency of Christianity to lose the peoples of entire countries and continents suggest that there’s anything wrong with Christianity?

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 2:34 AM

Not at all. Christianity upholds free will. Would you have it any other way?

Connie on August 19, 2008 at 2:51 AM

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=951

Dying.

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 2:52 AM

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

Over the decade, net inflows of non-British citizens increased substantially, from 127,000 in 1995 to 342,000 by 2004. At the same time, net outflows of British citizens have increased. Net losses of Britons from the UK grew rapidly over the decade, from 17,000 in 1994 to 120,000 in 2004. The largest numbers out-migrating are in the 25 to 44 age group, but since 1999 there has also been a net outflow of British citizens aged 45 to state pension age. In 2003, around two fifths of British citizens out-migrating were moving to other countries in the EU and over one quarter to Australia or New Zealand.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1311

Dying.

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 3:05 AM

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1596985275/

Dying.

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 3:10 AM

Looks like Britain’s population is growing, Kral.

And a link to a “book” by Mark Steyn is an embarrassment to whoever posts it…

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 3:37 AM

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 3:37 AM

Wow…you are an incredible moron. I hate ad hominems, but you have nothing to back up what you say. Go back to DKos or DU, please.

Connie on August 19, 2008 at 3:52 AM

Not at all. Christianity upholds free will.

Connie on August 19, 2008 at 2:51 AM
Many people uphold many things. Do continent-wide, lemming-like migrations of wills toward the Faith and, later, away from the Faith prompt any questions about the freedom of wills? Can faith in free will lead one to overlook evidence of problems with that doctrine, or are wills free from influence by faith? Do my questions cause any doubts, or are wills free from influence by questions?

I think the tendency of millions of people to get up and wander away from the Faith, in massive movements, is a problem for the intelligent and inquisitive Faithful, especially if “wills” are “free.”

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 4:09 AM

alphie on August 19, 2008 at 3:37 AM

Demography is more than a headcount. The distribution of the populace by age is inverted. Those older people will die, not having replaced themselves. Already, the uteri are shriveling. Such young English, Welsh, Scots, and Irish as there are have begun an outward migration. The U.K. is dying, alphie, and all my embarrassment over my poor reading recommendations is having no effect. “What good is utopia, if it only lasts a generation?”

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 4:29 AM

One must educate the young in the ways of making a living.

One must also educate the young in how to live.

When the first surpasses the second, you end up with what UK is facing today.

Cultural dilution, a floating value system, non-judgementalism negating the rule of law, balkanization of culture, and a youth lost to any sense of right or wrong, any sense that any of this life we have makes any sense at all.

Materialism? That is just a symptom. Rampant teen pregnancy? Just a symptom. Widespread drug use? Simply another symptom.

One education to make a living.

The other education to know how to live.

Seems in UK, and here in America as well, most just have not allowed themselves to see it yet, in our efforts to educate our young in how to make a living, we have neglected to teach our children how to live.

In this, we have imperiled our nation, and their future.

coldwarrior on August 19, 2008 at 7:57 AM

The linked article begins with this:

Britain is the worst country in the Western world in which to be a child, according to a recent UNICEF report.

This UNICEF report is from February, 2007, which is not exactly recent. Here is the report. As you can see, we are very lucky to live in the great US of A, because we are the second worst country in the Western world in which to be a child! Awesome!

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dave742 on August 19, 2008 at 8:57 AM

When Newsmax wrote an article on this UNICEF report, even they acknowledged that the US was last on the list along with the UK:

[The UK] scored a little better for education but languished in the bottom third for all other measures, giving it the lowest overall placing, along with the United States.

It must have been difficult to find a source even more intellectually dishonest than Newsmax.

dave742 on August 19, 2008 at 9:12 AM

The UNICEF report card referred to in the linked article is Report Card number 7. Report card number 1 had to do with infant mortality rates. Out of the 32 industrialized countries measured, the great US of A came in 28th in infant mortality, beating Estonia, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland. Awesome. Millennium goals are given for what level each country is supposed to achieve by the year 2015. Each country has a different target. The target for the US is the second lowest for the industrialized nations. I guess the world doesn’t expect much nor ask much from the US.

Haaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dave742 on August 19, 2008 at 9:41 AM

dave742 on August 19, 2008 at 9:41 AM

It sounds like you are not a fan of the U.S.A..

Johan Klaus on August 19, 2008 at 10:04 AM

Johan Klaus:
I need reasons to support something other than being a member of that “in-group.” I will not support the US for the reason that most people do (because they live here). This doesn’t work for me.
Should I be a fan of the US because the US provides a better life for children than the UK? This seems silly when you look at the whole picture and realize that the US is 20th out of 21 countries.

dave742 on August 19, 2008 at 10:21 AM

If another Churchill or Thatcher came along, would enough British people have the good sense to vote for him/her?

Steve Z on August 19, 2008 at 2:39 PM

I’d be willing to bet that if the US comes in 20th out of 21 countries, it all boils down to two causes. Illegal immigration and drug-addicted or unwed mothers. Without those two factors, where would the US come in on that list?

Bonus question. Would the beliefs and leanings (if fully implemented) of Alphie and Dave make these two problems worse or better?

trigon on August 19, 2008 at 4:10 PM

I have much the same question for you, Rosmerta. Does the tendency of Roman Catholic Christianity to lose entire peoples to Protestantism, agnosticism, or what-have-you raise the possibility of any significant defect in Roman Catholic Christianity?

Kralizec on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 AM

It definitely shows a defect in Roman Catholic Christians, Kralizec – I’m very sorry to have to say. I’m amazed no one has brought up the child molesters yet. It’s all too true that evils and indifference are still part of us, even when we’ve embraced a faith. I fully sympathize with those who feel driven away by the hypocrisies they see, because they’re all too real at times.

I think, though, that if you look back through history (as I remember from Chesterton’s book, once again) the Church has also been renewed from within, many times. The breakaways have been the sensational events everyone remembers, because they’ve resulted in new sects. It’s harder to see the work of those who renewed the faith in keeping it united – look at the great work of one of our greatest philosophers and theologians,St. Athanasius, as in the fourth century he defeated the teachings of Arianism (that Jesus was not fully divine). This was a struggle that rocked the church of the day, yet it’s barely remembered now and probably unknown to most Catholics … all because Athanasius succeeded in keeping the Church united.

Rosmerta on August 19, 2008 at 4:51 PM

In fact, St. Athanasius is such a hero of mine that I’ve dreamed of naming a son after him – but wouldn’t that be a terrible name to saddle a kid with! :D

Rosmerta on August 19, 2008 at 4:54 PM

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