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Putin puppet: Georgia cannot go “unpunished”; Update: Russian navy to “visit” Venezuela

posted at 3:56 pm on August 18, 2008 by Allahpundit
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No word yet on what the punishment might entail, but placing short-range ballistic missiles aimed at Tbilisi in South Ossetia may offer a clue. Oddly enough, the withdrawal that they promised would begin today doesn’t yet seem to involve much actual withdrawal. The Times reports Russian tanks smashing through Georgian police barricades and lounging beside the highway to the capital, but the Telegraph says it’s worse than that:

An American defence official said that Russia was actually sending more troops to South Ossetia and another pro-Russian enclave in Abkhazia.

“We’re seeing them solidify their positions,” the official was quoted as saying…

There was little sign of redeployment from other major towns like Kaspi, Zugdidi and Senaki that have fallen under effective Russian occupation. Six Russian checkpoints blocked the route to the strategic town of Gori where Russian officers prevented journalists from entering to monitor the withdrawal…

Despite US pleas to Mr Medvedev to keep his word after reneging on earlier promises to withdraw, there were further signs that Russia was preparing to bolster its forces in Georgia.

A battalion of Russia’s 76th Guards Airborne Division was moved from Pskov to Beslam, a few miles on the Russian side of the Georgian border.

The confusion here may have to do with the wording of that EU-backed ceasefire that Sarkozy seems so proud of. We didn’t commit to “withdrawal,” claims one Russian diplomat, merely to a “pullback,” diplo-speak for saying that when they do get around to leaving they’re going to occupy South Ossetia, not retreat all the way back to Russia’s borders. What may be the most important detail in all of this, though, is buried in the last sentence of the Telegraph piece, describing Ukrainian alarm at reports of Russian passports being handed out in Crimea. Why’s that significant? Because, per the Times of London, Russia’s been flooding South Ossetia with bogus Russian passports for awhile now to stake its claim to the territory. It’s a Sudetenland strategy, in other words, based on reunification of “ethnic” citizens with the mother country, and it has regional implications:

At the start of the war, Mr Medvedev said it was his constitutional right to defend the “lives and dignity” of Russian citizens, and Georgia’s allies fear that Russia will now begin to throw its weight around in defence of the millions of ethnic Russians who live outside Russia.

The break-up of the Soviet Union left a huge Russian diaspora outside the country. There are more than 8 million ethnic Russians in Ukraine, 4.5 million in Kazakhstan and 1.2 million in the Baltic states.

Russia justified its attack on Georgia as a way of protecting the 90 per cent of South Ossetians who have Russian passports.

How many of the passports are genuine is another question, as the region was infamous for smuggling and counterfeit passports and dollars. Yevgeniya Latynina, a columnist, wrote last week that when the South Ossetian President, Eduard Kokoity, received his passport, he opened it to find that it contained the picture of Abraham Lincoln from the $5 note instead of his own photograph.

NATO’s meeting tomorrow, with some sort of suspension of diplomatic relations on the docket and maybe sanctions. Exit question: Will they actually do anything, or are we in for another stern warning/statement of concern?

Update: Oh good, they want to play in our backyard now. Starring Vladimir Putin as Khrushchev, Hugo Chavez as Castro, and as JFK…

President Hugo Chavez said on Sunday that Russian President Dimitri Medvedev wants to send a Russian naval fleet to visit Venezuela.

“Russia has informed us they intend to visit Venezuela, that is, the intention that a Russian fleet should come to the Caribbean,” Chavez said on his weekly radio program.

“I told the president (Medvedev), ‘If you’re coming to the Caribbean, we’ll welcome you,’” Chavez said, adding that the Russian naval fleet would pay “a friendly and working” visit to Venezuela…

“We very much need them here,” Chavez said of the Russian weapons. “We’ve got the helicopters, the Sukoi fighters and we’re now considering buying some Russian submarines to patrol our territorial waters,” Chavez said.


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Comment pages: 1 2

Ukraine, welcome to NATO.

rbj on August 18, 2008 at 6:23 PM

Esthier on August 18, 2008 at 6:11 PM

There were German pirates until Hamburg destroyed them.

I did not feel like writing a long response about America’s role and motivation in both World Wars and the Dean Scream seemed like a highly appropriate example of inappropriate overconfidence.

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 6:23 PM

Its always interesting…

SteveMG on Aug 18,2008 at 6:10PM.

SteveMG: Steve,I can’t speak on behalf of Canada!

I went to a friends birthday party last
night,and brought Georgia up,other than
me,(sigh)I got a look of,uh,whats happening
in Georgia!

Everybody is more caught up in their little
worlds,I’m 50,I remember living under Russians
nuclear threat,the younger generation doesn’t
have a clue about world history,especially the
last 50 years!

canopfor on August 18, 2008 at 6:24 PM

a capella on August 18, 2008 at 6:22 PM

I would feel sad if German troops were pulling their weight and actually contributed to the success of a foreign nation that keeps degrading and destroying ours to this day. No, I am not talking about Afghanistan.

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 6:28 PM

the Dean Scream seemed like a highly appropriate example of inappropriate overconfidence.

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 6:23 PM

Really? I thought it was just an example of Dean’s douchebaggery.

Esthier on August 18, 2008 at 6:28 PM

SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 6:17 PM

Not bad suggestions. They make sense.

I’ll readily admit that I’m not looking forward to a war over Georgia, but I hope whatever we do there will not make us look weak.

And a nice bonus would be if it made Putin look as miserable as he truly is.

upinak on August 18, 2008 at 6:17 PM

Depp with a clean cut look… that is original.

a capella on August 18, 2008 at 6:22 PM

And he’s already taken your bait with that one.

Esthier on August 18, 2008 at 6:32 PM

Esthier on August 18, 2008 at 6:28 PM

That would mean I was calling pseudonominus a douchebag of Deanish proportions and that can’t be right, because I am a very polite person.

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 6:33 PM

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 6:28 PM

Ah, you’re talking about Germany then.

Esthier on August 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM

Another German pirate.

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 6:36 PM

Putin’s Punish List:

1) Georgia–done
2) Ukraiane–
3) Poland–
4) Hungary–
5) Rumania–
6) Lithuania–
7) Latvia–
8) Estonia–
9) to ?_______________ (fill in blank)

sdd on August 18, 2008 at 4:03 PM

……………………………………….The North Pole?

Seven Percent Solution on August 18, 2008 at 6:36 PM

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 6:33 PM

I’m sure you are, but I didn’t take it as you calling anyone anything. It just sounded like you were using it for yourself.

It’s true though. We Americans are arrogant. It’s hard not to be when you live in such an awesome country with such privilege and power.

I mean one of our candidates for president just got treated like a rock star abroad. I don’t like Obama, but it sure did nothing to calm my big, fat American ego.

Esthier on August 18, 2008 at 6:37 PM

What is the Canadian press saying about this? And does the public blame Bush (e.g., his support for Georgia)?
SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 6:10 PM

Most on the CBC comment site blame the US. We are hypocrites because of Iraq. (I guess those 12 years of diplomacy and UN sanctions were nothing.)
One interesting analogy on Quebec and the US – if those were the regions involved what would Canada do? Fair number of anti-west extreme nationalist Russian names on the comment site.

NaCly dog on August 18, 2008 at 6:39 PM

Ah, you’re talking about Germany then.

Esthier on August 18, 2008 at 6:35 PM

Clever, but I said ‘foreign nation’. Germany is not foreign to me, not at all.

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 6:40 PM

Another German pirate.

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 6:36 PM

You can have him. He went nuts long ago.

Esthier on August 18, 2008 at 6:40 PM

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 6:40 PM

Sorry. Stupid joke.

Esthier on August 18, 2008 at 6:42 PM

And, look at the good fortune former PM Gerald Shroeder encountered upon leaving office. I mean, being a top executive and Putin toady in Gazprom ain’t exactly small potatoes. That’s what Germany stands for today, right? Nothing there that is degrading to the country.

a capella on August 18, 2008 at 6:45 PM

I mean one of our candidates for president just got treated like a rock star abroad. I don’t like Obama, but it sure did nothing to calm my big, fat American ego.

Esthier on August 18, 2008 at 6:37 PM

Most people are easily tricked by the salvation ideology of liberalism that the US keeps forcing on previously unwilling peoples once they are in its sphere of influence. No US president legitimately represents the German people and the only change to be expected is in the name of this Napoléon.

Unfortunately, the United States of France have taken great care to limit our ability to shake off their benevolent domination (it’s all for the sake of liberté, egalité and fraternité) and we will have to cooperate with otherwise untrustworthy creatures to make it happen. I, for one, welcome our new Nord Stream pipeline that Schröder is still working on.

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 7:01 PM

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 7:01 PM

Interesting. When I was in Germany, I do not remember ever forcing liberalism on anyone. If i remember right, Socialism was shoved down my throat… while asking for my euro’s.

upinak on August 18, 2008 at 7:17 PM

We didn’t commit to “withdrawal,” claims one Russian diplomat, merely to a “pullback,” diplo-speak for saying that when they do get around to leaving they’re going to occupy South Ossetia, not retreat all the way back to Russia’s borders.

I wonder where they learned this trick from? (We are only supposed to withdraw “from territories occupied,” not “from the territories occupied”.)
If it’s good enough for Israel, it’s good enough for Russia.

Just kidding. I know there’s a difference. Israel is good and Russia is evil.

dave742 on August 18, 2008 at 7:24 PM

As sure as I am sitting & spouting here, Russia is out to form an Axis of Oil with Hugo and the Mullahs. We must drill and fast. And then mock the Russians for making themselves a suburb of Bejing.

dhimwit on August 18, 2008 at 7:59 PM

Can you say “President McCain”?

franklinstein on August 18, 2008 at 8:26 PM

Putin in best Dean immitation: “We are going to Georgia, then we are going to Ukraiane, Poland, Hungary, Romania, and we are going to take back Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia. YyyyeeeeeeeeeAAAAAHHHH…”

1) Georgia–done
2) Ukraiane–
3) Poland–
4) Hungary–
5) Rumania–
6) Lithuania–
7) Latvia–
8) Estonia–
9) to ?_______________ (fill in blank)

sdd on August 18, 2008 at

Sir Napsalot on August 18, 2008 at 8:28 PM

So the Russian fleet wants to sail to Venezuela?

Gee, it’d be a real shame if it were to sink because it hit an “iceburg” and unfortunately there were no survivors.

Sydney Carton on August 18, 2008 at 8:28 PM

Much as it pains me to dismiss an ally like Georgia, and agree with much of the sentiments regarding Putin’s ambitions, I have to agree with SteveMG.

We were simply outmaneuvered here. We committed ourselves to an alliance with Georgia we could not enforce, and one we do not have immediate access to, but Russia does. Putin picked his target carefully, and conducted a classic Sudetenland approach, and did so under ours and Georgia’s notice. South Ossetia is about 2/3rds ethnically Russian, and they want to break away to join North Ossetia (although not Russia – the Ossetians want their own splinter republic). Georgia since the fall of the Soviet Union has considered South Ossetia and Abkhazia part of itself, but in fact both areas are functionally independent. However, as they are also the only central asian Soviet breakway to put themselves into order and go for democracy, we backed their efforts. Recently that included a visit from Bush, and a fair bit of military aid and training – they then eagerly volunteered troops to serve in Iraq. What better place to get Georgian soldiers true combat experience and cement themselves in the affections of the US?

As they grew more powerful militarily though, the South Ossetians and Abkhazians have become increasingly restive; both fear that a more powerful Georgia would seek to reassert control over them, and the Georgians have made their intent clear in those regards. The Georgians cannot simply allow South Ossetia and Abkhazia to secede, because it would shatter their country and sense of identity, while the South Ossetians and Abkhazians have been functionally separate for a decade, and have no desire to submit again.

It was a perfect setup: Putin makes sure Russian passports and ID become common as grass in both regions, and provide weapons to South Ossetian guerrillas. Russia further encourages the South Ossentians to more boldness – and they’ve been striking targets outside of their borders for some time now. The Georgians can’t afford this, nor tolerate it, and retaliate. Russia manages to strong-arm the UN into allowing them, as a “neutral third party” to deploy peacekeepers into South Ossetia. Now we come to a few weeks ago, where the Georgians decide they’d had enough provocation, and belief they’re strong enough to seize South Ossetia and pacify it for good (the Georgians are democratic and allies – but don’t let us be deluded into thinking they take the same view of “pacify” as we do). They probably are right, but they bank on their US support to keep the Bear at bay.

They’re wrong. Putin understands that we literally cannot intervene directly, so he takes fullest advantage. At the first attack on South Ossetia, Russia’s government goes up in arms over civilian casualties (as though they gave a flying shat when they leveled Grozny), many of whom are technically Russian citizens, according to their passports. What’s more, Russian peacekeepers are killed. By this time, Putin has already had a pair of mechanized brigades on the border just waiting for this – on cue, both roll into South Ossetia to “restore peace against Georgian aggression”. The Georgians, overconfident in their capabilities, attempt to hold their gains, and get plastered. Their artillery however is firing from outside the Ossetian border – so Russia says to the international community, “terribly sorry, but looks like we’ll have to secure a ‘buffer’ to preserve peace.” Cue the continued advance.

In one ten-year maneuver, Russia has reconquered part of a former satellite, made the US eat crow, and given his country a short, victorious war… which he’ll need to ensure support for his next military adventure.

And the US can’t do anything about Georgia. Logistically we can’t deploy troops there remotely as quickly as Russia can, and we can’t provide our insurmountable airpower so long as the surrounding nations decide they don’t want us staging from them. They live a lot closer to the Bear than we do. Also, don’t underestimate what the Russian military is capable of: I see people here bringing up Iraq as an example. Don’t. The Iraqis in both wars fought with Arab tactics, not Russian doctrine (an Arab tactics involve a lot more ululating and a lot more spray-and-pray, and a lot less skill), and were fielding outdated Soviet export models (which have nothing on the T-72’s and T-80’s Russia can field, just as export M1’s have nothing on US operated Abrams’).

I suspect Bush is already looking to the next round: eastern Europe. Russia has already built a pipeline directly to Germany, bypassing Poland via the North Sea (which enables them to destroy Poland’s economy without antagonizing the rest of Europe, if need be). The Ukraine is on the list, but it’s large, and the Western part is decidedly anti-Russian… they also have a considerable leftover nuclear arsenal, and the Ruskies know it. So Bush is pushing ahead with the missile defense shield (useless against a full Russian salvo, but enough to poke a thumb in their eye).

We cannot logistically support Georgia. But we sure as hell can support eastern Europe.

E1701 on August 18, 2008 at 8:30 PM

We cannot logistically support Georgia. But we sure as hell can support eastern Europe.

Hear, hear.

My point much, much better argued.

It’s us two against 10,000 now. We’ve got a chance.

SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 8:33 PM

SteveMG on August 18, 2008 at 8:33 PM

You do have a point that current will in the West means we can do little as defined by the Russians. So down all of Georgia goes. Raped by the Russians. Treated as the test case on US not supporting the allies.

I am going to respectfully disagree that the Ukraine is where we should draw the line if Georgia is unsuitable.

The main advantages Georgia has over Ukraine:

Resupply lines can be interdicted.
Narrow front based on Russian advances.
Population focused and entirely anti-Russian.
Next to a long-time NATO ally.
Better sooner than later.

Russia is already acting to split the loyalties of Ukraine. Both the Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea are heavily pro-Russian.
No interdiction of supply lines.
Many axis of attack to defend.

I may sound a bit bellicose, but time may not be our friend.
Russian troop quality is improving as they stop relying on conscripts.
Every year there is more money and experience in the Russian arms industry.
President Obama.

Poland is where to draw the line. IMHO

NaCly dog on August 18, 2008 at 8:53 PM

I offered a few, OK, a bunch, long tired posts about economic warfare as a more viable alternative to conventional warfare (and less costly to the US in young men and women who would have to fight) and if you want to cruise the archives, well, it is a Monday night…pretty slow…

But, anyway, to add some fresh meat to the economic warfare idea, to get back to economic warfare…seems Putin’s Russia is well engaged in exactly that vis-a-vis Europe. (This article from a year ago.)

A very interesting article from the Wilson Center, here.

Another on the subject…what we can do. Looking at the most basic theoretical level how we could craft a policy that would cut to the heart of Putin’s strength.

And this short piece about Putin’s weaknesses, weaknesses that are out of his control.

In essence, there is more than one way to beard the lion.

coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 9:27 PM

freevillage’s silence just echoes…

MadisonConservative on August 18, 2008 at 10:26 PM

Uh, oh,,, Trouble in Ukraine Putin is working his divisive mischief.

onlineanalyst on August 18, 2008 at 11:09 PM

onlineanalyst on August 18, 2008 at 11:09 PM –

Seems that Brutus line from Julius Caesar Act 4, scene 3,

“There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.”

Is most appropriate today.

coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 11:43 PM

And this…

coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 11:46 PM

CW: You cannot imagine how upset I am by the developments in Russia’s aggression.

Meanwhile, idiots a swooning over the absolute zero Obama. Pelosi is crowing about him when what Obama really needs is to have his ears pinned back and his clock cleaned.

I want responsible adults at the helm, not some vacuum who needs training wheels.

onlineanalyst on August 19, 2008 at 12:10 AM

Well, after the events of the past week or so, I think the Anthropological Society should make a visit to Russia. After all, they’ve been looking for the “missing link” for a long time – and there it is, right under their noses.

OldEnglish on August 19, 2008 at 12:30 AM

onlineanalyst on August 19, 2008 at 12:10 AM –

That feeling is mutual…we are playing at the adult table now, and the idiots demand to put a kid out thre.

One generation that can barely read or write, but they sure can rally around a slogan, oh, yes, they can.

coldwarrior on August 19, 2008 at 1:01 AM

The best analysis and response I’ve read comes from Krathammer.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/13/AR2008081303365.html

diogenes on August 19, 2008 at 2:54 AM

In essence, there is more than one way to beard the lion.

coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 9:27 PM

I totally agree with you that there are different paths to this crisis. In the long run, economic warfare is a winner. Russia does not develop the skills of it’s population, has staggering demographic problems, and doesn’t get innovation–> development –> marketing cycles. 90% of Russia’s export worth is in extractive materials.

Economic warfare is long run. Many people can be killed in the mean time. I think of what we can do now, because to start yanking economic levers dooms Georgia and possibly Ukraine.

Conventional scenarios in Georgia are becoming more and more improbable, anyway. I hope the Eurcom ops staffs are updating some con plans. I doubt anything clever will come out of the State Dept. We have been outmaneuvered, this time.

NaCly dog on August 19, 2008 at 6:29 AM

NaCly dog on August 19, 2008 at 6:29 AM –

The two paths are not mutually exclusive.

We can and should embark on a measured economic warfare against the Putin regime.

We can and should establish a solid footprint on the ground…a deterent force in Georgia and Ukraine, Poland, the Baltics, Kazakhstan.

I am trying to find the study from a few years back, where shutting down imports and exports from Russian for 90 days can cripple their cash flow. Render their economy on par with Chad.

coldwarrior on August 19, 2008 at 8:19 AM

As Krauthammer argues (yeah, I’m doing a “I told you so”):

What is to be done? Let’s be real. There’s nothing to be done militarily. What we can do is alter Putin’s cost-benefit calculations.

And this key observation:

The most crucial and unconditional measure, however, is this: Reaffirm support for the Saakashvili government and declare that its removal by the Russians would lead to recognition of a government-in-exile. This would instantly be understood as providing us the legal basis for supplying and supporting a Georgian resistance to any Russian-installed regime.

Russia wants to Finlandize its neighbors. Removing the Saakashvili government would greatly increase the chances of them succeeding. Again.

We need, as Krauthammer shows, to prevent this even if it means recognizing them in exile.

Simply put, right now, we have no military options in Georgia.

SteveMG on August 19, 2008 at 9:18 AM

Most people are easily tricked by the salvation ideology of liberalism that the US keeps forcing on previously unwilling peoples once they are in its sphere of influence.

That’s funny. Over here our liberals keep complaining that we’re not more like the people and governments on your side of the world.

I’d certainly agree with the first half of your statement. People, no matter their country, tend to fall for that tripe, specifically those with nothing to lose for trying.

Esthier on August 19, 2008 at 9:20 AM

Most people are easily tricked by the salvation ideology of liberalism that the US keeps forcing on previously unwilling peoples once they are in its sphere of influence. No US president legitimately represents the German people and the only change to be expected is in the name of this Napoléon.

GermanAtheist on August 18, 2008 at 7:01 PM

Not to worry. From now on, Germany will be run by EU bureacrats in Belgium who know what is really best. Europe will be one big, happy family, marching to the tune of it’s puppeteers. No more pride of country or cultural differences,..just make sure the elite few are satisfied. It is probably for the best,..now individual countries won’t have to make difficult decisions for themselves. Big Brother knows best.

a capella on August 19, 2008 at 10:10 AM

Esthier on August 19, 2008 at 9:20 AM

I am referring to the definition of liberalism used in Straussian philosophy, a public order based on the rights of the individual. This can be applied to both personal and economic matters. Economic liberalism in particular is the driving force of transnationalism.

a capella on August 19, 2008 at 10:10 AM

Not to worry. From now on, America will be run by bureacrats in Washington who know what is really best. America will be one big, happy family, marching to the tune of it’s puppeteers. No more pride of folk or cultural differences,..just make sure the elite few are satisfied. It is probably for the best,..now individual states won’t have to make difficult decisions for themselves. Big Brother knows best.

GermanAtheist on August 19, 2008 at 11:16 AM

I can’t get rid of the suspicion that the EU bosses wouldn’t particularly mind being Moscow’s jr partners, as long as, bitte, s’il vous plait, would you be so kind as to, let us keep our big offices and our perks. Would the ordinary European even notice?

dhimwit on August 19, 2008 at 11:19 AM

I am referring to the definition of liberalism used in Straussian philosophy, a public order based on the rights of the individual.

Of course you are. Pardon me. For a moment I thought you were being level-headed.

It’s nearly inconceivable for me to believe that any thought based on individual rights is liberal. Nothing is more fundamental to our country, though I can understand that the opposite is true of yours.

As to the second half of your comment, it will never happen in this country, precisely for the reasons I wrote above. Unlike European countries, we’re not trying the latest fad in government. Though we stray from time to time, we’ve stuck to our Constitution, and as true Americans, we’re armed to the teeth to ensure we continue to do so in the future.

Esthier on August 19, 2008 at 11:39 AM

It’s nearly inconceivable for me to believe that any thought based on individual rights is liberal. Nothing is more fundamental to our country, though I can understand that the opposite is true of yours.

Esthier on August 19, 2008 at 11:39 AM

I am glad that you can understand this, the next step is to respect it and stop this foolhardy quest for universalist transnationalism aka ’spreading freedom’. It is killing our nations and our people and we won’t ever fight for this nonsense, because we do not intend to die.

America can mitigate the destructive effects through a modified form of gay recruitment among Mexicans, designating foreigners as Europeans on the other hand is a meaningless exercise that can not preserve our people.

It amazes me that American conservatives try to paint the EU as the great antagonist in a meaningless struggle between political nuances. Its anti-European, anti-nationalist policies are merely a reflection of the agenda set by our big brother across the ocean.

GermanAtheist on August 19, 2008 at 12:05 PM

GermanAtheist on August 19, 2008 at 12:05 PM

Too late! The Brussels Brotherhood has decided EU countries don’t need citizen participation a second time to ratify the final version. That will all be done by elites who know what is best. No use trying to deny your relief at being able to have someone else handle the tough parts on this. Get those pesky opponents of ratification away from the decision making process. It’ll be fun watching the EU military capability develop. Better hurry,..the Bear is coming.

a capella on August 19, 2008 at 12:25 PM

Better hurry,..the Bear is coming.

a capella on August 19, 2008 at 12:25 PM

Keep your story straight, America has given extra trustworthy security guarantees to Poland. How is the Bear coming if the integrity of Speedbumpland is protected by the strength of America’s moral fibre?

GermanAtheist on August 19, 2008 at 1:03 PM

the next step is to respect it and stop this foolhardy quest for universalist transnationalism aka ’spreading freedom’.

Democrat talking points are really fairly useless here. Last time I checked, America wasn’t all the interested in changing your country. So long as your country isn’t a threat, we’ve really no reason to care.

Of course I personally believe the world would be a better place if others would simply be more like us, but what’s “freedom” worth if it’s forced on others?

Anyone who wants to force freedom on someone else doesn’t understand the meaning of the words.

Esthier on August 19, 2008 at 2:21 PM

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