Putin ordered ethnic cleansing: Times of London
posted at 9:05 am on August 18, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Vladimir Putin apparently ordered the Russian Army to drive Georgians out of the city of Gori, as soldiers forced the evacuation of the strategic Georgian city. Russian soldiers told Gori residents that they had orders to kill anyone who remained — and demonstrated their seriousness by randomly shooting residents, according to the Times of London:
“The soldiers told us they had an order from Putin – leave or be killed.” Manana Dioshvili showed no emotion as she described how Russian troops forced her to flee her home. Her former neighbours nodded in agreement, huddled together in a kindergarten whose windows had been blown out by a Russian bomb.
“That’s how they explained themselves to us,” she recalled of the moment they fled the ethnic Georgian village of Kurta, near the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali.
“They said, ‘Putin has given us an order that everyone must be either shot or forced to leave’. They told us we should ask the Americans for help now because they would kill us if we stayed.”
Vardo Babutidze, 79, was not lucky enough to be visited by Russian soldiers. Her husband Georgi, 85, was shot twice through the chest by an Ossetian paramilitary who came to their house to demand weapons.
Tony Halpin reports that refugees from Gori tell the same story, over and over again. The Russians committed a war crime in Gori, driving Georgians out of the city and even now not allowing the police to return. They murdered unarmed civilians for not complying with these orders, and one has to wonder whether the Russians fear the police will start producing evidence of their crimes.
Meanwhile, the Georgian government claims that the Russians have expanded their presence in Georgia since the latest cease-fire agreement was signed. Armored patrols have come closer to Tbilisi, and they have given no assurances that Russian tanks will not enter the Georgian capital. However, later the Russians claimed to be exiting Gori and Georgia altogether:
Russia said its troops began withdrawing from the conflict zone in Georgia on Monday, including the strategic central city of Gori, “according to the peace plan” that sought to end fighting has reignited Cold War tensions.
The statement by Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn came amid uncertainty about whether Russia was fulfilling its promise to begin the pullout Monday. He said troops were pulling back to South Ossetia — the breakaway region at the heart of the fighting — and to an unspecified security zone.
Earlier in the day, Russian forces around Gori appeared to be solidifying their positions.
When they do finally withdraw — if they finally withdraw — the international community needs to catalogue the crimes of the Russians in Georgia, in order to show the world the real face of Putin, Medvedev, and the Russian Army.
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Clearly something for the Useless Nitwits to investigate.
TooTall on August 18, 2008 at 9:10 AM
And then what?
ballz2wallz on August 18, 2008 at 9:11 AM
Oh, don’t worry. I’m sure the Georgians asked for it. Isn’t that what people have been saying since this thing started? Just like they used to say before the Holocaust?
Seriously, Putin and his little group o’ thugs need to be made accountable for this and many other incidents. But let’s face facts, that ain’t going to happen.
mjk on August 18, 2008 at 9:12 AM
The Russians are attempting to provoke Georgian forces into breaking the ‘cease fire’ agreement. Once that happens, Russia will occupy all of Georgia, and install a government sympathetic to Russian interests.
There are other reports that Russian forces have set fire to forest land, and wheat fields, and damaged a railway bridge. If the Russians do leave, there won’t be much left but ruins.
rockhauler on August 18, 2008 at 9:12 AM
Poppycock! We were reliably told by Russian news sources that it was the Georgians viciously slaughtering the South Ossetians! The motherland never lies! The Russians were just…um…peace keeping!
Yeah, that’s the ticket.
War crimes tribunal. NOW.
MadisonConservative on August 18, 2008 at 9:15 AM
Absolutely, completely, and totally, nothing. And they know it.
Rod on August 18, 2008 at 9:18 AM
While I don’t doubt that Putin is up to no good, several aspects of this story have my B.S. detector pinging. Specifically:
(1) a Russian infantryman saying “Putin ordered us to kill you or drive you out of the city” (Putin doesn’t order individual soldiers to do anything–the army officer corps do);
(2) A soldier allegedly shooting an 85 year old man during an alleged “weapons check” while his 79 year old wife watched (a little over the top); and
(3) Another Russian soldier telling someone to “get help from the Americans” (how transparent a cry for help is that?)
The Russians have done enough bad things in this Georgia crisis that we don’t need to go over the top in terms of unquestioningly passing along propaganda. Remember, we had this propaganda used against us (Haditha) and it wasn’t funny then either.
Outlander on August 18, 2008 at 9:18 AM
Old Europe is having to confront reality. It is a first step. I think the Brits may be a little out in front on this. they still have some unfinished business with Ivan regarding that polonium poisoning.
a capella on August 18, 2008 at 9:18 AM
and to the Leftards nothing wrong here with Putin, he can only do this because “we invaded Iraq” and its Bush who should stand War Crime trials.
idiots
jp on August 18, 2008 at 9:19 AM
When they do finally withdraw — if they finally withdraw — the international community needs to catalogue the crimes of the Russians in Georgia, in order to show the world the real face of Putin, Medvedev, and the Russian Army.
And then what?
ballz2wallz on August 18, 2008 at 9:11 AM
Good point. There will be no consequences.
matthewbit07 on August 18, 2008 at 9:19 AM
No surprise here at all.
This is Putin, raw and undistilled, unnuanced. He has been telegraphing this openly since his second term as President, even moreso since he locked in his Prime Minsiter for Life position.
He is Tsar Vladimir I…without the royal trappings. Plain as day.
The big question is what are we going to do about it?
Putin is exercising power, real power, and using fear, our fear, using our lack of understanding and using our failure to recognize the threat.
Question was raised on another thread a couple days ago…why now? Why now? Because he can. Just because he can. No nuance there.
Recognize it. Or be prepared to live with it.
coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 9:22 AM
As if.
Yes, “the international community” should, but they will not make a list of legitimate gripes against Russia, nor will they check it twice before Christmas.
We would. Subsequently, the international community will argue against intervention and against the ugly American global police mentality that rocks the boat of ‘let things go’ because the international community is stuck in the rut of irrational irresponsibility, gloating within the moment so long as THEIR individual borders are intact. Marxist mentality: so long as I’m not one, to hell with victims.
It’s a challenge to respect leaders who placate, assuage and enable evil. There is no justification for excuses. The beast has broken through the gates and doors to maul victims and strip survivors of all.
maverick muse on August 18, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Well that’s a war crime.
We can look forward to the International Criminal Court
at the Hague arresting Putin and bringing him to Brussels
for justice.
Remember, the ICC? Nobody is above International Law they
said.
Go on Brussels. Go get that Putin. Put him on trial.
I’d call for the death sentence, but oh yeah, you’re
Europeans and you don’t support that.
Life imprisonment will have to do then – no possibility of
parole.
Go Brussels, go, go, go.
davem on August 18, 2008 at 9:27 AM
Folks… been sayin this since about day 3 of this…
This is a Medieval Punishment Raid. Its been done time and again throughout history, and is a clearly defined Act of War… We even did it to ourselves during the Civil War with Sherman’s “March to the Sea” campagin when the burned a 60 mile wide swath of destruction though the South… looting and burning everything in their path…
It will be interesting to see how the “World Community” looks at this…
Meanwhile… on another front, a US Soldier who was in a combat zone, and got out, is now in a US CIVILIAN court on Manslaughter charges for what he did overseas while in the Army… Really REALLY bad precedent here folks.
Kind of shows slightly differing standards, don’t ya think?
Romeo13 on August 18, 2008 at 9:29 AM
Putin is the equivalent of a mafia don
jp on August 18, 2008 at 9:31 AM
As I said on the first thread about this attack, this is Europe’s problem. They either sort it out so that no further invasions take place, or they suffer the same fate at a time and place of Russia’s choosing.
America cannot take this on while, in the background, there are other rogue regimes waiting for their chance to take a bite.
OldEnglish on August 18, 2008 at 9:43 AM
at the LRC(lew rockwell) blog:
moron
geez I don’t like these nuts.
jp on August 18, 2008 at 9:47 AM
I’m sure fear of the wrath of Condi will force the russians to flee..
*snicker*
right4life on August 18, 2008 at 9:50 AM
Ethnic Cleansing?
Lets face it, we have some cleansing needing to be done here, except it is not ethnic, but illegal alien cleansing. It will be ugly work to be sure, but necessary just the same.
saiga on August 18, 2008 at 9:50 AM
Kosovo is lucky it’s not that near to Russia.
The US has benefited from it’s geographic position, as has England.
Georgia ‘aint ever gonna be “safe.”
JiangxiDad on August 18, 2008 at 9:54 AM
Are we really shocked by this? Seriously, the Russians are using COSSACKS fer cryin out loud. When can we call this what it really is?
BohicaTwentyTwo on August 18, 2008 at 9:56 AM
Lets face it, only in The West does anyone give a hoot about ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is the worlds second oldest profession and has been practiced woldwide by all for centuries. This group of perps includes all our allies and enemys alike. It would be nice to think we can stop it, if we can.
My guess is that many parts of the world don’t give a hoot about what the West thinks.
saiga on August 18, 2008 at 9:58 AM
How long did Hitler’s outrages have to be documented and reported before the free world reached some level of solidarity and did something about it? Clarity is what’s important in the long run, although it will be small comfort to those Georgians who’ve lost everything.
Immolate on August 18, 2008 at 10:00 AM
Maybe 100 years ago it was just Europe’s problem. Maybe even 50 years ago it was Europe’s problem.
But, today, seems only a third of Europe understands what we face and the other two-thirds of Europe don’t want to hear about it, or deal with it.
When the history books are written, if any are permitted to be written, Putin may well be listed as one of the truly great minds of the 21st century in his ability to articulate policy into action. He understands realpolitik. He understands the utility and application of fear, as well.
Yeah, let’s let Europe handle this one entirely on their own.
But, you may wish to write these on some poster board to have handy:
Пожалуйста не стреляйте меня, я имею жену и детей!
Я всегда любил Россию!
coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 10:00 AM
The Russians have done enough bad things in this Georgia crisis that we don’t need to go over the top in terms of unquestioningly passing along propaganda. Remember, we had this propaganda used against us (Haditha) and it wasn’t funny then either.
Outlander on August 18, 2008 at 9:18 AM
Those are as good as “Terrorist ICE Agents” ripping mothers away from their nursing babies during workplace raids…over the top indeed.
DfDeportation on August 18, 2008 at 10:03 AM
While most likely true, there is also the likelihood that the order was passed on to the troops as Putin’s directive, maybe read as it was sent to the generals. So, it comes down now to whether the (a) generals were lying and the troops misled, (b) the troops were lying, or (c) the generals and the troops were telling the truth. Oh, there is a last one — all the Georgians from Gori telling this story are lying.
Any opinions?
Dusty on August 18, 2008 at 10:04 AM
I’ll take (c). The only answer that makes real sense.
coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 10:07 AM
What needs to be VERY clearly pointed out to our allies… is the fact that they have NOT helped the US out in Afganistan, or Iraq, anywhere near as much as they could… so when it came down to facing down the Russian Bear, which only America could do… we were stretched too thin to have any really effective Military response left.
We can’t do it all… and in times of need you help your good neighbor whether he asks for it or not, because you will need his help in return someday…
Europe has forgotten this…
Romeo13 on August 18, 2008 at 10:08 AM
Europe has forgotten this…
Romeo13 on August 18, 2008 at 10:08 AM
Yes. They have. Not the first time, either.
coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 10:09 AM
simpler explanation… the Soldiers heard what they wanted to hear.
Right now Russia is very Nationalistic… and has its first all volunteer army in generations… my guess is its full of very “dedicated” ethnic Russians…
And the FACT that Russia has been arming and sending in Irregular troops leads me to beleive this is policy.
Notice, the story is it was an Irregular who shot the old guy… plausible deniability on Putin’s part…
Romeo13 on August 18, 2008 at 10:12 AM
I can’t argue any of your points, CC – as usual. However, America, in her current fractured state, cannot take on the world in non-nuclear war. She has taken on the job of fighting against global terrorism, with tremendous verve and spirit, but the world has no right to expect her to take on every conflict that comes along. Europe has to get rid of its malaise, or suffer the consequences.
OldEnglish on August 18, 2008 at 10:15 AM
[coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 10:07 AM]
When taken in the context of the other actions by the Russians seen and discovered both in the run up to the invasion, the invasion itself, and their actions since, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to what the people of Gori are saying.
Dusty on August 18, 2008 at 10:17 AM
…so you don’t think hyperbole could have possibly been involved? You think he’d sooner name a superior officer than a name that most any Georgian would know? Was it unbelievable that, upon discovering Saddam Huissein, a soldier said “President Bush says hello”?
The Russian armed forces have been notorious for atrocities for decades. Consider the Nazis and how they reacted towards captives and Jews. The Russian military sees foreign civilians with no more respect than that.
Again, you’re ruling out the idea of Russian soldiers being flippant and mocking? I sincerely hope the occasion never occurs, but if you’re ever at the mercy of them, I think you’ll be in for a big surprise.
MadisonConservative on August 18, 2008 at 10:20 AM
[Romeo13 on August 18, 2008 at 10:12 AM]
I’m not sure of your point. Are you saying Putin probably didn’t give that directive or that he gave a directive ambiguously enough that the troops heard it that way because they wanted to hear it that way.
I’m also curious about your point wrt your volunteer army notation. Are you of the opinion that Russian volunteers (vs draftees) would be more or less inclined to (a) follow orders, (b) violate the laws of war, (c) ignore orders and do whatever they want. How do you see those wrt to their immediate unit officers?
Lastly, how do you think the Russian army as volunteers might operate beside irregular militia? Would they totally ignore them and let them do whatever they want, instruct them to do what they themselves can’t or won’t, or just pretend there aren’t any militia around?
Dusty on August 18, 2008 at 10:29 AM
No need for Nazis here. As an analogy, Grozny is sufficient.
Dusty on August 18, 2008 at 10:34 AM
Putin gave foot soldiers orders? LOL Let me guess. He did it in this roaring voice with multiple echos from an abandoned steel plant.
freevillage on August 18, 2008 at 10:36 AM
I do not dispute that (1) the Russians have likely been brutal in their treatment of Georgian civilians both in Georgia and in South Ossetia and (2) Putin & Co. are up to no good and we must apply appropriate pressure to stop them.
But what I am saying is that we should be careful not to overemphasize the details and such in these kinds of reports because they are in the fog of war and it’s entirely probable that some exaggeration is going on. My point is relatively minor.
All of this does make the evil Machiavellian side of me have some regrets, though, about our extremely restrictive RoE that put our troops in danger and which give our enemies opportunities to exaggerate and lie about the actions of our troops (e.g. Haditha) to score propaganda victories. Imagine if our Marines engaged in a little “street justice” in Iraq and were able to get away with it; I bet the IED attacks would drop off PQD. (I’m not suggesting we should.)
Outlander on August 18, 2008 at 10:41 AM
I have never once, since the Georgian invasion began, advocated getting into a war over Georgia.
There are many avenues short of war that can effectively counter Putin’s moves. And these, if pursued, will not resolve the issue within a single news cycle, nor even several newscycles, but, they can serve to neuter Putin.
But responses in war do not self-generate. It takes leadership.
It’ll take someone like a Yushchenko, along with the leaders of the independent former-Soviet states — New Europe –to provide that leadership.
But is that going to happen?
Seems a difficult prospect. The Western media already has begun sniping…Saakashvili is a pawn of Soros, or Mccain’s foreign policy advisor; Youshchenko is a power-driven illegitimate ruler who is taking Ukraine on the wrong course, as Yanukovich’s followers keep saying; it’s Bush’s fault and Bush won’t help…Bush can’t help…it goes on.
Cetainly not getting any sort of support from this side of the Atlantic. No blood for Georgia! That seems to sum things up nicely. Apparently, no effort, either.
Shortsighted responses to an indepth very complex problem.
I am not hopeful, really. This will be this generation’s Sudetenland, it’s Ethiopia. Little countries, they don’t matter. It isn’t our war. If we only talked to them, we’d find peaceful solutions. If we don’t antagonize them, they won’t try to hurt us.
My parents’ generation heard all of these long ago. Now my generation and my kids’ generation is repeating all of them again.
coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM
From a military perspective, its instructive that they said PUTTIN gave the order… he’s not in their Chain of Command… thus is had to have been a “political” directive… I’m not privy to the inner workings of the Russian Army, like I once studied the Soviets, but political indoctrination was an inherent part of the Soviet Chain of Command for generations… a “political” order had just as much authority as a legal military order in that system.
As to the Volunteer army? Its an underpaid, underequiped, undertrained army. My understanding is its has real problems with corruption… and this is going to impact the type of recruit who “volunteers” for that kind of force. You’ll get two Archtypes who will make up most of them… either the true Russian Nationalist, or the thug. Put them together and you will get a brew of Nationalistic thugs… instead of a more representative cross section of the Russian society.
As to the irregulars… there has always been a disconnect in the Russian/Soviet military between regular and irregular forces… irregular forces have their own chain of command (by district) which is supposed to be under the overall command structure… but they are given political directives more than military objectives… and follow the Regular forces to “mop up” after them… In this case I think everyone was “informed” through the grapevine that this was a Punishment Raid… but you won’t find it in writing…
Romeo13 on August 18, 2008 at 10:43 AM
I hear ya. It’s almost as funny as any idea that Putin ordered his generals to pass the word along. Who thinks up these things, anyway?
a capella on August 18, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Hmmm… thinking on this a bit…
There are multiple Western reports of Russian armored columns patroling and moving about in Georgia… not just falling back like they are “supposed” to…
But the ceasefire is chock full of “security” clauses… are the Russians moving around TRYING to get the Georgians to Fire at them? To give them a “security” pretext for further actions to dismantle Georgia?
Romeo13 on August 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM
At some point in one of the statements that have been made by Rice in reference to our next steps in Georgia she said that the rebuilding will begin. So I think the more stuff that the Russians break, blow up and burn down, they are only serving to perpetuate the length of our presence in Georgia.
Would that indicate US Army Corp of Engineers?
Seems to me that the specific words that have been used by our administration such as humanitarian aid will be vigorous and ongoing, and after stabilization then rebuilding, indicate that additonal US military (not just the EUCOM advisors) will be in Georgia for a while.
Texas Gal on August 18, 2008 at 10:59 AM
Anyone who thinks Putin did not give the order…really needs to brush up on their reading.
Putin runs Russia. He commands the Russian military. He may be a simple Prime Minister, but he isn’t the Prime Minister we used to know.
Was there a single piece of paper, typed up in op order format — Situation. Mission. Execution. Service Support — issued from Putin’s desk down to the lowly conscript in Gori?
Of course not!
But, was the gist of Putin’s intentions passed down the chain of command so that the gist of Putin’s intentions reached that lowly conscript in Gori? Most likely. Happened constantly under the old Soviet Army…that was the job of the political commissar. Not a big deal then. Not a big deal now.
Trivia. We are going to lose this war against the West getting hung up on trivia.
We have enough problems dealing with the normal friction of war, the normal fog of war, but wasting time sorting out trivia?
May as well sit around arguing to determine the number of Russian angels that cans it of the head of a pin.
coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 11:01 AM
Hmmm… I think its going to be more of a G7 response… give them the capital to rebuild.
Will be interesting to see the Western response… Germany and Japan were able to rebuild the infrastructure we flattened in WWII, and came out economicily stronger because of it.
Joker in the deck is Turkey howeve, as they control the Bosophorus straights, and land routes, which give the Georgian economy access to the West.
Romeo13 on August 18, 2008 at 11:04 AM
While I am inclined to agree, would you have equally been opposed to such instances being reported in the 1930s and 1940s about Germany? I realize I am asking you to assume they are true and that we will know them in hindsight, but considering the history of Russia in the last century, and the tens of millions murdered, do you really think it’s more unlikely than not that these are true?
MadisonConservative on August 18, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Again, spot on, CW. I am not advocating war – over this issue, either. What I am saying, is that this is only the first round, and, sooner or later, Europe will have to make a choice. When it comes to that point they must fire the first shots, shed the first blood, only then should America offer to lend a hand, once she knows that the Europeans will stand and fight.
I am ever mindful of just how easy it was, in the days of the blitzkrieg, to overrun so many countries in such a short time, even after the horrors of WWI.
If they let it happen again, serves them right.
OldEnglish on August 18, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Well it worked the first time, didn’t it? I’d say yes.
OldEnglish on August 18, 2008 at 11:14 AM
OldEnglish on August 18, 2008 at 11:12 AM –
I am reminded constantly of that nightime rally in Tblisi, with Saakashvili and the leaders of New Europe standing together on the rostrum. It evoked the spirit of an earlier time when, we as a nation made it abundantly clear to “let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. This much we pledge — and more.”
And tonite, In London? In Berlin? In Paris? In Rome? In Madrid? In the Hague? In capitals across the world? Only the sound of crickets…and in Tblisi the sound of artillery fire in the distance.
coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 11:22 AM
America does not need to take a lead in dealing with this.
Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, and most of the other former Soviet block countries can. Most have expressed a willingness to do so.
The US’s role can be limited to cheerleader, coordinator, and supplier of deadly toys.
Because the US was willing to support anti-Moscow forces in Afghanistan, the previous Russian empire collapsed. The current Russian empire is still embryonic, and not as well armed or trained.
MarkTheGreat on August 18, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Had Germany not invaded Poland, and somebody (in this case Britain) finally decided to live up to their treaty obligations, nothing would have ever been done about Germanies outrages. (If I remember right, the worst of the outrages did not start until the war was well along.)
MarkTheGreat on August 18, 2008 at 11:26 AM
Didn’t the Obambi spend $57 million in July. Look where that got him.
tarpon on August 18, 2008 at 11:29 AM
NATO seems to have forgotten or chooses to ignore one of the fundamental principles of war…unity of command.
Where is the NATO leadership?
Where has that unity of command within NATO been for the past decade?
NATO has become like an Ivy League debating society…lot of talk, fancy real smart talk, but no stomach for getting one’s hands dirty.
Instead, we have what I encountered when I mustered out of the military a long long time ago…a lot of civilians running around with nobody in charge.
coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Hmmm… interesting Strategic question… do we really want all these countries as part of NATO? or as part of somthing new?
Face it, NATO is controlled politicaly by old Europe, and will not help us in the ongoing WOT… at least not to the extent they certainly could. The fact that Georgian had the third most troops helping us in Iraq points out that the X Soviet sphere states would be more willing to “pull their weight” in exchange for our support of them.
So, do we really want these states as part of a NATO who, face it, has allowed us to bear the burder of their defense (pun intended)?
Or would a smaller new alliance actualy be in our best interest? One ALLIED with NATO, but not under NATO orders?
Romeo13 on August 18, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Problem is, CW, Europe never made that fine pledge. Nor will they ever. They will only ever act in self interest, and then only when forced. Also, I think you will agree that, when JFK made that pledge America was a different country to that of today. Now it is fractured and torn from within.
OldEnglish on August 18, 2008 at 11:40 AM
Very interesting question. One which I will have to give thought. My gut reaction is that NATO is through, except as a debating club.
MarkTheGreat on August 18, 2008 at 11:41 AM
When has this not been true of America?
MarkTheGreat on August 18, 2008 at 11:42 AM
- Hey, soldier. I’m your general. You know, Putin asked me to pass this along to you: kill civilians.
- Oh, ok. Hey, civilian. Putin told us to kill you.
freevillage on August 18, 2008 at 11:48 AM
Wow, Russia is doing exactly what Israel has done a few times in its history. Except without being attacked or threatened. Nice.
Seixon on August 18, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Yeah. Absolutely silly idea.
MadisonConservative on August 18, 2008 at 11:54 AM
Thanks for providing your perspective.
—
Agreed. Mocking the way the information is presented rather than addressing the substance of the information seems more like a concession that the substance is true.
Dusty on August 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM
There was a time, despite political differences, when Americans were as one on national security and the “American Way”. In times of conflict, Americans could be relied upon to rally to the flag, so to speak. 1968 ended that.
OldEnglish on August 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM
OldEnglish on August 18, 2008 at 12:00 PM –
How far we have fallen. In one generation. This is the 40th Anniversary of the Left taking over the Democrat party. Progress?
coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 12:11 PM
The only difference is that Isreal never did this.
Of course the anti-semites will believe any lie, so long as it supports their biases.
MarkTheGreat on August 18, 2008 at 12:31 PM
Just call it a “two-state solution” and then everyone will be on board.
Beagle on August 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM
You really need to read up on your history. Look especially at the years prior to WWII, WWI, and the Civil War.
MarkTheGreat on August 18, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Oh, and do it to Jews.
Beagle on August 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Yes, even with the changes it’s still insane.
freevillage on August 18, 2008 at 12:39 PM
If nothing else good is coming out of this Georgian invasion by Russia,Europe is stirring, finally!
jeanie on August 18, 2008 at 12:48 PM
1. The law recognizes a “best evidence rule” that states a preference for more reliable evidence in support of a proposition than less reliable evidence. (Its initial use was to say that original documents are preferred in court proceedings to copies of documents). If you want evidence of Russian abuses, would you prefer to rely on an anecdotal account probably fed by Georgia or would you prefer to rely on all the news footage, the satellite imagery, and other direct evidence of Russian excesses in the country?
The entire point of my original comment was just to say that we should focus our rhetoric against Russia on the systematic and more easily-documented abuses. Press reports with anecdotal evidence that “sounds exactly like something the Russkies would do” should be read with some skepticism. Have we learned nothing from the Dan Rather “fake but accurate” meme and Haditha and the like?
2. With respect to the Nazis, first, I hereby invoke Godwin’s Law to say that you lose and I win. :) Second, I’m not opposed to the publication of these sorts of stories — so no, I wouldn’t have opposed publication of anecdotal evidence of Nazi atrocities against Jews early on in WWII. But remember that the Nazi government had official policies of forced relocation and concentration camps, and Hitler and company gave speeches ad nauseum about how evil Jews were, etc.
Outlander on August 18, 2008 at 12:50 PM
Wow, Russia is doing exactly what Israel has done a few times in its history. Except without being attacked or threatened. Nice.
Seixon on August 18, 2008 at 11:52 AM
I think Israel should expand their borders so they can have a better life and feed their families…
NO JEW IS ILLEGAL!!
DfDeportation on August 18, 2008 at 1:00 PM
…and yet with the changes, civilians were killed, from orders passed down from those men. So how is it insane?
MadisonConservative on August 18, 2008 at 1:00 PM
Of course it’s quite possible the soldiers and generals were drunk, but I know how upset you get when that even comes up, so I won’t go there. Perhaps some pictures showing Ivan’s professionalism and concern for the Georgian citizens might help.
a capella on August 18, 2008 at 1:03 PM
I tend to believe the atrocities being condoned by the Russian leadership. They did nothing to curb their armies during WWII either. The Russian soldier back then was brutal mainly because the poor guy was brutalized himself by his own leadership. He knew no other way of life, and so can be, if not forgiven, at least explained. Today’s young Russian military has no such excuse–so, he either does it for fun or because it’s part of his mandate from above. I strongly suspect the latter.
jeanie on August 18, 2008 at 1:05 PM
I am in agreement with you, and concede that I would much rather have actual evidence of such abuses. However, with Russian soldiers killing journalists and shooting at cameramen, the acquisition of such evidence would seem highly unlikely. In the face of that problem, I would far more like to see something done about it now rather than after the atrocities have become so egregious that no country in the world can ignore them. I’d rather have prevented the Holocaust than discover what happened, as it were.
Though, you make quite a good point when you relate the matter to Rathergate. The only difference is that this may involve people being tortured, raped, and killed.
…so the current ousting of Georgians from their homes isn’t forces relocation? As for concentration camps, and this is not meant to be mocking, but have you completely forgotten the gulags? As for the speeches about Jews, does that not compare to Russian propaganda making the Georgians out to be vicious killers and invaders? The parallels are being used because history has shown the nation of Russia to have the same conquering mindset as Nazi Germany, not because it’s convenient.
MadisonConservative on August 18, 2008 at 1:08 PM
The Civil War created The United States Of America. Before that, the land was really nothing more than a series of States, in two sections.
As for the two world war references, you have proved my point of “despite political differences” because, come those wars, once the govt decided to go to war, the people rallied behind it. It doesn’t matter that America tried hard to stay out of WWI, once it went in, it went in en masse.
Today, only a direct invasion would unite the people.
OldEnglish on August 18, 2008 at 1:14 PM
And Putin is creating a greater Russia for tomorrow, by combining two countries that were once seperate, but for now on will be one country.
MarkTheGreat on August 18, 2008 at 1:51 PM
These moves against Georgia, this likely sets the stage for the future Russian/Islamic attack against Israel in the near future. See Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39.
apacalyps on August 18, 2008 at 2:35 PM
Destruction in Tskhinvali on 08/07/08
Fox News
coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 11:01 AM
Change a few words around and you are talking about Abu Ghraib.
Chimpy on August 18, 2008 at 3:59 PM
Yup, just like we did in Kosavo. . . .yup just like it.
- The Cat
MirCat on August 18, 2008 at 4:30 PM
Change a few words around and you are talking about Abu Ghraib.
Chimpy on August 18, 2008 at 3:59 PM
Abu Ghraib? Sorta figured. Given the source of the comment.
I’d like to be able to walk through Tskhinvali with a pocket calculator, a 100-meter measuring tape, a transit and a note pad. It is easy to walk back from a point of impact to determine the source of fire. Objective analysis.
Why are so many so quick to jump to conclusions about everything based on nothing more than their clear bias toward anyhtiny that can in any way by any contortion blamed on Bush?
Oh, yeah, “gotcha analysis.” The new sterling standard of the Left.
coldwarrior on August 18, 2008 at 4:32 PM
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