I laugh when Whorehay Boooosh says Russia should respect the “territorial integrity” of Georgia. I mena….that’s funny!!! Those poor Russians are just seeking a better life for themselves and feeding their families…

DfDeportation on August 18, 2008 at 12:07 AM

The Russians are just doing the invading that Americans will not do.

Johan Klaus on August 18, 2008 at 1:14 AM

I like that. Two men who can see and hit targets of opportunity.

Two cigars.

I laugh when Whorehay Boooosh says Russia should respect the “territorial integrity” of Georgia. I mena….that’s funny!!! Those poor Russians are just seeking a better life for themselves and feeding their families…

DfDeportation on August 18, 2008 at 12:07 AM

The Russians are just doing the invading that Americans will not do.

Only the very naive and the seriously ignorant or history-impaired could have actually expected that an “agreement” would matter.

Principles.

You couldn’t be more wrong.

This “you-can’t-hurt-Russia-we-never-got-any-help” view is, from what I’ve read, the view of the “average” Russian. That is, the West is out to get us and have never helped us.

It’s absolute nonsense.

My guess is that freevillage’s views are (broadly speaking) representative of most Russians in that country.

You couldn’t be more wrong.

See, we finally agree that the Russian well-being is in no way in the US hands. I’ve been making this point all along.

freevillage on August 17, 2008 at 3:05 PM

Na zdrowie! Have a nice evening.

SteveMG on August 17, 2008 at 4:13 PM

Surprised?

According to an old prof of mine way back when I was beginning my post-secondary education:

When Ben Franklin, a master wordsmith, was US Ambassador to the King of France, he had a predilection towards La belle jeune fille . One afternnon, his wife, Deborah, walked unannounced into Ben’s bed chambers, where old Ben in bed was, umm, entertaining a young miss. Ben’s wife shouted, “Benjamin Franklin, I am surprised!!!

Ben, pulling the covers over his naked frame, said calmly, “No, my dear. I’m am surprised. You, my dear Deborah, are astonished.”

Things Russia does, the good, but more often the bad, for me, at least, often astonishes.

The new threat: Authoritarian capitalist states.

Economic liberalism may indeed lead to political liberalism.

Over time, that is.

In the long run, Keynes said, we’re dead. Perhaps in the short run too.

Very depressing.

Opens the question…who will fill the void…more Russian “peacekeepers,” Ossetian irregulars? Nothing said at all about the Abkhazian northwest.

Nut graf:

[W]e have abetted the rise of hardline states in the hopes that, as they integrated themselves into the international system, they would become enmeshed in it and change for the better. That generous approach, of course, would be the right one to take if history in fact had ended, as the now-notorious Francis Fukuyama argued in his then-influential 1989 essay. Yet as we watch events unfold, it is becoming increasingly obvious that our indulgent approach has failed because the authoritarians are now using new-found strength to reorder the world by force and coercion.

Indeed. We tried to help (sorry freevillage) Russia integrate itself into the international system (yes, in our own self-interest as well) but now finds ourselves with states using their new strength to challenge that system to promote their own interests.

History has a tendency to surprise us, doesn’t it?

When the Soviet Union collapsed, and even your borders were left unguarded, and when the US didn’t kill or enslave you, and steal your resources, or nuke your cities (just for fun), or do much else, I wondered if the Russian people would re-evaluate what level of threat, if any, America poses to Russia.

Yep, we could have essentially walked in and taken over the country.

Or signed contracts with the Russian mafia to steal their oil and resources. Basically, just rape the country.

Instead, we gave them aid and technical assistance to build a new country.

But we weren’t “helping” them or being “friendly.” None of those actions suggest we were trying to be friendly.

Lordy.

May be we should stand by and watch Russia struggle.

If they didn’t have thousands of nuclear weapons, yes.

Otherwise, we’ll have to be involved.

Unfortunately.

Once again, the US never did anything to suggest Russia is their friend. You can’t argue your point by repeating it.

freevillage on August 17, 2008 at 2:54 PM

When the Soviet Union collapsed, and even your borders were left unguarded, and when the US didn’t kill or enslave you, and steal your resources, or nuke your cities (just for fun), or do much else, I wondered if the Russian people would re-evaluate what level of threat, if any, America poses to Russia.

You know, after we steal Azeri oil, and control Georgia’s pipelines, we’re coming after yours. Bwaahhahahahahahahaa.

(btw, we would have done it already, but we were, uhm, busy?)

What lacks is rule of law most of all. The second biggest problem is the shortage of labor.

None of these problems have anything to do with the US. The US shouldn’t and wouldn’t solve them in any case.

freevillage on August 17, 2008 at 2:59 PM

Ya know, I agree with free village on this. Russia had a major demographic crisis, caused in part by lack of rule of law. Men in Bangladesh live longer on average than the usual Russian male.

But how do you bell the cat?
The US could play a positive role, but we have part of the electorate that wants to reinforce failure. Strong, clear thinking in the US is being replaced with emotional, tribal feelings. May be we should stand by and watch Russia struggle.

That is, after a period of destitution and upheaval where their empire was lost and the country in disarray, they’ve now recovered some of that power and prestige under Putin and are “feeling their oats”.

“We will now do what we want and chart our own foreign policy”. Their view (and freevillage harps on this repeatedly) is that none of the previous assistance by the West helped them. “We helped ourselves and built our own nation again. You in the West cannot hurt us; we don’t need your help anyway and since you didn’t help us, you can’t hurt us.”

Russian nationalism, in other words.

Powerful and dangerous ideology.

None of these problems have anything to do with the US. The US shouldn’t and wouldn’t solve them in any case.

freevillage on August 17, 2008 at 2:59 PM

You mistake my assertion that economic sanctions are necessary for a desired improvement in economic conditions in Russia. Actually, I was hoping that applying sanctions would harm the Russian economy.

And despite being from there, you apparently don’t know anything about the Russian economy either. It is fast becoming a large version of Chavez’s Venezuela–nothing going for it except for oil. There is no Russian economy except for Vodka and natural resources. They are only riding high now on oil prices. They will become a basket case once again if oil prices fall.

The fact that this term is relative to you after the man just invaded another country and attempted to take it over, leveling a major city in the process and killing untold numbers of civilians as well as members of the press, says volumes.
MadisonConservative on August 17, 2008 at 1:42 PM

To the liberal, EVERYTHING is relative: America and Russia; saints and sinners; stars and grains of sand… It’s all the same.

And they’re absolutely right about that. Everything on this insignificant ball of mud does look exactly like everything else… To God. And also to every brain-dead moron who ever lived.

All the rest of us have to muddle through and do our best to try and evaluate everything. But the relativist offers no alternatives: either he has infinite Cosmic Awareness of the Oneness of All Things, or else he’s just an infinitely arrogant narcissist. And he always acts surprised when we “insult” him by making the obvious choice.

Not sure exactly what your point is.

My point is I asked you how much worse it could get, and you told me: uhm, we’ll boycott their Olympics.

:)

P.S. I’m out for tonight.

Oh, so G8 will be dissolved in response to what happens in Georgia. Wow. I’ll be watching carefully.

freevillage on August 17, 2008 at 2:56 PM

If we want it too, yes.

“Will the circle be unbroken….?”

Enough on the Russian soul and such for now.

Back to that thingie going on in Georgia…

The Joint US/UK/France/Russia war games in the Sea of Japan and out of Vladivostok, an annual or at leasst frequent exercie going back to 1988, have been cancelled. Were to have started yesterday and gone on for the rest of the week.

Once again, the US never did anything to suggest Russia is their friend. You can’t argue your point by repeating it.

freevillage on August 17, 2008 at 2:54 PM

Not sure exactly what your point is. The fact that we do not have a more harsh policy towards Russia for its abuses of freedoms certainly suggests that we are acting as if Russia is a friend. Russia is certainly no friend of ours, so we should stop acting like it. We should be treating Russia as an enemy–they treat us like it. Let me turn the question around, what has Russia ever done that has made them be anything other than an enemy to the US?