Russia signs new truce agreement
posted at 10:11 am on August 16, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Russian president Dmitry Medvedev signed the revamped truce agreement pushed by Condoleezza Rice as a way to get Russian troops out of Georgia, after nine days of war ruined the city of Gori and revealed the nature of the Russian regime. Mikheil Saakashvili reluctantly signed it yesterday, bitter over the lack of Western military response against the Russians. The question now — will the Russians actually leave?
The agreement now sets the stage for a Russian troop withdrawal from Georgia after more than a week of warfare. It was not immediately clear if any troops had begun pulling back.
The cease-fire agreement calls for both sides forces to pull back to positions they held before fighting erupted Aug. 8 after Georgia launched a massive barrage to try to take control of the Russian-backed separatist region of South Ossetia. The Russian army quickly overwhelmed the forces of the former Soviet republic neighbor and then drove deep into Georgia.
The plan appears to leave some tense issues open to interpretation, including whether Georgia will be able to send troops back into parts of South Ossetia.
This replaces the Sarkozy cease-fire, which turned out to be little more than a surrender foisted on Saakashvili. The Bush administration sent Rice to Tbilisi immediately to renegotiate a more balanced agreement that would result in a Russian retreat. Saakashvili wanted a more robust response from the US, such as attacks on Russian armored columns that continued to threaten the Georgian capital. No one wanted to see the military situation escalate, though, and Rice got the deal the US wanted.
Russia continues to insist that it will stay in its peacekeeping role in the Caucasus region, but the pretexts Vladimir Putin used to invade Georgia as peacekeepers have been exposed as frauds. The Washington Post explains this in an editorial following several days of featuring Russian apologists on its editorial pages. For instance, on the charge of Georgian genocide in South Ossetia, the numbers don’t add up:
A researcher for Human Rights Watch who visited Tskhinvali reported as follows: “A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that between August 6 to 12 the hospital treated 273 wounded, both military and civilians. . . . The doctor also said that 44 bodies had been brought to the hospital since the fighting began, of both military and civilians. The figure reflects only those killed in the city of Tskhinvali. But the doctor was adamant that the majority of people killed in the city had been brought to the hospital before being buried, because the city morgue was not functioning due to the lack of electricity in the city.”
As for their “humanitarian” mission, Russia repeatedly lied about their actions and the situation on the ground, both before and during the invasion. In fact, as even the self-styled “president” of South Ossetia noted to a Russian journalist, it was Ossetians who created the humanitarian crisis, encouraged by Putin and Medvedev:
Militia forces under Russian control include South Ossetians and others brought in from Russia itself — what Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matthew Bryza described as “the North Caucasus irregular forces that the Russian military inexplicably encouraged to enter South Ossetia to murder, rape and steal.” They have attacked civilians in Gori and engaged in ethnic cleansing of Georgian-populated villages in South Ossetia. Remarkably, the Russian-allied “president” of South Ossetia acknowledged the ethnic cleansing yesterday in an interview with the Russian newspaper Kommersant, although he did not acknowledge the killings of Georgian civilians that others have documented. Eduard Kokoity said that his forces “offered them a corridor and gave the peaceful population the chance to leave” and that “we do not intend to allow” their return.
Under these circumstances, Russia can hardly be trusted to abide by the terms of the agreement they just signed, let alone act as “peacekeepers” in the region. They have stoked the conflict by openly backing separatists in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, even while they shelled Georgia. When Georgia responded, Russia had all the pretext it needed to bring in both their army and a host of irregular militias to conduct what appears to be a Russia-sponsored round of ethnic cleansing, looting, and pillaging.
This strips bare the façade of civility that Putin projected to the gullible since assuming power in Moscow. John McCain diagnosed Putin accurately, and several others warned that Russian imperial impulses had not magically disappeared with the Politburo, as they had not originated with them in the first place. Those who ridiculed these warnings should now see the folly of their credulity regading Putin and the new autocracy in Russia.
How can we push back against Russian imperialism? Russia has mostly funded its new imperial ambitions on oil and natural gas. We need to kick out the price supports on energy that allows Putin (and others such as Iran) to prosper. That will severely hamper their ambitions and force them back into a position where they need the West to survive, at which point we can dictate behavioral norms — like ending any imperial expansions.
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It seems Condi did better than Sarkozy. However, she had the threat of economic, diplomatic and military force to persuade the
SovietsRussians.The biggest economic sanction against Russia is to drill for oil in the US. Unless Democrats want to fight wars for oil, the restrictions of drilling need to go.
Right_of_Attila on August 16, 2008 at 10:18 AM
I have only the vaguest notion of the extent and purpose of oil price supports, and suppose I will have to look them up and bone up on it. But, surely, if this country makes a start at becoming an “oil rich” nation itself, we would remove a huge source of income from such countries as Russia, Venezuela, China and the Middle East, thwarting their abilities to cause trouble world wide. It’s time we bcame producers not customers for reasons becoming clear to all but the Democrats in Congress.
jeanie on August 16, 2008 at 10:23 AM
Minor thing…if this yet another “truce” agreement is necessary to halt the Russain pillaging and wanton destruction…what does this say about the level of operational control the Russians have over their forces deployed in the field?
Well disciplined, trained army? Mmmm….No.
A deployed Army responsive to a national command authority? No.
The Russians using the gullibility of the West as maskirovka to re-aling and re-set their battle line? Probably.
Trust the Russians? Emmm…..no.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Explain, please: What was Sarkozy thinking?
The concern, again, is not simply Russia going into Georgia (and hey, how about that powerful Georgian military that the apologists for Moscow point to? The Albuquerque police department could have put up a better fight).
The concern is that this action is the culmination of a series of decisions, actions, threats, statements by the Russian government over the past decade that clearly shows that it has irredentist desires in the “near abroad” and wishes to suppress dissent internally.
Or, more easily, we can blame the neocons.
Explain please, part two: When will the left hit bottom?
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 10:32 AM
The Russian military is so poorly trained and disciplined that one wonders if they’ll withdraw until they have pilfered everything that isn’t nailed down. It would take about one platoon of US Marines to rout those cretins entirely out of Georgia.
drjohn on August 16, 2008 at 10:32 AM
During WWII the Russian army was encouraged to cause as much harm to their enemies(including civilians) as possible up to an including horrible deaths. It was not lack of control from above, it was specific direction from above ostensibly to get revenge against German atrocities which were equally horrendous. With the Cossacks of old this was a way of life even against their own. This amounts to Russian tradition I’m afraid, and it seems that while there is some modification, it’s mostly business as usual.
jeanie on August 16, 2008 at 10:35 AM
“Russia LIED
People DIED”
Anyone?
Sir Napsalot on August 16, 2008 at 10:38 AM
The Russian troops in Georgia look like drunken thugs, not warriors. Their only protection is their mass, not Russian vigilance.
NaCly dog on August 16, 2008 at 10:42 AM
Well, the international community and those who support world rules of warfare and conduct will express their deep repulsion over this.
I expect Glenn Greenwald to post a 87,000 word piece on this travesty.
With about 86,750 of them condeming the “neocons” and the other 250 a perfunctory denunciation of the invasion.
Same old, same old.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 10:43 AM
Simple, stark, brutal truth: Europe and the UK are finished as any sort of power. They have been destroyed from within by their Left.
If the US is not to follow the same path, putting the barbarians in charge, the US has to clean its own house out first. It has to become Hercules. But it won’t.
OldEnglish on August 16, 2008 at 10:44 AM
“The more you tighten your grip, the more will slip through your fingers…”
(paraphrasing Princess Leia, to Grand Moff Tarkin)
Sir Napsalot on August 16, 2008 at 10:44 AM
Oil Strangulation!
That pipeline goes through Georgia,supplies Europe
and the west!
Putin wants control!
Pipeline runs through Iran!
Oh Liberals,USSR and Persia, want to play oil
games,get the picture!
This is all about power,Putin is gambling that
Nato,and the West won’t do zip!
Its going to be a deadly game,btw,Russia started this!
canopfor on August 16, 2008 at 10:44 AM
Yes, but I thought Sarkozy was of a different type.
Sure, he was doing EU’s bidding; but he sure didn’t appear to put up much of a fight.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 10:46 AM
That they don’t like being attacked? Is that the nature you refer to?
Sorry folks but this position wreaks of hypocrisy and I can’t believe the Republicans are actually taking this stance.
I’ll be the first to say that I love and support Israel and when they bomb the crap out of the people attacking them I still support them even when others call the attacks disproportionate. How then can I sit here and blame the Russians for doing the same thing after they were attacked?
If you need more proof of who is to blame then watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ
and contemplate.
Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 10:52 AM
I’m of the opinion that he only did “something” because he has the EU presidency job at this time. If he had not, I doubt he would have done anything at all. Being a business man, his seeming move to the right is aimed solely at improving internal measures to the benefit of France’s budget – nothing more.
OldEnglish on August 16, 2008 at 10:56 AM
Just watched Bush’s presser on this subject, and I gotta tell ya, he didn’t communicate “encouragement.” I couldn’t even really consider it “cautiously optimistic.” Frankly he looked and sounded worried. I could be reading too much into things; I do that a lot. But we’ll see. I don’t think anyone really believes Russia will follow through on this ceasefire.
Weight of Glory on August 16, 2008 at 10:56 AM
You actually believe that Moscow went into Georgian – and is tearing the place up – because of their concern about the people in those two enclaves?
Did you read the account above that, according to hospital reports, the allegations by Russia that thousands of Ossetians were being massacred has no support?
Israel attacks terrorist groups that are determined to wipe it out. That have, as its stated goal, the destruction of the state of Israel and the deaths of Jews.
There is no comparable movement in Georgia for the destruction of Russia or the Ossetians.
This is clearly a ruse setup by Moscow to destroy Georgia and to send a message to the various republics near them to not have an independent foreign policy.
The Finlandization of the “near abroad”.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 10:59 AM
So we’ve come full circle. We have truthers in the Republican party.
Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 11:01 AM
The bombs fell on South Ossetia after North Ossetian guerrillas entered South Ossetia and started “cleansing” it of Georgians. The Georgians are the victim in this, not the Ossetians.
OldEnglish on August 16, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Thank you.
That was what I was thinking, but couldn’t find the words.
rockhauler on August 16, 2008 at 11:02 AM
“..destroyed from within by the left…” At least the last two generations fall into this category. That old saw about what goes around, comes around is forever true.The diameter of the circle has been big for Europe, but it looks as if those days may be coming to an end. Even if not now, it will sooner or later. I have come to think of Europe as sitting comfortably on the edge of a deep, deep chasm that for some reason they are unable to see just yet. And….has our willingness to fight their battles for them contributed?
jeanie on August 16, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Analysis: What does Moscow want in Georgia!
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218710367279&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
canopfor on August 16, 2008 at 11:03 AM
You believe that Moscow’s intentions in going into Georgia were solely out of a concern for the Russians living in those two enclaves.
And I’m a truther?
Is Bush a truther too? And Rice? And Obama? And McCain? And the Washington Post editorial board?
And on and on and on…..
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 11:05 AM
If that’s true (and it may be for all I know) then was it a reasonable response to bomb the crap out of the area instead of sending in troops to cut down on civilian casualties?
And sorry but I’ll need to see some proof that that was going on before the Georgians attacked. There’s far too much misinformation spread by both sides these days to just take your word for it.
Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Now you’re backtracking.
You’re initial post was that this was a purely legitimate response by Moscow to the Georgians massacreing Ossetians/Russians.
Ed has a post above noting that, according to reports, there was no massive civilian deaths in Ossetia cause by the Georgians.
If you have evidence that that is wrong, let’s see it.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 11:09 AM
*chuckle*
Yeah because if there’s one thing we know about our politicians it’s that they just don’t lie.
Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 11:09 AM
Truthers don’t lie. They believe that nonsense.
Second, so American politicians are lying about what happened there but Russian politicians and the Russian government is telling the truth?
If you want to go with that, good luck.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 11:11 AM
Let’s talk about what happens if the Russians do not leave Georgia. It appears that the remaining Georgian Army can not go up against a company of Russian armor. Each individual Russian force can be defeated in detail by well trained forces. But then the remainder of the forces continue indiscriminate violence.
Unless Georgia is interdicting reinforcements (a tunnel closure, sea-lane control blocking Russian landings, and air space control blocking more paratroopers) the Georgians will fail. Even our Delta troops would need a lot of backup – about a brigade, to change the Russian minds.
Do we have some clever ideas on what can work?
NaCly dog on August 16, 2008 at 11:12 AM
I’m not backtracking at all. I just don’t take what anyone says outside the Bible as gospel.
Whether or not there were “massive” civilian casualties isn’t the issue. It’s the act of firing on a civilian population that (again as far as I know) had nothing to do with the troops that were in their area.
Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Heres a 5 part,I think CNN International on
the Crisis,about Georgia,ya,I know CNN!
But it is a tad interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oeiYE4HdJs
canopfor on August 16, 2008 at 11:15 AM
So you believe that during the cold war everything that our politicians told us was the truth and everything the Russians said was a lie?
Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 11:19 AM
Let’s get back to the gravamen of your argument: Russia went into Georgia solely because (like Israel) of shelling by the Tbilisi government on civilian areas in Ossetia.
My contention is that it was a ruse – i.e, a deception – and that the true motivation was to frighten its neighbors and Finlandize it’s “near abroad”.
Israel’s actions are clearly to simply stop terrorists from attacking Israel. Not Jews living outside of Israel.
If that makes me (and Ed and AllahPundit and most of the people here posting) a “Truther” then one of us has an odd understanding of fact and fiction.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 11:21 AM
I’m fully prepared to grant you that one. During the Cold War, everyone lied. It was part of the arsenal.
OldEnglish on August 16, 2008 at 11:22 AM
No and no.
I’m saying that you apparently believe that everything our politicians say is a lie on this matter and everything Moscow says is true.
You completely reject the arguments from Washington and accept the arguments from Moscow.
I don’t accept the arguments from Washington. I accept the accumulating evidence from a variety of sources that Moscow’s explanation as to what happened is false.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 11:24 AM
Oh, goooddddd. Another truce with Russia. Let’s see how well it works.
I’m sure just as well as the peace agreements that Arafat signed with the Israelis.
mjk on August 16, 2008 at 11:27 AM
Actually I never made the argument that Russia didn’t have ulterior motives. It’s quite possible and probable that they did.
My statements have been about who attacked first. From everything I’ve seen it was Georgia attacking separatists that led to this whole situation. If I’m wrong then that’s fine. I’m willing to admit and accept that. If I’m right then they picked a fight they shouldn’t have picked.
Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 11:29 AM
Yep, that’s why the Israelis did those massive air lifts of Jews out of Africa and the raid at Entebbe. And the air lifts out of Mama Russia. Because there are SOOO many Israelis living in those place. And those people on the plane in Uganda, they were all Israeli. Oh, wait they weren’t, but they were all Jews. And the Israelis refused to stand idly by whilst their own people were standing at the precipice of being massacred.
I’m afraid to tell you that the Israelis constantly involve themselves in making sure a second Holocaust never happens again. But believe whatevs you choose to believe.
mjk on August 16, 2008 at 11:32 AM
Did the fighting stopped?
First thing everybody wants is to stop anymore exchange. Rice’s truce is better than Sarko’s.
Now we get into the lengthy ‘neogiation’ stage on the UN stage. It’ll be another 12 years before we see the ‘end’ of it.
Sir Napsalot on August 16, 2008 at 11:38 AM
Why is it wrong to attack separatists if – I say if – they (the separtists) are firing into civilian areas?
One of the explanations – and I’m agnostic as to whether it’s true – is that the Russians had been preparing for this for weeks.
And that the separatists fired mortars into civilian areas inside Georgia to provoke a response.
Once Tblisi responded, the Russians would go in to “protect” their fellow Russians.
Again, that’s a report. I neither accept nor reject it. But given the behavior of Moscow over the past decade or so, that’s not an far-fetched explanation.
The early reports were that thousands of Ossetians/Russian civilians were slaughtered by the Georgian military.
Apparently, as Ed notes above, those numbers were grossly inflated.
To be sure, in conflicts like this, all sorts of rumors and stories get circulated.
Finally, assuming arguendo, that Georgia instigated this, do you think Russia’s response is proportionate?
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 11:40 AM
While I agree with you vis-a-vis Israeli actions to protect Jews, I don’t think it has any bearing on the issue at hand. South Ossetia is part of Georgia – until the UN decides otherwise. Georgia was taking care of business within its own borders. Israel only attacks outsiders when attacked by same.
OldEnglish on August 16, 2008 at 11:43 AM
“The United States is trapped by the Bush-Cheney approach to diplomacy that refuses to talk to leaders we don’t like. Not talking doesn’t make us look tough – it makes us look arrogant, it denies us opportunities to make progress, and it makes it harder for America to rally international support for our leadership.”
(Taken from the Obama official website.)
Well, we have been talking and it has gotten us where?
Maybe it’s just because we just aren’t able to say more than “merci, beaucoup?”
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Jews have been massacred for centuries. It’s understandable that Israel would be more “aggressive” protecting them.
Not so for Russia.
The analogy, as you point out, is utterly meaningless.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 11:46 AM
No but then I’d be a hypocrite to condemn them for it when I support Israel defending themselves in a like manner. My stance is to not pick a fight you can’t win and that’s true for the Palestinians and the Georgians (if Georgia indeed was the initial aggressor here).
Here’s the thing though. This conflict involves a great deal of oil we get through the pipeline that’s in Georgia. Our politicians will say or do almost anything to justify support of Georgia. The Russians will do or say almost anything to justify taking over the area to cut us off from that oil. Thus we are going to hear a lot of propaganda from both sides.
Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 11:48 AM
Maybe Palin can explain this to McCain. Also, there was just some news about America finally sending some research ships into the Arctic to map the Arctic Ocean floor and help us claim our share of arctic oil. Will a President McCain allow us to use any, or will Putin get all of it?
JiangxiDad on August 16, 2008 at 11:51 AM
If this was Israel, they would go into those regions and transport the Jews into to Israel.
Well, not to be too picky but I don’t believe we get any oil or gas (or very much) from that pipeline.
Western Europe? Yes.
That is why Europe is afraid to challenge Russian not Georgia. The oil may go through that pipeline; but the source of it is from Russia.
The US gets most of its oil from Canada, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria and Venezuela.
To be sure, if that pipeline is cutoff, then Western Europe would have to get oil from the same sources we do. Which would drive the price up tremendously.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 11:55 AM
What happened to linking this piece? http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=videolandingpage&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=3029011&referralPlaylistId=playlist
Georgian soldiers firing at American journalists is not mixing with the Republican propaganda too well?
freevillage on August 16, 2008 at 11:59 AM
And where has the Republican “propaganda” said that Georgian soldiers were 100% pure and full of sweetness and light?
Or that none of this conflict is due to some of the actions by the Tbilisi government?
As in nearly all conflicts, some blame can be assigned to all parties involved.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 12:05 PM
LOL
I think the guy has issues: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqSIXIwGLhI
freevillage on August 16, 2008 at 12:07 PM
It’s lies by omission on the part of AllahPundit and Ed Morrissey, for example, when they publish bad stuff only about one side.
freevillage on August 16, 2008 at 12:09 PM
Benaiah-
So Russia just HAPPENED to have it’s team of armour, APCS and crack squads that did duty in Checnya on the Georgian border ‘by accident’? They had to be there; that amount of material couldn’t have been moved there that quickly.
Why are you so willing to give Russia the benefit of the doubt? They have always been heavy handed and arrogant in dealing with their perceived enemies. Suddenly 18 years after the fall of the wall, Russia has forgotten how to be imperialistic and brutal?
Despite talks and negotiations with S. Ossetia over the past year regarding their desire for independence, the area is still part of Georgia, and no country has the right to interfere on internal affairs in another country unless there is something heinous going on, and generally you don’t have battalions of troops and armour mere miles away that just jump in with any rumour. Why doesn’t Russia go into Darfur if it is so worried about people being oppressed and murdered?
The Russians don’t care about people; they care about themselves and rebuilding their empire. Putin isn’t Penkovsky; he hasn’t disabused himself from fealty to the Soviet system.
The Soviets always moved ethnic Russians into an area after they conquered it; they did this in Ukraine (where my relatives are from), in order to dilute the local population and put their own people in positions to spy on the populace and saboutage dissent. This BS about Russia protecting people in S. Ossetia is just a land grab, nothing more, nothing less, and Kommersant admitted to the ethnic cleansing of GEORGIANS. It’s pure, unbridled Soviet style hegemony, and we should have used our A-10s and Predators to blow the Russian convoys to hell.
My God, does no one learn about the annexation of Austria, the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia any more? What happens when aggression by an imperialist society goes unchallenged, except by a few stern words and reproachments? Oh yeah, MORE aggression. Now the Russians are hinting at a nuke strike against Poland. Yep, Russia’s face sure is clean on this one! They are being maligned…
linlithgow on August 16, 2008 at 12:10 PM
Lies by omission?
So, at your site you give a complete and balanced account of events? All POVs and news?
And unless Ed and AP give the entire range of information, they’re lying?
Pretty serious charge.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 12:17 PM
This comment could also be in the “Gang of 10″ topic.
Re: Drill here, Drill now
Debate is over. As a national security issue, we ought to drill.
However, Europe is heavily beholdened to the Russian oil inflow. They are naturally going to be held more ‘hostage’ to Russian’s term. They may not like it much, but it will be their attitude from now on.
Can WE live with a Europe more coorporative to Russia, less helpful to us? Even as we secure our own domestic oil source.
Sir Napsalot on August 16, 2008 at 12:17 PM
[Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 11:29 AM]
Then, I suppose we need to concentrate on verifying who started it. You say the Georgians started it with attacks on SO separatists. Where, why and how and were they civilians or militia?
On the flip side, is the claim that South Ossetians separatists and sympathizers instigated this with attacks on Georgian civilian enclaves in SO. What evidence do we have and what supplemental actions might substantiate this claim?
About the only thing I know of quasi-accruately in this run up is a) the massive and constant DDoS attacks on Georgian communications infrastructure which started about a day or two before the events, and b) the swiftness of the Russian military’s response to the fighting that most experts that would be hard to explain without acknowledging they were prepared on 24 hour standby for this at the time.
Anyone have anything more?
Dusty on August 16, 2008 at 12:19 PM
Not in the analysis. Analysis is mine and I donn’t have to and really can’t defend two opposing points on view on any subject.
As to facts of the war, I’m unquestionably much more intellectualy honest. There’s simply no debate about it. http://radiofreevillage.com/blog/2008/08/16/rossijskie-soldaty-grabyat-bank-v-gori contains this link http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1563317.ece
(p.s. turns out those aren’t “russian soldiers”, they are ossetian rebels but in this context they are a russian responsibility)
Too bad my site still sucks in terms of the number of visits. :( Oh, well.
freevillage on August 16, 2008 at 12:23 PM
Astute observation!
I think this was at the center of Bush’s strategy to use this opportunity to motivate a political response to Russia from the Eastern European nations. He realizes that his time is short and the nature of future America support is not sure. They are going to have to stand together strong and united or they will hang separately.
Texas Gal on August 16, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Listen to it again! At about one minute in, the reporter says Georgian irregulars fired on them. Also, note the lack of proper uniform on the “soldiers”. These were Ossetians.
OldEnglish on August 16, 2008 at 12:27 PM
Who’s your audience?
JiangxiDad on August 16, 2008 at 12:27 PM
Pravda?
Johan Klaus on August 16, 2008 at 12:29 PM
Johan Klaus on August 16, 2008 at 12:29 PM –
A little phrase told to me by a Russian/Soviet emigre back in the 80’s, regarding Pravda [Trith] and its sister newspaper Izvestia[Novosti]:
“Никаких новостей в правде и никакой правде в новостях.”
[trans: There is no news in the truth and no truth in the news.]
To which I might add, for all of the new democracies of the Near Abroad, and perhaps all of Europe, a warning which most accurately sums up Russian intentions:
“Тихая мышь, Кот на крыше!”
[trans: “Be quite little mouse, the Cat is on the roof!”
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 12:47 PM
It’s all about the Geneva Conventions. Civilians like ‘em, because they’re all about having military and civilians and never the twain shall meet. Military like ‘em, because they can surrender honorably, be held safely, and live to fight another day instead of being hunted to the last man.
Unfortunately, men of less scruple have decided that they want the best of both worlds — to fight sans uniforms and claim the benefits of being civilian while not actually shooting and the benefits of being military once captured or outgunned.
By and large, the “ain’t gonna study war no mo’” crowd has gone along with this — and now we have South Ossetian provocateurs to add to our usual paramilitaries, insurgents, and resistance movements.
And it isn’t going to get fixed while people still wring their hands over the letter of “international law.”
cthulhu on August 16, 2008 at 12:57 PM
I’m not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt and, as I said earlier, I never said that Russia didn’t have ulterior motives going in.
I’m just not taking Georgia’s innocence for granted just because politicians here are trying to sell the situation that way.
Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 1:28 PM
So again, it all comes back to drill here, drill now, AND DO NOT USE THE STRATEGIC OIL RESERVE FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN NATIONAL DEFENSE against attack from terrorists and terror nations.
I remember the MSM mocking Condi Rice’s “antiquated” studies specializing in the USSR. Historically, neither the Hungarians nor the French really have much luck against Russia. I’m not aware of what Sarkozy’s cease fire attempted other than an immediate cease fire at least for the sake of Georgian’s fleeing the attack. So Condi’s quite the Russian nutcracker! Good for her, good for Georgia, and good for us. Meanwhile, back on vacation, Hillary and Nancy only wish they had balls.
I wish the Georgians every success in peace, prosperity, security, liberty and sovereign integrity.
maverick muse on August 16, 2008 at 1:33 PM
Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 1:28 PM –
Fundamental questions in international law.
Can a recognized sovereign nation use its own security/police forces to maintain order within its own recognized borders?
Can a recognized sovereign nation enter into agreements with other recognized sovereign nations regarding trade, economic development, technological development, humanitarian assistance and securing its own ability to protect itself?
Can a recognized sovereign nation join other sovereign nations in mutal aid, mutual development and mutual defense agreements?
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 1:36 PM
I’ve no idea. I’ve never done any research into this. Mostly, it’s people who live in Russia. I mostly stress libertarian principles and evils of religion. Some routinely say that I simply hate Russia. Vegetables don’t live just here in HA.
freevillage on August 16, 2008 at 1:50 PM
Yes, he’s in the area of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict, he says Georgians, he must mean Ossetians.
What kills me is that you’re probably legally allowed to have and raise children.
freevillage on August 16, 2008 at 1:52 PM
One interesting point for me is that I’ve seen at least two sources where Russian officials or non-officials quoted have blamed the Republican Party (Cheney et al.) but not Bush for causing this conflict.
It’s interesting that they’ve omitted Bush from any “responsibility”.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 1:53 PM
freevillage on August 16, 2008 at 1:52 PM –
“What kills me is that you’re probably legally allowed to have and raise children.”
Letting a bit of the “old country” slip through there are we not? :-)
No permission or legal approvals required in this country have and raise children. But, you knew that.
BTW, stopped over, again, to your website. Your numbers have ticked up a few…musta been me.
Some interesting stuff. Wish my Russian were back up to speed. Yes, you do have this thing about religion and its effects on the people [in Russia]…probably have your reasons, some going back a few centuries, too.
Ever get any feedback from your readership regarding how libertarian ideas and the coziness of certain members of the Orthodox leadership and the current oligarchs/”siloviki” are viewed by these same Orthodox leaders and “siloviki?”
Would be an interesting insight, for sure.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 2:03 PM
It’s interesting that they’ve omitted Bush from any “responsibility”.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 1:53 PM
I raised this the other night when it first came out here in the West. A number of Russian media outlets passed it out in Thursday’s/Friday’s Russian morning news.
Has me thinking that there “may” be a way out of this…possibly…hopefully…maybe.
Wonder if, in the manner of the Cuban Missile Crisis, there isn’t a Bolshakov in the wings trying to talk to the Bush via a journalist or other person as a personal emissary for Putin?
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 2:09 PM
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 2:09 PM –
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 1:53 PM –
Guess Bolshkov is not such a good example. Perhaps, Aleksandr Semyonovich Feklisov aka Aleksandr Fomin and John Scali would be more appropriate.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 2:16 PM
Yes, Scali. I couldn’t recall the reporter’s name.
Of course, that was when the ability of the US and USSR to communicate was much more primitive. The hotline was a teletext machine, if I recall.
Putin can call Bush up at any time. My guess is that they’ve talked.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Putin can call Bush up at any time. My guess is that they’ve talked.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 2:22 PM
But that would require going through the White House Communications Agency…you know, part of the Cheney-GOP neocon cabal.
It just isn’t like a major Russian media outlet(s) coming up with a charge of the Cheney-neocon cabal and accidently leaving out Bush. All those years studying Kremlinology…wish I had access again.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Question: If I know you are a liar, what is the point in having a “signed agreement”??
Does the agreement make you feel better? Should it?
landlines on August 16, 2008 at 2:29 PM
I’ve only got one thing to say, “Wolverineski!!!”
- The Cat
MirCat on August 16, 2008 at 2:35 PM
I guess we need to start studying photographs of the Russian Ministers on a outing to see who’s up and who’s down.
I simply can’t believe that Putin is this dumb. Ruthless? Yes. Stupid? No.
I guess he sees Bush with a 25% approval rating, us preoccupied with Brittany Spears or whatever idiotic celebrity du jour, and thinks we’re like Europe: decadent and weak.
Nations have made that mistake before.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 3:03 PM
And the ” Russians ” that were killed by the Georgians were probably not actually Russians.
Johan Klaus on August 16, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Not “…talking to leaders we don’t like” Well, I havn’t seen or heard of Obama talking to anyone about the Georgian/Russia problem. All I’ve seen is pictures of him in the ocean in Hawaii more or less looking like the old pix of the “97 pound weakling” who always has sand kicked on him(Yes, I know that goes way back, but so do I). However, if(Lord preserve!) Obama becomes President, I wonder just what con Putin will use with him. Of course, there’s always the truth that you can’t con a con artist isn’t there! Moot point?
jeanie on August 16, 2008 at 3:55 PM
My earlier question[s] still remains unanswered.
What caused Saakashvili to start kickin’ some Southern Ossetian asse in the first place?
Was there some subtle encouragement, was a green light given, were there promises given and than summarily broken?
Saint Mc’s chief foreign policy advisor was up to his elbows in alligators in the country of Georgia.
Methinks I smell a rat and the rat cut the cheese and the cheese smells like hell!
J_Gocht on August 16, 2008 at 4:06 PM
These religious folks in the U.S. are the first to help when there is any disaster in the world. They run and support the majority of orphanages and donate the most to charities. Very evil, huh?
Johan Klaus on August 16, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Just read from the AP that Russian soldiers are forcing Georgian men to clean the streets of South Ossetia!!!!!!!!! Now what does this remind you of? Will they have to wear arm bands or colored stars? This is un-acceptable and if European Jews are not responding to the horror of this then they have become brain dead! Europe, wake up!!!
jeanie on August 16, 2008 at 4:18 PM
jeanie on August 16, 2008 at 4:18 PM –
Оскорбите тогда умиротворяются. Humiliate then pacify.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 4:31 PM
The whole thing is too much like pre WWII Germany for me to feel comfortable about it on any level, even if Russia vacates totally.
jeanie on August 16, 2008 at 4:37 PM
“…if European Jews are not responding to the horror of this then they have become brain dead! Europe, wake up!!!”
jeanie on August 16, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Not a lot of European Jews around much anymore for some reason or ‘nother.
I’d ask that “men of character respond to the horror…” but there aren’t a whole lot of those around much anymore, either.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 5:00 PM
As someone noted, it’s interesting to note that anti-semitism is at its most virulent in places where there are no (or extremely few) Jews.
Other than the deicide charge, frankly I’ve never understood the “thinking” (if we can call it that) behind this bigotry.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 5:03 PM
Other than the deicide charge, frankly I’ve never understood the “thinking” (if we can call it that) behind this bigotry.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 5:03 PM
It is called deflection and transference. Any totalitarian regime, or group, that has to hide its own faults from its people or followers, almost always uses some sort of scapegoat for their own failings. The Jews lost WWI for Germany, the Jews got the US into war, the Jews and wreckers interferred with the triumph of Communism…pretty common stuff, really. And, unfortunately.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 5:29 PM
It is called deflection and transference. Any totalitarian regime, or group, that has to hide its own faults from its people or followers
Sure, the historic use of “pogroms” was intended to deflect discontent among the populace.
But as I understand it, there’s pretty high anti-semitism – as I noted – in places where no or very few Jews live.
Anti-semitism versus anti-Zionism or criticism of Israel’s policies. The “Jews run the world” type of thing or “Jews control America”. Views held by, as I understand it, many Asians. Or a high percentage of them.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 5:35 PM
East target, I suppose.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 5:47 PM
East = Easy dammit!
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 5:47 PM
Holy crap. Former German Chancellor hates freedom.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0816/breaking347.htm
freevillage on August 16, 2008 at 6:05 PM
No, he says Georgian irregulars. Also, bear in mind that, if he agreed with the UN, then, wherever he was, south of North Ossetia, he was in Georgia. I wouldn’t trust a reporter, in the heat of the moment, to be perfectly accurate with the facts, but I would expect him to know the difference between regulars and irregulars.
I shall ignore your attempt at insult, since it was born of an inferiority complex.
OldEnglish on August 16, 2008 at 6:31 PM
You left this out:
[Schroder] now chairs a German-Russian consortium that is building a major gas pipeline under the Baltic Sea.
Money talks, former Soviet republics squawks (yeah, it needs work).
What was that again about Ed/AP lying by omission?
Just kidding; you did link to the story.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 6:32 PM
He does. If you think though he would speak against the overwhelming consensus in the country, then I think you’re bit delusional.
Note that I’m not claiming that the consensus is to the opposite. I’m simply glad to see that American brainwashing doesn’t seem to work in Europe. Germany and France aren’t anywhere near the same page with the US government on the subject.
freevillage on August 16, 2008 at 7:56 PM
freevillage on August 16, 2008 at 7:56 PM –
Got it right there to an extent. The farther and farther we got away from 1945, the fewer and fewer French and Germans took the threat, any sort of threat, even as members of NATO with any seriousness.
When I was born, and as a young child, I was living around all sorts of people who lived through WWII, on both sides, and later, as a young adult, I was living and working with a lot of E. Europeans, some who had gotten out before the Red Army arrived, some who got out in ‘56 through Hungary, or Prague in ‘68, and a bunch of more recent arrivals from Breshnev’s USSR. These folks understood a lot more than most of the rest of Europe and I’ll venture most Americans. By the late 80’s…two generations removed from WWII and all that, and a high standard of living for a good part of W. Europe…most couldn’t care less. The “threat” was gone, a figment of that older generation’s fears.
Brainwashing Europe? I’ll say Europe brainwashed itself…living on hopes and dreams and trying to get a franc or D-Mark was pretty much the focus. It wasn’t W. Europe or even America that actually brought down the Wall, or liberated E. Europe. We helped set some of the conditions for that event, but Gorbachev gets a good share of the praise or blame. The folks in E. Europe and Russia, eventually, took it upon themselves once the conditions were right and the leadership of E. Europe and Gobachev and Yeltsin suddenly discovered they couldn’t keep the people inside the wire anymore.
Anyone remember Egon Krenz?
Last leader of DDR. Even he didn’t get it when his Party was crumbling all around him and thousands of Traubies drove West. Was issuing Party edicts right up to the end.
This time, freevillage, seems the few that “get it” are those in New Europe, and a handful here in America.
As far as ideological preparation goes…Putin couldn’t have picked a better time to re-take the Empire.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 8:11 PM
Brainwashing?
Yeah, our American press is so pro-Bush; they just uncritically repeat the White House line.
How about that other notorious pro-US media organ, the BBC?
Overwhelming consensus in his country?
Seen any polling data on German attitudes towards this invasion and occupation?
Berlin, Washington, London and a host of former Soviet satellites in central Europe have condemned Russia’s military response in the conflict as disproportionate.
All brainwashed?
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 8:11 PM
From false consciousness to brainwashed.
I guess that’s progress.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 8:21 PM
Did Putin order that a Turkish pipeline be blown up shortly before the invasion of Georgia?
Questionable source but still interesting (link).
Key graf:
The comment above from [Duma advisor] Alexander Dugin [that the pipeline won't be re-opened] is a clear indicator for those not already aware that Russia’s intent in Georgia extends far beyond the dirt and people in the former Soviet republic. The larger target is western Europe and the United States.
Let’s all say “duh”.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 8:52 PM
Now, if we could just all get along with each other there would be no need for all this brutality and hatred. Pity that it will never happen unless we reduce the human species to one tribe only. In other words, we’re stuck with it, and have to deal with it firmly.
OldEnglish on August 16, 2008 at 8:55 PM
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 8:52 PM –
Well, Steve, the PKK has had long long standing ties to Moscow. And Russia blames Turkey for supporting Chechen rebels. 2+2 may indeed equal 4 this time.
Now, will anyone with any influence on the process actually understand this? If Russia is looking beyond the Georgian border, beyond her Near Abroad, toward Turkey and Iraq, seems we have somewhat of a bigger problem on our hands.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 9:04 PM
There’s clearly layers and layers to this that we can’t begin to peel away. E.g., the truth is the first casualty in any conflict or war.
Hmm, Russia is not 10-feet tall. Or even five.
With oil still at a robust $125 per barrel, Russia could sit quiet and take in the petro dollars. Slowly rebuild its military, increase the dependence of Western Europe on its resources and then make a move.
Why now? That puzzles me. The timing is more important than the actual invasion.
What’s up?
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 9:12 PM
Timing? Let’s see. Stream of consciousness gfoing on here…
Iran is within weeks of having several kilos of the good stuff. There is little support for Israel taking care of that matter. Even less support for us being involved. Lame duck President. New elections going on in Israel. Musharaf on the way out, and the Paks not knowing which end is up. India balking at the joint Russo-India fifth generation fighter program. Cuba agreeing to forward based Blackjack bombers. Venezuela accepting more Russian military assistance. (They got 10,000 up-dateed Dragunov sniper rifles less than a year ago, among other toys.) NATO meeting coming up in December, to decide about Ukraine, and upgrading Kazahstan’s status may be on the agenda this time. US elections, and Putin’s SVR sending reports based on the MSM back to Centre. Turkey is getting rattled again with internal matters, a bit of the jihad is growing out there in addition to the PKK. America getting hot and bothered about getting troops out of Iraq sooner rather than later. The financial garbage going on here at home, have seen a few Russian commentaries about the bankrupt American capitalists. The appearance of Obama winning by acclaim, if you believe the MSM, which the Russians seem to. The August vacation season for most of Europe, governments across Europe down to skeleton staffing. Tons of press reporting about our military being broken.
Seems a pretty good time to flex a few Russian muscles.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 9:27 PM
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