Stupid: Atheist group wants to be included in Democrats’ … interfaith service
posted at 9:01 pm on August 15, 2008 by Allahpundit
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I’m always at risk of overreacting to stories like this because as an atheist myself I hate the fact that tools like this purport to speak for me. That caveat aside, here’s possibly the single dumbest example of atheist identity politics we’ve seen yet, and we’ve seen some doozies. The sheer efficiency of its loathsomeness is amazing: In one fell swoop it reduces skepticism to a quasi-faith, trades “free thinking” for a pathetic need to feel “included,” and of course embraces the hallmark prostrate grievance posture of the victimized group. I’m not surprised that Dawkins sits on their Advisory Board, but to know that Hitchens, Sam Harris, and Salman Rushdie do too is depressing.
The chief executive officer of the Democratic National Convention Committee, the Rev. Leah Daughtry, has planned an interfaith gathering as the opening event of the Democratic National Convention on August 24, 2008. While it is designed to showcase the “diversity” and “shared values” of the party and achieve a “spirit of unity,” it will, in fact, marginalize those Democrats who do not practice religion…
Tens of millions of American voters are nontheists with no god belief, and millions more who practice some religion bring secular values to their political choices. Based as it is on the premise that all values are necessarily derived from religion, this year’s Democratic convention leaves atheists, agnostics, humanists and other secular voters feeling increasingly isolated and voiceless. By accepting Brown’s offer, the Democratic Party can signal to this constituency that it is serious about being inclusive and tolerant.
In other words, celebrating your religion is “marginalizing” to people who choose not to celebrate religion. Or, as one independent-minded skeptic now reveling in the comfort of faux-discrimination put it, “By reaching out to people of faith, they have shown the back of their hand to those who do not believe.” Exit question one: By that logic, does reaching out to gays or blacks constitute showing the back of one’s hand to straights and whites? And exit question two: Allahpundit, self-hating atheist?
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Yes, they could. However, the base technology had to be framed. Newer technology will continue to be framed.
However, each technology produces a finite product. All can be modeled, all can be framed. Infinity cannot.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:28 PM
Smart dog. He should teach his owner some new tricks. ;)
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:29 PM
Yet they’re organized as a political group. I’m guessing that “freedom of thought” is one of those liberal vocabulary tricks that masks their true desire, which is to squelch true freedom of religion. Heck, their enemies list includes the Boy Scouts.
RushBaby on August 15, 2008 at 11:29 PM
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:28 PM
So me one person that thought you could talk to another person over long didtances thru thin air in the 1700 or the 1800’s and I will show you a person that believed in magic. And if they believed in magic they by definition believed in infinity.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:30 PM
A cop out would be merely repeating your dichotomy without actualy offering support as to why that is the only accurate way to describe the situation. Or, argumentum ad nauseum.
Again, knowledge of an event does not require causing the event. For a being that trascends time and all possible worlds such knowledge is not out of reach. Also God could have enough knowledge of psychology alone to predict behaviour more accurately than we could.
Your argument is really against hyper-calvinists and I don’t agree with their position.
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 11:31 PM
My collie says:
It was a joke — from Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.
CyberCipher on August 15, 2008 at 11:32 PM
I have no idea what you were trying to say in your first sentence. Could you clear it up?
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:32 PM
And to think,that the post was about the idiot Liberals
who want their own time on the floor,at the DNConvention!
And,their Hopen for UNITY amongst all the p#ssed off
groups within their very own party!
canopfor on August 15, 2008 at 11:32 PM
Just in case….
Fila Brasileiro
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 11:33 PM
Olaf:
Raca.
sulla on August 15, 2008 at 11:33 PM
Yes…and so was mine. You need to re-read. God’s last message to his creation was also “We apologize for the inconvenience.”
Man, somebody doesn’t know where his towel is.
My parakeet says:
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:33 PM
MadisonConservative,
Do you realize that when arguing against inifnity exisiting that you undercut the possibility of a physical universe that exists without beginning?
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 11:34 PM
So me one person that thought you could talk to another person over long didtances thru thin air in the 1700 or the 1800’s and I will show you a person that believed in magic
Show me one person that thought people could talk to each other over long distances thru thin air in the 1700’s or 1800’s and I will show you a person that believed in magic.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:35 PM
True. I can predict simple events myself without causing them. The argument at hand, however, is whether events are predetermined. If they are, they are the result of the root that set everything into motion, like someone tipping the first domino. In the current dialogue, it would be God. It doesn’t matter who does what, because God created the who and set them to do what occurs. That is predetermination. If he knows what is going to happen, then free will is void, because the potential of God being wrong is absolute zero.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:37 PM
Ok, folks, this may be futile, but most of you on both sides have been employing some of the least subtle and most hackneyed arguments available for your positions. Neither Olaf nor any of his detractors has made any valid point in the whole last page of overheated rhetoric. Take a rest, all of you. For the love of Pete. This whole argument slips between sloppy and ad hominiem so fast, my eyes are strained.
For (Christian) religionists, the atheist must be allowed to believe as he sees fit. A real atheist will also recognize, within the logical constraints of his beliefs, that the religionist’s religious beliefs are no more or less (ir)rational than his own — any serious student of the sciences knows how hard it is to be completely right about even narrow and circumscribed topics.
The thing that gets me to chuckle, albiet head in hands, is the Dawkinsian atheist’s tendency to prostelyte. And, for that matter, the protestations of those atheists commenting herein. Why so defensive, against someone you consider marginally delusional? I certainly avoid debating the crazies in the park.
Prufrock on August 15, 2008 at 11:37 PM
Is that your answer to God on judgment day Madison? Take an honest look at these articles when you get a chance. Every believer has made his own willing decision to receive Christ.
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:13
apacalyps on August 15, 2008 at 11:37 PM
My schneagle (schnauser/beagle) doesn’t have an opinion on the subject, but Buzz Lightyear says:
Consider the series:
1 + 1 = 2
2 + 1 = 3
3 + 1 = 4
. . .
∞ + 1 = ?
What is infinity plus one?
—
Back to the original question, these atheists want to redefine “interfaith” so as to be “inclusive” of those who claim to have no faith. Any group that “excludes” is inherently discriminatory, you see.
It simply isn’t allowable for a group of people to freely associate with each other based on common interests, because they thereby “discriminate” against those who don’t share the interests. You can’t have a Chess Club, because it excludes people who like checkers, so you have to have a “64-space square board” club. But that leaves out games played on the lines and intersections, like Go or Chinese Chess. And what about Backgammon, Chutes ‘n’ Ladders, or Clue? Why you gotta hate like that?
I think the ultimate test of their inclusiveness is whether they’ll allow conservatives and libertarians into their organization.
The Monster on August 15, 2008 at 11:38 PM
My collie says:
Let me guess. They said “Thanks for the fish.”
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 15, 2008 at 11:38 PM
Have you ever, in your life, witnessed a process that could not have a beginning traced to it?
Chain letters don’t count.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:38 PM
An atheist Russian astronomer visiting America once said, “Either there is a God or there isn’t; both possibilities are frightening.” So you atheists better make sure you’ve guessed right. You gotta 50/50 chance and last time I asked nobody could tell me what the gene code of a rock was.
apacalyps on August 15, 2008 at 11:40 PM
I’ve discussed this issue with many a source, so forgive me if I don’t read the same things I have already had explained to me. The point remains: If God predetermines what will happen, and someone deviates, then God is not omnipotent. God cannot be flawed, by most any faithful’s account.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:41 PM
“Using logic and reason isn’t enough! You have to be a dick to those who don’t think like you do!”
ZK on August 15, 2008 at 11:41 PM
If he knows what is going to happen, then free will is void, because the potential of God being wrong is absolute zero.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:37 PM
You can know what is going to happen and still allow someone freewill.
For instance you know a child will burn his hand on the stove. You have told him it will burn. You can sit back and let him choose to touch it or not. Or you can forcefully remove the child from the room. One you allow him freewill, the other you direct his actions.
Both are available for you even knowing the outcome of the action.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:42 PM
Please don’t take offense at this, but if you’re going to recite cutesy intimidation attempts, I’m not interested in discussion with you.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:43 PM
But I am not God. Nor is anyone God, but God. My ability to predict is irrelevant when discussing his.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:44 PM
That eventually leads to an uncaused cause, with further argument demonstrating that such a cause would need have free will in order to cause/create a temporal effect ie the universe.
Hence my question and why I was wondering where you were actually coming from earlier.
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 11:44 PM
A real (actualized) human being would, at the very least, adopt a live and let live attitude. I don’t see what scientific scholarship has to do with it. It’s an issue of basic decency.
RushBaby on August 15, 2008 at 11:45 PM
Have you ever, in your life, witnessed a process that could not have a beginning traced to it?
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:38 PM
The formation of a soul?
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:45 PM
I wouldn’t try to hash out the whole Calvinism vs. Arminianism vs. Palagiansim vs. (ad nausem isms) here in this thread. Entire treatises have been written on the matter. And I’m on YOUR side apacalyps.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 15, 2008 at 11:45 PM
But I am not God. Nor is anyone God, but God. My ability to predict is irrelevant when discussing his.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:44 PM
You stated that if you can predict the outcome then free will is not there. I showed where you were wrong. Being able to know all outcomes does not mean you can not give freewill to those that can’t.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:49 PM
A real (actualized) human being would, at the very least, adopt a live and let live attitude. I don’t see what scientific scholarship has to do with it. It’s an issue of basic decency.
RushBaby on August 15, 2008 at 11:45 PM
And is the reason I state I DO NOT KNOW if there is a GOD. I BELEIVE there is but DO NOT KNOW. anyone that says otherwise is mixing belief with FACTS.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:51 PM
Happens all the time, in quantum physics.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 15, 2008 at 11:52 PM
Since when was a cause a living thing? I wasn’t aware non-entities could have will, free or otherwise.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:54 PM
Same here. When “Christians” selectively believe the bible, give lip service to Jesus Christ, and believe the God of the bible is the same with Allah in the Koran, I want to pull my hair.
I feel your pain.
maynila on August 15, 2008 at 11:55 PM
Show me a soul. You’re speaking of another abstract, unmodeled idea. How can you witness the beginning of something you cannot witness at all?
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:56 PM
Incorrect. I stated if God predetermines the outcome, then there is no free will. If I misstated that, I apologize for the error.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:57 PM
In quantum physics, non-entities make choices based on OUR observations. It’s a fact.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 15, 2008 at 11:57 PM
Your collie provided my response. Tell him if he’s ever in Madison, Milk-Bones are on me.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:58 PM
Since when was a cause a living thing? I wasn’t aware non-entities could have will, free or otherwise.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:54 PM
So a hydrogen atom does not have free will to marry an oxogen atom on a carbon atom? what makes one hydrogen atom become water and the other become CH4. is is determined by class? poverty, entorphy, does its parents get involved…..
/scar
unseen on August 16, 2008 at 12:00 AM
If they require our observations, how do we know that the choices “they make” aren’t simply a by-product caused not by a conscious decision of the non-entity, but by the fact of our observation occurring?
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:00 AM
And here’s another criticism I have for this lefty bunch.
Yet typical lefties* won’t recognize how Islam excludes non-muslims, and acknowledge their wickedness in their revelry at seeing the “infidel” subdued.
*with notable exceptions such as Hitchens, Harris, and Rushdie, whose membership in this vile little bunch is indeed depressing.
RushBaby on August 16, 2008 at 12:01 AM
HEY MAN!!!!! (extra snarky voice used) but yer a believer man… (aren’t you?)
they cant talk about quantum physics that’s for the edu-ma-cated!!!! not those god-monger types!
I kid I kid! jeez you could cook an egg on the tension in here!
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 16, 2008 at 12:01 AM
I wasn’t aware scientific processes occurred with no cause. I was pretty sure condensation (Again, your grammar is fractured to hell so I’m assuming that’s what you’re referring to) was caused by any number of stimuli, such as temperature change.
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:02 AM
Everybody I know says:
Man, I am so glad that
CyberCypher’s collie is back.
Where it belongs.
hillbillyjim on August 16, 2008 at 12:02 AM
And for the record, I find quantum physics entertaining, not disturbing. I anticipate, rather than fear, the answers.
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:04 AM
Incorrect. I stated if God predetermines the outcome, then there is no free will. If I misstated that, I apologize for the error.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:57 PM
oh ok. i don’t think God predetermines outcomes. He could if he wanted but like the parent and the stove he would rather us have freewill to grow and become more like him. IMO only thru freewill of choice and actions are humans able to become more Godlike. It is why IMO God allows bad things to happen. He will intervene if we ask at times or not if the intervention is not needed.
Being All knowing and all powerful does not mean being all controlling IMO.
unseen on August 16, 2008 at 12:04 AM
Dude, Show me a “neutron“…
you can apply your logic to that just as equally.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 16, 2008 at 12:05 AM
So you agree with me that knowledge is not causation.
The previous point bears on this greatly.
Defining predetermined does not provide an argument that it must be the only way God can interact with the universe and sentient beings.
Depends on why God can’t be wrong. If God can’t be wrong because all events are available for inspection then it’s because of having knoweldge, which you’ve already agreed is not the same as causation and you have not demonstrated how that changes simply because it’s a transcendent being that has such knowledge.
The problem with arguing for a complete negation of free will simply because a being has trascendent knowledge is that you, and no one else for that matter, has actual experience of existing in such a manner and also of what it is to interface with a temporal world of sentient beings. Quite a huge lack of information to be basing such a strong argument on.
aikidoka on August 16, 2008 at 12:06 AM
Religion is to Humans as Viruses are to computers.
JayHaw Phrenzie on August 16, 2008 at 12:07 AM
I have no quarrel with you or with anybody else on this thread tonight. I am reacting to Allahpundit’s post.
RushBaby on August 16, 2008 at 12:08 AM
The thing is, that conflicts with every faithful person who has ever told me that God has a plan for me, or that God already knows, or that God is omnipotent. The latter may be confusing, but the basic structure is that omnipotence means foreknowledge of all things, which means they are already decided. To say that one has free will, but that their decisions are already known is a paradox.
I would like to believe in pure free will. Hell, I would like to believe in God. I spent 8 years in Catholic school and have had close friends from a very wide array of faiths. I have a certain degree of envy for those who can believe and their doubt doesn’t threaten their faith. However, my doubts began early and, while now better defined, hinder absolute faith in all but basic supernatural firmaments.
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:09 AM
Free will, and the intelligence to use it to create something as grand as the universe, imply some sort of personal existence. The term living is a bit too tied to physical organisms to be useful here.
Rather circular argument you have there.
aikidoka on August 16, 2008 at 12:09 AM
Madison, I provided you with enough info to properly answer your question on the subject of free will. Instead you shrugged it off and started with the ad hominem attacks against me. I know your type Madison. See, there are scoffers like you who read the Bible only hoping to find errors or contradictions so they can justify not submitting to its authority. Quite a few read it to see which Scriptures they can wrest (II Peter 3:16) to fit their own wild doctrines or wicked life styles. God wrote it so that some passages appear to contradict at first glance, so those who hate Me will be caught in their own net (Psalm 35:8). Ever think about that. You might want to. Thanks.
apacalyps on August 16, 2008 at 12:10 AM
Got an electron microscope? If that isn’t enough, it’s been modeled.
Model the soul.
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:10 AM
I’ve been a life long coffee drinker. Today, I decided to quit. Cold turkey. I anticipate an overall reduction in my hyper-tension. That’s my final offer.
My collie says:
From now on, I expect to be MUCH calmer than AllahPundit.
CyberCipher on August 16, 2008 at 12:11 AM
Buddy, you couldn’t be more wrong.
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:11 AM
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:02 AM
I was being flip. but put 2 oxogen atoms in with 4 hydrogen atoms. equal distance apart and try to figure out why the two went for the one oxogen atom and the other two went for the other oxogen. chance? freewill? nature. small differences in charge? The answer is who knows but it happened. Does there need to be a cause or does it just happen. I don’t know. Life is like that sometimes. You just don’t know.
I know there are things in the universe that I can’t imagine. Just because I can’t imagine them does not mean they don’t exist. I know there are things people thought they knew for a FACT yet they turned out to be 180 degrees wrong. The more I learn the more I know there is more I do not know and more possiblites in the world and universe then we will ever begin to understand.
unseen on August 16, 2008 at 12:12 AM
Do any of you as atheists believe you have any prayer getting this done? Just wondering.
apacalyps on August 16, 2008 at 12:13 AM
ARgh!! that’s what I meant
bad me, bad me!
aikidoka on August 16, 2008 at 12:13 AM
Thank you! I appreciate that!
it is always better to sympathize or understand someone when you know a little back story. its very enlightening! again I appreciate your posts as they have spurned some really good debate tonight!
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 16, 2008 at 12:15 AM
Keeping radio contact Christian Warriors. This is going to get messy.
apacalyps on August 16, 2008 at 12:15 AM
Viva! Revolution!!!!!
apacalyps on August 16, 2008 at 12:17 AM
I missed this one.
Did you ever consider that this comment thread is not the best way for multiple discussions to be kept track of?
I didn’t catch the entire discussion before I asked and I really don’t see the issue with God being responsible for death. No bigee if death is not really the end.
aikidoka on August 16, 2008 at 12:17 AM
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:09 AM
I have a plan for my son. That does not mean he will follow that plan. That is not a paradox. that is freewill. If my son follows my plan he may turnout ok, if he follows his plan he may turn out ok. Regardless of the plan he follows if he lives by God’s rules he will turn out ok. Having a plan, knowing th outcomes and being all knowing does not in anyway take freewill out of the equation. You can choose to follow his plan or not.
unseen on August 16, 2008 at 12:18 AM
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:19 AM
I still want to know who agrees with Professor Blather and me. Is atheism a religion? Yes or no?
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 16, 2008 at 12:20 AM
Wow that looked horrible.
And that’s downright frightening. Jihadi talk.
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:20 AM
Yes, I’m Lazy, but the soul has been modeled and even if I linked to a hundred writings or things or quoted a million platitudes (like some others here I could mention AHEM) it would probably not budge you :)
but again thanks for the debate all hope it gets AP a new 3g iPhone (when they get fixed)
I’m gonna go watch me some “Dirty Harry” They just added it to the netflix instant view queue! good night all and HUGS all around!
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 16, 2008 at 12:20 AM
That’s quite presumptuous. Calmer than the most pessimistic person EVAH???
hillbillyjim on August 16, 2008 at 12:21 AM
Except Christians will not saw your head off.
We just want you know that Jesus loves you.
Reading these religion threads is disappointing.
carbon_footprint on August 16, 2008 at 12:22 AM
still want to know who agrees with Professor Blather and me. Is atheism a religion? Yes or no?
My collie says:
If not, why not?
CyberCipher on August 16, 2008 at 12:20 AM
that would depend on the atheist.
unseen on August 16, 2008 at 12:23 AM
I’d say no. Theism isn’t a religion, either. It’s just an opinion. You could have an atheistic religion, like secular humanism or (somewhat) Buddhism, though.
RightOFLeft on August 16, 2008 at 12:25 AM
I got the Peace that passeth all understanding, donchaknow.
My collie says:
Collie, you’re practicing without a license again.
CyberCipher on August 16, 2008 at 12:27 AM
A genuinely fair and decent answer.
RushBaby on August 16, 2008 at 12:28 AM
I’m basing it on fundamental reason. Either God allows all events to happen without interference from himself, or he affects at least one decision. If he does, free will is not guaranteed. Now, the argument can be made that only one decision was ever affected, but it puts free will at question.
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:19 AM
You love those absolutes don’t you. What if God is asked to interfer thru prayer. Is not the person asking exercising free will. what if the belief in him ( an action of free will) causes him to interfer to set you on a different path. It was your freewill that started the action not his. Again freewill and all knowing are not mutally exclusive.
unseen on August 16, 2008 at 12:28 AM
Perspective.
hillbillyjim on August 16, 2008 at 12:29 AM
Great question. My answer: yes because it requires great faith to be an atheist, ignoring reality and all, and it is a well laid out belief system.
Mojave Mark on August 16, 2008 at 12:30 AM
didn’t catch the entire discussion before I asked and I really don’t see the issue with God being responsible for death. No bigee if death is not really the end.
aikidoka on August 16, 2008 at 12:17 AM
It kind of started out with my statement that I think death is a disease that can be cured and evolved from there. If I remember corrrectly.
unseen on August 16, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Cyber, you cannot debate whether atheism is a religion or not, without going down a few rabbit holes. Yes, I think we are both on the same side no question, but you got your show to run and I got mine. They call themselves atheists, humanists, free thinkers. Um, yeah okay (rolling eyes). Anyways, they claim not to believe in God. Well, I’ve got news for them. GOD does NOT believe in atheists. Let’s get some people converted brother. Time is running out.
apacalyps on August 16, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Others did. The point was arguing otherwise. I agree, by the way, about the structure of the comments here, but it’s what we’ve got.
Any “war” that involves religion terrifies me, regardless of what religion it is. I’ve known peaceful Christians and peaceful Muslims and peaceful Jews and peaceful Jehovah’s Witnesses and peaceful Seventh-Day Adventists and peaceful Hindis and peaceful Sikhs and peaceful Atheists, which make me respect each of those faiths.
However, the minute one of them becomes a “warrior” for their religion, I run for the hills.
Yes. Claiming to know that there is no God is no less faith than claiming to know that there is a God.
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:32 AM
RushBaby on August 16, 2008 at 12:28 AM
sorry for the caps on the last response. didn’t think you were attacking me. Just wanted to restate my position that I don’t know when it comes to God and anyone that says they know 100% is a liar or uneducated….Now what I believe is a different matter.
unseen on August 16, 2008 at 12:33 AM
When it’s all boiled down, isn’t that’s what is left to consider?
(i know, another paradox)
hillbillyjim on August 16, 2008 at 12:34 AM
Yes. And if the prayer is answered, wherein God restricts another’s free will to facilitate what was prayed for, then we do not all have free will.
And I’m not the one dealing in absolutes. It’s never “some of us have free will” that I hear. It’s always “all of us have free will.” I didn’t make this up, they did.
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:35 AM
It would appear then, that some think religion goes hand-in-hand with the individuals level of commitment and overall zealousness — not necessarily his/her belief system. Is that fair?
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 16, 2008 at 12:35 AM
Once a person experiences the reality of the Holy Spirit introducing that person to Jesus Christ, there is nothing that could make them doubt the existence of God!
SaintOlaf on August 16, 2008 at 12:36 AM
And we know the best answer to that.
(all together now)
I’M RIGHT, YOU’RE WRONG.
;)
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:36 AM
In the Book of Life, the answers aren’t in the back Madison.
apacalyps on August 16, 2008 at 12:39 AM
I don’t want to jump in too deep as I know my beliefs are well outside the mainstream, but I’ll throw this out for giggles.
I believe human choice is integral to God’s grand plan. That our lives are not predetermined, but rather that there are numerous pre-planned places where we can end up, based on how we live. I don’t believe God’s master schematics are so granular that every nanosecond of our lives is documented and predicted before we draw our first breath. It’s more like a Mandelbrot set – wherever direction we’re moving in, it’s not a surprise to Him who has our unique algorithm down perfectly. It doesn’t take omniscience to note patterns of behavior or character and predict outcomes. With omniscience, there are no surprises.
I believe God “prepared a place” for us to end up, wherever we may choose to go. Some call it heaven and hell; my faith takes 1 Corinthians 15 and sees it as three distinct categories of eternal glory (stellar, lunar, solar). That even the worst of us had to do something right just to be born, and that birth qualifies us for an immortal physical existence. How glorious that existence will be depends on the lives we lead here.
As I said, I know mine is an outlying philosophy. But I have faith in it.
sulla on August 16, 2008 at 12:40 AM
I’m not going to be mocking at this, though it is difficult not to be. Tell that to Mother Teresa. Tell that to ANY person of faith, be it a follower or a servant. Tell that to any priest, minister, or rabbi. Tell that to the Pope. Tell that to a Muslim. Seriously, if you’re going to make statements that are so blatantly defiant of human nature experienced every single second in this world, don’t waste your time.
Every person of faith, I don’t care who it is, questions their beliefs at least once in their lives. They may not do it anywhere but in their own minds, but they do it.
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:40 AM
And I’m not the one dealing in absolutes. It’s never “some of us have free will” that I hear. It’s always “all of us have free will.” I didn’t make this up, they did.
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:35 AM
Point to you. Yes I think of Free will as an absolute.
As far as others free will being impacted. IMO that is why most prayers are answered with a no. It is also why I believe that those prayers that are answered the most and get the most conversions are those that impact someone personally and individually. Those that are “born again” those that change their lives when they hit rock bottom. those that allow innocents like children to be helped etc
unseen on August 16, 2008 at 12:40 AM
No. Individuals with more faith, less faith, or no faith do not make a religion. Organization and collectivism make a religion.
RushBaby on August 16, 2008 at 12:41 AM
Also doctrine, IMO.
RightOFLeft on August 16, 2008 at 12:43 AM
Stop wasting bumper stickers on me. Please. It’s nauseating.
Not to quibble, but your argument is then that God has “plans”. The difference between a singular design and multiple possibilities is crucial. I just wanted to make sure I am clear on your position.
Also, my Corinthians is rusty, so I am very interested in your view of the afterlife. Would I be wrong in saying it sounds very like Karma?
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:44 AM
Of course, those individuals holding Calvinistic views would likely argue that it has already been decided who will be converted here.
No matter. Press on. I’m not sure that I can convince anyone of anything. Let me just say that my belief in God is based on my faith in God’s Word. However, it is also true that the things I see in history, nature, and science strengthen my faith, and not weaken it, as many atheists claim that it should.
CyberCipher on August 16, 2008 at 12:44 AM
It would appear then, that some think religion goes hand-in-hand with the individuals level of commitment and overall zealousness — not necessarily his/her belief system. Is that fair?
My collie says:
Is zealousness a real word?
CyberCipher on August 16, 2008 at 12:35 AM
I suppose it is fair. I see a true ateists as a person that just doesn’t believe, who does not try to make others non believers, you admits there is room for being wrong and as no other thought on God or lack of God in his/her daily life.
those pretend ateists that try to preach to the believers, that think about “kicking” God out of society, that want to erase the name and memory of God from every stitch of cloth and paper those I would say were practicing a religion.
unseen on August 16, 2008 at 12:45 AM
Their beliefs is one thing…we were talking about the existence of God.
When you are introduced to Christ through the Holy Spirit there is no doubt again regarding His existence.
When you know God..you cannot deny His existence.
SaintOlaf on August 16, 2008 at 12:46 AM
Divine intervention, in other words. I personally like the idea. Still, I question how, if you believe in absolute free will, how any intervention with any free will takes place, regardless of the reason. One exception defies absolute condition.
Um, wasn’t this post about an organization of atheists? What is the Freedom From Religion Foundation? What is their purpose, and what is their common faith?
MadisonConservative on August 16, 2008 at 12:49 AM
I’m wondering why Daniel C. Dennett isn’t on the board.
Salamantis on August 16, 2008 at 12:50 AM
When you know God..you cannot deny His existence.
SaintOlaf on August 16, 2008 at 12:46 AM
I don’t know about that. Judas did a good job of that. I can deny the sky is blue. It would make me wrong but I can deny it if I so choose to do so.
unseen on August 16, 2008 at 12:50 AM
Supernatural firmaments? Not exactly sure what you mean by that, but your experience sounds alot like what happened to Darwin. Later in life Darwin said, “Disbelief crept over me very slowly. I felt no distress.” Charles Darwin began to doubt the Bible and started thinking the earth is millions and millions of years old. Pretty soon he started believing that man used to swing on a tree by his tail. That sounds a little cuckoo to me. By the way, I would love a tail. It would come in handy carrying groceries and things. I’m sad it evolved away.
apacalyps on August 16, 2008 at 12:51 AM
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