Stupid: Atheist group wants to be included in Democrats’ … interfaith service
posted at 9:01 pm on August 15, 2008 by Allahpundit
I’m always at risk of overreacting to stories like this because as an atheist myself I hate the fact that tools like this purport to speak for me. That caveat aside, here’s possibly the single dumbest example of atheist identity politics we’ve seen yet, and we’ve seen some doozies. The sheer efficiency of its loathsomeness is amazing: In one fell swoop it reduces skepticism to a quasi-faith, trades “free thinking” for a pathetic need to feel “included,” and of course embraces the hallmark prostrate grievance posture of the victimized group. I’m not surprised that Dawkins sits on their Advisory Board, but to know that Hitchens, Sam Harris, and Salman Rushdie do too is depressing.
The chief executive officer of the Democratic National Convention Committee, the Rev. Leah Daughtry, has planned an interfaith gathering as the opening event of the Democratic National Convention on August 24, 2008. While it is designed to showcase the “diversity” and “shared values” of the party and achieve a “spirit of unity,” it will, in fact, marginalize those Democrats who do not practice religion…
Tens of millions of American voters are nontheists with no god belief, and millions more who practice some religion bring secular values to their political choices. Based as it is on the premise that all values are necessarily derived from religion, this year’s Democratic convention leaves atheists, agnostics, humanists and other secular voters feeling increasingly isolated and voiceless. By accepting Brown’s offer, the Democratic Party can signal to this constituency that it is serious about being inclusive and tolerant.
In other words, celebrating your religion is “marginalizing” to people who choose not to celebrate religion. Or, as one independent-minded skeptic now reveling in the comfort of faux-discrimination put it, “By reaching out to people of faith, they have shown the back of their hand to those who do not believe.” Exit question one: By that logic, does reaching out to gays or blacks constitute showing the back of one’s hand to straights and whites? And exit question two: Allahpundit, self-hating atheist?
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Well I guess we’ll have firsthand scientific observation of the interactions of Religion and Anti-Religion when they come in contact with each other.
BDU-33 on August 15, 2008 at 10:17 PM
What do you atheists do about death?
Do you just live every moment of your life desperately trying to avoid the thought of it?
SaintOlaf on August 15, 2008 at 10:18 PM
Bigot to the end Eh Olaf? you just cant seem to grasp how someone might NOT understand or agree with whatever beliefs you hold. its fascinating to watch you post really it is!
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 10:18 PM
Hmmmm….speaking of…
Should the motto “In God We Trust” be removed from U.S. currency?
Connie on August 15, 2008 at 10:18 PM
I’m an atheist, and there is nothing I hate more than the Richard Dawkin shove-it-in-your-face version of whatever it is he practices. People like that have some serious problems they are not coping with.
Whatever happened to freedom?
Clark1 on August 15, 2008 at 10:19 PM
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 10:16 PM
I blame entropy for my grass not getting cut this week.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 10:19 PM
They face the fact that it is inevitable, that no one can defeat it, and that you have to make the best out of the time you have, rather than spend time daydreaming about a fantasy world that lasts for eternity where you get everything you ever wanted.
Clear enough?
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Allah, don’t raise your blood pressure over stupid people.
This just shows that the apparent so-called “atheists” are really just adolescent thinkers who don’t have the maturity to stand by their faith/lack of it/whatever you want to call it.
People just don’t seem to know how to stand by what they believe any more without insulting others or being insulted.
Mommynator on August 15, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Wow, 443616 votes. The principle of the poll is idiotic though. The most that 95% of the people know about the “principle of separation of church and state” is the phrase itself: “separation of church and state.”
jimmy the notable on August 15, 2008 at 10:21 PM
See? I would actually love to hear an answer to this question! (ignoring the snark of course) somehow I don’t think YOU really want to hear an answer…
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 10:21 PM
I think everyone is aware of our own mortality.
Even God gave us free will…There’s no use screaming at anyone about their salvation…worry about your own.
JetBoy on August 15, 2008 at 10:21 PM
Do you just live every moment of your life desperately trying to avoid the thought of it?
SaintOlaf on August 15, 2008 at 10:18 PM
And if they did. would it matter because as far as they believe the very second of death then all those memories no longer exist. Makes one want to study the word futility a little more I would think.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 10:21 PM
yeah, but it aint entropy that keeps it growing though ;)
According to entropy theories your grass shouldn’t even survive to reproduce! LOLOLOL
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 10:23 PM
There is an infinite number of ideas in which I do not believe. I do not believe in them for several reasons.
a) I’ve not encountered them.
b) They are not falsifiable.
c) They were falsified.
I started life with very few beliefs and as I’ve aged I’ve encountered a large number of them. I’ve tried to determine which ideas to believe in and which ones to discard. I saw early on the earnestness with which others believed in God and I really tried to believe in him myself but I failed. Unfortunately for me I know that an idea should have enough meat to it that it contains within it a way to test its veracity. Maybe the Christian concept of God does contain this falsifiability and I’m just too dumb to see it. If so then it opens itself up to testing and then we would have something to talk about.
abrown28 on August 15, 2008 at 10:23 PM
They face the fact that it is inevitable, that no one can defeat it, and that you have to make the best out of the time you have, rather than spend time daydreaming about a fantasy world that lasts for eternity where you get everything you ever wanted.
Clear enough?
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:20 PM
I think of death as a disease. If a gaint clam can live 400 years I see no reason why humans can not. If a tree can live for thousands of years I see no reason why humans can not. I see the race against death as our final passage to be one with God.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 10:24 PM
yeah, but it aint entropy that keeps it growing though ;)
According to entropy theories your grass shouldn’t even survive to reproduce! LOLOLOL
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Yeah I know but it makes a good excuse for the neighbors. By the time they figure it out. the grass is cut…
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 10:25 PM
There’s a difference between good arguments for something and persuading someone. I’m sure you will agree that 9-11 troothers not being convinced doesn’t mean there are no sound arguments that the towers were brought down by planes and so forth.
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 10:27 PM
You always hear atheists gripe about how religion has no place in the “modern world”….and then something comes along that they don’t want to think about…DEATH!
SaintOlaf on August 15, 2008 at 10:28 PM
That’s nice. It’s not. A disease is an abnormal condition. “Dead” is a normal condition for everyone after a given number of years.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:28 PM
Tell me something: Do you even read reasonable responses to your questions, or do you just close your eyes and hum when you see them?
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:29 PM
abrown28 on August 15, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Do you believe in the concept of infinity. It’s a mathimatical concept. Yet you can not see infinity, and you can not touch it and you can not prove it. No one knows if infinity exists yet most believe itdoes. Andif you believe in infinity and the concept of infinite outcomes then the believe in God must be one of those infinite outcomes in the universe. there are many theories in the world by scientists that while backed up by evidence can not be proven without a doubt. Scientists work on faith as much if not more that religious people they just call it something else.
The entire field of geology and dating on the earth is based on the faith that the process observed today where the same processes in operations billions of years ago. That the rate of wethering of rock was the same as today, the rate of limestone formation was same as today. There is no way to prove this since time travel is not an option yet the geologists believe it is true and base their dates on those beliefs.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 10:32 PM
Yes I do, but why is there death?
Because God is the life and the source of life!
To be separated from Him is the source of death.
SaintOlaf on August 15, 2008 at 10:33 PM
Christianity isn’t like neoconservatism where any failure to react to every world event with force and and aggression is labeled “appeasement”.
Christ promised his faithful servants an eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven, not an eternity in the Kingdom of 1938.
aengus on August 15, 2008 at 10:34 PM
I’m not an atheist, and I don’t believe in an afterlife. I don’t run from the thought of death at all. In fact, I am at the point where I count the time left instead of the time that has passed. I would simply like to have had my time as child, son, friend, husband, father, grandfather etc. I haven’t had grandfather yet, but if I died tomorrow, I’d still feel grateful for the rest.
JiangxiDad on August 15, 2008 at 10:34 PM
My life is its own purpose.
Stephen Macklin on August 15, 2008 at 10:34 PM
In other words, God is responsible for death as well as life. Huh.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:36 PM
I have to admit as an agnostic, I feel very “marginalized” I had to hide the fact of my lack of faith from my previous employers… plausible deniability. and in politics I find it to show weakness in claiming knowledge in which by definition you cannot have the correct answer… even egotistical… remember good men and women died so that we might live out from under the almighty state church…
Kaptain Amerika on August 15, 2008 at 10:37 PM
That’s nice. It’s not. A disease is an abnormal condition. “Dead” is a normal condition for everyone after a given number of years.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:28 PM
Is it? 100 years ago death was a normal thing for those 40. Now people would think someone dying at 40 was abnormal. So what is normal. simply becaquse something is the way it is doesn’t mean that is the way it always was or always will be. The Book of Genisis talks about very long lived humans. Is that just myth or was it normal. If it was normal then why would it not be normal in the future. Death is simply the stoppage of life due to age, accident, sickness, organ failure, sucide, etc. If each of those conditions could be resolved would death still occur?
Better nutrition and better health conditions, medicine etc have prolonged life. Why would it not continu to do so. Is there a wall that says this far and no more?
If so where is it? and how high is it?
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 10:38 PM
Platitudes and quotes are nice, and I wish you luck in their use,(I really do!) but this is where I get skeptical that you are going to convince anyone with that method.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 10:39 PM
SaintOlaf,
And if as I die I can look back on my life and know that I lived to the best ability according to the values I chose, then I will die forever at peace with who I am and who I was.
Stephen Macklin on August 15, 2008 at 10:40 PM
Infinity? Infinity only exists as a mathematical concept. No matter how far you count, or how far you travel, you are still at a finite point.
Big Bad John on August 15, 2008 at 10:40 PM
This is why I prefer the term Godless Heathen.
ronsfi on August 15, 2008 at 10:40 PM
Death is normal. It may be 1 week. You can die minutes after you leave the womb. You may die at the ripe old age of 130. Regardless of what age, it is normal, certain, and natural to die. I don’t care who you are. You will die. Anyone who is born will die. It’s normal. It doesn’t matter how long, the circumstances, or whether you were expecting it.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:42 PM
Ahhh, but don’t you see? None of that matters if you don’t agree with his beliefs.
Doesn’t that sound life-affirming?
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:43 PM
By definition there is a correct answer, in which case you can have the correct answer.
aengus on August 15, 2008 at 10:43 PM
He’s back in town… apacalyps is back!!! He’s back and ready to defend his title …(pay close attention to the 1:38 min mark).
apacalyps on August 15, 2008 at 10:44 PM
all I can add is…..
“In the beginning, there was nothing…
And God said “Let there be light”…
And there was still nothing…
But by God you could SEE it!”
mrfixit on August 15, 2008 at 10:45 PM
Dude,
That proves nothing, except that you can beg the question.
If you don’t have the skill for apologetics than stand down.
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 10:46 PM
NO.
God is not the source of death.
God did not say “if you eat of this fruit I will kill you!”
God said “if you do…you will surely die”
God loves us..we are made in His image, made to be sons and share in the Holy Trinity.
Think of the story of the prodigal son…the son heads toward the Father, the Father sees him coming from a great distance away and runs to him and kisses him.
He didn’t say “I’m only going to love you if you right the wrongs you’ve done to me”…He ran to him and kissed him because that is His nature He is all loving.
He loves us, that is why He gives us free will and if we decide to reject Him…He respects that decision, because He loves you.
SaintOlaf on August 15, 2008 at 10:46 PM
Finally – I’ve been reading this blog since it started. It’s become my favorite blog, overtaking LGF.
Allah’s complaints caused me to find a similarity between him and Edward Norton’s character in American History X. Allah’s disillusioned by his fellow atheists while Derek Vineyard was disillusioned by his fellow white supremacists. Cynicism in the name of a cause is a beast.
Exit question: In what direction will this discovery take Allah?
NTropy on August 15, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Death is normal. It may be 1 week. You can die minutes after you leave the womb. You may die at the ripe old age of 130. Regardless of what age, it is normal, certain, and natural to die. I don’t care who you are. You will die. Anyone who is born will die. It’s normal. It doesn’t matter how long, the circumstances, or whether you were expecting it.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:42 PM
So a person can live as long as a tree? or a clam. 1000 years, 400 years. The max is 130 you say. I say why. And if the thousand year pold tree got better nutrition was kept free of insects was pruned and taken care off could it not live for 2000 years or maybe three? /And if it can live for that long could it not live for ever with the proper care, proper medicine etc. If it could replace the parts of its body that wore out. could not its life be expanded indifintly? And if it could would this mean that death is no longer the normal condition?
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Yes, he is. He made man, he made the apple, and he determined what would happen if he ate the apple. Simple.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:48 PM
If you believe that there is nothing after death then how can you look back on your life after you are dead? You can’t.
Your talk about being forever at peace makes you sound like a Christian.
aengus on August 15, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Hey Brother!
SaintOlaf on August 15, 2008 at 10:50 PM
The atheist group that wants to be included …really, this is no suprise. It was only a matter of time. See, atheism is a religion. You would have to believe there is no God. There’s no way you could know something like that. How can you possibly know there’s no God? That’s something you believe, you take that on faith.
apacalyps on August 15, 2008 at 10:50 PM
No, it could not. If the difference between 40 and 100 makes you somehow think that infinity is approachable, you’re going to have to share that stuff you’re smoking. I might add that yes, the average age is low when war is the rule rather than the exception.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:51 PM
Infinity? Infinity only exists as a mathematical concept. No matter how far you count, or how far you travel, you are still at a finite point.
Big Bad John on August 15, 2008 at 10:40 PM
So the universe as a beginning and an end? If it does show me. Prove to me that the universe has a beginning and an end. Infinity has been proven by math. Yet you do not believe in that concept either. hmmm.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 10:51 PM
Your point?
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 10:51 PM
It all Makes sense now…. (BIG EYEROLL)
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 10:52 PM
aengus on August 15, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Aengus,
I wrote “if as I die I can look back,” i.e. before I am dead.
As for sounding like a Christian, I was not aware that believers had a monopoly with being at peace with ones self.
Stephen Macklin on August 15, 2008 at 10:53 PM
He is therefore responsible for both life and death. Someone argued the latter, and I countered. I get the feeling that you don’t like the logic.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:54 PM
How do you arrive at the notion that I don’t like logic when all I asked was for the point you were making? Perhaps you need to pull that jerked knee back.
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 10:55 PM
No, it could not. If the difference between 40 and 100 makes you somehow think that infinity is approachable, you’re going to have to share that stuff you’re smoking. I might add that yes, the average age is low when war is the rule rather than the exception.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:51 PM
So why do you say it is impossible? the difference between 40 and 100 is a very big deal. the difference between 100 and 200 would not be as big. Yet you say 130 is the limit. i ask again why? Life is a process. There is no reason to think that the process with the proper inputs can not be extended. could it be exteneded to infinity? I see no reason why not. Is it possible at this time? No but that does not make it impossible.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 10:55 PM
Infinity is an impossible concept. It’s the drawing of the stairs that go continuously up. It’s the last number you can possibly count. Is this really that difficult to comprehend?
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:57 PM
“Your point?” is normally a sarcastic remark. No other context led me to believe otherwise.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 10:58 PM
You never have anything nice to say wasteland?
Only hateful rhetoric and insulting others….does it make you feel like more of a man…does it feed your pride somehow?
SaintOlaf on August 15, 2008 at 10:58 PM
Infinity is not impossible as a concept, you prove that by describing it in part. But why is this important to you?
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 10:59 PM
It’s also a question. Apparently you decided to ignore the context that included the question mark.
But your previous reply really didnt give an answer. So what if God is reponsible for life and death?
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 11:01 PM
And being sarcastic does not mean someone doesn’t like logic. Unless you think knee jerk assumptions are the same thing as logical necessity.
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 11:03 PM
Infinity is an impossible concept
So the universe is Finite. Prove that. Is it expanding. where is it expanding to? What is it expanding into?
It’s the drawing of the stairs that go continuously up. It’s the last number you can possibly count. Is this really that difficult to comprehend?
So the infinte world is determined by how high you can count? So staris must stop at some point? Could not God make stairs without end. building a new one with every step you take?
Infinity is not an impossible concept. Take a flight on a spaceship and when you reach the end of the every expanding univers let me know.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:04 PM
Hey, brother! I see you’re still fighting hard for the cause of Christ. Well done. Charles Spurgeon (the famous English preacher and one of my heroes in the faith) said, “Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you are not saved yourself. Be sure of that.” A Christian cannot be apathetic about the salvation of the world. You are doing a good work for the Lord, Saint Olaf. Full marks bro.
apacalyps on August 15, 2008 at 11:05 PM
No He is not responsible for the fall of man.
That’s like me saying “you can go jump off a cliff or stay on the internet” and if you jump and kill yourself…is it my fault that you did that?
Of course not.
It’s absurd.. no person could plausibly make that argument.
Jesus who is Yahweh(God) said “I am the life!”
If you flee from God and die, that doesn’t in any way mean that HE caused you to die! Take responsibility for your actions.
SaintOlaf on August 15, 2008 at 11:06 PM
Sort of reminds me of the old George Carlin bit: If god is all powerful can he make a rock so big he can’t lift it?
Stephen Macklin on August 15, 2008 at 11:06 PM
I missed that distinction. Fair enough.
Christians have a monopoly of being “forever at peace” which is the phrase you used – a very eternally-minded phrase.
aengus on August 15, 2008 at 11:06 PM
Um…yes it did. My reply was in response to people saying God is not the source of death. I said it was, and provided logic. That was the point, and it was fairly obvious.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:07 PM
Sort of reminds me of the old George Carlin bit: If god is all powerful can he make a rock so big he can’t lift it?
Stephen Macklin on August 15, 2008 at 11:06 PM
Well could He?
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:08 PM
And yet, with the exception of mathemetics, which is nothing more than deductive logic, ALL of our scientific theories are based precisely on this “fallacy.” We presume our theories to be true, because no one has been able to disprove them. Scientific theories can not be proved. They can only be disproved – and then discarded. The longer a theory withstands the test of time, and no one disproves it, the stronger the case (the greater the liklihood) that the theory is true. And usually, the longer a theory holds up, the more evidence we find to support it. The evidence usually comes in the form of additional observations or experimental results that coroborates or verifies the tenets of theory.
I am not qualified to be AllahPundit’s analyst. I’ll leave that to my collie. However, an “I told you so” might not be out of order. Professor Blather, myself, et al having been saying for quite some time that atheism is a religion. I do not say that simply out of spite or out of some kind of motivation to marginalize atheist beliefs. I say it because I truly believe that atheists hold some premises to be absolute truths that are simply unverifiable. Atheism truly IS a “faith”.
I don’t really understand why AllahPundit is surprised by all of this. All it says to me is that these people (Dawkins, Hitchens, et al) have innate social urges — and that they are willing to “compromise” their principles (set aside their rigid dogma) in order to integrate themselves with society at large. They don’t speak for AllahPundit any more than most people that call themselves Christians speak for me.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 15, 2008 at 11:09 PM
So god created everything except death? Or is god just responsible for the good parts?
Stephen Macklin on August 15, 2008 at 11:09 PM
It is a concept, and it is impossible. Forgive me if my verbiage is confusing. Infinity is an abstract. Some abstracts can be modeled. Infinity cannot. A model would be finite.
And why do you keep asking why something is important or what my point of explaining it is? Do I have to have a reason to have my opinion? Do I somehow have to justify why I make my points to you? If so, please make that clear.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:09 PM
Placing two mutually exclusive items in relation to each other merely results in a nonsense formulation. Putting God in there doesnt change that. That flaw prevents the question from being anything other than gibberish/nonsense at our level, before it can even get to the point of being applied to God.
A reasonable question for a child to come up with and perhaps midly funny for a comedian but not much more than that.
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 11:11 PM
EH?
I wished you luck… how is that not nice? (and no there was no snark or sarcasm in it. I meant it.)
I am glad you have your faith it seems to sustain you.
my criticism comes from trying to understand, and yes I can get snarky. I do however wish YOU nor any of the atheists here any ill will.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 11:11 PM
Bull. A Christian believes “Thy will be done.” Therefore, non-believers would come to agree with you faith only if he will it.
Which brings free will into question, of course. Is there a grand plan, or is there free will? If everything is predetermined, there is no such thing as free will, because your choices have already been predicted. If there is true free will, there can be no plan.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:13 PM
I’m just trying to understand where you’re coming from. Atheist, agnostic, theist etc? I’m irked enough at Saint boy who is incapable of reasoned discussion and is not a good defender of the faith, to put it politely. I dont want to make assumptions about anyone else.
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 11:13 PM
aikidoka,
I did not intend that as serious argument. I literally meant that a previous statement reminded me of joke. I thought the thread could use a chuckle.
Stephen Macklin on August 15, 2008 at 11:14 PM
So god created everything except death? Or is god just responsible for the good parts?
Stephen Macklin on August 15, 2008 at 11:09 PM
I DONT KNOW. Did god create everything? Is everything GOD. Did He place limits on the lifespan of a fly, a clam, a human? Or are those “laws” in constant motion. Is the universe cast in stone or is it evolving with GOD. Is God a status qou or does HE grow? Is he the beginning and the end. Or the beginning? I have no idea.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:15 PM
According to Olaf, the latter. Everything else was just…um…hang on…one second…it’s coming…uhhh…
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:15 PM
My bad.
What the thread needs is some clips from Monty Python and the Holy Grail :)
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 11:16 PM
You don’t want to JUDGE anyone else here…just me?
Do you want to call me a fool also?
I can give you another quote for that too.
SaintOlaf on August 15, 2008 at 11:16 PM
Or better yet: “The life of Brian”!!!!!
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 11:17 PM
I’m Jedi. And you?
To be honest, I gave up trying to label it. Many atheists I’ve met have turned out to be agnostics. Many agnostics I’ve met have turned out to be atheists or theists. I accept that at any moment, I may be confronted with the truth, one way or another. Until then, I know what I comprehend, what I sense, and what I feel. I can take from nothing more.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:17 PM
… or maybe even: “The meaning of life”
hee hee hee
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 11:18 PM
You judged anyone who disagrees with you by claiming their life was purposeless, so don’t even try the victim card.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:18 PM
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:09 PM
So because something can not be modeled it therefore is an impossibility?
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:19 PM
Bring out your dead!
My collie says:
Your a dog. What do you know?
CyberCipher on August 15, 2008 at 11:19 PM
That would be a false dichotomy.
Having knowledge of an event does not predetermine it. The plan could be general in some respects and include within it the allowance for enough freedom that we are still responsible for our decisions.
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 11:20 PM
If it cannot be framed within the human senses, then to the human, it is impossible.
And before you claim that the above perspective guarantees atheism, remember that supposedly “God created man in his own image”. Therefore, we are the model for God.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:21 PM
42.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 15, 2008 at 11:21 PM
Actually, many of these so-called atheists are actually anti-theists (they hate God).
apacalyps on August 15, 2008 at 11:22 PM
No offense, but that’s a cop-out. The concept of the “Grand Plan” is that every decision in history is predetermined and known by God. Either it will happen, or it won’t. Admittedly, relativists and objectivists will disagree here. I happen to be the latter.
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:23 PM
Allah, I’ll always think of you as a jew.
AbaddonsReign on August 15, 2008 at 11:23 PM
True.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 15, 2008 at 11:23 PM
From the story that inspired the post:
What a peculiar turn of phrase.
RushBaby on August 15, 2008 at 11:23 PM
To which the question is…
My parakeet says:
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:24 PM
Dude, I dont mean to bash and this is going to seem critical as hell, but if you read all his posts in this thread the theme seems to be “limits”.
EG: Only what he can perceive. what you CANT do. what HE cant do. what you Can’t imagine. I don’t mean this as a criticism but as an observation, it just seems to be his mindset.
Sorry MadisonConservative I really do enjoy your posts! and not that you would, but don’t stop on my account!
-Wasateland Man.
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 11:24 PM
MadisonConservative on August 15, 2008 at 11:21 PM
So since cellphones could not be imagined in 1800 by human senses it was and still is an impossibility.
Hold on I need to take this call…
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:24 PM
You actually think YOU are the only one I’ve responded to here?
I don’t need to use the word fool, however, it is obvious that you are not very good at apologetics and you only damage the faith with your inept defense of it.
aikidoka on August 15, 2008 at 11:25 PM
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 11:24 PM
Yes I see it. I am simply trying to get his “limits” expanded.
unseen on August 15, 2008 at 11:26 PM
You appear to be Calvinist. To bad ColtsFan is not here to bolster your arguments. He’s very well read. As it is, only my collie is on your side. I couldn’t disagree with more.
CyberCipher on August 15, 2008 at 11:26 PM
er… Oh yeah thats what I meant!
My Brazilian Fila Says:
Dang it now I gotta go clean up the drool again!!!!
-Wasteland man
WastelandMan on August 15, 2008 at 11:26 PM
What a peculiar turn of phrase.
RushBaby on Aug 15,2008 at 11:23PM.
RushBaby:Your on a roll RB,let er rip!!hehe!
canopfor on August 15, 2008 at 11:26 PM
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