Bolton: “The United States fiddled while Georgia burned”; Update: Russian armor 15 miles from Tbilisi
posted at 1:15 pm on August 15, 2008 by Allahpundit
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A hard tonic that mixes only too well, unfortunately, with reports like this one of Bush “writing checks to the Georgians without knowing what he had in the bank,” as one senior U.S. official put it.
As bad as the bloodying of Georgia is, the broader consequences are worse. The United States fiddled while Georgia burned, not even reaching the right rhetorical level in its public statements until three days after the Russian invasion began, and not, at least to date, matching its rhetoric with anything even approximating decisive action. This pattern is the very definition of a paper tiger. Sending Secretary of State Condeleezza Rice to Tbilisi is touching, but hardly reassuring; dispatching humanitarian assistance is nothing more than we would have done if Georgia had been hit by a natural rather than a man-made disaster.
The European Union took the lead in diplomacy, with results approaching Neville Chamberlain’s moment in the spotlight at Munich: a ceasefire that failed to mention Georgia’s territorial integrity, and that all but gave Russia permission to continue its military operations as a “peacekeeping” force anywhere in Georgia. More troubling, over the long term, was that the EU saw its task as being mediator – its favourite role in the world – between Georgia and Russia, rather than an advocate for the victim of aggression…
It profits us little to blame Georgia for “provoking” the Russian attack. Nor is it becoming of the United States to have anonymous officials from its State Department telling reporters, as they did earlier this week, that they had warned Georgia not to provoke Russia. This confrontation is not about who violated the Marquess of Queensbury rules in South Ossetia, where ethnic violence has been a fact of life since the break-up of the Soviet Union on December 31, 1991 – and, indeed, long before. Instead, we are facing the much larger issue of how Russia plans to behave in international affairs for decades to come. Whether Mikhail Saakashvili “provoked” the Russians on August 8, or September 8, or whenever, this rape was well-planned and clearly coming, given Georgia’s manifest unwillingness to be “Finlandized” – the Cold War term for effectively losing your foreign-policy independence.
He doesn’t mention the new missile deal with Poland so there’s less paper in the tiger than there was when he wrote this. Even so, the point about Europe acting as neutral broker rather than western ally is well taken, especially in light of Poland’s prime minister all but declaring yesterday that membership in NATO is worthless. Bolton’s seemingly strange advice, then, for dealing with Russia: NATOize Ukraine and Georgia as soon as possible (and of course elect John McCain). It’ll only work, he adds, if we have a heart-to-heart with Europe first about clarifying their priorities, but I can’t tell if he’s serious about that or not. I’ve always understood NATO to be less an actual military partnership than a means for giving the U.S. political cover in guaranteeing the security of friendly, strategically important nations. See, e.g., Afghanistan, a NATO operation where most of the fighting is done by the U.S., UK, and Canada. The idea that Europe might want to trade its mostly free ride for a genuine confrontation with Russia to rescue a few nations that used to be Soviet anyway seems unlikely to me and doubtless unlikely to Bolton too, which means his NATO suggestion here is just a way of committing U.S. forces to Ukraine’s and Georgia’s defense through a multilateral mechanism that avoids a direct one-to-one challenge to Moscow. Are we already past that point, though, thanks to the missile deal? If you missed it in Headlines earlier, here’s Russia’s reply to Poland. Translation: Watch out you don’t get nuked.
Meanwhile, Rice says Georgia’s signed a new ceasefire and that she’s been assured Russia will sign — although they haven’t yet. According to Fox News, the deal “would require Russia to withdraw its combat forces from Georgia but allow Russian peacekeepers to remain in South Ossetia and conduct limited patrols outside the region.” Exit question: What does “limited patrols” mean?
Update: A lot of people are sending around this old clip of The One explaining how he’s going to disarm America’s enemies with good vibes.
Update: Ah, here’s one of those “limited patrols” now.
There were no reports of hostilities in the eastern part of Georgia on Friday, but a column of at least a dozen armored vehicles moved Friday night from Gori toward Tbilisi, the closest the Russians have come to the Georgian capital.
The company sized unit took up a position in the village of Igoeti, about 15 miles from Tbilisi.
And Georgian troops in the western city of Kutaisi, some 50 miles from the Black Sea coast, said they were bracing as a Russian armored patrol advanced from the west.
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Yea but, President Bush looked into Putin’s eyes! And…Condi is suppose to be really really really smart! If I was a Georgian leader and saw her plane coming I would deny it landing rights!
sabbott on August 15, 2008 at 4:12 PM
Bush tried to be nice to him, sabbott. Said nice things about him in public. To keep the dialog open. Something that the demcorats want us to do with Iran. And do you know what Bush says to Putin in private? No. You don’t, do you?
Try to imaging a world where more goes on than what you read in the newspapers.
wise_man on August 15, 2008 at 4:15 PM
At the end of the Cold War, we had 300,000 troops in Germany. Although there have been indications for the last several years that Russia was increasing its aggressive behavior, the US made no effort to increase its troop strength in Europe, or in & around any of the ex-Soviet or satellite countries. Even now, virtually no one is mentioning this as a means of helping to contain Russian aggression.
cf on August 15, 2008 at 4:15 PM
Yep, that’s what they are. I didn’t see it in any of the clips, only reports about it.
The article: RICE SAYS RUSSIAN FORCES MUST LEAVE GEORGIA IMMEDIATELY does actually quote Saakashvili, Rice and Bush correctly.. surprise! .. from what I watched this morning on Fox.
Texas Gal on August 15, 2008 at 4:15 PM
Bush tried to bring Putin into the international community of democracy and prosperity which would have helped lift up the Russian people. It didn’t work, but I don’t for a minute believe that Bush and Condi didn’t see the real Putin. They’ve been condemning his actions publicly for some time now.
Texas Gal on August 15, 2008 at 4:19 PM
This administration has a way of initiating things only to leave everyone twisting in the wind. They dropped bails of cash on Georgia and had American citizens all over the region. They didn’t anticipate consequences and don’t get it even when it blows up in their faces.
I’ll listen to John Bolton and take his analysis ahead of all others, but my question is why is it correct for Bush to try to surround Russia with his happy-face international order? The only answer I can see is the same malignant idiocy that left our borders open after 9/11, tried to sell Texas sovereignty down the river (SCOTUS let Texas execute that monster finally), and causes him to act as the president of Mexico against American interests.
There is no question that Putin is ruthless and a dictator, but Putin cannot be dismissed totally on those grounds. Putin is a nationalist and he is not about to sacrifice Russia’s interests to an internationalist clique of idiots. He did not get where he is by being born into the right family and having the right connections. The same cannot be said of our “leadership.”
There is no glee in anticipating the departure of Bush II and his carnival of imbeciles. What comes after is liable to be worse in any case. They’ve bankrupted the country and inflicted an intolerable burden on our soldiers. It will takes years to repair the damage done by these idiots.
John Bolton is the best man around to occupy the Oval Office. Too bad we can’t clone him for the cabinet offices.
Feedie on August 15, 2008 at 4:34 PM
I am getting tired of guys like Bolton who come along after they leave the administration and do nothing but complain. He complains about North Korea, he complains about Iran and now he complains because Bush did not pound his shoe on a podium and shout We will bury you or something.
It should be remembered that Bush went way out on a limb to give this man a job and one of the things he accomplished while in that job was to work out the agreement between Israel and Lebanon a couple of years ago that everyone thought was too soft on Hizbellah. At the time he said it was the best they could do. I guess it is a lot easier to do this stuff when all you have to do is give advice.
Terrye on August 15, 2008 at 4:38 PM
rockhauler, here’s another Georgia president signs cease-fire with Russia
Note the last paragraph. That’s a reference to the international observers then to be followed by international peacekeepers.
Texas Gal on August 15, 2008 at 4:42 PM
And besides, everyone hoped that Russia would change. That was what the entire international community hoped. The only thing Bush did was give them the change to do what they said they would do.
But Bush has been pressing Putin over democracy issues for some time now. Bush also made no secret of the fact that he did not appreciate Russia’s policy in regards to Iraq. The fact that the president of the United States was polite and cordial when possible is just part of politics. I have seen American presidents be cordial with the Chinese and the Russians for years, it does not make them best friends.
Terrye on August 15, 2008 at 4:44 PM
Feedie:
I think that was unfair. Besides, when you talk about the burden on our troops, keep in mind that Bolton would have them not only in Iraq but he might even have them fighting Russia and Iran too. What kind of a burden to our troops do you think that would be?
Terrye on August 15, 2008 at 4:46 PM
He’s been in there and knows the score. He’s no Scott McClellan. ;-)
Feedie on August 15, 2008 at 4:54 PM
As if Poland wasn’t already on the Russian target list for strategic missiles anyway. A common misconception is that only Russia and the United States are targeted in our Post Cold War nuclear ballistic missile deterrence plans. Any transhipment points, any militarily useful targets, and anything which the West could use to invade Russia is targeted by Vlad and his generals. Whether a missile is available to cover that target package is another matter, but rest assured, all of Europe is targeted, and likely to be nuked if the war started today. Vlad can’t take the chance any Western nation would survive the nuclear exchange and become top dog in the world tomorrow.
Subsunk
Subsunk on August 15, 2008 at 4:54 PM
rockhauler,
Here is Part 1 and Part 2 of the press conference statements without the Q&A part.
Texas Gal on August 15, 2008 at 4:56 PM
It would be an impossible burden. The messes in Iraq and Afghanistan have gone on far too long, thanks to the lack of leadership and questionable goals. I don’t say I agree with Bolton on everything, but he is an intelligent and principled critic of this administration.
P.S.: Who says we need troops to deal with Iran?
Feedie on August 15, 2008 at 5:01 PM
Feedie:
Bush gave him a job when most people said not to hire Bolton, this is how Bolton repays him. So he knows the score? Well you say that Bush and his people are imbeciles and that their policies have place stress on our troops, but Bolton supported the Iraq policy.
I am not saying the man does not know the people involved, but so do the other players he is busy criticizing. Anytime something like this happens there is always a surplus of experts from both sides of the aisle who come along and talk about what a better job they could of done. It never fails.
But they never seem to have any real substantial and workable solutions to the problems.
Terrye on August 15, 2008 at 5:03 PM
Feedie:
Oh please, the idea that if Bush had just been a stronger leader we could have whipped the countries of Iraq and Afghanistan into shape in no time is naive. Anyone who knows anything about the region or the people who live there know that things are not that simple.
You know we did not even start the Marshall Plan until about 1948. In the 50’s there were still food rations in Europe. We kept hundreds of thousands of troops there for years and years. We had men fighting in Greece after the war. Then there came Korea. Those problems took decades to deal with. Now people want everything over and done with right this minute and if it is not then they assume someone is an imbecile.
Terrye on August 15, 2008 at 5:07 PM
the Good News is that Russia/USSR has never moved troops outside its ‘orbit’ except for Afghanistan
the Bad News is that Georgia is in orbit, as are Estonia, Lithuania, latvia, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulagria, and…….Hungary
and Ukraine and Belorus…..
the other Good News is that Russian soldiers are poorly-trained undisciplined Mooks who had trouble with an opponent they greatly outnumbered
the other Bad News is that there are a lotta Mooks, and they’re just over the border while the USA is far away
Janos Hunyadi on August 15, 2008 at 5:26 PM
yep. But we got lots of porkapalooza “transportation” and “agriculture” bills passed and signed into law, so republican cronies could line their pockets like the democrats had for many years. A nation’s gotta have priorities, right?
grrr
funky chicken on August 15, 2008 at 5:43 PM
Summary.
kirkill on August 15, 2008 at 5:59 PM
I do pay attention. You come around here trying to start fights about religion all the time. That’s because you liberals don’t really understand conservatism. You think we are bigots like you leftists but by definition we are tolerant and opened minded. You finally went too far and revealed yourself, go back to your boss at huffpo or kos and get a knew undercover identity. Maybe you can pretend to be a racist conservative or abortion clinic bombing conservative next but the religious bigot conservative cover has been blown.
peacenprosperity on August 15, 2008 at 6:19 PM
Criminy– If Bush gets nice with Putin he’s a ‘pussy’. If he gets hard-nosed he’s provocative and suicidal. Can W ever get a break? WHO ELSE IS ANY BETTER?? I really don’t like Condi and once thought Bolton was Jesus. Only hindsight shows us who gets it right.
Bolton needs to realize his UN term is over. He can run for office if he’s so damn smart.
leftnomore on August 15, 2008 at 6:23 PM
Poor Boltie,
The Bear moves and he’s stuck cleaning toilets over at AEI.
Karma.
alphie on August 15, 2008 at 6:27 PM
The Middle East is not Europe and there is no moral base as we know it there — except for Israel. Japan recovered under the virtual dictatorship of Gen. Douglas MacArthur.
The deployment of missile defenses near Russia was certain to cause trouble.
The country has never been the same since Vietnam and “leadership” should have known this. We needed to crush those dictatorships and get out. The new powers needed the certainty that we would crush them again if their terrorist cesspool spilled over on us again.
The wars now are waged with goof-ball rules that permit the persecution of our own men while they’re fighting for their lives against cut-throats who hide behind women and children. Meanwhile, Dear Leader fiddles and peddles amnesty for illegal aliens. Doing nothing about illegal aliens while they murder and terrorize American citizens is what I call unfair. Persecuting Marines is what I call unfair. Dear Leader would not listen to his own Republican congressmen when they asked him to do something about the grotesque injustice against our own border patrol agents. Bush would sign their crooked spending bills, though — until the people threw them out in a fit of pique.
Is a tough ruler like Putin supposed to think any better of Bush than Bush’s own demoralized citizens?
Feedie on August 15, 2008 at 6:38 PM
I don’t believe, all of them, having tasted the honey that freedom is, will ever, go down without fighting to the last one standing.
The real wussies are the Russian, having had a chance to be free, and not having taken it. It is now late for hundreds of years.
Entelechy on August 15, 2008 at 6:40 PM
EFP’s for the Russian armor.
Stingers for the air cover.
Make this Afghanistan, Jr. for the neo-Soviets.
profitsbeard on August 15, 2008 at 6:41 PM
I think the Russian prefer to be rich, Ent.
They get decent leaders like Putin out of the bargain…unlike us.
alphie on August 15, 2008 at 6:43 PM
Texas Gal (4:56) Thanks for the links. (Pardon me while I grumble about dialup. . . )
Saakashvili makes an effective presentation. I don’t remember reading anything in the media about disputed territories in Georgia, nor anything about the build up of Russian military forces prior to the invasion. Perhaps I didn’t notice, or was it because the news media wasn’t publishing the information.
Unfortunately, would it have been believable had the news media made the information public? Who do you trust? We know the news media has an agenda, gets the story wrong, or takes the testimony of local reporters as trust worthy. We know that heads of state will present information in a way that discredits critics while attempting to build its own creditability.
Bottom line, military weapons were deployed against civilian areas, the Russian invasion was obviously premeditated, and the Russians are still in place doing damage.
Kruathammer on Fox just made the point that it is beginning to look like Berlin in 1948, a point with which I am in agreement.
rockhauler on August 15, 2008 at 6:45 PM
*Puke*
profitsbeard on August 15, 2008 at 6:46 PM
He is absolutely, 100% correct. We are fiddling and diddling with our collective you-know-whatsits, no matter how strongly Bush is stating his case to the Soviets!
(Yes, can we please start again calling Putin and his thugs what they are: The Soviets reincarnate.)
I thought the other day that something was in the works, when I heard that we were sending some personnel to Georgia for some purpose, but I don’t know.
What we need to do is send at least a few hundred military “advisors” to Georgia, just to be there, and provide a line in the sand to Putin – Who will surely know the consequences if his troops try to push through our “advisors” (Even Putin doesn’t have that many B***s.
seanrobins on August 15, 2008 at 6:55 PM
Putin’s a decent leader?
LOL, er, yeah.
funky chicken on August 15, 2008 at 7:04 PM
Bush = Hitler but Putin = a Decent Leader.
Well. That rather clarifies things. What color is the sky in your world?
TheUnrepentantGeek on August 15, 2008 at 7:04 PM
Absolutely agree with you on that. When the republican (whoever he is) talks tough, then the democrats claim that he wants to start WW3. Obviously in diplomacy you talk first and exercise your options in ascending order. And of course this differs with every challenge.
I think highly of Rice and Bolton, and I think that Bolton isn’t doing any harm by being interviewed and stating his opinion here. He’ll never win any election, but I hope that he is part of a future cabinet. And it’s interesting to remember that Rice concentrated in Russian policy while before entering political life. After the cold war, all that experience was ‘lost’ without a USSR. But of course her skills are there for any current issue. And now with this, she’s a good person to be in government and confront this subject, once again.
wise_man on August 15, 2008 at 7:12 PM
So you like kgb Putin? He’s a great leader?
Johan Klaus on August 15, 2008 at 7:51 PM
Feedie:
Oh please, we had illegals coming up here since long before the war in Viet Nam. It is just that people are finally deciding to get really pissed about it.
But back when St. Ronald Reagan was president it was not nearly such a big deal.
That is not the point here anyway. The war in Iraq is not about something as simple as our leadership, there are all sorts of variables involved.
Too often people act as if there are simple answers to all these issues if only we were smart enough to see them or brave enough to pursue. It is not like that. The Russians will push back. Just getting tough will not be enough, it never was. Fighting a war in the Middle East is not something that we can do quickly or easily no matter what kind of rules we use. Ask the Brits. They did it for years and years.
Terrye on August 15, 2008 at 7:51 PM
And Feedie, what have those border agents got to do with Russia? My understanding is that a jury came to a decision there, go yell at them.
Terrye on August 15, 2008 at 7:54 PM
alphie:
You can always emigrate to Russia if you think it is such a grand place. Their birth rate is down and their average life span is falling, they are in desperate need for people. So desperate, they might take you.
Terrye on August 15, 2008 at 7:56 PM
If Obama’s awesomeness isn’t enough to sway the Russians, what then? In that video he practically brags about his desire to disarm this country.
Yakko77 on August 15, 2008 at 7:57 PM
seanrobins:
Fiddled with what? Exactly what were we supposed to do? That is why I get irritated with people like Bolton sometimes. When he actually had the job at the UN, he did not sit the world on fire. There were no ultimatums, nothing of the kind. He had to go to get along just anyone else in the world of international politics.
I am not saying we should roll over, we need to support Georgia. But the truth is if the Russians want to launch an invasion into a little country with an army smaller than the Vermont National Guard, the options are limited in the short term.
Terrye on August 15, 2008 at 8:02 PM
Bolton is dead on target. This is just the beginning of what will become a world war class confrontation. Putin sees that energy is king, and he’s on the march to restore the USSR, perhaps more.
But Euros will say Kumbaya. And so will we.
So what the heck, let’s vote for HOPE and CHANGE.
petefrt on August 15, 2008 at 8:16 PM
Welcome. LOL.. go ahead and grumble when I was on dial up I grumbled too! Now I’m spoiled!!
What was interesting to me about Saakashvili at this press conference was you could see the intensity of the threat he had been facing by the build up he describes .. like a path being laid but in this case I think a trap that he was pushed towards. He was right that the denial of entry into NATO and the reason publically stated is what gave Putin the green light!!! Why in the world that reason was made public I really would like to know! That was a very stupid underestimation of Putin!
No our media has not mentioned anything about the disputed territories or the build up prior to this invasion. But on another thread last week someone kindly linked to the Georgian Daily online with an article about the EUCOM exercises we were conducting with Georgia that ended on July 31. The article included comments that the Russians were conducting military exercises on the other side of SO and the Georgians were very nervous about that. I went back thru the archives and in that Daily it has articles about the railroad being built and the fear that Georgia had it was being prepared for invasion. The Russian passports that were being given out in the 2 provinces. Basically a lot of published information documenting all that he said today.
Yep I agree with your bottom line. Now I guess we’ll see if Medvedev has any power at all since I do believe he’s the one who’s ’supposed’ to be negotiating this ceasefire.
And I also agree with you and Kruathammer except it’s not just 1948 all over again it’s memories of bomb drills and bomb shelters and nuclear warheads on missiles in Cuba all over again.
Texas Gal on August 15, 2008 at 8:26 PM
I completely agree with you. I have a couple of Bulgarian friends and one from Poland and one from Czech. They all grew up under communism and I’ve seen complete melt downs when the subject of Mother Russia comes up! Sometimes I have to leave the room it becomes so animated, flying arms and throwing hands, fortunately for me I can’t understand the language! :)
Texas Gal on August 15, 2008 at 8:32 PM
Er, no. Different deal altogether. Poland et al have more teeth, plus the same historical bellyful of Ivan’s heavy thumb. Now that the New Europe countries are sure of Putins’s goals and techniques, it won’t come easy for him at all. Especially, with communications what they are today. I think Putin jumped the shark with his timing in Georgia.
a capella on August 15, 2008 at 8:51 PM
My son in law is pure Polish from the Sandhills ranch country. Pretty laid back kid till he starts talking about his grandparent’s experiences under Ivan before they escaped. Pretty grim. Survival mode. Routine humiliation for bits of food, sexual abuse, physical brutality/beatings, starvation. He is from a family of 10 kids, all devout Catholic over here,.. his grandparents had to worship in a closet. Lots of hate for the system and they still have much contact with the old country. Putin may get some spit in his eye if he goes stupid in Poland. I’d never been around Poles till my daughter got married, but freevillage needs to bring his lunch if he wants to get serious with those Polish folks. They do carry a grudge.
a capella on August 15, 2008 at 9:19 PM
The jury was lied to and some jurors said as much. King George II ignored 100 Republican congressmen. He is stubborn and imperious, listening to no one except himself on Planet Bush. The real Bush II: denying justice in favor of a crony. This issue goes to the character of our leadership. He’ll trash his own citizens and destroy their lives, but roll over for China and Mexico. Putin isn’t stupid. He sees our leaders cannibalizing this nation for money and leaving the troops basting in the desert sun. We are overextended and he knows it. The troops will stay there until they can all be court-martialled for violating the ACLU-ROEs.
The border issue is a big deal now because of crime, drug trafficking, vote fraud, and the desire Bush’s pals, the big business corporatists who want serf labor. Screw Americans and screw America; that’s the Bush motto.
Who will defend Europe and America and provide all those free goodies once this country is broken for good? The only reason the liberals are mad is because they couldn’t get to the printing press first and bankrupt the country themselves. How about more bails of cash to Africa, Mexico, and Pakistan? Si, El Presidente, si!
Feedie on August 15, 2008 at 9:20 PM
Too bad there’s no 2nd amendment in Russia. An unarmed populace has no means by which to resist tyranny. Singing “We shall overcome” as the tanks crush them is no way to throw off a dictator.
Russians being Russians. Another reason I miss the 1990’s when we were sowing the seeds of love. Too bad they never made it further than the blue dress.
Buck Turgidson on August 15, 2008 at 9:21 PM
Bingo. I knew several Polish families when I lived in Washington D.C. during the late eighties.
Their hatred of Russians and everything Russian is just unbelievable. It’s almost un-earthly.
They would literally – I mean literally – fight to the last Pole before succumbing to Russian domination.
Their love for America and especially Reagan at the time was endless.
SteveMG on August 15, 2008 at 9:25 PM
Oh yes they do! I think their grudge and my childhood fear is our commonality with my little group of friends. Also it’s been a very eye-opening experience that has created in me a renewed appreciation for being born an American, in the most insignificant and subtle ways of the very common things in my life that I had taken for granted.
Once one of my Bulgarian friends remarked how intrigued she was that the employees in the government offices were friendly and smiled at you, how very helpful they were and didn’t expect you to bribe them to actually do their job! She also was amused at how Americans actually wait in a line, orderly! She has decided to pursue her teaching credentials because the professors were so inspiring to her and supportive of her success.
I tell ya, it’s a totally different world. I don’t see any of them going silently into the night.
Texas Gal on August 15, 2008 at 9:42 PM
Over the past 40 years, give or take, I have met and worked alongside many many nationalities who lived under totalitarian rule….Poles, Czechs, East Germans, Russians, Ukrainians, et al., and when they arrived here in the US one of the first things most did was get a library card. Then they filed paperwork for naturalization with an eye on citizenship.
Then they began to build their lives, families and livelihoods around the American Dream. People whose hopes and aspirations, lives, families, had been crushed under the heel of various oppressors, ultra-liberals who embraced hope and change ideologies such as Communism, who promised these various nationalities that the New Communist/Socialist Man would be their all encompasing example and hope for the future.
They didn’t have contempt for, but did have disdain for, those among us, Americans by birth, who had no idea of the value of our freedoms, those among us who worked vigorously to realize that same Communist Man idea here in America.
They also were astonished that so many “natural born” Americans had so little idea of the documents and principles and sacrifices upon which our freedoms were built and are protected, nor any inclination to understand the underpinnings of our fragile democracy.
Guess you really cannot understand an enemy threat to our existance, our freedom as a nation, until you have lived through having your existance, your freedom, taken away from you.
Old Europe meet New Europe. Now sit down and listen…they got a few things they want to tell you. [America, better sit in on this conversation, too.]
coldwarrior on August 15, 2008 at 9:43 PM
Feedie:
This thread is about Russia, it is not about some grudge you are carrying over an obsession with illegal immigration and a court case involving a couple of border agents. Calling Bush King George is just ridiculous. Cronyism my behind. Bush did not send those men to jail, the jury did. They would have been in that court room no matter who the president was and illegals would have been crossing the border even if Kerry had won the election.
And this country is not broken. I am so sick of this kind of hysterical rant. I know people who think they are doing without if they can afford cable. This country is not broken and it is not ruined.
Terrye on August 15, 2008 at 10:16 PM
I work with a young man from Poland, very devout Catholic. He is such a nice young man. I work in the field and have not seen him since all this began, I wonder how he feels about it.
Terrye on August 15, 2008 at 10:19 PM
Ah yes! Every one on my E.Euro friends constantly raves about access to our libraries!
You betcha!
Texas Gal on August 15, 2008 at 10:45 PM
Correct on #1. I’m honestly not surprised that the same characters don’t turn every page here about how much McCain sucks. Lord knows they try. Just like some people like what you’re saying here with the illegal immigration hot topic.
Correct on #2. Our country is not broken. The republican party is not broken. People who go on like this sound almost exactly like democrats, who for 7 1/2 years have been chanting “Bush stole the election” and “Bush lied” and “Not my president.” When the guy you didn’t support won, then don’t try to sabotage the election so the democrat can win as part of your chess game to ‘have a Carter before you can get a Reagan.’ Our nation is not broken and not ruined. The “we’ve become a nation of whiners” quote was really on target. Not only for the economy, which is bad but not in shambles, and also for our election process. It’s not broken. Your candidate didn’t get enough votes. And this is how you’re going to act? Good Lord. As someone else mentioned (referring to the housing market) but it holds true here for others as well:
Suck. It. Up.
wise_man on August 15, 2008 at 10:46 PM
Bolton for Secretary of State (Someone needs to clean up that broken agency.)
Send_Me on August 15, 2008 at 10:54 PM
Sadly I bring the news for you that Bolton would only be the executive of State, CEO. The problems at State (mid level admin and operational supervisors) as well as, CIA, Pentagon, etc. are not going to be purged by the executive, CEO, in a 4 or even an 8 years stint.
The reason is because the only action that can remove career employees is thru the disciplinary action process that can and will out last any 4 or 8 years administration.
Texas Gal on August 15, 2008 at 11:02 PM
Didn’t stop Bill Casey, Caspar Weinberger, or Gen. Michael Hayden.
Send_Me on August 15, 2008 at 11:13 PM
Texas Gal on August 15, 2008 at 11:02 PM –
Texas Gal on August 15, 2008 at 10:45 PM –
Regarding libraries, I have visited homes of recent arrivals, and found parents and grandparents feverishly pouring over the kids’ civics and history textbooks, in homes filled with books, well thumbed, well read. Now, how many “native born” American parents spend that kind of time reading their kids’ text books, let alone keep up with what their kids are learning or not learning?
As for cleaning up our various agencies…
Yes, in some cases disciplinary action is called for. But to apply disciplinary action wholesale, well, even as a former intel officer, I find this disturbing.
What we do need is an Administration willing to go to the razor’s edge in real leadership and in doing so set the tone and standards for these various Executive agencies.
When Reagan and the First Team came to office, we had set before us a series of goals…mission statements…directives. Our ability to implement or carry out these was not hampered by constant revision and second-guessing. The tone in 1981 through 1988, for example, was this is our goal, mission. Now, go do it. Report back when that goal is met. And there was enthusiastic support from the leadership for accomplishment of these goals.
Political appointees, and the process of confirmation of these appointees, is a large part of the problem, because many are chosen, and fewer are confirmed, leading to holdovers from previous Administrations or vacant slots at the top, which hamper accomplishment.
People [to include Congress, especially Congress] need to get over this “he ain’t my President, it ain’t my party” syndrome, and damn fast. Elections have results…one either wins or one loses. This petty garbage we have witnessed over the past near decade has done more to destroy our ability to defend ourselves than any other single item.
coldwarrior on August 15, 2008 at 11:17 PM
Send_Me on August 15, 2008 at 11:13 PM –
Good to see you mention Michael Hayden. A welcome breath of fresh air in an otherwise stagnant room. Now, if he didn’t have to play politics with the ODNI to get to the White House, the process would be simpler, smoother, more accountable.
coldwarrior on August 15, 2008 at 11:19 PM
“…the process would be simpler, smoother, more accountable.’
Reminds me of many instances when dealing with a foreign country in carrrying out my assigned tasks when I had to deal with State. In most cases I could not get a simple yes or no response…I had to wait while my question or concern was weighed by several offices and desks and at times up to and beyond the Assistant Under Secretary level. I, on the other hand, operating under a directive from the DCI or DDO, could take the necessary actions based on my decision…and I was fully accountable for my decision.
Accountability. Can’t have that by adding layer upon layer of bureaucracy.
Seek out the best qualified. Give them the means. Clear the roadblocks. Hold them accountable. Turn them loose. Goals accomplished.
coldwarrior on August 15, 2008 at 11:30 PM
I will admit to being one of those many people who took much of what I had in America for granted until I got a case of Wanderlust (hence my nick) and live in Australasia. The longer I am away from home, the more I miss those things.
The sad fact is, I believe that most people in the “free world” (including the US, EU, AU/NZ, and Japan) have almost completely forgotten the blood that was shed to provide them with the most basic rights. I don’t mean things like the “right” to an abortion paid for by the state, or the “right” to be given welfare checks when you choose to not work; rather, the rights to speak your opinions without fear of political retribution, keep and bear arms, hold peaceful assembly, worship the religion of your choice, and generally conduct yourself as you see fit without fear or worry that some benevolent dictatorship posing as “government” will choose to interfere in those things.
Meanwhile most people seem to take their political stances and philosopical leanings from 10 second soundbites and “reality” TV shows. Having forgotten their past, they have no hope for a future.
What I think most people miss when trying to understand the motives of the political Left (and yes, it is one movement that is truly international, and reflects the nadir of human nature and ambition), is that at its core, it worships the age-old ideology of the “master race” vs. “slave race”. This belief system has been expressed in many different forms across the ages, from literal slavery to serfdom to indentured servitude to separate but equal, to welfare and the all-involved Government that people want to believe will “fix” everything. What people miss in all of these shennanigans is, if you follow the money, everything they do is a means to a specific end: control of power and wealth by any means necessary, including coddling truly evil powers while continually berating and pushing down their own peoples.
If you are a student of history, you would do well to consider that the Left demonizes Hitler while quietly ignoring Stalin. You would do well to keep in mind that leftist “peace” organisations protest Israel while sucking up to Castro, Ahmadinejad, and Arafat (may he rot in hell). And you would do well to remember that the moment someone claims to want to do something for you, to check their motives. You may not always like what you find.
I wish it were Stache that were running for President. From what I have read about him so far, I’d vote for him in a heartbeat, if his domestic policy positions are similar to his foreign policy ones. Perhaps someday…?
Wanderlust on August 15, 2008 at 11:50 PM
I hear what your saying.. but there is another path to appeciating America… the one I took…
My forefathers have been here litteraly since before the US existed… the family joke is we got kicked out of all the good countries of Europe (French Hugonauts)….
But I’m one who was lucky enough to travel around the world… and see what other countries are like.
Its when you realize how messed up the rest of the world is that you begin to really respect and move America… whether that knowledge comes from being born elsewhere… or just traveling… is immaterial..
Romeo13 on August 15, 2008 at 11:56 PM
One of the things I see criticized here and other places is the intrusive role of government in our daily lives. Some of the criticism is justified. In the ’80’s I spent a lot of time in Venezuela and Peru helping set up regional diagnostic centers for animal disease. It wasn’t until then, that I realized how fortunate we are in having the kind of national/state disease monitering/diagnostic facilities we have here, and how advanced they are, relatively speaking.. Sure, some of it is cumbersome and too repetitive, but I had always taken the quality of our health monitoring systems for granted. It isn’t a major issue, but one that we overlook because it is so good. With the threats we now face, we should all be thankful for some of the good things our governments do.
a capella on August 16, 2008 at 12:27 AM
Michael Hayden, cold?
The guy in charge of th4e NSA on 9/11?
He should have been fired for incompetence…or worse.
alphie on August 16, 2008 at 12:30 AM
Agreed. Rumsfeld tried to bring some fresh air into the Pentagon by bringing retired Gen. Peter Schoomaker in as the Army Chief of Staff. I wish we’d have more of that rather than recycling the same GO’s from one job to another (e.g. Gen. Casey? Gen. McNeil?) We could certainly use some fresh blood in the upper field grade and GO levels.
Send_Me on August 16, 2008 at 12:32 AM
Send_Me on August 16, 2008 at 12:32 AM –
Checkout the latest Army general officer promotion list. There is hope. They promoted “doers” not sinecures.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 12:42 AM
This assessment is based upon what? Your many years in the NSA? Your extensive experience in the intelligence community? Saying someone should have been fired without knowing what he knew, how he organized his organization, or any of the extenuating circumstances surrounding the events in question, is a bit ridiculous.
Send_Me on August 16, 2008 at 12:42 AM
He was supposed to keep us safe, send_me.
He didn’t.
Chop, chop.
alphie on August 16, 2008 at 12:44 AM
Send_Me on August 16, 2008 at 12:42 AM –
Beat me to it.
“little alphie” is one of our resident trolls. Has never walked the walk, but certainly likes to talk the talk.
Best to ignore the nit on the gnat on the a-hole of the Left.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 12:46 AM
So I’ve heard. It is welcome news. I was happy to hear some of the names on the board, as well as some of the names on the promotion list. Folks in the army are very much looking forward to when the last of the NCOs/officers from the Clinton years fade away. In general, they have a mentality that just doesn’t fit the current fight (e.g. too much politics, not enough focus on winning).
Send_Me on August 16, 2008 at 12:47 AM
Yes, my conversation did deviate from Russia, but the whole laundry list of bad decisions and contempt for the people won’t convince you any more than Huckabee’s record affected the Hucksters. Putin saw the truth when Bush saw his soul. We’re stuck with the guy and as much damage as he can do in his remaining months in office.
I want to be wrong and believe that democracy can take root in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I don’t see it. The people who live there are biding their time and waiting for us to leave so they can go back to killing each other. In the mean time, more soldiers die and get their legs blown off. Wars are expensive and they can no longer hide the inflation. Enough is enough with this Wilsonian crap. It took centuries of civilizing to develop democracy in Europe. Islam preaches stasis, making an equal case for failure of the stated goal. Results that lead to withdrawal need to be seen very soon.
Feedie on August 16, 2008 at 12:50 AM
To:
In 12:50 post above.
P.S.: The country won’t be broken if the elites don’t succeed in destroying it. Pessimists may not be popular, but Pollyannas are no more realistic.
Feedie on August 16, 2008 at 12:58 AM
“Chop, chop”? I’d like to know what you mean by this.
Also, yes, he was charged with being the Director of NSA; however, he did not work in a vacuum. Your analysis is a bit simplistic, to say the least. This is like blaming a Soldier for failures in Vietnam or not catching OBL. Like I say, it’s simplistic and unjust.
I’m trying to find a way to explain this in a better way, but it’s hard to find the reference point that we’ll both understand.
Send_Me on August 16, 2008 at 1:02 AM
Not to trivialize matters, but I wonder how many football games are won by coaches who tell their players having little discipline or hard training “We are gonna lose, dammit, we are going to get our butts handed to us on a plate” as opposed to coaches who tell their players with discipline and a lot of hard training “these guys are good, real good, but we can be better, we can do better if we focus. I have confidence in you guys, so let’s get out there and get it done!”
Yes, in diplomacy and miltary affairs…attitude…simple attitude…can make the difference between coming home or not coming home at all.
Pollyanna? No. Learned that from actually leading.
coldwarrior on August 16, 2008 at 1:07 AM
I guess some Americans see members of our military as deities that require worship, send_me.
And some of us just see them as government employees who are driving us into bankruptcy with their bloated budgets.
In the private sector..Hayden would have been fired on 9/12…and probably sued as well.
Should prove to be an interesting election.
alphie on August 16, 2008 at 1:16 AM
And, for who have you put your life on line? You can bad mouth me, but when you bad mouth young folks that are unselfishly going into harms way for this country, that makes me very angry and shows you for the coward that you really are.
Johan Klaus on August 16, 2008 at 2:01 AM
Plenty of Americans perform risky jobs well without the need for constant adulation, Johan.
The U.S. military can’t be as needy as you guys make them out to be…
alphie on August 16, 2008 at 2:15 AM
Sprechen Sie Deutsch? If you don’t, the only reason is because of the U.S. military. No job is a risky as the military in combat. Try Omaha beach or Iwo Jima or the Bataan death march, just to name a few. You need to study history and not from leftist web sites.
Johan Klaus on August 16, 2008 at 3:32 AM
The Soviets killed 95% of the Nazi soldiers who died during WWII, Johan.
America’s role in stopping Hitler was a small at best…and late.
What history books do you righties read, anyway?
Do they have lots of pictures?
alphie on August 16, 2008 at 3:42 AM
And how many of their own people did they kill? How many Japanese did they kill? They would have been toast if the U.S. had not given them aid and tied down the Germans on the western front. We then had to wait for them to get to Berlin as they fought their way past the old men and kids.
Johan Klaus on August 16, 2008 at 4:01 AM
95% credit for the Soviets, Johan.
Divide up the other 5% worth of credit however you see fit between America, France, Britain, etc.
Oh, and btw, the Soviets killed more Japanese troops than America did, too(see:why we begged Stalin to take on the 1 million Japanese troops in the Korean Peninsula).
The fantasies of the right are harmless…unless you actually base foreign policy on them.
alphie on August 16, 2008 at 4:14 AM
Military service has to be painted as an exceptional act of heroism so people keep doing it, even more so because it can no longer be described as an unconditional duty. Keep in mind that US society is based on “freedom” aka liberalism. Proclamations like “we must die so America may yet live” wouldn’t work in an individualist context.
GermanAtheist on August 16, 2008 at 4:35 AM
Oh, hallo! Die deutsche Sprache ist eine schöne Sprache und nur weil sich die Vereinigten Staaten der Sprache des britischen Kolonialreiches bedienen, heißt das nicht, dass die unsere prinzipiell nachrangig unter den westgermanischen Sprachen ist oder eine deutsche Hegemonie schlechtere Ergebnisse für Europa brächte.
GermanAtheist on August 16, 2008 at 4:41 AM
Ohne englische sprechende Länder wäre das ganze Deutschland gewesen, wie Ostdeutschland war. Ich errate Sie Deutsche haben sehr kurze Erinnerungen.
peacenprosperity on August 16, 2008 at 8:16 AM
Sie irren sich so es ist rediculous. Wo die Hölle bekommen Sie Ihre Philosophie, Howard zinn und noam chomsky? Das comminist Manifest? Schließen Sie sich bitte der Welt an, kommen Sie zur Wirklichkeit. Es ist ein wunderbarer Platz abgesehen von ocassionally, der die Notwendigkeit hat, sich gefährlich wahnsinnig zu befassen. Wie Sie.
peacenprosperity on August 16, 2008 at 8:39 AM
Und bezüglich Ihrer, alphie. Wenn Sie aus Ihrer Verschiebung an Starbucks aussteigen und zu Ihrem Elternteilkeller zurückgehen, lassen Sie bitte den Pudel allein. Es wird für die kranken kleinen Dinge nicht gemeint, die Sie dazu tun. Gehen Sie kaufen einen Schlag Puppe von Barry.
peacenprosperity on August 16, 2008 at 8:43 AM
You all are my heroes, however, I can’t now understand a word you are saying. :>
mimi1220 on August 16, 2008 at 9:07 AM
Feedie:
I am not a Pollyanna. But it seems to me that if those Republican Congressmen you spoke of really cared about the issue of border security as much as you say, they would have been raising hell about it long before Bush came along. I just think it is not fair to make it all about the president. You called him King George, that is the whole point, he is not a King. He is not our daddy either. There are limits to his power and authority and using him like a scapegoat to excuse the weaknesses and shortcomings of an entire political class is not fair or accurate.
Terrye on August 16, 2008 at 9:57 AM
alphie:
You do not know squat about WW2. The truth is those Russians were originally allied with the Nazis and would have remained so if Hitler did not turn on them. In fact Stalin killed thousands of Polish officers and hid their bodies in a mass grave.
The United States began to give military support to the Russians when they began to fight the Nazis, without that support Russia might well have fallen. And what is more the push from the west was lead by the Americans who suffered very high casualties in the process. That coordination was what brought down the Third Reich.
Terrye on August 16, 2008 at 10:02 AM
Hallo,Ich stimme aber ich denke auch, dass in einem Land wie den USA, jeder sollte Englisch sprechen.
Johan Klaus on August 16, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Meine Vermutung ist, dass Alphie ist Student der kommunistischen indoctination.
Johan Klaus on August 16, 2008 at 10:22 AM
Yep, it’s a pretty bad situation. I guess Georgia shouldn’t have picked a fight with them.
Personally I don’t think we should be involved beyond trying to bring the two sides together to negotiate a peace treaty.
Benaiah on August 16, 2008 at 10:35 AM
You honestly think that war is something where you add up the score and see who wins? I’d love to play chess against you. If you have all of your pieces, and I only have my king and queen and have you in checkmate, then I win, regardless of how many pieces you have. Seriously, you should consider studying warfare from a military perspective rather than an exercise of arithmetic.
Send_Me on August 16, 2008 at 10:44 AM
“Picked a fight”? No. Who do you think started the insurgency in South Ossetia? Who fueled the separatist sentiments, the “divide and conquer” strategy? Who set themselves up at the “peace-keeping” force in the region? Who acted as the benevolent provider of “freedom” for the Separatists by providing passports in Russia’s name, etc.? Answer: Russia. After the KGB fully succeeded in organizing and fueling a successful insurgency, given the violence done against the Georgians by the Separatists, the Georgians felt they had to act to maintain control of their lands, especially given how long they still had before becoming a NATO country. The Russians were waiting for this. Putin could use his stance as the “protector of the Separatists” to attack Georgia, which led to an invasion. Prediction: Russia will take control of both South Ossetia and Georgia, the result of a well-calculated plan by Russia, not Georgia.
Putin is brilliant. His timing: impeccable. Georgia has been applying for NATO status. Russia knew the US and allied countries would have to act if Georgia joined NATO. The pipeline of oil and natural gas into Europe, the Black Sea port, and the fact that Georgia is not adept to living by Russia’s leave, gave all the reason Putin needed. The Olympic games, a “peaceful” event that promises no outside aggression would be taken in Georgia’s aid as well as a media shroud to hide behind, provided the timing.
Send_Me on August 16, 2008 at 11:24 AM
Send_Me:
Perfect explanation. At least, based on what I (and probably you) can tell from sources.
It is simply naive to look at this conflict while ignoring the past decade or so of policies and statements coming from Moscow.
They wish to reconquer as much lost territory following the collapse of the Soviet Union as they can and Finlandize the remaining nearby countries. Frighten Western Europe as well.
Great Power politics pure and simple.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Ain’t that the damn truth…!
“You can’t handle the truth”…!
Haa HA …Bolton is but one of a veritable boat load of nere-do-wells [according to you] that have left the present administration and then spilt the beans on the Crawford genius.
J_Gocht on August 16, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Sure, most of them while after being captured and held as prisoner.
Yeah, I exagerrate only slightly.
Anyway, its Alphie.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 12:39 PM
alphie…you should know…
GermanAtheist, peacenprosperity and Johan Klaus from 8:16 to 10:22 AM; concern themselves mostly about the source of your education and the basis for your political philosophy. They primarily surmise you’re a product of having read Zinn, Chomsky and the Communist Manifesto.
I must add however… peacenprosperity on August 16, 2008 at 8:43 AM; was more than a bit harsh concerning your type of employment and how you spend you leisure time.
Being a first generation American my own self I’m well aware of how arrogant German’s like to revert to their “native tongue” when they wish to disparage the unwashed illiterate savages that surround them. My Father assisted many of his siblings, nieces and nephews to immigrate to the US after the “Big One”.
They never got it figured; that even a dimbulb like my own self might pick up the language after a period of time?
Other than that alphie; the generous ad hominem attack is pretty much par for the course!
J_Gocht on August 16, 2008 at 1:29 PM
Absolutely… did you catch the smiling Putin and the grinning Texas Genius shaking hands and exchanging pleasantry’s in the Olympic Stadium just the day before Putin dropped the hammer on Georgia?
J_Gocht on August 16, 2008 at 1:42 PM
Why do I think that if Bush issued a demarche calling for Russia to restrain itself in the region that the Bush haters would have accused him of causing the problem?
And then if Putin did indeed go in, it was purely a defensive reaction to the “neocons” trying to stir up trouble.
I can’t imagine why I have such thoughts.
SteveMG on August 16, 2008 at 2:00 PM
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