U.S. to Russia: How does a missile defense system in Poland sound?
posted at 8:08 pm on August 14, 2008 by Allahpundit
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A modest system — just 10 missiles in all — and the Poles appear to get more from it than we do, but the message is clear. Flag this story, because the left will surely be pointing back to it as a provocation that simply impelled Russia to act when Putin finally gets around to making his move on Ukraine or Latvia or whoever’s next on the list.
Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the United States had agreed to help augment Poland’s defenses with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors in the eastern European country…
While Washington says the defense system is meant to guard Europe against missile-armed states like Iran, the Kremlin feels it is aimed at Russia’s missile force, and [parliamentary foreign affairs committe chairman Konstantin] Kosachev told the Interfax news agency the deal will spark “a real rise in tensions in Russian-American relations.”…
Talking about the “mutual commitment” part of the agreement, Tusk said that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization would be too slow in coming to Poland’s defense if Poland were threatened and that the bloc would take “days, weeks to start that machinery.”
“Poland and the Poles do not want to be in alliances in which assistance comes at some point later – it is no good when assistance comes to dead people. Poland wants to be in alliances where assistance comes in the very first hours of – knock on wood – any possible conflict,” Tusk said.
That’s a brutal vote of no confidence in NATO, although I wonder if its target audience isn’t actually Bush and Rice. The U.S. hasn’t done, and likely won’t do, anything more for Georgia than provide humanitarian aid in the short term despite the military cooperation between the two countries over the past few years. This sounds like Poland’s way of saying that they expect more than that if their turn comes on the chopping block, particularly given the fact that the missile deal also includes a U.S. promise to help modernize their military. Is Bush prepared to unilaterally guarantee Poland’s security? Or rather, are the Democrats? The deal’s already gotten some static in Congress and the interceptors won’t be deployed for a few years yet, so whether Obama and Congress choose to follow through will signal the whole region about Hopenchange America’s willingness to stand up to Russia, needless to say.
Austin Bay has the nuts and bolts of the possible defense systems involved, none of which appear to pose any great obstacle to Russia beyond their having to fire off a few extra missiles to swamp the shield. Doubtless it’ll be used as a pretext, though, for Russia to build up its own “defenses,” which it certainly wouldn’t have done if not for this exceedingly menacing empty gesture.
Update: Ah, I missed this from the AP piece. Indeed, this deal is not about the missiles:
He said the deal also includes a “mutual commitment” between the two nations to come to each other’s assistance “in case of trouble.”
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Analogy: If the Canadians gave health care to the Democrats and the Democrats misused the health care through corruption and inefficiency, would you blame the Canadians for that?
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 9:50 PM
Your question is meaningless. The U.S. isn’t going to make that threat. It doesn’t have to. Quite frankly, after watching Ivan’s army in action, particularly as regards their poor discipline and lack of professionalism, about the only things they have going are brutality and numbers. I assume the rest of their military trains to the same standards. Nukes aren’t in the equation, unless Ivan’s famed quality control system has let a few out to jihadis.
a capella on August 14, 2008 at 9:50 PM
freevillage is a pretty smart person. I don’t agree with him most of the time, and I think he comes across as arrogant, but at least he is not alphie.
He is also from Russia so I would suspect he has lots of passion with this subject.
However, freevillage, we are Americans and you are living in our country so we tend to have passion as well.
carbon_footprint on August 14, 2008 at 9:50 PM
coldwarrior at 9:43 PM-
Well put. And to the jugular point.
Billy Jeff was more interested in getting his whistle wet than using national influence to help steer the crumbling Soviet system toward sanity.
As with the abandonment of post-Soviet Afghanistan, such derelections never breed anything but chaos.
profitsbeard on August 14, 2008 at 9:51 PM
Well, I suppose if we had invaded Russia we could have put a stop to that.
Nah, we did the best we could for you guys, but your culture of corruption was too deep and will take time to dissolve, except now, unfortunately, it’s festering again.
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 9:51 PM
coldwarrior:
I know there are civilian humanitarian aid groups in the region, but when the Russians are killing people there is no way civilians are going to be able to get around that country. Using the military is a lot like the Berlin Airlift. The military is there to assure not only that the food and the medicine and the materials get in, but that there is someone there who can distribute it. And the military presence might make the Russians think twice about going further than they already have.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 9:53 PM
Wait…you’re not talking about the RUSSIAN Communist Party, are you?
Oh, wait. You are. Huh.
Actually, my opinion is quite apposite, considering your challenging of other’s political viewpoints. I repeat, you would be more welcomed on hard left-wing sites like HuffPo, Daily Kos, DemoUnderground, etc. That is because right now proto-Communist leftovers and their offspring are sympathizing with thug-like actions against neighboring nations. They feel that the United States is better when it is threatened with destruction by a giant dictatorship moving its tanks through Europe, and they long for the days when they have someone whom they feel represents their best interests, despite their continued support coming from within the borders of the most free country on the planet.
So your calculations of whether others are conservative or not are roughly about as worthwhile as whether my pet parakeet thinks I need a haircut. You’re a Russian nationalist who whines about America while enjoying the freedom that Russia would never guarantee you. You’re a worm.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 9:53 PM
Using this line of thinking, the US should have done nothing after the invasion.
Because whatever criticism or response we level at Russia will result into a nationalist rallying of the people around their government.
This is setting the stage, as AP pointed out, for blaming the US for whatever actions Russia takes against us or our allies.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 9:53 PM
Uhm, that’s fine. Who said anything against passion? BTW, not that you meant ill but just to point something out to you. Your post implies my arguments are purely driven by my origin. This is a convenient way (for some, not necessarily you) to dismiss them and avoid dealing with them directly.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:54 PM
carbon_footprint:
I dunno, every since freevillage called my a piece of shit and stinking garbage {or something like that} I have not considered him/her/it to be a particularly reasonable person.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 9:55 PM
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 9:53 PM –
True. But outfits like Mercy Corps are still there. They have a lot of Georgians working with them. In the past two years they were even involved in assistance in South Ossetia, taking care of needs the Russian vassals would not.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:55 PM
I should say called me a piece of shit, etc. Preview is for the faint of heart.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 9:56 PM
coldwarrior:
It could be the US military is working with them even now. I think there is a lot of confusion about what is going on there right now.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 9:57 PM
I hope the Europeans are enjoying their close up of a REAL Imperialist Regime. Manga!
ronsfi on August 14, 2008 at 9:57 PM
Your posts confirm that.
*Now watch…prepare for “Quotes, please” in 3…2…1…*
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 9:58 PM
No. But the response should be measured. Not tiny, not small but measured. If you stop reading propaganda and actually look at what’s happening on the ground in Georgia, then you will realize that Russia is withdrawing its troops back to South Ossetia.
Nobody is overthrowing anybody in Tbilisi. Not that it means nothing bad here, everyone go home. But the situation isn’t as horrible as people portray it to be. There’s a lot of middle ground between doing nothing and installing nukes.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Nah, no need. You’re a known liar. I’ll try to remember not to respond to you, too. It’s hard when there’s no “ignore” feature.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 10:00 PM
Steve:
That is an old game. Blame Bush in particular or the US in general for anything that happens. We were either too aggressive or not aggressive enough. Too pushy or too neglectful.
The old fashioned approach of blaming the guys who started the whole damn thing has just gone right out the window.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:00 PM
The election isn’t over just yet.
hillbillyjim on August 14, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Russia isn’t going to risk starting a hot war with the US unless they believe we’ll back down and appease them. We’d win the war and/or it would go nuclear. So more likely we would enter a new cold war, except Russia is supplying energy to Europe now and has more leverage over them than in the past.
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Liberals will probably call this a provocation, but they usually get things backwards. This is a response. We’ve held far back from forming stronger ties with Eastern Europe, trying to avoid offending Russia. Now, just days after Russia’s little escapade in Georgia, Poland starts getting a missile defense system and a promise of more support.
This is part punishment for Russia, and part “peace through strength.” Russia will have a much harder time throwing its weight around if the US starts helping Poland and Georgia. The Georgia fiasco was an embarrassment to the US, but it was a really bad move for Russia.
I suspect our willingness to share missile defense and other military technology with the nations Russia wants in their empire is just killing Putin. Good.
theregoestheneighborhood on August 14, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Saakashvili: The all out sons-of-#itches, barbarians, and chronic drunks with no regard for human life, otherwise known as the Russians want to Impose ‘Munich-Type of Deal’
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Well, when you dismiss someone’s quoting of actual news articles as lies perpetrated by the vast Georgian propaganda complex, I would imagine you would believe so, yes. In freevillageworld, we lost the Cold War. In freevillageworld, Putin takes office in January. In freevillageworld, “*yawn*” is a perfect counter-argument when you’re cornered.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 10:04 PM
Even you and I don’t get into it that bad. :)
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 10:05 PM
I suppose I should know what you meant by the “carved in stone” remark–but I don’t!! Sarcasm? If so, it fell somewhat short I think.
jeanie on August 14, 2008 at 10:06 PM
Breaking news from Bendover Backwards News,(BBN)
The Liberal Party are demanding action!
The most powerful women in the Universe, Nany Pelosi,
screamin Dean and howling mad Reid are demanding
military action!
As Reid is quoted (fake that is!)that Reid demands action
on Georia,”I want this war lost before its even started!
haha.
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 10:07 PM
Not my intention. I would say your passion is largely fueled by your origin. Just like we are passionate about our country.
carbon_footprint on August 14, 2008 at 10:07 PM
boy,I’m on a roll tonite,that should be Georgia.
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 10:09 PM
Installing nukes?
We will deploy 10 missiles in Poland. Russian has thousands of missiles that can easily overcome that minimal shield.
This isn’t specifically about Georgia and you know it. Georgia is the culmination of matters.
It’s about a whole series of provocative actions and threats by Moscow against us and our European allies. It’s their continued support for Iran, it’s their threat to re-establish military relations with Cuba, it’s the suppression of opposition groups and figures, the murder of journalists.
Putin stated that the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century was the collapse of the Soviet empire.
You’re correct. We shouldn’t over-react; but we can’t continue as if nothing has happened.
It’s clear that Putin wishes to use the current situation to strengthen his country’s world position.
And that’s not good for anyone but Russia.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 10:10 PM
Asia Times Online has an article I think freevillage will just slobber over.
Yes. This person is actually advocating Putin being made president.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 10:11 PM
MB4:
I certainly hope not. I don’t need anymore enemies.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:12 PM
But doesn’t he live here now? My dad was (and still is) of German ancestry and he didn’t defend the Germans during war, he fought them.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 10:13 PM
Stand back! — our resident strategic mastermind is at work:
This missile shield threatens the Motherland!
Which missile shield? This one, of course:
Brilliance.
Cuffy Meigs on August 14, 2008 at 10:13 PM
But then you called me vacuous MB4. Told me to go henpeck my husband. Hurt my feelings. sniff sniff.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:14 PM
You may be right, but if not? What if our guys had been fired on and we found ourselves in a conflict in Georgia with Russia? If that were to happen we should at least have our supply routes secured and be capable of carrying the fight. As it was, Russia could have fired on our guys, the situation would have been much worse and we would have found ourselves in a precarious position in Georgia.
I don’t know what we knew or when, but it sounds as though we were caught off guard.
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 10:14 PM
I’m just a pussy cat inside.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 10:15 PM
From that notorious pro-Georgian anti-Russian news organization, the Associated Press (story link):
The foreign minister of Russia said Thursday that Georgia could “forget about” getting back its two breakaway provinces, and the former Soviet republic remained on edge as Russia sent tank columns to search out and destroy Georgian military equipment.
Yep, they’re pulling back and honoring the cease-fire.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 10:15 PM
Its clear that Putin wishes to use the current situation
to strengthen his country’s world position.
SteveMG on Aug 14,2008 at 10:10PM.
SteveMG: I’ve got a gut feeling Russia will not back down!
This is going to be pushed past who blinks first!
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 10:15 PM
Again, you don’t know sh!t. The 58th Army fighting in South Ossetia was smaller in numbers than the Georgian military. Yet the Georgians, trained, armed and clothed by the US and all very professional was dissolved with barely a fight.
Again, you’re a clueless moron who can only insult people based on their ethnicity. It’ll work here with some people willing to participate in a Republican circle jerk.
Here’s a picture that you will never see on Fox News. Two trucks loaded with professionals waiting to be checked by two unprofessional guys at an amoral checkpoint. Numbers my ass.
http://pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/pic/00h0wrez.jpg
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Yes, in Boston.
I think Boston is still considered US, no?
; P
I’ve lots of German blood too.
carbon_footprint on August 14, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Ok, I’m as American as most here… but some of you have some real blinders on…
Lets see, you condemn Russia as provocative because they MAY give military assistance to Cuba, which is off our coast, while not thinking that Americans doing MILITARY EXCERCISES IN GEORGIA are not provocative to the Russians?
We had stinkin Spec OPS guys IN GEORGIA Folks! We’re arming and Training Georgian troops. Right next door to Russia… but hey, we’re America, its OK cause they invited us… but of course, if Cuba invited Russia, or China, that NOT OK…
I love my country, but I’m not blind to her faults, or the stupidity of its leaders.
Oh, and for the record, its NOT the missles going into Poland that will be the problem from Russias viewpoint… its the RADARS that will give us a pretty much uninterupted view of a lot of their airspace… its like putting Russian radars in Mexico… which there is NO way we would stand for.
Romeo13 on August 14, 2008 at 10:17 PM
That just a role I play on Hotair from time to time.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 10:18 PM
Don Diego Vega (Zorro): If I give my lands to the people, where are we going to live?
Charlotte Taylor Wilson: Boston!
Don Diego Vega: Boston? You have to be kidding me… I was in Boston for a week, and I never heard a decent Mariachi playing.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 10:20 PM
And you’re good in that role. HotAir would not be the same without you, your humor and of course your quotes.
carbon_footprint on August 14, 2008 at 10:20 PM
MB4:
You are not a pussy cat. A big bad lion maybe, a man eater, but no pussy cat.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:21 PM
Training troops in Georgia is comparable to landing Russian bombers in Havana?
Putin threatened to re-establish military committments with Havana including landing bombers and using their facilities/ports for Russian ships.
The US had about 1,200 trainers training the Georgian military. We weren’t landing bombers there or docking our navy.
The two aren’t remotely comparable.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 10:22 PM
Romeo:
Oh please, half of Latin America is run by one raving commie or another.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:25 PM
On a thread a few days ago….I misread…sorry.
jerrytbg on August 14, 2008 at 10:25 PM
Except that we have no intentions of invading Mexico, Canada, and any other neighbor in the region for the purpose of adding to our territory. Nobody wants a direct confrontation with a nuclear power like Russia. Reagan summed up the best and only real option for dealing with threats like Russia–peace through strength.
Zeropeans protested stationing missiles in Europe as provocative, but it was terribly useful to be strong so that we could negotiate the Soviet Union down from their belligerence. Weakness breads contempt. Russia understands only one thing–force. However they are not looking for a direct confrontation with the US either and can be successfully reasoned with so long as we have a gun pointed at them.
BryanS on August 14, 2008 at 10:26 PM
And remember, the country of Georgia may have ports, but they open onto inland seas. And the Russians can pretty much lock that down if they want to. It is not as if we could launch an invasion from Georgia or something.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:27 PM
a man eater..
Terrye on Aug 14,2008 at 10:21PM.
Terrye: That verbal painting of MB4(man eater),
I’m glad I’ve installed a parental lock
on my brain,that vision would be disturbing!
haha:)
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 10:28 PM
Not to mention that Georgia isn’t a mortal enemy of Russia and hasn’t been providing support for guerilla movements throughout the region.
As Cuba did.
Comparing our actions in Georgia with the past history of Soviet involvement in Cuba and the threats by Putin to re-establish that involvement (landing long-range bombers?) is simply a reach.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 10:30 PM
caopfor:
Makes you think of the song doesn’t it?
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:30 PM
actualy, I could do more damage to Russia with 1000 spec op guys having direct overland routes into Russia…
Than you could do with Russian Air out of Cuba….
We can much more easily defend our airspace, than they can their land routes…
But even more important, to THEM there is no difference, which is why they are reacting the way they are…
Not saying what they are doing is right… but unless you understand your enemies motivations, you can seriously blunder into escalating the situation beyond what you intended… which is EXACTLY what is happening.
I maintain that our leaders missed, or didn’t care about, what the Russians think about the buffer states around them… even though they tried to make it abundantly clear.
What they see are their enemies getting closer and closer… and to put them into that situation NOW while we are engaged with Jihadists and the WOT, was stupid.
Romeo13 on August 14, 2008 at 10:32 PM
So, what, exactly, is St. Ronnie getting credited with these days??
Giving the Commies a black eye?
A decesnt first inning against the Commies, but no win?
Bringing Putin to power?
alphie on August 14, 2008 at 10:32 PM
Here’s the whole thing btw. http://drugoi.livejournal.com/2696421.html
I’ll translate captions:
1. A freedom lover who will never stop to resist and an amoral drunk
2. amoral drunk
3. 2 amoral drunk and two old ladies beaten to death. one is stil collecting her teeth.
4. assorted junk
5. drunks on an assorted junk
6.7.8.9.
car transporting weapons is stoppedamoral drunks hate clean light colored shirts10. professional policemen talk to an unprofessional general
11. the chinese
12. freedom lovers preparing to fight for the american freedom values… so long as they are through this amoral checkpoint. hey, drunk! could you let us through faster? we’re so tired of your unprofessionalism!
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 10:32 PM
Makes you think of the song doesn’t it?
Terrye on Aug 14,2008 at 10:30PM.
Terrye: Hall and Oats I think,eh?
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 10:32 PM
I’m somewhat tired of hearing who is at fault in the Georgian debacle. What do you suppose would happen if Vermont actually followed through on its(a small portion)wish to secede. Would we fight to keep it? Would we let it go? Surely we would not resort to killing its citizens nor they us. Would we turn the armed might of the greater US on these people, no matter the provocation, as Russia did to Georgia?—knowing full well that they could not stand against us. I would hope that we would have the compassion, wisdom,common sense and humanity to work it out some other way. Surely, Georgia was wrong but Russia was more wrong since it knew that Georgia could not withstand it. All that came out of the way it was “handled” was fear and more hatred.
jeanie on August 14, 2008 at 10:33 PM
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 10:22 PM –
Ya have to remember that this “pretext” stuff and Russia “feeling” threatened” is all part of long standing media assault which really cranked up on Wednesday, largely promoted by Russia, accepted by most of the major media, and now enshrined as “truth” in way too many quarters.
Our training Gerogians was no threat at all to Russia. But, having the Near-Abroad over the past several years becoming comfortable with the West and less dependent on Russia is more than Putin is willing to put up with.
We have differing views of power and morality here in America. In Russia today, there is no question about power and morality. Putin is power. Putin is morality.
If you want to put your kid safely to bed tonite and tomorrow nite, and you are Russian, never forget this.
This is how he maintains a huge segment of Russia under his thumb. The rest he pays for…in cash or perks.
All this idle talk of Russia being threatened tossed about by Putin, or Medvedev or Lavrov or any other Russian apologist is merely the selective application of the big lie, retold often enough, becomes accepted as irrefutable fact.
There are cracks in Putin’s armor. Find them. Exploit them. And leave the whiners and useful idots to their own games. If they get in the way. Roll right over them.
“Lead. Follow. But stay out of my way!” was an unofficial military dictum displayed at the old Seventh Army NCO academy in Bad Tolz years ago. The academy is gone, The sentiment remains.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 10:33 PM
I am just a pussy cat!
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 10:34 PM
Sorry, the reason Georgia and the other republics what help from the US is because they’re small and they’ve been repeatedly invaded and conquered by Russia/Soviet Union over the centuries.
You have the cart before the horse. Russia is the enemy of these countries; these countries aren’t the enemy of Russia.
Putin wants to re-establish the Soviet Empire. These newly-freed states don’t want to go.
So, should we just let them be swallowed up? Or Finlandized into submission?
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 10:35 PM
For emerging technologies such as, hypersonic and /or low orbit air/spacecraft.
Like AWACS on the ground…hehehe….
jerrytbg on August 14, 2008 at 10:35 PM
I’d say he get’s credit for the strategy we will use to defeat new Russian expansion again.
BryanS on August 14, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Bringing Putin to power.
alphie on Aug 14,2008 at 10:32PM.
alphie: We all know who brought Putin to power!
It was the Vast Left Wing Conspiracy Kabal!
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 10:37 PM
Let them go. We’ve got more than enough stupid in this country as it is.
wise_man on August 14, 2008 at 10:37 PM
No, but longterm you could build THEIR airbases up to the point where they could support American Air… then forward stage…
Remember, Russia is PARANOID! Thats what they will think, and why they will react the way they do…
To provoke them NOW? When we’re busy elsewhere, is overreaching.
Romeo13 on August 14, 2008 at 10:37 PM
Romeo:
They are paranoid. They think that NATO is a threat just because it exists. Are we supposed to shut down NATO just to appease the Russians?
Yes, they probably thought that the fact that Georgia and the United States had military ties was a threat. But then again, if they had not scared the bejeezus out of their former republics maybe they would not need the military assistance from the United States.
The east Europeans have a reason to fear the Russians, just like Taiwan has a reason to fear China and South Korea has a reason to fear North Korea.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:38 PM
Coldwarrior:
I agree (mostly), but we need to be smart.
Russia is a weak country; but they’ve still got nuclear weapons.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 10:38 PM
MB4:
My thoughts exactly.
But I am just a big old hippo. You don’t want to bother me.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:40 PM
I don’t understand your comment but I’m curious what you meant..?
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 10:41 PM
I contend we moved too fast. The natural economic prgression would have brought these countries into alignment with the West, without formenting a military confrontation.
WE PUT OUR TROOPS ON RUSSIA”S STINKIN BORDER! Thats what they see. We could have supported them in a number of ways without aiding them militarily NOW.
Question… Ossetians, with Russia’s influence, WANTS to be part of Russia. Is THEIR self determination a good enough cause for us to screw up the War against Islamic Extremists who WANT TO DESTROY OUR CULTURE?
Romeo13 on August 14, 2008 at 10:42 PM
Hell no. Let it go.
Ben & Jerry’s < Blue Bell
carbon_footprint on August 14, 2008 at 10:44 PM
Key for me is why fight this fight NOW?
Why put our troops into Georgia NOW?
IMO Russia would NOT have invaded except that they saw a direct threat in their Near Abroad becoming part of NATO…
So… wait a few years until things are more stable… IMO we are just plain trying to do too much at once.
Romeo13 on August 14, 2008 at 10:45 PM
Romeo13 on August 14, 2008 at 10:42 PM –
Look at the leadership of South Ossetia. Ossetians? No. Russians. From Defense and Security to the Minster level…many many former KGB/FSB/SVR Russian officers sitting in those positions. Have been for years.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 10:45 PM
shut down??? Heck no… Expand right up to their Borders? Can you see how they may construe that as a threat?
Romeo13 on August 14, 2008 at 10:47 PM
I don’t think we’ve moved too fast at all. Russia never let go of the idea that it could one day be restored to it’s previous glory. Since the Soviet breakup, they have not missed one opportunity to bring back the breakaway republics back into their fold. The west specifically held off Georgia’s admission into NATO in deference to Russian worries. This recent turn of events proves to me we didn’t move fast enough.
BryanS on August 14, 2008 at 10:47 PM
And the President of Georgia was American Educated and has an American Wife…
Your point?
Romeo13 on August 14, 2008 at 10:47 PM
Romeo:
I am sorry, but this stuff about we could do this or that so we just need to give Russia its buffer…why? What about the people who live there? Maybe they do not want to be Russia’s buffer.
I would say there is a greater chance that we will be putting a military presence in the region today, than there was a week ago.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:47 PM
Romeo:
Why now? The Russians have have been threatening Georgia since 1992. That is how many years?
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:49 PM
It’s not clear that the Ossetians truly want that. They don’t want Georgian nationalism. It remains to be seen if they want to be in Russia. Certainly this cannot be determined by its puppet government.
However, your basic question assumes anyone here truly thinks there’s some kind of an existential struggle. To them it’s mostly a good polemic point.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 10:49 PM
On first reading I thought it was contradictory.
When I read it the next morning, (I saved it),
I didn’t see what I had the night before…
I’m caulking it up to a number of senior moments…
Ug… don’t get old.
jerrytbg on August 14, 2008 at 10:51 PM
Romeo:
The think Poland is their freaking border. They think they own the Ukraine. No doubt they feel like Germany was stolen from them.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:51 PM
And what about Japan? It is close to Russia’s eastern seaboard. How long have we had a base there? Are they going to decide it is too close too?
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:52 PM
As for Vermont!!! I would miss it. It’s a beautiful state , has great maple syrup and one of these days it will be conservative the way it used to be before the influx of New Yorkers and hippies. So there!!! LOL
jeanie on August 14, 2008 at 10:54 PM
I’m for letting them go, but they have to leave the land behind.
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 10:55 PM
It would be great if we could fix all the world ills… but we can’t…
Are we invading pretty much all of Africa next week? I’m sure they want freedom too… or china? Heck, we surrendered in Lebanon in 84… We NEED TO INVADE! And what about Tibet?
I’m not talking about right and wrong here. I’m talking about what possible, and in the best interests of America…
What I’m hearing from a lot of people here is the entire NeoCon idea that American can fix the world… well… from what I see we can’t even fix ourselves.
Romeo13 on August 14, 2008 at 10:56 PM
Don’t those lefties just spread like locusts? Just look at all the California exiles turning it’s eastern neighbors left.
BryanS on August 14, 2008 at 10:57 PM
I think that most of the people who live there just want to be left alone. I doubt very much if they want to become part of some power struggle between east and west.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 10:58 PM
“..leave the land behind” Maybe that would work with the Ossetians. It would also rain on Russia’s parade big time. You have hit on the perfect solution!!
jeanie on August 14, 2008 at 10:59 PM
No one is saying that this is an existential threat to the US.
We are saying that it’s clearly evidence of irredentist policies by Moscow that could – could – be indications of moves against other republics.
There’s been a whole series of actions, statements and policies by Moscow (externally as well as internally) over the past decade that clearly show that it rejects (or doesn’t embrace) the 21st century vision of a globalized, integrated world community.
Why are they, just to pick out one example, helping Iran get nuclear weapons?
Cui bono?
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 10:59 PM
I don’t think we can really know what fomented Russia’s invasion. For example, maybe they’re intention is to open a route to Iran or secure that pipeline and the leverage it would provide. Perhaps they want better access to the Black Sea.
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 11:00 PM
Romeo:
I am not talking about fixing all the world’s ills. I do not want to get into some war with Russia. But I do not think that if we just leave them alone, they will leave us alone. I don’t think that at all. I think they are paranoid. I think they are resentful and I think they are greedy. They want power and oil and we are in their way. The idea that if we just stop dealing with Poland and the Ukraine and Georgia that the Russians will ease up is naive to say the least. They created this situation, not the other way around.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 11:01 PM
Exactly what do you propose? We can’t invade everyone but when the chips are down the only thing preserving Western democracy and capitalism is American power. I don’t think most of us want a hot war with a nuclear russia but a proxy war is certainly to be favored over outright appeasement.
phronesis on August 14, 2008 at 11:02 PM
Ah yes, Iran. Just note how helpful the Russians have been when dealing with Iran.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 11:02 PM
I think a big part of our assistance to Georgia is related to their participation in the WOT.
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 11:03 PM
Romeo13 on August 14, 2008 at 10:47 PM –
To elaborate on your reference to Saakashvili, my point is that the President of Georgia has never said he was American. Russia has stated many times that Ossetians are Russian. The KGB/FSB/SBR officers now in place in Ossetia were intitially installed under the guise of their being Ossetians. Merely “Russians” who decided to move there.
The ruse over the past several years was that there was this indigenous group of dislocated Ossetians who were merely seeking autonomy and independence. This has been part of the Putin Near Abroad program for years. If you can’t find locals to climb aboard the Russia is our Saviour bandwagon…make them, falsely document them if need be…bring in ringers if you have to.
Rather than work with the Tblisi government (almost impossible under Saakasjvili’s predecessor, I’ll admit) to be Georgian citizens within a federal framework, recognizing both Ossetian and Abkhazian “claims” and rights under a federal system, giving a large measure of autonomy within that federal system, something Saakashvili has been attempting since he was elected, the “Ossetians” with Russian backing and support, held out for all or nothing, and raised a lot of hell in Georgia in the process, banditry to outright warfare.
It was Saakashvili’s attempt to end the banditry in Tsinkinvali. to restore order under a federal establishment, that was used by Russia as a pretext for war.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 11:04 PM
Trying not to. :)
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 11:08 PM
I read that the Russians were bombing Georgian villages from South Ossetia. They probably wanted to provoke the Georgian government.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 11:10 PM
To plays devils Advocate…from their perspective…
Iran is NO threat to them… all the Iranian rhetoric is towards Israel, and America. May be shortsighted… but a Nuclear Iran would keep us busy for many years, without being a threat to Russia itself.
Realpolitik envisions that all the players are rational, which in Iran’s case is, I think, a miscalculation on Putin’s part.
What we have are four diametricly opposed worldviews in the world right now…
America? We need to do what right…
Russia? We need to do whats listen to our own paranoia, we must do to save ourselves, including creating another empire…
Islam? We need to bring about the apocolypse to bring on the new Caliphate…
Oh, and China… which I can’t seem to get a real handle on…
Everyone else are pretty much just bystanders hoping none of the four big players shoot them in a driveby….
Romeo13 on August 14, 2008 at 11:11 PM
The Clinton administration really screwed us. They reneged on initial pledges not to expand NATO into former Warsaw Pact countries. Then they compounded that error by using NATO (which had always been a defensive alliance) against the Serbs in Kosovo.
The Bush administration f*cked up too. They supported efforts by the Kosovars to declare their independence earlier this year.
At this point there is little that can be done to patch up the damage. Welcome to Cold War 2.0.
Mike Honcho on August 14, 2008 at 11:11 PM
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