U.S. to Russia: How does a missile defense system in Poland sound?
posted at 8:08 pm on August 14, 2008 by Allahpundit
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A modest system — just 10 missiles in all — and the Poles appear to get more from it than we do, but the message is clear. Flag this story, because the left will surely be pointing back to it as a provocation that simply impelled Russia to act when Putin finally gets around to making his move on Ukraine or Latvia or whoever’s next on the list.
Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the United States had agreed to help augment Poland’s defenses with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors in the eastern European country…
While Washington says the defense system is meant to guard Europe against missile-armed states like Iran, the Kremlin feels it is aimed at Russia’s missile force, and [parliamentary foreign affairs committe chairman Konstantin] Kosachev told the Interfax news agency the deal will spark “a real rise in tensions in Russian-American relations.”…
Talking about the “mutual commitment” part of the agreement, Tusk said that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization would be too slow in coming to Poland’s defense if Poland were threatened and that the bloc would take “days, weeks to start that machinery.”
“Poland and the Poles do not want to be in alliances in which assistance comes at some point later – it is no good when assistance comes to dead people. Poland wants to be in alliances where assistance comes in the very first hours of – knock on wood – any possible conflict,” Tusk said.
That’s a brutal vote of no confidence in NATO, although I wonder if its target audience isn’t actually Bush and Rice. The U.S. hasn’t done, and likely won’t do, anything more for Georgia than provide humanitarian aid in the short term despite the military cooperation between the two countries over the past few years. This sounds like Poland’s way of saying that they expect more than that if their turn comes on the chopping block, particularly given the fact that the missile deal also includes a U.S. promise to help modernize their military. Is Bush prepared to unilaterally guarantee Poland’s security? Or rather, are the Democrats? The deal’s already gotten some static in Congress and the interceptors won’t be deployed for a few years yet, so whether Obama and Congress choose to follow through will signal the whole region about Hopenchange America’s willingness to stand up to Russia, needless to say.
Austin Bay has the nuts and bolts of the possible defense systems involved, none of which appear to pose any great obstacle to Russia beyond their having to fire off a few extra missiles to swamp the shield. Doubtless it’ll be used as a pretext, though, for Russia to build up its own “defenses,” which it certainly wouldn’t have done if not for this exceedingly menacing empty gesture.
Update: Ah, I missed this from the AP piece. Indeed, this deal is not about the missiles:
He said the deal also includes a “mutual commitment” between the two nations to come to each other’s assistance “in case of trouble.”
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10 interceptors of questionable reliability are not a threat to Russia. A well armed Poland might give them pause if the U.S. does indeed modernize the Polish armed forces which sounds like a go.
Yakko77 on August 14, 2008 at 8:13 PM
Yeah, the Left is already investing in the “It was the Georgians doing the shooting” meme, got a few messages from some moonbats in that vein today. Never met an evil vicious murdering thug that they will not defend.
bbz123 on August 14, 2008 at 8:14 PM
It’s not the missiles, it’s this:
The Polish Prime Minister said the deal also includes a “mutual commitment” between the two nations to come to each other’s assistance “in case of trouble.”
Gee, “in case of trouble”? Like a flood, earthquake?
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 8:15 PM
We need to move our European bases eastward to shore up Poland and the Ukraine.
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 8:16 PM
ASAP
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 8:17 PM
George W. Bush: How does a missile defense system in Poland sound to you, Pooty Poot?
Tsar Putin: How does it sound to you if I just take Poland by ground like I did Georgia with you doing nothing, Mr. Hat with no Cattle?
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 8:17 PM
**sigh** I’m really going to miss cowboy diplomacy.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 14, 2008 at 8:18 PM
your collie talks!?!
Kevin M on August 14, 2008 at 8:18 PM
Sounds like a death threat against Poland to me.
aero on August 14, 2008 at 8:19 PM
There’s no way the Russians could take Poland.
Afghanistan times 10.
And we wouldn’t just be giving Stinger missiles to the Poles either. It’d be much, much more.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 8:19 PM
Are the neocons still trying to install their pork trough in Poland?
Too funny.
The Poles can always sell those duds for scrap, I guess.
alphie on August 14, 2008 at 8:20 PM
Tee hee! We’ll toast to Putin in Warsaw, alphie!
Allahpundit on August 14, 2008 at 8:24 PM
Sure, that’s why your boy Putin wets his depends at the thought of them.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 8:25 PM
Hanging-out at HotAir long?
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 14, 2008 at 8:26 PM
Missile defense is all well and good, but it seems like a tank defense system would be more useful.
redshirt on August 14, 2008 at 8:26 PM
Welcome to the worlds biggest game of RISK. :)
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand GO!
ThePrez on August 14, 2008 at 8:26 PM
Well, so much for the 21st century being the end of great power politics and the arrival of economic interdependence, globalization and international co-existence.
That didn’t last long.
Gee, I wonder who the left will blame for this?
Let me think…..
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 8:28 PM
And we need to quit propping up the local Germany economies near the bases when we get little support in return.
Wethal on August 14, 2008 at 8:30 PM
The alternate reality you live in is interesting. These “pork troughs” are so ineffective that the very presence of them in Poland is making Putin sh*t his pants.
amerpundit on August 14, 2008 at 8:31 PM
Alphie, you need to get back to your bridge….
mo_gunslinger on August 14, 2008 at 8:33 PM
Small token anti-missile array. Token. Somebody in DC better start thinking on a grand scale and soon. We are going to get tokened to death otherwise, and so are a lot of our new allies.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 8:34 PM
Not this though:
The Polish Prime Minister said the deal also includes a “mutual commitment” between the two nations to come to each other’s assistance “in case of trouble.”
Sure, it’s vague; but certainly something for the Russians to think about.
Russia knows it can’t take Poland. Well, it could; but it won’t be able to hold on to it. The Poles will fight the hated Russians until the end of time.
And we can provide assistance.
But it does send a signal to the other East Europeans that the US is in the game.
It’s a small step; but an important first one.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 8:38 PM
No doubt. I wonder if that’s the primary reason we haven’t moved them yet. Probably we’re also concerned about the Russian reaction to a buildup in Poland and, hopefully, the Ukraine, but after Georgia, who cares what Russia thinks. Let’s move our troops in, set up camp, expand and harden the new facilities while creating an air strip, etc. Russia can bitch and moan, but that’s about all they can do.
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 8:39 PM
I’m putting all my pieces on
AustraliaPoland. I’ll you out from there…. /Risk geek >mylegsareswollen on August 14, 2008 at 8:42 PM
If Russia invades Poland let’s be there waiting for them, but if we are there, Russia isn’t likely to try.
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 8:42 PM
I don’t think you are just wondering as you are too smart for that.
What leader in any Eastern Europe, in his right state of mind anyway, would trust the U.S. anymore, when we have done little more than diddly squat for Georgia?
Maybe the Poles might, just might, trust us if we relocated our German based troops to eastern Poland?
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 8:45 PM
It’s a small step; but an important first one.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 8:38 PM
Yes. But we need a committment here at home for the follow through.
We need also to look at Kazakhstan, and Ukraine, and the Baltic nations…and we need to get old Europe to sit down with new Europe, and soon. A short instructive lesson in reality taught by new Europe to old Europe needs to be done immediately.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 8:45 PM
Ya beat me to it.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 8:46 PM
Yet Russia despises any US attempt to make and field this missile defense system.
It makes you wonder.
wise_man on August 14, 2008 at 8:49 PM
Your solution is OK but mine is better. I will put a rope made in Russia around alphie’s scrawny neck, but him up on a stool and then shoot the legs off the stool. Adios.
Tuco on August 14, 2008 at 8:51 PM
Flag this story,because the Left will surely be pointing
back to it as provocation that simply impelled Russia to act
when Putin finally gets around to making his move on Ukraine
Interesting:
The world needs to know,including the Left,that the there was no need for a missiles,or a missisle shield in Europe!
But now, all the talk is over,the guessing game has come to
full friutation,only a strong robust missisle shield,and
missile defence system is now needed ASAP!
I remember watching the nightly news,when at the time,
President Ronald(Raygun,StarWars) Reagan was introducing
SDI,Star Wars,
and it scared the living h#ll out of the Ruskies!
If there was ever a more urgent time to missile up Europe,
its now!
The Ruskies opposed the strategic defence initiative by
the US,and thats when the West was under the impression,
that the USSR was now going to be a good world citizen,
by their very own actions they have now showed the world,
that Putin all along was thinking of dominated Europe once
again!
And Liberals,the USSR was claiming the upper north for oil
exploration as theirs,less than a year ago!
And now we no why Russia was flying its bombers so close
to US borders once again!
All of this,in the last year by the Red Bear has been
calculated and deliberate!
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 8:53 PM
Poland has invested heavily in its air force, they have recently added F-16’s to compliment there formidable Mig-29’s, add lots of training with NATO and US squadrons and the poles present a very capable deterrant.
dmann on August 14, 2008 at 8:56 PM
If Russia….
FloatingRock on Aug 14,2008 at 8:42PM.
FloatingRock: I was thinking of that today,brilliant idea!
Park the armour on Poland’s border,like the
Russians did in East Germany,WW2!
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 8:56 PM
Agreed on the “mutual commitment” point.
As for provocation, I’ll give you 10 Patriots in Poland, and raise you by four ABL’s flying 24/7 on station over the North Pacific up through the Pole, and two stationed at Ramstein AB. That is, if the stupid Dems will let us actually build and deploy the system.
Game?
Wanderlust on August 14, 2008 at 8:59 PM
The Polish diplomats used words like remembrance, never again and not like Georgia they’re not.
Speakup on August 14, 2008 at 8:59 PM
dmann on August 14, 2008 at 8:56 PM –
From what I’ve read the Poles are no sluggo’s…pretty much top notch. Give them the tools and the training, the northern plains of Europe will be safe. Getting Ukraine into the NATO loop, with Poles assisting, might work well. Have to move fast. Russia is a bit angry about Ukraine providing a lot less fuel for their fleet at Sevastopol than Ukraine promised. The Russian Duma and of course Putin, may be moving soon for legislation/declaration to annex the Crimea from Ukraine and return it to Russia. Cannot let that happen.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:02 PM
And Russia will counter by sending advanced missile systems to Iran.
We’ll counter by sending material to Israel that we denied them earlier.
And thus the chess game starts…
Only, it’s not a game.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 9:02 PM
Oops,that should be armor,not armour!
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 9:03 PM
Stick your head in a blender and press “Puree”.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 9:04 PM
If Poland is a NATO member they should be full fledged NATO members and there should be no equivocation about our mutual defense obligations. Arming and training Poland’s military is essential but stationing a sizable force of our own there should remove any doubt about our commitment and deter Russian aggression.
Maintaining our posture in old Europe may be interpreted by Russia as an indication that we still draw the line there rather than to the east.
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 9:06 PM
How about amour? We could all always use more of that, particularly at a time like this. :)
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Eastern Europe knows Russia best.
They aren’t going back into its maw.
profitsbeard on August 14, 2008 at 9:07 PM
As many in Russia were saying all along, the missile defense system in Eastern Europe was not intended against Iran. It was intended against Russia.
A reasonable approach for Russia is to stop listening to the US’ threats. The US never did anything good for Russia. They never will. Withdrawal from Georgia into South Ossetia is in Russian interests, so it’s on this basis that they should do it.
If the US is so insane that they threaten a nuclear balance in response to admittedly one very bad act by the Russians, then that should be take into consideration. No new arms race, of course. A sufficient number of nukes to guarantee the MAD. If that’s not possible, which at this moment is unlikely, nuclear weapons should be disseminated to other countries.
You can’t allow to live in the world where one country controls your own existence. If the idiot in Washington don’t understand it now, then it needs to be demonstrated.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:08 PM
How about amour?
MB4 on Aug 14,2008 at 9:06PM.
MB4: I have to admit,I was thinking of military porn MB!
As in,oh nice amour armor! haha:)
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 9:09 PM
I don’t see the cost of ammo going down anytime soon.
TexasDan on August 14, 2008 at 9:10 PM
I still think my way is better. Maybe we could do both.
Tuco on August 14, 2008 at 9:10 PM
One thing we need to do is to somehow break or weaken the support that Putin has among the Russian people. Something like 80%+ of the Russians support his policies.
And that was before this action. My guess is he’s up in the 95% approval ratings.
As Lincoln said, our problems are anew, we must think anew.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 9:10 PM
Semi-literacy is as much a problem as irrationality, obviously.
Iran? Pakistan? France? Britain? Israel? Russia? India? China? The U.S.?
What the hell are you babbling about bonehead?
profitsbeard on August 14, 2008 at 9:12 PM
We saved the sons-of-#itches from the Germans. Big mistake.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 9:13 PM
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:02 PM
Agreed, time to rotate a few of the USAF squadrons based in Germany over to Poland on a permant schedule. Forward deployment of TAC assets would do wonders in short measure to underscore our commitment to the Poles and give reason for Russia to think twice about anymore adventurism.
dmann on August 14, 2008 at 9:13 PM
What do you think nuclear threats from the US will do to it?
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:13 PM
No, you didn’t.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:14 PM
I think a three ring circus is coming up,and the Olympics
has been the perfect grand distraction!
1- Russia’s sh#t distrubing.
2-Hisbullah firing rockets into Israel.
3- Iranians closing the Hormuz straights.
And,I think the USSR are in co-hoots with Persia!
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 9:14 PM
Only because they’re either misinformed or their idiots. How can 10 interceptors stop thousands of Russian missiles? It’s absurd!
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 9:14 PM
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:14 PM
Mars is amazing!
dmann on August 14, 2008 at 9:15 PM
Even if this was in the works before, it is an important gesture. The US has also committed to putting a miltary base in Poland. Putin musn’t be allowed to reconstitute the USSR, and the sooner we end his ambitions the better.
phronesis on August 14, 2008 at 9:15 PM
FloatingRock wrote:
I haven’t been following the Georgia conflict closely enough, but shouldn’t have this been done in Georgia?
If the US sent some armed forces and equipment along side Georgian troops and put a up a blockade warning the Russian military not to cross the border or engage the Georgian -American forces. And if they did they risked a conflict with US military power. Russia wouldn’t have risked invading Georgia then right?
gumble on August 14, 2008 at 9:17 PM
Yes we did. Without all the supplies we sent the sons-of-#itches the Germans would have crushed them, particularly if we had held out on going after the Germans so much till later.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 9:17 PM
Classic “prisoners dilemma” move by Bush. The incentive to cooperate is overcome by the threat of punishment, leading to the possibility of a cooperative outcome.
Putin needs a little pin prick in his side. He is the classic KGB operative and he will understand this move and more importantly, understand whats to come with continued Russian behavior.
He has been maneuvering to this position for years. He is patient and thinks he can win the game. He just might if we allow ourselves to be distracted.
Like it or not, there is more of this to come.
Inzax on August 14, 2008 at 9:17 PM
I’ll let Allah be offended at the accusation that his title for the thread makes zero sense. But he won’t be. Because you don’t know sh*t about how the MAD works.
10 interceptors will be more than 10 fairly soon. And they can’t defend against the first strike, but they can potentially defend against a counter-attack by the Russian forces significantly weakened by the first strike by the US.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:17 PM
*yawn*
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:18 PM
Same trolls, different day.
Let me guess, you guys are just escaping the massive traffic on your own blogs.
reaganaut on August 14, 2008 at 9:20 PM
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:13 PM –
Medvedev, from a coalition of parties, some not having a lot in common, pulled over 70% of the 2008 vote, with many parties and candidates proscribed from running or offering candidates.
Having spent a bit of time with a few Russian graduate students over the past couple days, grad students with recent experience in Russia, with daily contact with families and friends in Russia, there is no 80% backing for Putin. Putin’s “siloviki” support him and will as long as the money flows. After that? If they see Putin is putting their wealth in danger? Putin becomes meaningless.
Putin’s biggest danger is having the money flow stopped or curtailed. No grease. No Putin.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:20 PM
Well, it doesn’t matter that you’re not very well informed on the subject. Do you at least have a strong opinion on whose fault it is?
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:20 PM
The US never did anything good for Russia.
freevillage on Aug 14,2008 at 9:08PM.
freevillage: The US had poured millions and millions of
green backs into Russia,and helped keep the
their stock piles of spent fuel rods safe!
At a time when Liberal Democrats were running
the show!
America didn’t do what?
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 9:22 PM
I think you’re preaching to the choir here. I have said numerous times that there’s no free elections in Russia. Medvedev was never truly elected, let alone with 70% of the vote.
My question is very simple. Assuming the support for the current Russian government is very weak (which it isn’t, but let’s stipulate that), what do you think will happen when the US starts threatening to go nuclear?
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:23 PM
mo_gunslinger on August 14, 2008 at 8:33 PM
We need a bigger bridge!
dmann on August 14, 2008 at 9:24 PM
For all of those in awe of the mighty Russians for some strange reason, five things defeated the Germans in the east, lend-lease, the Winter of ‘41/’42, lend-lease, poor OKH decisions, and lend-lease.
I know, I know, that’s not the party line you clowns hear at your meetings.
reaganaut on August 14, 2008 at 9:26 PM
You do realize the amount of supplies the U.S. sent to the Soviets during WWII? Well, you must not to make a statement like that. Sure, the Soviet T-34 and masses of Soviet troops fought the bloodiest war in history but how do you suppose those tanks and troopers kept supplied?
Yakko77 on August 14, 2008 at 9:26 PM
We also didn’t go after the all out sons-of-#itches, barbarians, and chronic drunks with no regard for human life, otherwise known as the Russians, when we could have gone through them like a hot knife through butter.
I understand the situation. Their (the Soviet) supply system is inadequate to maintain them in a serious action such as I could put to them. They have chickens in the coop and cattle on the hoof — that’s their supply system. They could probably maintain themselves in the type of fighting I could give them for five days. After that it would make no difference how many million men they have, and if you wanted Moscow I could give it to you. They lived on the land coming down. There is insufficient left for them to maintain themselves going back. Let’s not give them time to build up their supplies. If we do, then . . . we have had a victory over the Germans and disarmed them, but we have failed in the liberation of Europe; we have lost the war!
- George Patton
Nevertheless, Patton knew that the Americans could whip the Reds then — but perhaps not later. On May 18 he noted in his diary: “In my opinion, the American Army as it now exists could beat the Russians with the greatest of ease, because, while the Russians have good infantry, they are lacking in artillery, air, tanks, and in the knowledge of the use of the combined arms, whereas we excel in all three of these. If it should be necessary to right the Russians, the sooner we do it the better.”
- This article originally appeared in Issue Number 53 of National Vanguard Tabloid in 1977.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 9:26 PM
Well, it doesn’t matter that you don’t provide any argument to those who disagree with you.
…and by the way, where exactly did all the foreign aid to Russia come from after the Soviet Union collapsed? I’m pretty sure I saw a big package marked “anti-starvation supplies” with a US stamp on it.
And if you are too thick to figure it out, that’s called hyperbole in the form of gross underexaggeration. I understand you’re a Russian nationalist. I just don’t understand why you’re not in the nation of Russia. Well, I have an idea, but it’s something that doesn’t really need to be said, now, does it?
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 9:28 PM
I love it. Especially coming from conservatives. I know you aren’t ones, but since you pretend to be I say it. So the US government can’t even distribute mail very well within the US, but it does frigging miracles abroad. I don’t even have the word to describe this stupidity and lack of any understanding of even the fundamentals of your own supposed core beliefs.
Foreign help goes primarily to bribe foreign leaders and get favors for the American business. Not all American business, only those companies who are best friends of politicians in power. I have volunteered in Russia for the “radical pro-Western” party in the early 90s. I have never supported “help” from the West. Free trade is all the help that Russia needs. And no, I don’t mind fair criticism of Russia on legitimate issues, such as occupation of virtually all Georgia as opposed to just South Ossetia.
But people here just get more and more insane. In the heat of the moment we’ll be scrapping the decades old security system in Europe. Talk about disproportionate response.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:30 PM
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:23 PM –
Simple. We DON’T threaten to go nuclear. We make no threats at all. We do. We do in conjunction with those nations who see Putin for who he really is…not Pootey-Poot anymore, but Tsar Vladimir I ruling a revanchist Russia. We hit him where he is currently weakest. There isn’t enough bread in Moscow for the average Russian on the street working to survive, working to enrich an oligarch.
The seeds of revolution in Russia are in no way dead.
Play to Putin’s weaknesses, not to his strengths.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:30 PM
So you got you head out of your ___ just long enough to yawn. Congratulations.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 9:31 PM
Virtually all food assistance was sold on black market. By which I don’t mean some underground spaces. Simply street markets selling goods not intended for sale.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:32 PM
Patton…
MB4 on Aug 14,2008 at 9:26PM.
MB4: There was a scene in the Patton movie,where Patton
was celebrating with the Ruskies,he had a few choice
words on the Ruskies,and dispised them!
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 9:32 PM
It could have been done, but on the other hand Georgia isn’t a member of NATO and we had a very small footprint there. The few we had there could have acted as human shields but that not a safe way to operate. Really, our goal should be to NOT get in a conflict with Russia, but rather to deter one. If we had an air base in the Ukraine and a naval capabilities in the black sea that would give the Russians pause and prevent them from closing Georgian ports, then we could enlist Georgia into NATO and use the Ukraine and the Black Sea to supply NATO forces in Georgia. In that event I think it would have been more practical to defend Georgia and, because of that, Russia probably wouldn’t have invaded and risked war with the US and NATO.
FloatingRock on August 14, 2008 at 9:33 PM
The only opinion that any reasonable person could possibly have is that the fault is with the all out sons-of-#itches, barbarians, and chronic drunks with no regard for human life, otherwise known as the Russians.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 9:33 PM
Many in Russia? Yeah, the fascists like Putin and his thugs.
It’s 10 missiles.
As to never doing anything for Russia? Among other things, after the collapse of the Communists, we and the West gave billions in aid and loans to Moscow.
We allowed Russia into the G-7 to get more favorable trade agreements and policies.
Your defense of this regime is astonishing? Is the left’s hatred of Bush so strong that you can’t think straight?
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 9:36 PM
Let me ask you this. If the US does what you think it should do, and the support for Putin in Russia goes up, will you be prepared to say those US actions were wrong?
I’m not saying would you undo them. Just would you say they were wrong?
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:37 PM
So, if the US gives aid to Russia and the Russian mafia (folks like Putin) steal the aid, who’s to blame for that?
The neocons?
No, the people who stole the aid we gave them – the KGB/Mafia types – are now running the damned country.
And you direct your criticism at the US.
Amazing.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 9:37 PM
I stopped reading here.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:38 PM
We’re supposed to base our policies on Russian domestic opinion?
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 9:38 PM
If it weren’t so serious, it might be funny or at least ironic. Given Russia’s paranoia, I wonder what they would do? Can they afford and would they want a confrontation with us? would they attack Poland? Can we afford a confrontation with them? Do we want to commit to that level? Russia might and then…well, that’s really scarey. I bet Europe is holding its breath. But it’s about time they had to sit up and pay attention. Ya’ know, I’m scaring myself thinking about all the possible ramifications of this. Over reacting???? Certainly hope so!!!
jeanie on August 14, 2008 at 9:39 PM
OK. If the Democrats in Washington adopt the universal health care, and it will make the healthcare in this country worse because the bureaucracy is inefficient, because there’s unlimited demand and limited supply, because, you know… of the logic of the matter, who will be to blame?
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:40 PM
These things just need to be carved in stone.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Really. How many billions in bailouts did you get from the IMF? I lost count. And who had the loudest voices in approving them? I know the US Treasury officials and IMF directors barely talk, so maybe you can clear that up.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 9:41 PM
more and more insane…..
freevillage on Aug 14,2008 at 9:30PM.
freevillage: You must have nightmares at night,just think,
people from other countries like me,have the
same beliefs and world opinions as American
Republicans!
If its not the koolaid,it must be the brain-
washing of indocturnated Liberals!
canopfor on August 14, 2008 at 9:41 PM
If freevillage had a world of his own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is because everything would be what it isn’t. And contrary-wise; what it is it wouldn’t be, and what it wouldn’t be, it would. You see?
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 9:42 PM
Yeah, well, I stopped reading here:
You’re on a conservative site, you worthless little puddle of congealing douche. If all you can do is challenge the integrity of others, maybe you’d be better off at HuffPo or Democratic Underground. I hear they’d be very sympathetic to you there. Wonder why that is?
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 9:43 PM
Fault? I’ll bite.
For not pouring in necessary and needed techological and finacial expertise into Russia under Yeltsin, for not opening up markets and exchanges with Russia in the Yeltsin era, for not being more active in assisting Russia move from the cumbersome ossified Soviet-system to a real wage and earnings system…pretty much most of the 1990’s. Pick who was in charge for most of the 1990’s.
The small window was never opened wider. Instead, the apparatchiki and nomenclatura pretty much kept their sinicures, and their perks, and capitalism was never allowed to form nor flourish. After Yeltsin, as imperfect as he was, the gournd had been laid, over the frustrations of many many Russians, that made the promise of Putin all the more acceptable. Yet, even though Moscow is the most expensive city in the world, has multi-million dollar condos, and fleets of Escalades and Mercedes, night clubs that put Vegas to shame, imported expensivbe trinkets in store front in all the fashionable shopping districts..the average Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov is still sucking hind tit…
Russia was prevented from being Russian…it simply became the private property of Putin and those loyal to him. Not a big change from Stalin’s day, or Breshnev’s, except the purges and show trials and use of psychiatric wards for dissenters toned down a bit.
As for Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov, Putin’s visions of grandeur in a restored Russia, a restored imperial Russia, isn’t going to put borscht in their bowl, but it will put caviar and Crystal in the bellies of his “siloviki” associates.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:43 PM
Not us. The Communist Party who had the majority in the Parliament and ran budget deficits all the way into 1998. Money from IMF was used to pay for their programs.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:43 PM
If the Canadians gave the health care to the Democrats and they abused it, would you condemn the French for providing the assistance?
And if you don’t think Putin is a fascist, then you probably think Bush is one, right?
Extreme ultra-nationalist who invades smaller countries out of nationalist purposes, murders and arrests opponents, control the economy and silences dissent.
Yeah, that’s a fascist to me.
SteveMG on August 14, 2008 at 9:44 PM
I think that you stopped reading long before that, anything other than propaganda put out by the all out sons-of-#itches, barbarians, and chronic drunks with no regard for human life, otherwise known as the Russians.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 9:45 PM
I think there will be more deals like this in the future. The Russians think they can scare everyone into going along with them, but the truth is it can have the opposite effect. People may look for ways to avoid being next on the list.
BTW, I heard on Fox that Bush was taking some flak for being too aggressive for letting the military take care of the humanitarian aid effort. Like, who else is going to do it?
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 9:45 PM
The same way the US doesn’t want to get in an armed conflict with Russia, the Russians also don’t want an armed conflict with the US, right?
So if there were US troops and equipment there and a warning was put out to the Russians not to advance into Georgian territory and engage in armed conflict then the Russians wouldn’t have invaded.
How much aware was the Bush administration of Russia’s plans? Were they caught by suprise by this or something?
gumble on August 14, 2008 at 9:46 PM
There’re owners to this site. When they decide I don’t belong here, they have a switch to let me know. Your opinion on this as well as any other topic, really, is of no consequence.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:46 PM
Like, who else is going to do it?
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 9:45 PM
mercycorps.org
Been in Georgia since 2000, have the infrastructure already in place. Theyt are based out of Portland, Oregon.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:47 PM
Walk me through this logic.
freevillage on August 14, 2008 at 9:47 PM
coldwarrior is right. I can remember when the communists first fell and so many people seemed to think that Russia would become a capitalist country overnight. They did not even have the means to get to the people. Potatoes were rotting in the fields because their food distribution system was completely centralized and the government had ceased to function.
There was a vacuum and the oligarchs moved in and took over. And Russia’s inclination for autocracy won out.
Terrye on August 14, 2008 at 9:49 PM
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