Russians pulling out of Georgia; French cease-fire attacked
posted at 8:10 am on August 14, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
Share on Facebook | printer-friendly
The Russians are going, the Russians are going … back into South Ossetia. Georgian government sources confirm that Russian tanks have re-entered Gori today to facilitate the withdrawal of forces from Georgia, clearing unexploded ordnance and retreating in a disciplined manner. Meanwhile, a new report casts the French peace proposal as a clumsy failure that gave Russia a context to march on Tbilisi:
Russian tanks have returned to the Georgian city of Gori, but only to help facilitate the pullout of their forces, Georgia’s Interior Ministry says.
Explosions heard in Gori Thursday were the result of Russian troops clearing unexploded ordnance, the Interior Ministry said.
Earlier, it said Georgian police had begun returning to Gori as Russian forces moved out.
The police would establish positions and checkpoints and try to keep law and order, the Interior Ministry said. Their return to the city was negotiated with Russia Wednesday.
Why did the Russians keep pushing towards the Georgian capital after the signing of the cease-fire with Mikheil Saakashvili? The French cease-fire turned out to be a surrender of Georgian sovereignty, giving Russia the right to claim a peacekeeper role throughout the entire nation and not just in the two breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazai. Nicolas Sarkozy played the role of Neville Chamberlain, according to the New York Times:
It was nearly 2 a.m. on Wednesday when President Nicolas Sarkozy of France announced he had accomplished what seemed virtually impossible: Persuading the leaders of Georgia and Russia to agree to a set of principles that would stop the war.
Handshakes and congratulations were offered all around. But by the time the sun was up, Russian tanks were advancing again, this time taking positions around the strategically important city of Gori, in central Georgia.
It soon became clear that the six-point deal not only failed to slow the Russian advance, but it also allowed Russia to claim that it could push deeper into Georgia as part of so-called additional security measures it was granted in the agreement. Mr. Sarkozy, according to a senior Georgian official who witnessed the negotiations, also failed to persuade the Russians to agree to any time limit on their military action.
Why would Sarkozy agree to surrender Georgian sovereignty?
“I think it was presented as, ‘You need to sign on to this,’ ” the official said of Mr. Sarkozy’s appeal to the Georgians. “My guess is it was presented as, ‘This is the best I can get.’ ”
For anyone who studied the Munich summit of 1938, that sounds depressingly familiar. Rather than stand firm on behalf of an ally, France pushed them into a false peace agreement that essentially surrendered to an aggressor. At Munich, the tanks had not yet rolled across the frontier, allowing the fantasy of peace to give it a patina of victory for France and England for the six months before Germany rolled over the rest of Czechoslovakia.
Obviously, the cease-fire agreement did not chase the Russians back into South Ossetia. So what did? The unexpectedly strong American response is most likely responsible for the Russian reconsideration. George Bush went from oddly passive in the first hours of the crisis to angry within days. His order to start military airlifts to provide, ahem, “humanitarian” aid to Georgia probably took Russia by surprise. The EU move to kick Russia out of the G-8, where they don’t belong anyway, may also have gotten Putin’s attention.
It looks like the Caucasus will return to status quo ante, but only for a while. Like it or not, South Ossetia and Abkhazia have had de facto independence for at least a decade, and they have a strong military partner in Russia. Under similar circumstances, Kosovo got its independence recognized. Serbia wasn’t strong enough to hold Kosovo, and Georgia won’t be strong enough to hold these two provinces, either. I’d guess that an international negotiation will result in Tbilisi losing the two provinces within a year.
You must be logged in to post a comment.

















Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: 1 2 3 Next »
We need to immediately grant full NATO membership to Georgia, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, etc. Otherwise, Putin will pressure them into puppet governments.
fleiter on August 14, 2008 at 8:22 AM
It looks like both Georgian piplelines remain in Georgia proper, although Supsa (Black Sea Port) is only a few miles from Abkhazia.
I don’t believe either are operating at the moment. Apparently, BP closed the Supsa route due to the war, and a terrorist-set fire in Turkey closed the other one.
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 8:26 AM
I had hopes that M. Sarkozy was a different kind of Frenchman. We must stand against this Russian aggression. “Those who fail to remember their history….”
farleyman on August 14, 2008 at 8:27 AM
What accounts for France’s immediate presence on the scene?
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 8:27 AM
Memo to Sarkozy: appeasement doesn’t work. Never has, never will. When are you Frenchies going to figure this out?
AZCoyote on August 14, 2008 at 8:30 AM
Re: Munich, I’m not sure that a “paper” guarantee of Georgia’s sovreignty would be worth the paper it was written on. The only guarantee will come from strength and unity from the West.
NeighborhoodCatLady on August 14, 2008 at 8:30 AM
Pass the cheese, please.
argos on August 14, 2008 at 8:34 AM
I thought Sarko was different from the French tradition of “cheese-eating surrender monkeys”.
jgapinoy on August 14, 2008 at 8:34 AM
Sarkosy…oh the devil is in the details…may have gone for expediency over content, may have viewed a temporary arrangment as something that could be sorted out later, when cooler heads could prevail, may have quite possibly saved Georgia from a pretty certain annihilation, perhaps viewing a Vichy arrangement as being better for Georgia than a Lidice arrangement. Or he was made a witting or unwitting chess piece in a far larger game.
But I’ll hold off a bit until the details are made public.
As for the devil…
If we view this Georgian disaster as some sort of isolated event, a mere exercise in showing the West that the Russians brook no interventionism from the US, NATO, the EU, perhaps we should view this in a greater context.
This is all about Putin. It is all about Putin’s vision of Russia 100 years ago, 25 years ago, ten years ago, last Wednesday, and tomorrow and decades from now…and how Putin intends to get to his vision of Russia’s future.
He can afford, according to Putin, based on his actions, to sacrifice a quick and certain victory in order to achieve several less quick but nevertheless certain victories.
Putin’s game plan is not dependent on polling, or the four-year election cycle, public opinion, world opinion (so he thinks) or any other factor save for the might and majesty of Mother Russia united under Vladimir I, Tsar of all the Russia’s.
Once we understand that tiny little detail…the rest falls into place quite easily. Only then, can we start to deal with the beast with any hope of success.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 8:34 AM
Send all the captured bombs, etc. from Iraq & Afghanistan to Georgia.
And tell Russia that if it is in favor of separatist regions with different ethnic/religious/linguistic characteristics can secede from a former Soviet republic, then the same will work for Chechnya.
rbj on August 14, 2008 at 8:36 AM
Well, there went the potential of the “New French Leadership”, right out the damned window.
I am breathing a big sigh of relief that Russia is pulling out, though.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 8:37 AM
Does Kaine still want to give Obama credit for this mess? Just wondering.
and maybe the French should lighten up on the tough talk at swim meets and save it for situations like this.
forest on August 14, 2008 at 8:42 AM
But..but…..but I thought that it was the words of Obama that struck fear into the Russians and made them sign on to a cease fire,excuse me,Georgian surrender agreement.
It looks like Sarkozy has signed on to Obama’s “Winnie-the-Pooh and Tiger to” foreign policy Plan.
The strength and leadership that McCain showed in this situation compared to Obama’s bungling back and forth snipping is another reason why Obama is not ready for prime time.
Baxter Greene on August 14, 2008 at 8:43 AM
I heard a French diplomat on C-SPAN this morning. He indicted why they surrendered Georgian’s sovereignty. He said that the most important issue at the time of the peace proposal was to get the violence to stop.
Ronald Reagan was right when he said, “…there is only one guaranteed way you can have peace–and you can have it in the next second–surrender.”
coffee260 on August 14, 2008 at 8:44 AM
These tiny little states each wanting to be their own country is sort of silly. It would be like Rhode Island wanting to be their own country.
Each one has their own fanatic ethnicity and having a bunch of them jammed together and constantly at each other’s throat is a recipe for a boiling cauldren of problems for eternity.
Alden Pyle on August 14, 2008 at 8:44 AM
Anyone know anything about the situation in Ajaria, on Georgia’s SW coast near Turkey. Debka had been reporting (I know) that a Russian fleet was off the coast. Ajaria is a 3rd restless province in Georgia. But if you control Ajaria, you control Azeri oil. Isn’t this all about that?
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 8:45 AM
These Nations are already full members. In fact, Latvia was the host of the NATO conference last year.
Squid Shark on August 14, 2008 at 8:45 AM
A week into this and still more questions than answers.
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 8:50 AM
rbj on August 14, 2008 at 8:36 AM –
You hit on a point to often missed or ignored. If the Russians/Putin demand that Abhazia and South Ossetia be recognized as independent sovereign states…then let’s take a look all across not only the Near Abroad, but within Russia itself…should there be sovereignty for the Adyge, the Adzhars, Altaians, the Bashkirs, the Buryats, of course, the Chechens, the Cherkess, Chuckchi, Dagestanis, Evenki or all the rest of the over 150 recognized “nationalities” within Russia?
After all, in the view of a logical person, there is a relation, a relativism, a morality, that tells us that you cannot do one thing and then do the polar opposite…
Then again, Putin is not a moral relativist…something the West had better get used to, Putin is Morality under Putin’s New Russia.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 8:55 AM
The reason why Russia’s support for Iran will only go so far.
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 8:58 AM
Precisely my dear JiangxiDad, Just as surely; if you control Iraq you control Iraqi oil.
Russian fascists, American neocons; to peas in a pod!
J_Gocht on August 14, 2008 at 9:01 AM
Wow. Just Wow. That’s the creepiest thing I’ve ever heard. Somehow a country should only be a country if they reach a certain square mileage? Gotcha.
mjk on August 14, 2008 at 9:02 AM
The end sentence to every surrender monkey who’s walked this erf.
There is always better, but settling leads to complacency, war, domination, and loss of identity. Personally, I think the
RussiansSoviets are testing the waters, albeit clumsily, for a much grander military initiative.madmonkphotog on August 14, 2008 at 9:03 AM
Current violence levels in Iraq must be burning you like hell, eh?
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 9:05 AM
There was a surrendering to be done. Who better for the job than the French?
TheBigOldDog on August 14, 2008 at 9:08 AM
What accounts for France’s immediate presence on the scene?
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 8:27 AM
they hold the EU presidency right now.
elduende on August 14, 2008 at 9:10 AM
Sarko is now advising the Georgians on how to prevent further invasions: build a Maginot Line.
jgapinoy on August 14, 2008 at 9:10 AM
McCain has been saying recently that he wants to establish a new “league of democracies.”
Basically, it sounds like he wants to set up an international organization where dictators and terrorist states don’t get veto power.
I think this would resonate very well with Americans given the events of August. It’s about time we admit to ourselves that the idea of some United Brotherhood of nations is a foolish illusion because frankly, all nations are NOT equally good. The tide of history is toward democracy, and we ought to give this prevailing force the recognition it deserves by creating, if only informally, an academy or a league of true, democratic nations who will be consulted in times of crisis.
jeff_from_mpls on August 14, 2008 at 9:12 AM
elduende on August 14, 2008 at 9:10 AM –
Thank you for pointing that out. Sarkozy was speaking for the EU far more than he was speaking for France.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:13 AM
atleast we know McCain will carry on the Reagan tradition on Foreign Policy…he’s all we can hope for at this point, and the civilized world for that matter.
VDH has a depressing, but must read, column today.
jp on August 14, 2008 at 9:17 AM
Imagine Holbrook or John Kerry as Secretary of State at a time like this?
Pass the cheese pleese.
petefrt on August 14, 2008 at 9:17 AM
Has this invasion by Russia and possible other actions against countries like the Ukraine relegated Iran to a
rear view mirror status?
If ever we needed strength and leadership from the Europeans it is now,because we cannot afford to take off what little heat we have on the little nuclear psycho from Iran that is hell bent on the destruction of Israel.
It is time for the European countries that are always bragging about their moral superiority and intelligence over the “war mongering imperialistic America” to put up or shut up.
If they don’t want America to be the worlds policeman,then
get off their appeasing a@@’s and stand up to Russia because
we are a little busy carrying the load fighting the Jihad.
Appeasement is not the answer.
Baxter Greene on August 14, 2008 at 9:18 AM
.
Would that unexploded ordinance be on the ground, or in the chamber?
Think_b4_speaking on August 14, 2008 at 9:18 AM
Ed, this isn’t entirely analagous to Munich. The Brits/French had signed a pact with the Czechs to wage war against any nation that attacked. The Munich pact was a clear method by which the French and Brits abdicated themselves of that responsibility. No such pact exists between France and Georgia.
kkaneff79 on August 14, 2008 at 9:20 AM
jeff_from_mpls on August 14, 2008 at 9:12 AM –
We are going to need something in the post Cold War world other than the UN. UN is fine for short term point humanitarian projects. Pretty worthless for peacekeeping, and near nil for major problem solving. And costing us billions in dues to pay for other countries kicking us in the jewels.
I would hope that any alternative of responsible democracies would avoid using the word “League.” Been used before, with terrible results. Besides, “League of Democracies” sounds so Marvel comics.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:21 AM
To be a bit fair to Sarkozy, I don’t think there’s much that can be done. Should Europe (and then the US) get into a shooting war with Russia over Georgia? Even just giving war materials might cause Putin to cut off gas supplies for a while.
What Europe needs to do is to stop buying Russian oil and gas, why just think of how much they could reduce their carbon footprint, plus they wouldn’t be doing business with a brutal dicatorship. The Euroleft has gotta love that, right? Or would it be too much of an inconvenience for them?
And, as has been said already, get Ukraine into NATO. Georgia might be lost, but Putin should realize that gaining Georgia loses him Ukraine. That’s the only kind of diplomacy he understands.
rbj on August 14, 2008 at 9:21 AM
Yes, our prime motive. Also why we’ve taken Azeri, Venezuelan, Canadian, Mexican, Brazilian, Norwegian and Saudi oil. It will cost me $900/month this winter to fill my oil tank. I use 5 tankfulls/year. You do the math. It’s a good thing we wage wars to steal the world’s oil. That’s why it’s so cheap for me. You’re a putz, my dear Gocht.
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 9:22 AM
Really? I’m all for clipping Ivan’s wings, but you’ve got to be pragmatic. The dollar is tanking, oil prices are through the roof, and the defecit is at record levels. You really want to commit the United States of America to protect every last nook and cranny in the world? At what cost? Will the United States really engage in nuclear war in order to protect the Ukraine? That’s what war with Russia amounts to. Let the euros deal with their own problems for once. What has 60 years of American policing brought other than a continent of ungrateful europeans who loathe America? America cannot be everything to everyone. Sabre rattling is a lot more effective when you’e not constantly rattling.
kkaneff79 on August 14, 2008 at 9:27 AM
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 9:22 AM
I agree. We aren’t looting Iraq of its oil. That old “war for oil” thing doesn’t hold water when applied to the US.
The Russians could be a different story though. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to see them seizing a gangster’s cut of any resource or business conducted in occupied areas.
forest on August 14, 2008 at 9:31 AM
As a Nepali Ghurkha said to me years and years ago…one does not take out his kukri to frighten an enemy, one takes out the kukri to slaughter the enemy.
Saber rattling does little good in the present context.
There are many many ways to bring down the Tsar.
And most do not require us to fight for every nook and cranny, or use nukes…or engage in saber rattling at all.
Identify his weaknesses, and pursue those weaknesses.
The Tsar falls.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:34 AM
especially since Iraqi oil is controlled by the Iraqi’s.
where as Putin is trying to annex Georgia into Russia for its oil pipeline, strategic location and other resources.
jp on August 14, 2008 at 9:37 AM
And that’s the oddest thing. As far as I know, S. Ossetia and Abkhazia have no resources.
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 9:37 AM
Allowing Russia to monopolize energy distribution through territorial acquisition won’t make those oil prices go down. Like it or not, this isn’t just an European problem.
a capella on August 14, 2008 at 9:38 AM
Precisely. Ivan has done an excellent job of getting everyone’s attention. That isn’t always a good thing. Iran is probably sweating bullets about now.
a capella on August 14, 2008 at 9:43 AM
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 9:37 AM –
Abkhazi and both Ossetias are deeply involved in the drug trade, going back to pre-Soviet times, and are good mercenaries to have, thugs on call, if you need them.
There are other “importances” for both the Abkhaz and Ossets, but I’ve been called for getting too long winded in my posts of late. Let’s just say that both have their usefulness under Putin.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:44 AM
Okay…so the Russians are pulling out?
Really?
Really?
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 9:47 AM
You see, The Great One did intervene. It’s outlined in the book of Obama, Chapter 2, verses 5-8.
5 The Mighty Obama formed his hands into a divine “O” symbol and spoke through it, and spake unto the Bear “Yea, though thou dost walk unchecked through Georgia, I command thee to cease, lest I be forced to roll mine eyes at thee.”
6 And the Bear spake unto The One, “Fogive us, Most Holy of Holies! We shall fall back! Please do not roll thine eyes at me!”
7 And the Bear did retreat.
8 Whilst the Almighty conversed with the Bear, the Great Satan George Bush and his unholy messenger Condi Rice rattled the Saber of War, and thus did try to steal credit for that which the Almighty Obama hath wrought.
Vic on August 14, 2008 at 9:48 AM
Yea..I don’t think they are. Plus, I saw video of Georgian forces firing on journalists.
This isn’t over by a long shot.
becki51758 on August 14, 2008 at 9:48 AM
.
You make some good points, especially on the ungrateful nature of Europe, but for recently-won territory, like Georgia and Ukraine, yes, I think we need to make the investment. Not only are they recent converts, but they are in strategic locations.
Think_b4_speaking on August 14, 2008 at 9:49 AM
Russia isn’t going to let South Ossetia and Abkhazai become independent nations. They will just be quasi-autonomous Russian provinces, instead of quasi-autonomous Georgian provinces. Saakashvili made a serious mistake by sending troops into South Ossetia and giving Putin the excuse to grab the the two, and also to beat up on the tiny Georgian army, reminding Saakashvili who’s the boss in this part of the world.
Putin has enough for a while. The point has been made: hobnob too closely with the Americans, and you’ll get your face slapped. As Russia grows richer with oil and gas revenues from Europe, expect more pressure on the former Soviet Republics.
Could we have taken over Russia’s nuclear weapons in the 1990s, and permanently de-clawed the bear? A resurgent Russia leads one to wonder.
MrLynn on August 14, 2008 at 9:51 AM
.
Don’t forget, they are currently the world leader in counterfeiting.
Think_b4_speaking on August 14, 2008 at 9:51 AM
Ergo, the correct course of action is to engage in military conflict? Worked out pretty well with Iraq (and now Iran) vis-a-vis Oil prices. How much money has literally been handed Putin, Saudi, and Chavez’s hands as a consequence of those increased prices. Putin is emboldended because more than ever before, he’s flush with cash, and controls a commodity which has seen a 6X price increase since the little jaunt into Iraq.
I understand that there’s a certain romance to the benevolence of America. Everybody wants to avoid the next holocaust. But that sentiment can’t be allowed to thrust America into every little squabble. This kind of nonsensical interventionism is the mantra of the Democracts, not conservatives. For the life of me I don’t understand the lack of clarity in some conservative thinking when I hear arguments akin to “we should be here protecting X, or over there, protecting Y”.
kkaneff79 on August 14, 2008 at 9:52 AM
a capella on August 14, 2008 at 9:38 AM –
The three oil lines that cross Georgia presently carry about 1% of the world’s oil and gas. Not a heck of a lot in the larger picture.
But look at the geography. Central Asia is dependent on the Moscow Route for just about everything. This pipeline affords Azerbaijan, Turkmenia, Kazakhstan, an alternative route to Western markets [and hard currencies] something Putin would like to shut down.
The “real fun” may begin if/when the Chinese finish their infrastructure out to the Dzungarian Gate and are able to tap into Khazakh oil and gas from the East (and afford an alternative to Azerbaijan and Turkmenia as well.)
Then there is Afghanistan…the only low altitude pass from Central Asia to the Indian Ocean runs right through Afghanistan.
If you were Tsar, what would you do?
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:52 AM
If this is true, which is unlikely, I can’t wait to hear how Lord BO brought peace to Georgia even while on vacation.
ronsfi on August 14, 2008 at 9:53 AM
Think_b4_speaking on August 14, 2008 at 9:51 AM –
Thought the North Koreans held that distinction? Maybe it is just for the C-note.
In any case, yes they have been at it (”counterfeiting in the Kavkas”) for quite a while.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 9:55 AM
I’m sure you are (or at least I assume you are) far better informed than I am, Ed, but every bit of news I’ve seen and heard this morning states that Russia is not pulling out.
In fact, the Russian pull-out seems even more questionable since the fragile cease-fire appeared even more shaky after Russia’s foreign minister declared today that THE WORLD “can forget about any talk about Georgia’s territorial integrity.”
SilverStar830 on August 14, 2008 at 9:56 AM
.
That brings up a whole other problem. Kazakhstan moved its capital hundreds of miles to the west, from the Chinese borderland into the desert. they didn’t do it for the scenery…..
Think_b4_speaking on August 14, 2008 at 9:57 AM
One line of thought suggests that Russia’s military assistance to Iran and Syria prompted Israel’s military assistance to Georgia.
Whatever else this whole affair may turn out to be about (oil, drugs, mafia, empire building etc.) there seems to also be an Israel-Iran undercurrent to the whole thing.
Weren’t these types of Caucasion and C. Asian manoeuvres once referred to as the Great Game?
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 9:57 AM
Russia: “Forget about” Georgian territorial integrity
These swine are really pushing it.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 9:58 AM
.
Definitely – there are some great books out there detailing the game from the late 1800s onwards.
Think_b4_speaking on August 14, 2008 at 9:59 AM
Gee…maybe that was because, I dunno, it wasn’t an oil war?
I don’t care how many times pot-smoking aging hippies chant it, it doesn’t make it true.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 10:01 AM
.
Jingxi, check out author Peter Hopkirk for a couple of good ones, Setting the East Ablaze, and The Great Game
Think_b4_speaking on August 14, 2008 at 10:03 AM
The plot thickens.
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 10:04 AM
Think_b4_speaking on August 14, 2008 at 9:57 AM –
Almaty had a bad habit of being an earthquake magnet. Almaty was also at the extreme eastern side of the nation,isolated from most of its own territory. Would be like having the US capital located in northern Idaho.
A more centralized capital made sense, along with ready access to a couple rail lines. Don’t think there was anything sinister about the relocation.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 10:04 AM
Tks.
JiangxiDad on August 14, 2008 at 10:05 AM
Thank you for proving my point. Engaging in war, in a region that controls oil, regardless of motivation, is likely to cause an increase in oil prices. So, you think the American public has stomach for $6.50 a gallon in order to protect Georgia?
I don’t think so. When you’re done with your pot, feel free to weigh in on that one.
kkaneff79 on August 14, 2008 at 10:06 AM
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 10:10 AM
Shall I connect the dots?
kkaneff79 on August 14, 2008 at 10:12 AM
That’s fabulous news MC!
The fact that violence levels are down in whole or in part may be due to the tactical decisions made on the part of the warring Iraqi’s parties or on our military decision to let the Iraqi’s carry more of the load they should be bearing.
My point has been, is and continues to be; you don’t go into a country with your guns blazing for whatever reason and expect the populous to greet you with open arms and flower petals.
The minute we aren’t looking the Shiite, Sunni and Kurds will be at each other hammer and tong! Fifteen hundred years of religious and ethnic violence doesn’t go away just because we’ve killed a few hundreds of thousands of the warring parties.
Any wise guerilla never confronts his more powerful conventional adversary on the battle ground of the adversary’s choosing.
Successful unconventional warfare is waged on the guerilla’s terms. He melts into the darkness of night when prudent and reemerges to fight again on his terms at another time and place when the odds are favorable to his purpose.
J_Gocht on August 14, 2008 at 10:13 AM
One of the earmarks (other than Congressional) of the American public at large is the knack for playing gotcha and the blame game. It has crippled our political processes for the past four or five election cycles.
This “Russia thingie” the Putin problem isn’t going to be dealt with nor solved in any way if we, the US, we, the West, get all wrapped around the axle about is it Bush’s fault, is it Obama’s fault, Sarkozy’s fault, Saakashvili’s fault, or did Karl Rove plan it all from the beginning.
Problem: A revanchist imperial Russia under a total autocrat/Tsar Putin.
Possible Solutions:
Considerations:
Recommendations:
Action Plan:
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 10:18 AM
Go right ahead. Your paper appears to be blank.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 10:23 AM
…think you left something out there. Hint: rhymes with “merge”.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 10:25 AM
cw, you should be someone’s SecDef.
The same goes for Iran. Finesse however; requires well trained assets, patience and cunning. All these elements are lacking in the current administration.
J_Gocht on August 14, 2008 at 10:33 AM
We should not forget the stylishly cool response of HopieChangie. That contributed much to the retreat of the Russians.
silverfox on August 14, 2008 at 10:38 AM
This administration just showed the French how it’s done.
Like Col. Renault said in Casablanca:
I wouldn’t underestimate American blundering. I was there when they blundered into Berlin.
silverfox on August 14, 2008 at 10:43 AM
Yeah, it was either that or lose their breakfast. :)
OldEnglish on August 14, 2008 at 10:45 AM
Patience…like not immediately deploying military resources to Tbilisi? Like waiting before basically telling USSR Part Deux that if they try to take over Georgia, they’re going to have to deal with us?
Because the current administration did both. They didn’t do what a lot of people hoped, but Saakashvili isn’t dead yet. If not for the possibility of American intervention, he would have been dead Sunday morning.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 10:46 AM
Yogi once said…”It ain’t over till it’s over!”
There is much Russian footwear left to fall, in this revoltin’ situation!
J_Gocht on August 14, 2008 at 11:08 AM
Hell, Putin blinked. He knew that P. Bush does not bluff. He saw what happened when sadam called his bluff. Go ahead, under-estimate P. Bush.
Johan Klaus on August 14, 2008 at 11:28 AM
If it came to a confrontation with the U.S. military, Putin was holding aces and eights and he knew it.
Johan Klaus on August 14, 2008 at 11:33 AM
I was under the impression that the breakaway regions of Georgia were not recognized as independent states by the international community prior to the Russian aggression. Has this brokered arrangement changed that dynamic? Are they “independent states” or are they newly annexed satellites of Russia?
onlineanalyst on August 14, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Also, can someone explain Russia’s supposed alliance with the US vis a vis Iran? I fail to see how Russia’s refusal to isolate Iran through economic sanctions and Russia’s sending arms and nuclear assistance to Iran supports this conclusion. Am I missing something here?
onlineanalyst on August 14, 2008 at 11:38 AM
There’s a riddle inside an enigma here.
Why and or who, may have encouraged Saakashvili to advance on the provinces, in the first place?
This is especially curious; when you consider Georgia had a large contingent of their battle hardened troops in Iraq?
Is this just another classic case of misunderestimating the unintentional consequences of one’s imprudent military action?
Scratchs’ bald pate…?
J_Gocht on August 14, 2008 at 11:45 AM
I dunno. Maybe South Ossetia? Attacking Georgian police kinda seems like it might be a bit attention-getting.
MadisonConservative on August 14, 2008 at 11:51 AM
onlineanalyst on August 14, 2008 at 11:34 AM –
Only Russia recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia as “independent.” At the same time, they provided as many as they could with Russian passports.
Inconsistent? On the surface. But look at the changes in Russian jurisprudence and at their recent declarations regarding their full desire to use Russian military forces to protect “Russian citizens” anywhere around the world, and to militarily oppose any nation which insults the person and the dignity of the Russian people abroad. They have also declared the Right to arrest, detain, convict and sentence, under Russian Law, any persons who engage in slights to Russian dignity or to the persons of Russian citizens abroad.
This is the Tsar’s Law. In 2008.
In the middle of all the Georgia did this and Georgia did that prattle, we are missing the larger picture.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 11:58 AM
onlineanalyst on August 14, 2008 at 11:38 AM –
There is NO alliance vis-a-vis the US and Russia as regards iran. Never was. Never will be.
This “alliance” chimera is of total Western making.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 12:00 PM
I’ll just betcha the attackers looked like common citizens? Torn jackets, scruffy shoes and dirty shirts, maybe?
There must be a thousand ways an unrelenting bully can start fight for his own purposes and at his own convenience.
J_Gocht on August 14, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Thanks, CW. Your expertise and clear-thinking provides a context.
onlineanalyst on August 14, 2008 at 12:05 PM
+1
OldEnglish on August 14, 2008 at 12:15 PM
Yeah, they got sucker punched into a fight they couldn’t possibably win and all their olde western buds had other fish to fry.
J_Gocht on August 14, 2008 at 12:25 PM
You can now look back at the comments Bush, Rice and Gates have made to see that there was an agreement to cease the hostility by Putin while he was in China. Then there was a guarantee that the Russian objective was only to secure SO. In that light, I can understand what you describe as passive was actually an understanding that the situation was on its path to resolution. The move towards angry is because of the deceit of the Russian government including everyone who was involved in the discussions, including not just Putin to Bush, but also Rice and Gates counterparts.
I think that Sarkozy’s mission was to save the capital and slow the advance of Russian troops. I find it interesting that in that cease-fire agreement, it wasn’t a peace deal, Russia was evidently focused on including the term of Russian peacekeepers and evidently assumed the humanitarian aid would be in the form of the usual UN stuff, while Bush apparently understood that the countermeasure to the Russians staying in Georgia was going to require a bold step of placing that aid in the hands of the US military. In that decision, Bush has pretty much made Russia’s desire for inserting peacekeepers moot. Also, now as we see, Russia is bound by that agreement to return to their Aug 6th positions. So yes, I’d agree that Putin was surprised by his misunderestimation of Bush.
Texas Gal on August 14, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Yeah, they got sucker punched into a fight they couldn’t possibably win and all their olde western buds had other fish to fry.
J_Gocht on August 14, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Don’t know if “they” got sucker punched, but they did, and we, too, as did most of the West, get caught using an old rubric to try to solve an entirely new enigma.
Been trying to follow this for the past several years, been doing a lot of reading and examining what is happening inside Russia, as well as what Russia has been doing abroad. Over the past year or so I have been trying to put together some rather odd pieces into a larger puzzle, and this Russo-Georgian War has filled in a lot of blanks in a very short period of time.
Putin has weaknesses, abroad, but more importantly, at home. It is in our best interests to quickly identifiy those weaknesses, and to devlop the means and the will to capitalize (no pun intended) on those weaknesses. If we wade around the mud pool trying to grasp unknown objects with our toes, we will get nowhere near a solution. Unfortunately, from what I have seen in the bulk of the media, and in too many “expert” editorials, we are already losing sight of the larger picture.
This is chess. Not checkers. Chess is a game. I’ve seen a few references to “the Game” in some of the posts. Appropriate. The current word, chess, is derived from an old Persian, and later Russian, word, “Shah’mat!” Which translated, means “Kill the King.”
Therein, though not necessarily literally, lies the answer.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 12:36 PM
We don’t “control” Iraq, idiot. And we don’t control its oil, either, unfortunately. I sure wish we did. Do you think oil prices would be spiking if we had control of Iraq’s massive oil supply? Do you think the eeeeeevil neocons would be begging Dems to let us drill our own oil if we had control of Iraq’s? Plus, Maliki is clearly not a neocon puppet, or there’s no way the eeeeevil neocons would have allowed him to endorse Obama.
You libs love to compare conservatives to fascists. If you lived under actual fascist rule, you’d probably curl up in the fetal position in a corner and sob like a little baby. You certainly wouldn’t be exercising your free speech on the internet without fear. Did Bush’s thugs just break down your door and arrest you for typing dissenting commentary on the internet? No? Then he’s not a fascist dictator, dummie!
aero on August 14, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Finally! In the public press, something that should be required reading by anyone who wishes to better understand the “why?” behind the present situation.
Ralph Peters is 100% on target.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 12:45 PM
I thought Condi Rice was a Russian expert. Why didn’t Bush handle this more aggressively from the start? Hopefully The Stache will way in on this.
Outlander on August 14, 2008 at 12:45 PM
Why didn’t Bush handle this more aggressively from the start?
Because if he had, we’d be in an entirely different realm, and badly.
coldwarrior on August 14, 2008 at 12:46 PM
aero on August 14, 2008 at 12:39 PM
+1
somebody has to take out the trash…
silverfox on August 14, 2008 at 12:48 PM
They are withdrawing, apparently anyway, NOT retreating.
MB4 on August 14, 2008 at 12:53 PM
The commie fanboys are out in force all over the internet these days.
Are they emboldened now by Russia’s actions?
Are they just ordinary trolls craving attention again?
One thing is certain now, if you have oil you can get away with almost anything. If you have oil and nukes, watch out!
I find it highly suspicious that the same crowd (this includes our duly elected officials) that oppose drilling also oppose the missile shield.
reaganaut on August 14, 2008 at 1:00 PM
Comment pages: 1 2 3 Next »