Showdown: Bush sends “humanitarian” aid to Georgia as Russians advance; Update: “This is not 1968,” says Condi; Update: Russians camp along the road to Tbilisi
posted at 3:51 pm on August 13, 2008 by Allahpundit
President Bush said Wednesday that the Pentagon had begun a “vigorous and ongoing” humanitarian mission to ease the suffering in Georgia, and that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would travel to France and then to Georgia to work for a settlement of the crisis…
Mr. Bush said that a transport plane with medical supplies was already on its way to Georgia, and that American air and naval forces would carry out the aid mission. And he said pointedly that Russia must not interfere with aid arriving in Georgia by air, land or water…
However, minutes after Mr. Bush’s comments, President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia characterized the import of the American aid as “definitely an American military presence” and called it a “turning point.”…
“What I expected specifically from America was to secure our airport and to secure our seaports,” he went on, concluding that the American presence would do so. “The main thing now is that the Georgian Tbilisi airport will be permanently under control.”
Saakashvili is spinning hard to make this look like a U.S. cavalry charge, going so far as to call it a “military-humanitarian operation” and claiming that Georgian ports will now be under U.S. “control.” The Pentagon quickly denied it, although given Bush’s warning to Russia not to interfere with aid, things are going to get mighty dicey if they move on Tbilisi and take the airport. Charles Johnson says he’s hearing news reports that the Russian army’s within 15 miles of the city; I haven’t seen anything like that, although I did see earlier that Russia started moving towards the city before veering off in another direction. As of this morning, Russian troops occupied Gori and others were crossing into South Ossetia; Human Rights Watch claims they’re burning villages in the territory populated by ethnic Georgians.
My reaction to Bush’s announcement was the same as Ace’s, and doubtless what Saakashvili has in mind: They’re going to insert a token American force, a la South Korea, as a “tripwire” that the Russians dare not cross lest it provoke a wider war. Per the emphasis on the mission being purely humanitarian, it sounds like Bush is eager to douse that speculation — but needless to say, if U.S. troops do get caught in the crossfire, it’s anyone’s guess what happens. If you believe the Times, the U.S. brought this all on itself by sending “mixed messages” to Saakashvili that don’t really sound all that mixed. Publicly the administration’s shown consistent solidarity, and privately they’ve made it abundantly clear that he shouldn’t do anything nutty like, er, invade South Ossetia. Assuming that’s true, he’s playing dumb, going on CNN this morning to say he appreciated McCain’s encouraging words yesterday but that words don’t mean much vis-a-vis those all-important deeds they’re counting on.
Well, he’s got some deeds now. Stand by for updates as the Cold War II brinksmanship escalates. Exit quotation: “We understand that this current Georgian leadership is a special project of the United States, but one day the United States will have to choose between defending its prestige over a virtual project or real partnership which requires joint action.”
Update: This warrants the always rare double exit quotation. Sit back, close your eyes, and meditate on this while you run through your mental list of despots, terrorists, and assorted other cretins that Russia’s been selling weapons to for decades:
“Bush’s speech said nothing of how Georgia was armed all these years, including by the United States,” [Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov] said, adding, “We have more than once warned our partners that this is a dangerous game.”
Update: Well, we’re now in a position where one or the other side is going to have to call the other’s bluff or lose face.
Just the position you want to be in with two superpowers armed to the teeth with nukes.
“This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia where Russia can threaten a neighbor, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it,” Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said. “Things have changed.”
Update: Putin’s just taunting them now.
“Come with us, beauty, we’re going to Tbilisi!” one of the soldiers bellowed at a photographer in a sleeveless shirt along the road. Other troops grinned and brandished their weapons, and one hung his bare feet out the back of a truck. Another, a machine gunner riding atop an armored vehicle, wore a bandanna and a black T-shirt with the word “Russia” emblazoned in the red, blue and white colors of the national flag.
Asked from the side of the road, the soldiers shouted that their destination was Tbilisi — “With no detours,” one said. But then they veered abruptly into a field about an hour’s drive from the capital and camped conspicuously within sight of the road before the sun went down.
The message was hard to miss: The Russian military is still the landlord in swaths of Georgia, and its forces remain in easy striking distance of the country’s capital.










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What’s it all about, Alfie (Alphie)?
Is it just for the moment we live?
What’s it all about
Alpie, you need to chill…..
When you sort it out, Alfie (Alphie)?
Are we meant to take more
Than we give
Or are we meant to be kind?
And if only fools are kind, Alfie (Alphie),
Then I guess it’s wise to be cruel.
And if life belongs
Only to the strong, Alfie,
What will you lend
On an old golden rule?
Hening on August 13, 2008 at 7:22 PM
Hening on August 13, 2008 at 7:15 PM –
Best one I ever witnessed, guess its been 30+ years ago, probably been told in pubs all around Cheltenham by now, was a Brit “ferret” mission into the DDR using helicopters at low level. They’d fly in undetected, then go to altitude and every radar emitter and every chain of command link of the East Germans and Sov’s would light up. We’d get location, call signs, and a lot of good chatter in the process. As this pair hustled back home, one of them had a bit of an engine problem and was slower than the other, giving the Sov’s time to put a couple interceptors in the air. Was standing well within the one-K zone when this Westland Lynx (if I recall) sputtered into West Germany and a MiG-21 came shooting past us into West Germany…great big red star on that puppy…if I recall the Sov pilot had blue eyes…it was that close…
He pulled a high G upward turn and scooted back to his side.
Ya know…I do miss the Cold War.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 7:22 PM
The thing alphie forgets is that he’s no safer than the rest of us if the Russkies show up on his doorstep.
My kitty says:
Et tu Brute on August 13, 2008 at 7:27 PM
You could use a little tact at a time like this. And then there is the “small” matter of some other things that you have said.
MB4 on August 13, 2008 at 7:27 PM
Rumor has it our alphie is a she.
carbon_footprint on August 13, 2008 at 7:30 PM
MadisonConservative on August 13, 2008 at 7:31 PM
carbon_footprint on August 13, 2008 at 7:30 PM –
And “she” has no clue about those she is calling Chickenhawks. A huge bunch of HA posters are former and current military. We served. Honorably. Lil’ alphie apparently did not. Probably not old enough, yet.
I know…don’t feed the troll. But I had to get that in there.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 7:33 PM
alphie,
“For the most part…Russia has better planes than the USAF and Navy, MB4.”
LOL! You really don’t know much about anything, do you?
exhelodrvr on August 13, 2008 at 7:34 PM
I will be sure to pass this along to himself. What a great story…
You have the same glee in your tales as my uncle. Hopefully a new generation will have the same opportunity for yankin’ Reds in Georgia, and beyond.
All the best….
Hening on August 13, 2008 at 7:34 PM
Tut, tut alphie. Such ingratitude after all the times I didn’t order the McChicken sandwich at McDonald’s and probably saved your life.
Tuco on August 13, 2008 at 7:35 PM
I could tell you lot of “cold” war tales that were really “hot”
bill30097 on August 13, 2008 at 7:37 PM
I know what you mean. Have you read Blind Man’s Bluff?
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 7:37 PM
I don’t mock you for that observation. Just the other night, the same thought struck me. In fact I used the ask search engine to locate further thoughts on this biblical reference.
onlineanalyst on August 13, 2008 at 7:37 PM
Not all the troop airlifted from Iraq to Georgia were Georgians. Those Sovs better watch it at night camped by the side of the road better be careful.
bill30097 on August 13, 2008 at 7:38 PM
True, and thank all our HA folks who have served.
carbon_footprint on August 13, 2008 at 7:38 PM
Free advice to Soviet soldiers in Georgia. If you hear 3 or 4 shots and your top 3 or 4 officers are suddenly dead, lay down your rifle and put your hands in the air and get on your knees with your ankles crossed behind you. Do everyhing the nice men with the green caps tell you to.
bill30097 on August 13, 2008 at 7:41 PM
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 7:37 PM –
No, I haven’t, yet. But the things you guys in the subs/boats did…the whole story won’t ever get out, but absolutely incredible stuff. Worked with a former sub officer for a while. The few things he passed along, all validated/documented, we had access, would make the hair on your neck stand up…
Guess I’ll be hitting Amazon for my next book…thanks for the tip.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 7:42 PM
I know alphie is a kgb agent, but really? Russia’s military only offers one element of resistance to the US military – a target rich environment. It just gets hard to keep up the supply of so many missiles and bombs.
The USAF is widely accepted as having thrown an exercise against the Indian AF to hep its acquisition requests. Outside of this, old US equipment is the best there is, while the new stuff like the F22 is just ridiculous. In an internal competition the F22 went 144-0 in the first week of Northern Edge 2006 http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/07/airforce_raptor_070730/
Hopefully US planes are dumping thousands of Javelins and Stingers in Georgia. Along with some observers and the interesting assemblage of CVN assets…
libertarianuberalles on August 13, 2008 at 7:43 PM
It only takes one missile to take out a carrier,liber.
Remember: The Russians can shoot back.
They can even hit your kid’s school if they want.
How much is Georgia worth to you?(Question doesn’t apply to McCain’s staff).
alphie on August 13, 2008 at 7:46 PM
libertarianuberalles on August 13, 2008 at 7:43 PM –
Have been poaying attention to the video coming out of Georgia, and cruising the net to find more. Looking at Russian army movements and such. No road march discipline, no tactical discipline. Squads of troops carried on top of armor. No fire discipline. No effective on the ground coordination of fires. Pretty much like South Central LA on Saturday night…a bunch of armed thugs wearing uniforms, some not wearing uniforms…all pretty much fodder for coordinated counter fires or small unit engagement.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 7:46 PM
Oh, come now. Russian planes three decades old can OWN those.
I mean, MiGs were owned by F-15s twenty years ago, because US radar has consistently spanked Russian radar systems, but…ummm…AAAAA MOTHERLAND!
MadisonConservative on August 13, 2008 at 7:50 PM
KGB agents are indignant.
Hide alphie, because the “Russians can shoot back”.
Entelechy on August 13, 2008 at 7:50 PM
Pretty much like South Central LA on Saturday night…a bunch of armed thugs wearing uniforms, some not wearing uniforms…all pretty much fodder for coordinated counter fires or small unit engagement.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 7:46 PM
Light armor with a bunch of yahoos riding top-side. There is no way this is the regular Soviet army? This seems to be a game of numbers, with the Soviets sending in riff-raff rather than the real deal.
Hening on August 13, 2008 at 7:51 PM
Only takes one missile to take out a carrier?
Must not be at all familiar with how a US carrier group is deployed, nor have any idea at all about outer ring defense and close-in defense systems on US carriers and within a US carrier group. [We've been gaming this scenario for over 50 years, with more than annual updates in tactics, defense systems and training.] If it happens, heaven forbid, it’ll take a bit more than one missile…and the political hand ties come off totally if that happens.
“Only takes one missile…”in essence, the alphie-mumblings of a putz.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 7:52 PM
The “Close in” defense on carriers shoot down our own planes, cold…so they are turned off.
A couple of goatherders in a dingy took out one of our ships, remember?
Navy BS is the thickest.
alphie on August 13, 2008 at 7:54 PM
Don’t confuse me with a bubblehead! There was always something very wrong with a ship designed to sink. Seriously though all my work associates went through the same training. about half and half sub and surface, mixed officer and enlisted too. We had one ex-CO of a fast attack and an ex-CO of one of the nuclear cruisers. Blind Man’s Bluff is a good read.
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 7:55 PM
Hening on August 13, 2008 at 7:51 PM –
The uniform and vehicle markings generally indicate Russian Army regulars. The Ossetians have their flag on the turrets or flanks, and most are not in uniform.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 7:55 PM
Nothing’s thicker than you, chump.
MadisonConservative on August 13, 2008 at 7:56 PM
alphie appears rattled…
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 7:56 PM
alphie on August 13, 2008 at 7:46 PM
There’s a family without their father in my small town because of an enemy that shoots back. Young guy that excelled in school, went to NROTC, became a captain in the USMC and left his infant son and pregnant wife to help the folks in Iraq. I was there when his mom collapsed putting a wreath on a highway sign for a bridge named for him where he used to fish as a young boy.
You’re a little over the line with that one, Alphie.
Hening on August 13, 2008 at 7:57 PM
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 7:55 PM –
A sincere mea culpa is offered. [Note to self...Oldnuke is NOT a bubblehead.] ;-)
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 7:57 PM
This is one big joke to you, but if it comes to this, you will no doubt be one of the first to cry woe is me and wring your limp wrists helplessly.
Not hardly. The highest alphie would ever rise in the hierarchy would be informer, and then not a trusted one.
hillbillyjim on August 13, 2008 at 8:01 PM
The folks who said the Iraq “war” was over back in 2003 are still in power, hillbilly.
Let’s all just be aware of what’s at stake here (far beyond bribes to McCain’s top advisor).
alphie on August 13, 2008 at 8:03 PM
The highest alphie would ever rise in the hierarchy would be informer, and then not a trusted one.
hillbillyjim on August 13, 2008 at 8:01 PM
I think “stukatch” [Russian...perjorative, prison slang, sneak, weasel] would be a better descriptor.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 8:04 PM
It is over. It’s been an occupation for most of the last 5 years.
By the way, tell me about how our fleet of F22s is going to be killed by 8 SU34s and 5 SU35s. I ask because that is what Russia has in service.
MadisonConservative on August 13, 2008 at 8:06 PM
I left the debate and alphie was raving. I come back and alphie is raving. Nothing changes.
BTW, the idea that the Russians have better planes than the USA is just funny. Really it is.
I honestly do not think that Putin is going to come after American {yet} but he definitely has designs on the old Soviet bloc. One more reason to get the price of oil down. We need to make those people too poor to cause trouble.
Terrye on August 13, 2008 at 8:07 PM
I knew you or entelechy would help me out with the proper descriptive language. Thanks.
It takes a “special” kind of mind to spew the kind of poison that alpo is leaking today.
hillbillyjim on August 13, 2008 at 8:08 PM
So can we.
My kitty says:
Et tu Brute on August 13, 2008 at 8:09 PM
Our “fleet” of F-22s is rather small too, Madison.
alphie on August 13, 2008 at 8:09 PM
We need to make those people too poor to cause trouble.
Terrye on August 13, 2008 at 8:07 PM
Or so poor that they finally see the kleptocrats in the Kremlin as their real enemies. Give Putin a personal taste of democracy in action. The Ceaucescu solution seems indicated in Putin’s future.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 8:09 PM
4.0, Sailor!
MT = Missile Tech (Trident 1). One of those Big Bullets.
BobMbx on August 13, 2008 at 8:10 PM
Alfie tried to join up with our Islamic Holy Warriors to be a bomb maker but when we told him the only thing he qualified for was to be a suicide bomber he got away so fast we could never catch up with him.
Aleph on August 13, 2008 at 8:10 PM
I’m not the one spouting hogwash designed to insult and inflame.
Physician, heal thyself.
hillbillyjim on August 13, 2008 at 8:11 PM
Ya, the son is force recon.
Johan Klaus on August 13, 2008 at 8:12 PM
Strawman.
hillbillyjim on August 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM
Really. 15 SU35s built. Total.
122 F22s built as of July 2008. Another 60 planned by 2010.
You lose. Good day, sir.
MadisonConservative on August 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM
You know nothing.
Johan Klaus on August 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM
Watch it now…Skimmer.
Blind Mans Bluff by Sherry Sontag. She is not very well liked in the submarine community. The reasons become obvious after you read her book. We’re called the Silent Service for a reason. She overlooked that. Tsk Tsk.
BobMbx on August 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM
I remember when the USAF had thousands of fighters, Madison.
We all lose.
alphie on August 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM
My kid will school them.
Johan Klaus on August 13, 2008 at 8:17 PM
Proof that alphie is a liberal.
carbon_footprint on August 13, 2008 at 8:18 PM
Oh, by the way…of aircraft built for Russia in the past 25 years…about 40 are in service. 4-0.
We have three times that many, and they’re all fifth generation strike fighters.
alphie, do you want to keep going? I’m enjoying the fact that you never actually address the facts I list or countered with your own. It’s entertaining.
MadisonConservative on August 13, 2008 at 8:18 PM
I remember when the Soviets/Russians had over 5000 combat aircraft. They have a lot fewer now. [just about 2000 total according to the best available open source material.]Airfields all over Russia with piles of fighters stacked on the outer perimeters, along with all sorts of other VVS aircraft. Google Earth is fun.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 8:19 PM
You got a mouse in your pocket?
hillbillyjim on August 13, 2008 at 8:19 PM
I remember when you claimed the Russian Air Force was superior to the USAF.
You were utterly and absolutely wrong, and didn’t acknowledge it.
Remember that?
MadisonConservative on August 13, 2008 at 8:20 PM
You don’t need near as many when the enemy can’t see them.
Johan Klaus on August 13, 2008 at 8:20 PM
Madison,
You cited Newsmax as a “source.”
How embarrassing for you…
alphie on August 13, 2008 at 8:20 PM
alphie,
You talked out of your backside, were shown to be a moron, and acknowledged nothing of it.
How typical for you…
MadisonConservative on August 13, 2008 at 8:23 PM
So, there we were, Russians occupying Abkhazia, sinking three Georgian ships at berth in Poti, a column of Russian armor within 13 miles of Tblisis…UN and EU and US relief and logistics flights staging at Tblisi International Airport…
Can we get back to the thread? :-)
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 8:24 PM
Hahaha! I was the only engineering type in the class for ESP at Indian Head when I went through. A room full of FTs, GMs and weapons officers and one MM. Talk about being out of place! I placed second in the class, one senior officer type beat me by one point. I only got killed once :-)
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 8:26 PM
All I said was it’s a good read, didn’t comment on the veracity of it’s contents.
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 8:28 PM
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 8:26 PM –
Used to live right up the road from Indian Head, my kids played soccer and little league on base. We (my old office) had some “work” done for us there, as well. I will in future defer to you on certain matters… :-)
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 8:30 PM
My course there was limited to a “Certain Type” of munition. I am not in any way associated with EOD outside of those specific things.
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 8:33 PM
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 8:33 PM –
One of the things I like about HA (and over at CQ in the old days) are the numbers of posters with real experience and real depth that post(ed) as opposed to too many other sites where everyone is an “expert” and when you read their posts it is obvious that they are not.
[My problem is having to check myself from time to time... a few things are and will forever be verboten for public discourse.]
Anyway, just keeping mental track of who has professional faculties in what areas. BZ.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 8:38 PM
I’m still at it, working on stuff for Dahlgren. While on the boat, I was on the NUWEDs team, which is short for suicide squad. Sheesh…just thinking about it makes my hair stand up, still.
Back to the topic at hand:
I need to hear some words from the rest of NATO, especially Turkey. This event is literally in their backyard.
Where is the surrender offer from the EU?
BobMbx on August 13, 2008 at 8:42 PM
I do not want a war with Russia over Georgia or anything else. I doubt that we could go in there and just slap them and that would be the end of it.
But we do need to stand by the Georgian people and try to do what we can to stop this. If we send our people in there that might stop the Russians. We should not turn our back on Georgia.
Terrye on August 13, 2008 at 8:45 PM
More human shields, Terrye?
Interesting…
alphie on August 13, 2008 at 8:47 PM
NATO just banned the Russians from taking part in a NATO naval exercise in Med. NATO’s Operation Active Endeavour, begun annually in 2001, after 9-11, was to have included the Russian ship Ladny which arrived off the Med coast of Turkey, ready to take part, according to Reuters.
I have no idea how to do that tiny url thing. It is on Breitbart.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 8:48 PM
I know what you mean. That little cryptic interchange between BobMbx and myself a little earlier was just that. We were establishing our bona fides in NavSpeak. Bravo Zulu to you too.
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 8:51 PM
Small world, my daughter is a computer programmer at Dahlgren.
There may be some back channel stuff going on but it looks to me like NATO is sitting this one out. I’ve seen a few references to some NATO as opposed to U.S. humanitarian aid getting through but nothing to speak of.
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 8:55 PM
We don’t need that many to get the job done now.
My kitty says:
Et tu Brute on August 13, 2008 at 8:55 PM
I think Georgia is the loser, Et tu…they counted on the impotent American right.
Poor them:(
alphie on August 13, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Caught this little snippet from an AP report filed from Tblisi earlier today…
“Nevertheless, Georgian Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia said 50 Russian tanks entered Gori on Wednesday morning. Some of the Russian units that later left to camp outside the city were camouflaged with foliage.”
As if foliage is an effective camouflage from even the most rudimentary US and NATO systems. So much for the modernized Russian Army.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 9:00 PM
Poor you for not being able to distinguish between the Wright Brothers plane and a 747. You still here?
MadisonConservative on August 13, 2008 at 9:02 PM
Yes, and it’s a much more elegant way to find common ground than using some two-handed circular gesture.
Kudos to whoever it was that likened it to Morks’ Nanu Nanu greeting. Brilliance.
BobMbx on August 13, 2008 at 9:08 PM
BobMbx on August 13, 2008 at 9:08 PM –
That hand gesture…seems to prove that the followers of the Obamasiah believe “nothing” is sacred.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 9:10 PM
Alphie has no concept of military hardware, strategy or tactics. A non sequitur.
My kitty says:
Et tu Brute on August 13, 2008 at 9:12 PM
ROFLMAO! Imagine the reaction if you made that sign on the boat. Cruel and unusual would not even begin to describe it. It’d be thumbs in the vice and break out the grease gun.
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 9:15 PM
Remember: The Russians can shoot back.
They can even hit your kid’s school if they want.
How much is Georgia worth to you?(Question doesn’t apply to McCain’s staff).
alphie on August 13, 2008 at 7:46 PM
Unless it’s an all-out strike, we could take out most nukes Tzar Alexander might throw at us. And then we get MAD. Tzar Alex isn’t dumb enough to try.
And yes I’d sacrifice San Fransisco for Georgia.
Don Carne on August 13, 2008 at 9:18 PM
I know we tend not to lose any planes when we stick to attacking folks who can’t shoot back at our planes, et tu.
And I’m always amazed to see people who are soo proud of mastering knowledge designed for someone with an I.Q. 80 to pick up in a few weeks!
Well done, lads!
alphie on August 13, 2008 at 9:18 PM
Assets have and are being moved into position, 2 E8 Jstars battlefield management aircraft were personally observed transiting central Mass. east bound at altitude, followed (20 minutes or so) by a KC-10. Could be a normal rotation but those flights normally occur at night and without support.
dmann on August 13, 2008 at 9:22 PM
When was that?
We built about 10,000 F-96s, about 1400 F-102/F-106s, about 4000 F-4 Phantoms, 1000 F-15s and 4400 F-16s. Those production figures were over many years, sometimes decades. While at any one time the USAF may have had over 2000 operational fighter or attack aircraft, I think your comment is hyperbole.
While we’ve only built and deployed about a gross of F-22s, the vast majority of our F-16 and F-15 aircraft are still in service. Of course this doesn’t include A-10 and other “A” designation attack planes.
Also that doesn’t include the jets flown by the Marines and Navy. We have seven super carriers that each have an air wing of about 100 combat aircraft. Our Navy has a bigger “air force” than all but a handful of countries.
As for you silly claim that Russian planes are superior to American combat aircraft, whenever US and Russian fighters have gone head to head, it’s been embarrassing to the Russians. Against the Syrians in the 1980s, Israeli F-16s had a 44-0 kill ratio, with the IAF shooting down a total of 92 Syrian fighters, leading some to describe the IAF as the “worlds largest distributor of MiG parts”.
While in *exercises*, the F-16 has been “killed” by MiGs, there are no confirmed kills of F-16 or F-15 jets by Russian fighters in actual combat, and the F-16 has confirmed kills of both MiG-25 and MiG-29 planes.
The F-15, considered a superior weapon to the F-16, had a 26-0 kill ratio in the first gulf war.
Please cite even a single case where in actual combat a MiG or SU has shot down a F-15, F-16, F-14 or F-18.
rokemronnie on August 13, 2008 at 9:23 PM
I’d recommend nuking San Fran just to demonstrate we mean business, but I don’t want to get banned.
TexasDan on August 13, 2008 at 9:26 PM
alphie:
Ask John McCain if they can shoot back. He had personal experience with that.
It is really touching the way you manage to besmirch the American military for no other reason than the sheer nasty fun of it.
Keep talking. Folks like you are exactly why Republicans usually end up winning the White House. You run people off.
Terrye on August 13, 2008 at 9:26 PM
Oh lord, the Davy Crockett Rocket. I’d forgotten about that one.
My goodness, whos’ brainy idea was it anyway? A shoulder fired nuke. The imagination runs wild…..
“….Corporal! Get on the .50 and lay down suppressing fire!….Jones! Get your head out of you ass, son…see that building way over there?…Good! Hit it with your Crocket!”
I think BAR was good enough.
BobMbx on August 13, 2008 at 9:28 PM
Facts are indignant.
alphie, do you realize that you argue against intervention in Georgia, and you call the Americans weak, concurrently, for not intervening? With your types it’s hard to win, ever. I think that you are actually Cindy Sheehan.
Congratulations, alphie’s 9:18 PM snarl from a chair in American suburbia notwithstanding. Also, I think you got “killed” twice now, the 2nd time by alphie.
coldwarrior, small gesture, just for you.
Entelechy on August 13, 2008 at 9:29 PM
alphie is what backseaters call Anomalous Propagation you need to keep a wary eye on the return but 99.9% of the time all you get is headache if you don’t turn down the gain!
dmann on August 13, 2008 at 9:31 PM
carbon_footpring, here’s your second+ reason why alphie is a liberal – they love to look down on the little people they so ‘adore’ and ‘protect’, and the ones with low IQs.
Entelechy on August 13, 2008 at 9:32 PM
BobMbx on August 13, 2008 at 9:28 PM –
I remember those from my younger days as an Army brat. As I grew older, and was in uniform, the thought struck me, as a young NCO, that giving a Lieutenant control of a nuke was one of the stupidest ideas to come down the pike.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 9:34 PM
Not really. Alphie is non existent to me. I don’t even see his/her posts. Can you explain to coldwarrior how to do links. I tried to put together an explanation but I couldn’t seem to compile it in a coherent paragraph.
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Entelechy on August 13, 2008 at 9:29 PM –
Thank you.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Say what now???
Look, alphie may have failed history – that “60 years w/o a serious fight” is pure BS – but how the heck do you think we will lose LESS troops fighting Russia?!* If we lost 5000 men against the turbanheads with hodge-podge weaponry and comparatively little manpower, what can we expect against a country with a proper military force?
In 2007 the Russians had about 1.2 million troops.(1) You can bet they have more now. They have gear the Afghan and Iraq armies could only dream of; thousands of tanks, artillery pieces, SAM missiles.(2) An air force capable of more than providing target practice for the USAF. A half-decent navy, including fast-attack and missile submarines. Sizable stores of chemical and germ weapons. And of course ICBM nuclear missiles with multiple delivery systems.
Our Clintonized military carrying out a three-front war is all but impossible. If it comes down to bullets and bombs, Russia will be quite capable of putting up a proper fight instead of a half-baked guerrilla war.
(1)http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/army-intro.htm
(2)http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/army-equipment.htm
*Barring a diplomatic win or a chickenout.
Dark-Star on August 13, 2008 at 9:37 PM
Oldnuke on August 13, 2008 at 9:35 PM –
Thanks, as well. Been playing around a bit…figured it out. Old dog. New tricks. Always difficult. Too proud to ask my kids how to do it.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 9:38 PM
carbon_footpring – so sorry, I bodged your nom de plume – s/b carbon_footprint, of course.
Heh, Oldnuke, I was about to do that :) Great minds…wait, 80 IQ’d minds…you miss great entertainment if you don’t read illustrious alphie, who’s really harmless.
Entelechy on August 13, 2008 at 9:39 PM
Type the text you want to appear in your comment, then highlight that text and select the “link” button above the comment box. You many have to temporarily allow popups to get the script to run. Once you’ve allowed popups, and the little “link” window appears, put the text for the internet address you wish to link to into the box and click “ok”.
Your comment box will look funny, but try running the “preview” button and your link should work there.
TexasDan on August 13, 2008 at 9:41 PM
TexasDan on August 13, 2008 at 9:41 PM –
Thank you, as well. Much appreciated.
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 9:42 PM
dmann,
“what backseaters call Anomalous Propagation ”
By backseaters you mean the FIBs?
exhelodrvr on August 13, 2008 at 9:43 PM
“And I’m always amazed to see people who are soo proud of mastering knowledge designed for someone with an I.Q. 80 to pick up in a few weeks”
Yeah, alphie, you have made a lot of progress since July.
exhelodrvr on August 13, 2008 at 9:46 PM
coldwarrior on August 13, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Not for much. Here we go:
1. Click on any link with the left mouse button, to highlight it.
2. Click on it with the right mouse button, then with the left one click on Copy
3. Go to your comment on HA, highlight any words you wish to link to, then click on the blue link on top of the comment, between emphasis and quote.
4. When the little window opens, make sure that http is highlit, point your cursor on it, hit the right button of your mouse, select paste with the left one.
5. Click ok to close that little window, then continue writing your comment, or submit your comment.
Of course, you can preview it first. Try it – if you fail, no big deal. No one, other than alphie, will hold it against you.
Entelechy on August 13, 2008 at 9:47 PM
Ye of little faith. Show some intestinal fortitude.
My kitty says:
Et tu Brute on August 13, 2008 at 9:47 PM
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