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The Pause That Deposes

posted at 8:05 am on August 12, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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A number of reports have the Russians halting their military advance in Georgia, supposedly to negotiate a peaceful end to the conflict in the Caucasus.  However, the Russians have something very different in mind.  Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov refused to negotiate with Georgia’s elected government, saying publicly that Mikheil Saakashvili “has to go”, while President Dmitri Medvedev ordered his troops to “crush” any remaining Georgian resistance.

If that sounds like peace, it’s the peace of the graveyard:

Medvedev ordered the military to quell any signs of Georgian resistance.

“If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them,” he told his defense minister at a Kremlin meeting.

Russia’s foreign minister, meanwhile, said that Georgia’s president must leave office and Georgian troops should stay out of the pro-Russian South Ossetia region for good.

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Moscow won’t talk to President Mikhail Saakashvili and Saakashvili “better go.”

The game plan has been revealed, for those who still hadn’t realized Russia’s larger plan. Putin doesn’t want Western-friendly governments in the former Soviet republics; he wants puppet governments answerable to Moscow.  He supported the separatists in the Caucasus in order to deliberately provoke a incident he could exploit to depose the freely-elected government in Tbilisi and impose Russian rule through a proxy government imposed by force.

The demand for Saakashvili to resign should offend every free nation on Earth.  Saakashvili represents Georgia, not the newly-birthed Russian Empire, and Moscow has no right to demand that a freely-elected president resign under force of arms.  Free nations should also look toward Ukraine and recognize the next victim on Putin’s list.

For those who call this a peace, it is no such thing.  The Russians have their boot on Georgia’s throat, and have only paused to get a surrender.  (via Mark Impomeni)


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It must be that time of the month again! ::sigh::

OldEnglish on August 12, 2008 at 12:18 PM

Sorta crabby today, aren’t you? I keep forgetting that some of us don’t have wives at home that love us the night before. Sorry, man. I imagine five fingered Mary gets old after a while. Well, look at it this way, Christmas is coming up, I’m sure you’ll get some.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:56 AM

So exactly where did I insult you, especially in a sexual manner? Sounds like a…

…long-recognized immature tactic, especially when used unprovoked.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:36 AM

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:18 PM

it makes you no less a dick ;-)

-Wasteland Man.

WastelandMan on August 12, 2008 at 12:03 PM

Big whoop.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:19 PM

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:18 PM

Quit crying.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:19 PM

MadisonConservative,

fossten sure seems to fixate on whether other people are getting enough sex.

Projection perhaps?

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 12:20 PM

Quit crying.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:19 PM

Yeah, sorry. When I quote your words, I’m quoting crying.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:21 PM

Quit crying.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:19 PM

In the meantime, do you have the integrity to explain how you could complain about name calling in the sentence after you called me a child?

My guess is no. Care to prove me wrong?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:22 PM

I will not argue about the topic today. Let me just repeat my predictions that I made yesterday. Feel free to bash me with them if I turn out to be wrong. Which is possible.

Saakashvili will remain President of Georgia
Ossetia will certainly never be Georgian anymore.
Abkhazia will probably get independence, although I’m not sure about this one.

freevillage on August 12, 2008 at 12:23 PM

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:19 PM

troll troll troll troll troll troll…

the debate tactics seem to have flown out the window Gentlemen.
The “ad hominem-strawmen” musta gone to lunch!

uh I thought I DID see a couple of decent posts on the state of the Russian/Georgian conflict afore Fossten stole the thread complaining about debate tactics.
Maybe we could talk about that and ignore the troll feller.

-Wasteland Man.

WastelandMan on August 12, 2008 at 12:24 PM

Saakashvili will remain President of Georgia

Disagree.

Ossetia will certainly never be Georgian anymore.

Agree.

Abkhazia will probably get independence, although I’m not sure about this one.

freevillage on August 12, 2008 at 12:23 PM

Doubtful. Russian troops marched right in there, and I don’t think Putin will want them leaving.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:27 PM

I will not argue about the topic today.

freevillage on August 12, 2008 at 12:23 PM

Don’t worry about it – no-one else is, apparently.

OldEnglish on August 12, 2008 at 12:28 PM

Umm… did I miss the memo on threadjacking?

wccawa on August 12, 2008 at 12:29 PM

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:22 PM

Channeling Mary Mapes, eh? More whining.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:31 PM

WastelandMan on August 12, 2008 at 12:24 PM

Giving me a lot of credit. I didn’t know I could steal a thread. But I challenge you to total up my posts that were actually on topic, and contrast them to Madison’s or MarkTheHypocrite’s off topic bonanza, and you’ll see who’s trolling. It’s not even close.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:32 PM

Channeling Mary Mapes, eh? More whining.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:31 PM

Seems my guess was correct, so here’s my first insult to you: You’re gutless and hypocritical.

Now, by your logic, I’m only responding to your insults, so they’re justifiable, right?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:33 PM

Umm… did I miss the memo on threadjacking?

wccawa on August 12, 2008 at 12:29 PM

Yeah. Now that the Fred threads have gone by the way, and csdeven no longer supplies entertaining trolling, we are free to target new ones.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:37 PM

fossten,

You had a post on topic? All I saw was you complaining about other people’s debate tactics.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 12:37 PM

Seems my guess was correct, so here’s my first insult to you: You’re gutless and hypocritical.

Now, by your logic, I’m only responding to your insults, so they’re justifiable, right?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:33 PM

Don’t blame me for your frustrations. I’m only playing the game by yours and Mark’s rules. You guys are such fanbois of each other, after all. It’s not my fault you’re devoid of any intellectual honesty.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:38 PM

We have a good half-dozen threads on the Georgia situation.

If one of them gets jacked by the latest troll, it’s not that big a deal.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 12:38 PM

Don’t blame me for your frustrations. I’m only playing the game by yours and Mark’s rules.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:38 PM

You insulted me when I had not insulted you, after complaining about people making unprovoked insults.

…hypocrite much?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:41 PM

fossten,

You had a post on topic? All I saw was you complaining about other people’s debate tactics.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 12:37 PM

Your reading comprehension blows.

Also, all I saw was you asking people questions. I have yet to see you stake out a position on anything, but you have somehow managed to read other people’s minds. Obviously, you are truly, truly Great.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:41 PM

Georgia is not his first step. It is not his last step. If a former republic, now independent, or trying to become independent, refuses to allow siloviki to “manage their “new” governments, they will face the same Georgia is now experiencing…hence the calls that Saakashvili “better go.”

coldwarrior on August 12, 2008 at 9:05 AM

Thanks for posting coldwarrior. I’ve come to appreciate your insights and willingness to share.

Now we hear calls for investigation of genocide by Georgian troops which I assume is to put the pressure on removing Saakashvili from his presidency. Do you think that this is also on a personal level for Putin? I could imagine that Putin felt personal humiliation when Saakashvili lead the Rose Revolution and deposed Putin’s puppet without firing a shot.

Texas Gal on August 12, 2008 at 12:43 PM

You insulted me when I had not insulted you, after complaining about people making unprovoked insults.

…hypocrite much?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:41 PM

Should I assume you meant the following as a compliment?

Good god, you’re mind-boggling.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 9:55 AM

Liar much?

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:45 PM

if I were running things, here’s how it would go…

The ruskies want to play , let’s effin play. I want Afghanistan leveled and completely controlled by the United states. Occupied, held. Under the guise of the war on terror. Then I would want Bin Laden Dead within a month. and his severed head on a pike on the Afghani-Russo border.

Screw the Pakistanis not letting us have free reign of the border provinces. This was all cute and everything when we were fighting Rogue nations, tiny little terror cells, but this is Russia. As a display of might to the Russians, the US REALLY needs Bin Laden dead.

I’m not saying go to war with Russia, but this is a challenge to the US, this is their way of saying “The US is impotent in the former Soviet Union”. If we can occupy and VERY publicly hold Afghanistan in a way the USSR could not, I think this would send a powerful message.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 12:45 PM

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:45 PM

No, it wasn’t meant as a compliment. It was, however, not an insult. Merely an exclamation at such an asinine statement as North Korea’s lack of light being somehow relevant to their nuclear threat.

And I’m still waiting for you to explain your outright sexual insults. Like I said, you’re gutless, and I’m waiting for you to show otherwise.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:50 PM

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:45 PM

Also, why do you have a dating site as your link? Are you that desperate?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:51 PM

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 12:45 PM

I happen to agree with your stance on this, but those on this site who have experience in military matters are adamant that the US does not have the resources at this juncture. Even helping Georgia seems to be beyond the capabilities of US forces, right now.

OldEnglish on August 12, 2008 at 12:53 PM

I’m sorry, would you two please be adults and take this elsewhere…take it to MadisonConservative’s blog. You’re not talking at ALL about the subject of the thread any more.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 12:54 PM

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 12:45 PM

The Russians are counting on Obama getting elected, and barring that, the libs in Congress skewering Bush and McCain so that they can’t stand up to Medvedev/Putin. Your idea is interesting, but I’m not sure blasting Pakistan will bother the Russkies.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:55 PM

Also, why do you have a dating site as your link? Are you that desperate?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:51 PM

Wow, you really are an imbecile.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:56 PM

OldEnglish on August 12, 2008 at 12:53 PM

Unfortunately I’m afraid you’re correct.

Perhaps all of Europe could do it, This flies in the face of NATO almost as badly as it does the US. The Russians may still be a bear, but I think now they are only a black bear and could be scared off by the appropriate display of noise and strength. Let them roll through the balkins, former Yougoslav republics, the “Stans” and become emboldened, I’m not so sure.

It is certainly in Europe’s best interest to keep Russia down…even France understands that.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 12:57 PM

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 12:57 PM

Rush just pointed out that the difference b/t now and the cold war is that the Russians have money. They were broke back then, but the oil bonanza has enriched them. They don’t have to back down from us this time.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:58 PM

The Russians are counting on Obama getting elected, and barring that, the libs in Congress skewering Bush and McCain so that they can’t stand up to Medvedev/Putin. Your idea is interesting, but I’m not sure blasting Pakistan will bother the Russkies.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:55 PM

No, I’m just pissed that Pakistan hasn’t let us do what we have to do. I don’t want to blast them. I want to put down the Taliban once and for all. Call it genocide if you will, but I’d like them all dead.

I want to hold Afghanistan. Pakistan is too important an ally to try and occupy them.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 12:59 PM

Let Poland, Ukraine, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia keep their places at the front of the anti-Putin efforts.

Estonia sent computer experts to Georgia to help with the electronic warfare. Ukraine is going to block Russian use of its ports. Poland and the rest are smart, tough, formidable people who understand the threat of a resurgent iron curtain a whole lot better that we do.

It’s narcissism in the extreme to think that we are the only solution. For the perfect example of this, look at the post featuring the Tim Kaine interview, where he attributes Russia’s openness to a cease fire to their bowing to pressure from … Obama?

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 12:59 PM

Wow, you really are an imbecile.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:56 PM

*sigh*

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:59 PM

And I’m still waiting for you to explain your outright sexual insults. Like I said, you’re gutless, and I’m waiting for you to show otherwise.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:50 PM

Speaking of gutless, please explain why you thought I linked to a dating website. Or are you just too lazy to fact check before you spew? (Puts popcorn in the microwave)

Also, why do you have a dating site as your link? Are you that desperate?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:51 PM

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:00 PM

Obviously, you are truly, truly Great.

Thank you for finally coming around.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 1:02 PM

No, I’m just pissed that Pakistan hasn’t let us do what we have to do. I don’t want to blast them. I want to put down the Taliban once and for all. Call it genocide if you will, but I’d like them all dead.

I want to hold Afghanistan. Pakistan is too important an ally to try and occupy them.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 12:59 PM

I don’t disagree with you, but we should have done it that way in the first place. Now that we’re occupying, we’re expected to be somewhat benevolent. There is no way to avoid accusations of genocide if we suddenly get brutal, and the accusations would be right. The time to flatten countries is during the war, not during the occupation.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:02 PM

Rush just pointed out that the difference b/t now and the cold war is that the Russians have money. They were broke back then, but the oil bonanza has enriched them. They don’t have to back down from us this time.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 12:58 PM

They may have money, but I don’t think they’re adequately mechanized for full scale conflict with the west. This Georgia thing was SO well planned. It was like an exercise. It reminds me of Nagasaki…”Drop another one so they know we have more than one”…nobody asked if we had more than 2.

I feel like this is kind of smoke and mirrors, and was possibly quite costly to the still ailing Russian Military machine. I could CERTAINLY be mistaken though.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 1:02 PM

I feel like this is kind of smoke and mirrors, and was possibly quite costly to the still ailing Russian Military machine. I could CERTAINLY be mistaken though.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 1:02 PM

Yeah, but do we have the guts to call their bluff?

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:04 PM

The moment we went into Iraq, I was concerned about Putin planning this. When Russia begen earning the huge windfall from oil and gas, I knew that money would go into military, thus sealing the deal.

marklmail on August 12, 2008 at 1:04 PM

And this gives me pause. The original article was in the Weekly Standard, which means it’s not Russkie or LaRouchian propaganda. (and it’s from 2004, so wasn’t written to try to influence this conflict).

Georgia on His Mind – George Soros’s Potemkin Revolution.

By Amb. Richard Carlson
The Weekly Standard
May 24, 2004

At the Voice of America during the Cold War some of the most troublesome employees were those who broadcast daily to the Soviet Union and its satellite states, in Russian, Azeri, Georgian, Ukrainian, Serbo-Croatian, and so on. These staffers were often émigrés–well-educated, sometimes understandably bitter men and women whose attitudes had been formed by a Communist political system in which errors in judgment or action brought disproportional punishment, while rewards could derive from deep, back-channel manipulation of appearances and an avoidance of responsibility. (”Deny everything, make counter-allegations” seemed the guideline in discussions with senior managers. “I didn’t do it. He did!” the standard retort.)

Of the more than 50 VOA language services at that time, the most blustering and contentious, emanating a continuing, colorful, and aggressive hostility to management (accompanied by an ironic, bizarre willingness to grovel to tough, uncompromising leadership) was that which broadcast to the Soviet Republic of Georgia.

I was in Georgia last month, and it is still colorful and still difficult, a poor country, poorer even than Haiti, with a new president but the same culture–one that cultivates a swaggering, prideful masculinity in its leaders who, since the fall of the Soviet Union, have been lionized by the U.S. foreign policy establishment and the Western press but who just as quickly seem to morph from lion to demon.

A case in point is Eduard Shevardnadze, once the Soviet foreign minister, who was for more than a dozen years invariably described in the West as a stalwart friend of democracy and a liberal, honest fellow. Six months ago, he was ousted as the president of Georgia in a coup led by his young protégé, Mikhail Saakashvili, who is glorying in the same lavish treatment from the State Department and the media. They now paint him as honest, liberal, and democratic, while Shevardnadze is Bronx-cheered as corrupt and murderous, a brute who was forced from office by what Saakashvili (with an unerring eye for the sixties-sentimentality of the Western media) dubs “The Rose Revolution.”

Late last fall, Saakashvili led thousands of “spontaneous” demonstrators, bused in from around Tbilisi, brandishing flowers as they invaded the president’s palace. This was during the freezing Georgian winter when any roses not black and brittle had to be flown or trucked in, courtesy of the same bankroll that funded the fleet of rented buses for demonstrators: that of George Soros, the Hungarian-born billionaire and egotist. A former member of the Georgian Parliament said that in the three months before the “Rose Revolution,” “from August through October, Soros spent $42 million ramping-up for the overthrow of Shevardnadze.”

Soros has publicly committed himself to funding the “democratic” presidency of Mikhail Saakashvili, just as he has publicly committed himself and his money to the destruction of the presidency of George W. Bush, whom he has compared to Yasser Arafat and Hitler. Soros and the United Nations are paying the wages of all of Saakashvili’s top government officials–ministers, deputies, the road police, and others–on the grounds that this will keep them from stealing. As if bribery and corruption were simply a problem of immediate financial need, not greed.

Shevardnadze’s attempt to rig the November 2003 parliamentary elections was a handy catalyst for the coup, but it was already in the works. The previous summer Soros had flown Saakashvili and his followers to a seminar he sponsored in Belgrade on how to stage your own “Velvet Revolution.” And perhaps Soros would deserve some credit–except for the undeniable fact that, ever since his anointing in a crooked election in January, Saakashvili has sounded more like a raging nationalist and authoritarian thug than a democrat strewing rose petals.

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/in_the_media/in_the_media_show.htm?doc_id=225687

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:05 PM

It is certainly in Europe’s best interest to keep Russia down…even France understands that.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 12:57 PM

Sarkhozy may understand, but the French people couldn’t care less. As possibly the most Socialist country in all of Europe, they are much more concerned about the length of the working week etc, than with the plight of foreigners.

OldEnglish on August 12, 2008 at 1:05 PM

I don’t disagree with you, but we should have done it that way in the first place. Now that we’re occupying, we’re expected to be somewhat benevolent. There is no way to avoid accusations of genocide if we suddenly get brutal, and the accusations would be right. The time to flatten countries is during the war, not during the occupation.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:02 PM

This is a good point. Perhaps we pull out of Afghanistan for 6 months and let things “simmer”…As I said before…the shit with the terrorists was checkers, this is chess, and we may have to play a gambit to make sure it doesn’t go too far.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 1:06 PM

Yeah, but do we have the guts to call their bluff?

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:04 PM

It has to happen now if it going to happen.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 1:07 PM

The best thing about this is now we may finally see the sequel to “Spies Like Us” and “Gotchya”

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 1:09 PM

This is a good point. Perhaps we pull out of Afghanistan for 6 months and let things “simmer”…As I said before…the shit with the terrorists was checkers, this is chess, and we may have to play a gambit to make sure it doesn’t go too far.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 1:06 PM

Yeah, we’re between a rock and a hard place. How do we not pull out of Afghanistan to deal with Russia, and what if China decides after the Olympics would be a good time to move on Taiwan?

Yecchhhh.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:09 PM

Yeah, we’re between a rock and a hard place. How do we not pull out of Afghanistan to deal with Russia, and what if China decides after the Olympics would be a good time to move on Taiwan?

Yecchhhh.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:09 PM

Interesting times to say the least.

beefytee on August 12, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Speaking of gutless, please explain why you thought I linked to a dating website.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:00 PM

Pictures of couples. Paid membership. Call it like I see it, regardless of the presentation, and so far your whining and conduct convinces me you spend your life savings at such establishments.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:12 PM

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:05 PM

Strange bedfellows, indeed. However, would you really consider that enough to question Saakashvili and the state of Georgia?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:13 PM

Pictures of couples. Paid membership. Call it like I see it, regardless of the presentation, and so far your whining and conduct convinces me you spend your life savings at such establishments.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Call it like you see it, but you can’t read? That settles it, you’re either a liar or an utter moron. I’m leaning toward both.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:17 PM

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/in_the_media/in_the_media_show.htm?doc_id=225687

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:05 PM

Thanks for that link. Soros and the UN are paying the salaries of the Georgian gov’t? Wow.

Y’all really need to read the rest of the article at that link. Read the list of former Georgian leaders the current president’s wife compares him to.

TexasDan on August 12, 2008 at 1:18 PM

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:17 PM

You refuse to answer direct questions. That’s about as bad as it gets, bub.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:21 PM

Thanks for that link. Soros and the UN are paying the salaries of the Georgian gov’t? Wow.

Y’all really need to read the rest of the article at that link. Read the list of former Georgian leaders the current president’s wife compares him to.

TexasDan on August 12, 2008 at 1:18 PM

Soros is Hungarian, a state which fought off the last vestiges of Communism in the 1990s. While I have no love for the man, we may have a common cause in wanting to keep Putin’s hands out of the Caucasus.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:22 PM

You refuse to answer direct questions. That’s about as bad as it gets, bub.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:21 PM

Which question are you referring to?

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM

Pictures of couples. Paid membership.

No wonder he spends so much time thinking about other people and sex.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM

more:

“It is democracy in a china shop,” the New York Times reported on March 28. “A growing number of critics, though, say that the new president is exploiting his popularity to cut legal corners, violate human rights and silence opposition views.” “Saakashvili’s all-powerful party is getting into the habit of ignoring the law, or changing it, when it does not suit their purpose,” reported Agence France-Presse.

Saakashvili, now 36, was an only child with an absent father. He was raised by a divorced, domineering, and ambitious mother, and his tough-talking Dutch-born wife, Sandra Roelof, appears to follow in that tradition. (Saakashvili married her in lower Manhattan in 1993 while he was attending Columbia for a year on a U.S. taxpayer-funded scholarship.) In February, Roelof gave an interview to a Dutch magazine for a breathless Vanity Fair-like profile headlined “Sandra Roelof’s Fairy Tale: From a Zeeuws Girl to First Lady of Georgia.” Roelof seems to have taken to Georgian politics:

Georgia has produced strong leaders. Stalin, Beria, Gamsakhurdia. Even Shevardnadze, before he got addicted to power. They looked beyond Georgia. My husband does the same; he fits in the tradition. This country needs a strong hand. It is incredibly important that respect for authority returns. That laws are less frequently broken, that people simply pay their bills for once. There is hardly a sense of responsibility here. . . . I think my husband is the right person to frighten people. That is not to say it is immediately fascism or something. Should he develop extremist traits he will be alerted to that. All eyes are looking at us now.

What a roll call! Stalin’s birthplace in Gori, Georgia, close to the Saakashvilis’ home in Tbilisi, is still maintained as a public museum, though the crimes of the man against his own people, particularly native Georgians, are beyond repeating, and Sandra Roelof’s citation appears demented. One would think Stalin’s house would have been burned down long ago, the ashes scattered to the cold Caucasus winds–and I’m not speaking just metaphorically. If Saakashvili wants to really make some democratic bones, he might drive to Gori and light the ceremonial match.

The second man to whom Sandra Roelof compares her husband is Lavrenty Beria, Stalin’s secret police czar and the Georgian-born father of the Soviet Gulag. Beria, a notorious pedophile, was responsible for the deaths of millions of Soviet citizens. He was executed on Khrushchev’s order after Stalin’s death in 1953.

Next on Roelof’s list is Zviad Gamsakhurdia, the first elected president of Georgia, a rabid nationalist completely intolerant of any opposition. He was deposed in a coup in the early ’90s and later shot himself in the head (or was murdered). Two weeks ago Saakashvili announced that 2004 would be “the year of Gamsakhurdia,” whatever that is intended to mean.

The last of Roelof’s major players is Shevardnadze, the mentoring father figure Saakashvili never had, who brought him into parliament, appointed him to his cabinet, and guided him along until Saakashvili turned and stabbed him. Despite the relentless encomiums from the last three U.S. administrations, Shevardnadze was brutal and corrupt. (Saakashvili, who lives around the corner from Shevardnadze in Tbilisi, has never had him arrested.)

The British Helsinki Human Rights Group recently compared Saakashvili’s regime to that of Shevardnadze, noting that “Saakashvili has unleashed a wave of arrests against real and imagined opponents, and, like Shevardnadze when he first came to power, his new regime has targeted any media outlet which steps out of line.” The report said, “Since Saakashvili won the grotesque presidential election in January 2004, when he was awarded an even higher percentage of the vote than Shevardnadze granted himself in 1992, waves of arrests and media closures have hit Georgia.”

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/in_the_media/in_the_media_show.htm?doc_id=225687

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:24 PM

You refuse to answer direct questions. That’s about as bad as it gets, bub.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:21 PM

Really pathetic dodge on your part. You won’t acknowledge being a liar, so you must be a moron. Either way, you are successful only at mischaracterizing things. It’s called demagoguing, and you are the posterboy.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:24 PM

No wonder he spends so much time thinking about other people and sex.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM

Ah, the fanboy speaks up. You’re too lazy to click the link as well, so both of you are liars. Not so great, are you Marky.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:25 PM

Which question are you referring to?

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM

12:22PM. Read up.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:26 PM

Strange bedfellows, indeed. However, would you really consider that enough to question Saakashvili and the state of Georgia?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:13 PM

Is the leader of Georgia better than Putin? Yes. Better enough to go to war for?

Diep was better than Uncle Ho. Better enough to have gone to war for? um….

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:26 PM

Diep was better than Uncle Ho. Better enough to have gone to war for? um….

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:26 PM

Dude, that’s a WHOLE other discussion…

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:27 PM

This is all premeditated by the Russians. McCain was correct that when you see Putin, you spell it KGB. Putin signed a declaration that Georgia, etc were Russian property when NATO stumbled and dropped the ball. Big surprise there. This whole thing started in East Ossetia when Putin ordered pro-Russian rebels to attack Georgian troops and facilities in East Ossetia. Again… the Russian Bear, spelled KGB.

ultracon on August 12, 2008 at 1:29 PM

12:22PM. Read up.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:26 PM

You mischaracterize my website, and you want me to answer your petty question? That’s richly hypocritical. You have no integrity whatsoever, MadisonLiar.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:29 PM

We need to sit back and give full support to folks in Poland, Finland, and the Baltic states, and Ukraine.

That’s what the Bush administration has done so far, and it is the right thing to do. This isn’t a bar brawl where you charge in without thinking.

War with Russia would cost us tens of thousands (at least) of our troops’ lives. We’d better be 100% sure that it is really in our national interest to do it.

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:29 PM

Is the leader of Georgia better than Putin? Yes. Better enough to go to war for?

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:26 PM

Did the leader of Georgia supply 2,000 troops to join the Coalition? Did the US support making Georgia a member of NATO?

Regardless of Soros’ other activities, you can’t use his support as a point of argument when your reasoning is based on political activities in an entirely different country. Plus, to be fair, considering Bush’s current lack of activity regarding the situation, it could be said that their opposing political standings are so far congruent to their support.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:31 PM

sigh Diem

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:32 PM

blah

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:29 PM

Like I said, no answer. Buh-bye, waste.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:32 PM

Ah, the fanboy speaks up. You’re too lazy to click the link as well, so both of you are liars. Not so great, are you Marky.

tsk, tsk, tsk.

You really should stop to think before posting fossten. You might save yourself from embarassment occassionally. I have never commented about your little linky. My references were to your frequent assertions that people are disagreeing with you because they didn’t get sex the night before.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 1:33 PM

We need to sit back and give full support to folks in Poland, Finland, and the Baltic states, and Ukraine.

That’s what the Bush administration has done so far, and it is the right thing to do. This isn’t a bar brawl where you charge in without thinking.

War with Russia would cost us tens of thousands (at least) of our troops’ lives. We’d better be 100% sure that it is really in our national interest to do it.

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:29 PM

Ukraine is next on the menu, so let’s see how much support we give them.

Also, Bush doesn’t have to react “without thinking”. Air support could have been supplied by mid-day Saturday with plenty of time to analyze logistics. Also, I don’t buy the tens of thousands of casualties. Russia may enjoy using their brutal tactics on a tiny, struggling newborn nation, but against their old nemesis, they would stop and think. My guess is hostilities would have ended before the weekend was out.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:35 PM

Diep was better than Uncle Ho. Better enough to have gone to war for? um….

Sometimes it comes down to more than which of two people is better. Without getting into a pissing match over whether Putin is better than the leader of Georgia, or is Georgia better than Russia, you also have to look at the big picture.

Will Russia be satisfied after it installs a puppet in Georgia, or is this just the first step in a campaign to retake the entire Caucus region, and perhaps more?

If you think the answer is no, then it really does come down to a comparison of the two. If you think that this is the first step of a long campaign, then it is better to get involved now, while we still have allies.

WWII would have been a lot easier had we been able to position our troops in France to begin with, rather than having to cross the channel.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 1:37 PM

Strange bedfellows, indeed. However, would you really consider that enough to question Saakashvili and the state of Georgia?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:13 PM

read the whole article.

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:38 PM

read the whole article.

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:38 PM

I did. What do you think I’m missing?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:39 PM

How many US troops were involved in forcing the Soviets out of Afghanistan?

The Russians are much weaker than the Soviets were, and the Georgians, Ukrainians, etc, are much better equiped and trained than the Afghans were.

They need our support, I doubt they will need our troops.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 1:40 PM

Air support could have been supplied by mid-day Saturday with plenty of time to analyze logistics

Militarly, factually incorrect. 100%. Unless you’re gonna send the B2s out of Whiteman. That’s a single pilot aircraft. Probably at least 2 in air refuelings. No fighter escort.

We have tanker problems, big time.

We simply don’t have the Air Force assets available to support it.

And they would be flying over (IMHO) pre-positioned, well supplied Russians, not Arabs. huge difference.

We have a little thug getting into a fight with a big thug. The little thug is a Soros man. Soros had a big hand in the Yugoslavia wars and knows how to manipulate western media.

That’s why we let Ukraine, Poland, the Baltics, and Finland take the lead. We give support. If in several months it looks like war is where we’re going, I sure as hell hope Bush starts infusing money and troop increases into the military RIGHT NOW.

And he needs to flush Gordon “the F22 is too expensive” England right out of the Pentagon.

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:44 PM

Militarly, factually incorrect. 100%. Unless you’re gonna send the B2s out of Whiteman. That’s a single pilot aircraft. Probably at least 2 in air refuelings. No fighter escort.

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:44 PM

Um…Iraq? Turkey? I’m pretty sure the latter would be interested in maintaining the buffer between them and Russia. This would be quite different than using their border to come into Iraq.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:48 PM

My references were to your frequent assertions that people are disagreeing with you because they didn’t get sex the night before.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 1:33 PM

Tsk, tsk, tsk, fanboy.

Speaking of not thinking before speaking…

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 1:54 PM

We simply don’t have the Air Force assets available to support it.

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:44 PM

If, if, if that’s true, then the U.S. Army needs to build it’s own Air Force and the current Air Force needs to be “YOU’RE FIRED!!!”.

MB4 on August 12, 2008 at 1:58 PM

I think Putin couldn’t have timed this worse. It is clear that at least part of Obama’s idea of change for America – especially the unilateral disarmament part – is to weaken our military. Putin is reminding us of reality. Obama looks less and less attractive by the minute.

Machiavelli taught the Prince: as to whether it is better to be loved than feared, that men can sometimes forget their love but they never forget their fear.
Remember that when comparing Putin’s foreign policy techniques with President Bush’s ‘winning hearts and minds’ doctrine.

“Ours is a great nation at risk in a dangerous world.” – MahaRushi

rishika on August 12, 2008 at 2:00 PM

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 1:29 PM

I think it’s highly unlikely we will go to war with Russia. We will however develop a strategy to stop the Russian aggression that will rely a great deal on individual European leaders and the EU. There are immediate issues to be addressed and long range strategies to be developed. WTO, G-8, NATO, are a few that come to mind.

The immediate issues are obvious and long range strategies will be dependent on who is in the lead, hopefully America understands that needs to be a strong president with experience. Not a junior Senator with no understanding of the world.

I’m not concerned about Soros’ involvement in the Rose Revolution nor his financing of the Georgian gov’t. I actually agree that it is important to give them enough salary to curtail any temptation towards corruption. (I wish we had that understanding where our own government employees are concerned.)

I have a friend who is Bulgarian. She had no love for Russia but she does speak Russian as one of her 4 languages. She often tells me that the old Russians are like well trained pets and the old adage of you can’t teach an old dog new tricks still applies even now since the fall of the USSR not just in Russia but as well as a lot of those old soviet states. I’ve no doubt that under the leadership of the previous president of Georgia, the tentacles of Mother Russian ran deep and it’s probably quite an undertaking since the new government came into place to undo those tentacles.

Sometimes I think that Soros’ biggest problem with Bush is out and out jealously. Bush’s philosophy of spreading democracy cut into Soros’ self-proclaimed global mission. Of course there are other issues but I think that’s the personal one Soros’s has with W.

Texas Gal on August 12, 2008 at 2:02 PM

fossten,

Still the liar I see,

Are we to assume you must not have gotten any last night?

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 8:44 AM

This was just the first of many.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 2:05 PM

Sometimes I think that Soros’ biggest problem with Bush is out and out jealously. Bush’s philosophy of spreading democracy cut into Soros’ self-proclaimed global mission. Of course there are other issues but I think that’s the personal one Soros’s has with W.

Texas Gal on August 12, 2008 at 2:02 PM

heh

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 2:10 PM

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 2:05 PM

Leave him be. Even if you corner him, he replies with snarky insults, and then complains about others insulting him.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 2:11 PM

Turkey isn’t the staunch ally that you think it is. Turkey and Iran share the “Kurdish Problem.” Russia is Iran’s chief source of support lately.

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 2:11 PM

Turkey isn’t the staunch ally that you think it is. Turkey and Iran share the “Kurdish Problem.” Russia is Iran’s chief source of support lately.

funky chicken on August 12, 2008 at 2:11 PM

True, but Turkey is more nervous about Russia and Iran than it is a questionable ally of ours. Georgia provides a buffer between them and the Bear, and the outcome of this could have repercussions for Iran’s policy of aggression. Also, as you said, they’ve got the Kurdish problem. If Russia seized Georgia, do you think they’d have any qualms about pushing back the Kurds into Turkey as far as possible? That is, if they didn’t simply kill them.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 2:25 PM

The best event during the Olympics was the Gold Russia took in Georgia. Let’s study and learn how this game is played by a master like Putin. No more planting kumbaya flowers around the world. They don’t take.

Also we need to step back and think this one through. Is the restoration of a neo-Tsarist Russian empire necessarily and inevitably bad for the USA? Putting another way, do Putin & Co hate America more than they love Russia? Yes means we have a kamikazi enemy. No means we have a potential strategic partner, but it’ll take smarts on our side.

We have to answer this 100% right.

dhimwit on August 12, 2008 at 2:51 PM

Rather than “the newly-birthed Russian Empire,” I would call this the newly rejuvenated Russian Empire going back to the Czars and including the Bolsheviks of the last century.

burt on August 12, 2008 at 3:29 PM

I am not a fan of Russia or Putin but Georgia deserved the spanking it got from the Russian military. The Russian action was a response to a massive violation of the ceasefire by Georgia. I’m sure that the US has yanked the chain on the Georgian leader and hopefully they will not be so stupid again.

lexhamfox on August 12, 2008 at 3:39 PM

Why am I not surprised to find lexhamfox parroting the Russian line?

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 3:54 PM

I am not a fan of Russia or Putin but Georgia deserved the spanking it got from the Russian military. The Russian action was a response to a massive violation of the ceasefire by Georgia. I’m sure that the US has yanked the chain on the Georgian leader and hopefully they will not be so stupid again.

lexhamfox on August 12, 2008 at 3:39 PM

So you fully support the shelling and bombing of major population centers of the country? You’ll be glad for every dead civilian Russia is responsible for in that sovereign nation?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 3:58 PM

The Russians would argue that they are fighting for the freedom of South Ossetia. Just saying.

fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:11 AM

And the Russians would be wrong–point of fact, they’d be lying. The Truth is not relative.

baldilocks on August 12, 2008 at 4:16 PM

Bigfoot on August 12, 2008 at 8:31 AM

True dat…

Liberty or Death on August 12, 2008 at 4:20 PM

“So you fully support the shelling and bombing of major population centers of the country?”

Madison

No more than you would support a full scale attack by Georgia on the local population centers in a surprise attack which left lots of civilians dead. The Russian attack came after the Georgian assault.

lexhamfox on August 12, 2008 at 4:45 PM

No more than you would support a full scale attack by Georgia on the local population centers in a surprise attack which left lots of civilians dead. The Russian attack came after the Georgian assault.

lexhamfox on August 12, 2008 at 4:45 PM

So no one from South Ossetia, which is a part of Georgia, attacked Georgia first?

Johan Klaus on August 12, 2008 at 4:52 PM

And we ignore the fact that the “peacekeepers” in South Ossetia were Russian Army. Since when has it ever been a good idea for one of the beligerants to be allowed to be self-declared peacekeepers? And what were these “peacekeepers” doing? Arming and training South Ossetians, South Ossetians who were given Russian passports and identity documents. So, are they Russians or South Ossetians?

coldwarrior on August 12, 2008 at 4:55 PM

South Ossetia had been laying roadside LEDs and attacking Georgian troops beforehand. Georgia was reacting to aggression.

Now tell me, was it worth it?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 4:58 PM

Gah…I meant IEDs.

I’m friggin’ tired.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 4:58 PM

TexasDan on August 12, 2008 at 1:18 PM

I would question anything in which Soros is involved.

Johan Klaus on August 12, 2008 at 5:32 PM

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