The Pause That Deposes
posted at 8:05 am on August 12, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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A number of reports have the Russians halting their military advance in Georgia, supposedly to negotiate a peaceful end to the conflict in the Caucasus. However, the Russians have something very different in mind. Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov refused to negotiate with Georgia’s elected government, saying publicly that Mikheil Saakashvili “has to go”, while President Dmitri Medvedev ordered his troops to “crush” any remaining Georgian resistance.
If that sounds like peace, it’s the peace of the graveyard:
Medvedev ordered the military to quell any signs of Georgian resistance.
“If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them,” he told his defense minister at a Kremlin meeting.
Russia’s foreign minister, meanwhile, said that Georgia’s president must leave office and Georgian troops should stay out of the pro-Russian South Ossetia region for good.
Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Moscow won’t talk to President Mikhail Saakashvili and Saakashvili “better go.”
The game plan has been revealed, for those who still hadn’t realized Russia’s larger plan. Putin doesn’t want Western-friendly governments in the former Soviet republics; he wants puppet governments answerable to Moscow. He supported the separatists in the Caucasus in order to deliberately provoke a incident he could exploit to depose the freely-elected government in Tbilisi and impose Russian rule through a proxy government imposed by force.
The demand for Saakashvili to resign should offend every free nation on Earth. Saakashvili represents Georgia, not the newly-birthed Russian Empire, and Moscow has no right to demand that a freely-elected president resign under force of arms. Free nations should also look toward Ukraine and recognize the next victim on Putin’s list.
For those who call this a peace, it is no such thing. The Russians have their boot on Georgia’s throat, and have only paused to get a surrender. (via Mark Impomeni)
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“Kill moose and squirrel.”
Boris Badunov
whitetop on August 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM
libertarian? how about Ayn Rand’s take on Soveriegnty of nations…
jp on August 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM
I, for one, am offended. You have made a generalization about one of my ideological allies based solely on one post. You don’t know anything about him. How dare you!
We can whine, too, you know. But it doesn’t get us anywhere.
emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM
You hold yourself to a lower standard than you do others. That is contrary to your screen name.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM
It’s the same on the surface, Thacker, but it also much different. I’m going to ‘plagarize’ here because I don’t remember who said it, but the guy who pushes an old lady in front of a bus and the next guy who pushes the old lady out of the way of the bus, did both “push the old lady”.
That is what you are arguing by saying what they do and what we do isn’t much different. Ed did the same thing in his ‘Yugoslavia precedent’ post yesterday. And we do something similar when we reduce the argument to merely East vs West.
Our, meanng the US, actions have been a considered application of the “separate vs joined” question and we’ve always favored the joined. Our country is founded on freedom joined, not separated, until such time as that freedom cannot be attained joined. My argument against Kosovo being a precendent is based on deciding whether Kosovo could ever remained joined with Serbia after long consideration and waiting, just as it was in the other cases involving the old Yugoslavia.
Is this indeed true for Abkhazia and South Ossetia wrt Georgia? I’ve never seen a hint it couldn’t be, just as I’ve noticed this question has been resolved in the affirmative, with Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and the Ukraine where the Russian populations are large. Free, with equality under the law is not a West preference, it is a natural preference that the West has adopted and supports throughout the world.
We work very hard to support this preference for joined rather than separated in such places as Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, in spite of the last one showing all evidence that this cannot be done in a satisfactory timeframe such that the suffering should continue to be endured. Thus, we are not reflexively “for” separation.
To not distinguish between the East’s and the West’s underlying positions in this argument is nothing more than multucultralist “I’m okay, you’re okay” claptrap. No one should fall for the Russia’s employment of it.
I agree with you here as in acknowledging which system does the most to protect our fundamental rights.
Dusty on August 12, 2008 at 9:44 AM
Germany it’s possible. However the bases that we have there have proven usefull in fighting the war on terror.
S. Korea. Are you utterly delusional? Do you honestly believe that N. Korea is not a problem?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:46 AM
You must have taken “How to set up straw men and be obvious at it” in law school.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:46 AM
fossten,
Please point to the post where I demanded perfection of anybody?
If you can’t, then can I presume that you are getting ever more desperate to distract others from your continued failure to present a cogent argument on any topic?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:48 AM
Again with the ad hominem.
No, I don’t think they’re a threat.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:49 AM
You can presume whatever you want; however, I have answered all of your silly straw man questions, and as yet you have not made one single argument on topic.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:50 AM
This is classic, considering that the post I was responding too was nothing more than a strawman in itself.
fossten, you are embarassing yourself again.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:51 AM
If you don’t think that N. Korea is a threat, then you have proven that you are delusional, which proves that I have not been engaging in ad hominems. Just telling a truth which you have trouble dealing with.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:52 AM
Must be nice to be able to sit back, criticize people and never put forward a cognizant argument of your own.
Dawnsblood on August 12, 2008 at 9:53 AM
Since you are clearly not referring to the ad hominem fallacy (if you are, you have no idea what you’re talking about), why not just say “insult” and look less like a pompous dick? Look mom, I spoke LATIN! Me so smart!
Darth Executor on August 12, 2008 at 9:54 AM
He was positing reasons for his opponents’ failure to engage in honest debate. He was not saying that their arguments are false because they made them, he was describing what his opponents were doing, no different than your calling his arguments ad hominem.
A true ad hominem would be, for instance, a defense attorney claiming that the victim could not have been raped because she is a prostitute.
I didn’t notice that he was calling Thacker Whacker though, so I’ll give you that one.
Akzed on August 12, 2008 at 9:54 AM
Maybe Georgia and Iraq are some of the new 57 states Obama mentioned that I wasn’t aware of.
trs on August 12, 2008 at 9:55 AM
So they’re lacking on lights, which makes their nuclear capabilities that they have shared with the likes of Syria completely harmless.
Good god, you’re mind-boggling.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 9:55 AM
Classic response from Mr. F-Bomb himself.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:56 AM
I’m not saying they’re harmless, I’m just saying I don’t believe they can overwhelm South Korea, which has more than 10 times the economy.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:58 AM
http://www.slate.com/id/2191588/entry/2191589/
If you haven’t seen this Slate article on the area from a few months ago, you should check it out.
It provides a little background on the area that you won’t get from wire reports.
Asher on August 12, 2008 at 9:58 AM
Economies are mincemeat if infrastructure is destroyed, and North Korea has that ability, albeit likely at the cost of most of their arsenal.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 9:59 AM
My mistake. That should have been response to this post:
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:00 AM
They’ve also already demonstrated a willingness to back down from China regarding nukes. Maybe they did for real, maybe they didn’t. But if they have nukes, what’s 50,000 extra US troops going to do if they want to start something?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:02 AM
Must be read.
emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 10:03 AM
Do you really believe NK will nuke SK the moment we pull out?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:04 AM
Speaking of resorting to strawmen.
Where did I say that this was limited to the nuclear threat?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:12 AM
Utter rubbish. Every word of it.
reaganaut on August 12, 2008 at 10:19 AM
Are you delusional? How can NK conquer SK without nukes? Have you not noticed that they cannot even feed themselves?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:21 AM
By that standard Saddam was essentially a government of one with a supporting cast that merely implemented his desires. WooHoo! Let freedom ring!
My point was simply that we’re different in that we no longer (hopefully permanently) depose fairly-elected regimes and replace them with US-friendly puppets. I’m guessing we’re going to find that the elected Iraqi government isn’t always going to act with US interests as a first priority.
tbradshaw on August 12, 2008 at 10:22 AM
Nice dodge. Do you actually think NK will attack SK as soon as we pull out?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:23 AM
More strawmen from the master of straw.
Why does it have to be “as soon as we pull out”?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Fixed it for you.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Why else would you consider NK a threat?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:25 AM
The master of straw goes for the gold.
Why does it have to be conquer? Do you honestly believe that N. Korea is incapable of doing harm, or threatening to do harm, without completely conquering S. Korea?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:25 AM
I still notice that fossten, despite dozens of requests for clarification, has yet to answer any of the questions put to him by me or others.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:26 AM
I love the way fossten is utterly convinced he knows exactly what other people are thinking. The heck with bothering to read what they say, and watch what they do.
Just check with fossten, and he’ll give you the real scoop.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:28 AM
So unless they are going to attack tomorrow, they aren’t a threat?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:28 AM
It would be fruitless if we had a country for whose liberation we fought a war, and sat on our hands while thugs were elected. Like Jeane Kirkpatrick said, the rhetoric of freedom and capitalism is often less intriguingly communicated than the message of socialism. I am in favor of opposing and, when necessary, toppling governments hostile to my own country, even if they’re “freely elected.” It’s called patriotism.
emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 10:29 AM
Please prove your assertion by use of quotes. I’ve answered all your silly questions. You have yet to answer any of mine.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:29 AM
Do you believe South Korea needs the US to protect it from North Korea, and why?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:30 AM
Tu quoque.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:33 AM
Let me be more clear.
tbradshaw on August 12, 2008 at 10:34 AM
You may be right, but will we then treat him as we’re treating Pakistan’s leader?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:36 AM
Stop answering every question with a question. It’s annoying as hell and cheaper still.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Here’s the real question:
do you really think Putin’s done? Do you really think Georgia is that only part of “living space” that Putin wants?
Make no mistake: Putin and his little buds are watching the world shrug and planning their next move. Because the world’s so apathetic, there will be one more former Soviet province swallowed up after another.
mjk on August 12, 2008 at 10:40 AM
For the umpteenth time, what is good in dealing with Mexico is not necessarily what’s good in dealing with South Africa. Not all governments are the same, and they should not be treated as if they were. Otherwise we’d be treating Italy like Iran and spitting on the concept of liberty.
emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 10:41 AM
Who the hell knows.
tbradshaw on August 12, 2008 at 10:43 AM
You really ought to be directing your anger at MarktheGreat. It’s all he’s been doing this entire thread. Interesting that when I do it, you get mad.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:50 AM
tbradshaw,
DO you know of any country that always acts with the US interests as their first thoughts?
Heck, I wish the US would act with our own interests as their first thoughts more often.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:52 AM
He really is that blind.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:53 AM
If you managed to do it without being the first to cry “ad hominem”, it wouldn’t be as annoying.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 10:53 AM
Yes,
Because N. Korea is a threat.
Because S. Korea is a valued ally.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Agreed, especially since the US has lost its balls (except when dealing with smaller countries that we’re not afraid of).
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:55 AM
I love the way he complains about strawmen, while using strawmen.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:55 AM
If you managed to read the entire thread, you wouldn’t be whining yourself.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:56 AM
I love the way he uses strawmen, then denies he does it, then accuses others of using strawmen when they do exactly what he does.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:57 AM
HEre we go with your standard, unless we are willing to attack everyone, at the same time, we shouldn’t attack anyone line of un-thinking.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:57 AM
Nope. Never did that. Ad hominem isn’t the same as answering questions with questions. You’re mixing your accusations.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:57 AM
When did I ever deny that I used strawmen?
I have used them several times to demonstrate to you the futility of using strawmen.
Unfortunately you mental faculties weren’t up to the challenge of detecting the subtle use of sarcasm.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:58 AM
You’ve never used ad hominem? Man, your memory is as weak as your brain power.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Here you go with your strawman again, mischaracterizing my statements. I never said we should attack anyone.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:58 AM
You can’t read. Obviously. Don’t be so quick to hit “submit.” Try reading for comprehension first.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 10:59 AM
So, should we attack Russia then, since Georgia is an ally? Or do we have no interest there?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:04 AM
So you believe that it’s not an insult when you do it?
Just like it’s not a strawman when you do it?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 11:05 AM
You must have an inferiority complex.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:06 AM
And to think, you actually have the gall to accuse others of having problems with reading comprehension.
You have asked, multiple times, when the tanks are going to roll on Moscow.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 11:06 AM
This coming from the guy, who just a few posts ago, claimed to never use ad hominems.
He also spends a lot of time complaining about posts that are nothing but heat, with no intellectual content. (Not that any of his have ever had any intellectual content.)
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 11:08 AM
Really.
And you have continued to cry about it. Try “This is not the ad hominem I thought I knew”.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 11:09 AM
No, I never said that. NEVER. QFT please. I did say, according to someone’s LOGIC. Not the same thing as asserting that we should attack someone.
You are truly self delusional.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:09 AM
You are particularly sensitive about ad hominems. Despite the fact that it’s a poor argument tactic, you defend this behavior?
This is not the MadisonConservative I thought I knew.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Again with the reading comprehension problems.
MadisonConservative never defended this tactic, he just pointed out that while you were decrying it, you were also engaging in it.
Though I’m not surprised that you have trouble understanding the difference.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 11:11 AM
fossten,
Not only are you pathetic, you are also a liar.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 11:13 AM
Again with the hypocrisy. It’s okay for you to use ad hominem and strawmen, but it’s not okay for me to do so. Then, it’s okay for you to use them to illustrate that I’m using them, but it’s not okay for me to do the same thing.
You really are a complete and utter idiot.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:14 AM
WITH. THAT. LOGIC.
You’re utterly, incompetently, immeasurably, stupid. Obviously.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Here, MarkTheHypocrite, since you have trouble comprehending what you obviously don’t read, I’ll make it easy for you.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Well, of course not. My point is simply that the US prefers to support free elections (even when the results may not be to our liking) versus install friendly puppets.
Full agreement with point #2.
tbradshaw on August 12, 2008 at 11:23 AM
I never defended it. Please feel free to show where I did.
What I did do is point out that crying about ad hominem attacks is no less a poor argument tactic than using ad hominem attacks.
In other words, quit crying, quit responding, or quit posting altogether.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Russia knows what it wants, just like the jihadis.
Can the West stand up to this?
PattyJ on August 12, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Ah, so we’ve moved from hypocrisy to mischaracterization to chilling speech, eh? Well, you boys have to stick together, I’ll give you that.
And by the way, there is a difference between opening your first comment with an ad hominem without provocation, as MarkTheHypocrite did, and engaging in ad hominem after a long conversation where abuse and provocation occurred.
And your use of the word “crying” to describe something in print is ludicrous, and denotes a heavy bias and lack of understanding. To wit, any time someone criticizes a logical flaw, they are “crying?” That’s hilarious. How old are you, twelve? Name calling is a long-recognized immature tactic, especially when used unprovoked. And your tacit endorsement of it in one case while decrying it in another is hyocritical. But your attack on someone who criticizes it is incompetent.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:36 AM
NO
that would take far more guts than we currently have.
right4life on August 12, 2008 at 11:37 AM
fossten, you should learn to quite while you are behind.
I never said that you couldn’t use these debate techniques, I was ridiculing you because you complained about others using them, while you were using them yourself.
I will understand if you want to continue to pretend that you don’t know the difference.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 11:37 AM
you could also learn to quit, not that it would make any difference.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 11:39 AM
MadisonConservative, and Akzed if you are still out there.
There’s an old saying about wrestling with a pig.
You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
fossten is quite clearly a lost cause, I suspect his only purpose here is to distract us. He has yet to do anything other than complain that others don’t measure up to his vaunted levels, while not measuring up to them himself.
While continuing to bash him may be good fun, I suspect that most of us have better things to do with our time.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 11:43 AM
In case you’re not aware, there isn’t a post count in this blog. So you don’t have to worry that I might have more posts than you. But you can have the last word, since that’s obviously more important to you than having a decent discussion. So much for “I’m going to drop out of this love fest…” LOL
Here, I’ll leave you room to have the last word. Wouldn’t want you to go crying to mommy.
.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:43 AM
I’ve heard this one before.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:45 AM
^^^ Nearly 2 hours later, you still don’t have anything better to do with your time??? LOL
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:46 AM
That should be nearly 3 hours later.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Didn’t I say quit crying? I thought I did. Will a tissue help?
By the way, explain the logic in calling me a child (”How old are you, twelve?”) and then in the next sentence complaining about name calling?
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 11:47 AM
There is only a thin line that separates tyrants, whether it’s Socialism, Communism, Theocracies, or Kingship. They all can’t stand freedom of choice of a society full of individuals. Thank our founder fathers and god for our Bill of Rights. America would not be as she is without them.
Egfrow on August 12, 2008 at 11:48 AM
Russia is nothing more than a Mafia organization with it’s own country.
Egfrow on August 12, 2008 at 11:49 AM
wow all the disscussion on debate styles…
theres more critisizm of peoples methods of posting than about world politcs…
so here my postulation.
Is “Fossten” the D*ck sucking kinda troll or the C*ck sucking kind?
I have to agree with Darth here Screw you buddy you just like to see yourself type. and you like to see people getting pissed off at what you type more.
So smart or dumb yer still a Dick. (and that’s no straw man)
Alhough the ad hominem might be a bit strong.
-Wasteland Man.
P.S. I say we nuke russia from orbit its the only way to be sure. *waits for flames of grammer and spelling and strawmen complaints while rolling eyes
WastelandMan on August 12, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Brilliant argument. I have yet to see you make one post that’s on topic. Sorta crabby today, aren’t you? I keep forgetting that some of us don’t have wives at home that love us the night before. Sorry, man. I imagine five fingered Mary gets old after a while. Well, look at it this way, Christmas is coming up, I’m sure you’ll get some.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:56 AM
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 11:58 AM
Several months before the end of the war, General Patton had recognized the fearful danger to the West posed by the Soviet Union, and he had disagreed bitterly with the orders which he had been given to hold back his army and wait for the Red Army to occupy vast stretches of German, Czech, Rumanian, Hungarian, and Yugoslav territory, which the Americans could have easily taken instead.
Patton: “I understand the situation. Their (the Soviet) supply system is inadequate to maintain them in a serious action such as I could put to them. They have chickens in the coop and cattle on the hoof — that’s their supply system. They could probably maintain themselves in the type of fighting I could give them for five days. After that it would make no difference how many million men they have, and if you wanted Moscow I could give it to you. They lived on the land coming down. There is insufficient left for them to maintain themselves going back. Let’s not give them time to build up their supplies. If we do, then . . . we have had a victory over the Germans and disarmed them, but we have failed in the liberation of Europe; we have lost the war!”
Nevertheless, Patton knew that the Americans could whip the Reds then — but perhaps not later. On May 18 he noted in his diary: “In my opinion, the American Army as it now exists could beat the Russians with the greatest of ease, because, while the Russians have good infantry, they are lacking in artillery, air, tanks, and in the knowledge of the use of the combined arms, whereas we excel in all three of these. If it should be necessary to right the Russians, the sooner we do it the better.”
- This article originally appeared in Issue Number 53 of National Vanguard Tabloid in 1977.
Where have you gone, George S. Patton?
Georgians turn their longing eyes to you
(Woo woo woo)
What’s that you say, Tsar Valdimir Putin
‘Mr Blood and Guts’ history has driven far away?
(Hey hey hey – hey hey hey)
MB4 on August 12, 2008 at 12:02 PM
LOLZ…
at least I can see humor in that.
and it makes you no less a dick ;-)
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 12, 2008 at 12:03 PM
Well?
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:08 PM
also I like how the link from yer screen name goes to a “friend finder” website I can see how you’d be lonely….
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on August 12, 2008 at 12:08 PM
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