The Pause That Deposes
posted at 8:05 am on August 12, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
A number of reports have the Russians halting their military advance in Georgia, supposedly to negotiate a peaceful end to the conflict in the Caucasus. However, the Russians have something very different in mind. Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov refused to negotiate with Georgia’s elected government, saying publicly that Mikheil Saakashvili “has to go”, while President Dmitri Medvedev ordered his troops to “crush” any remaining Georgian resistance.
If that sounds like peace, it’s the peace of the graveyard:
Medvedev ordered the military to quell any signs of Georgian resistance.
“If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them,” he told his defense minister at a Kremlin meeting.
Russia’s foreign minister, meanwhile, said that Georgia’s president must leave office and Georgian troops should stay out of the pro-Russian South Ossetia region for good.
Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Moscow won’t talk to President Mikhail Saakashvili and Saakashvili “better go.”
The game plan has been revealed, for those who still hadn’t realized Russia’s larger plan. Putin doesn’t want Western-friendly governments in the former Soviet republics; he wants puppet governments answerable to Moscow. He supported the separatists in the Caucasus in order to deliberately provoke a incident he could exploit to depose the freely-elected government in Tbilisi and impose Russian rule through a proxy government imposed by force.
The demand for Saakashvili to resign should offend every free nation on Earth. Saakashvili represents Georgia, not the newly-birthed Russian Empire, and Moscow has no right to demand that a freely-elected president resign under force of arms. Free nations should also look toward Ukraine and recognize the next victim on Putin’s list.
For those who call this a peace, it is no such thing. The Russians have their boot on Georgia’s throat, and have only paused to get a surrender. (via Mark Impomeni)
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It’s been obvious for years that Putin’s goal is the recreation of the Soviet empire.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 8:08 AM
I’m sure the UN will applaud Russia’s restraint.
boomer on August 12, 2008 at 8:11 AM
And what about North Ossetia? Will Russia allow the them to reunite with their brethen to the South and form the free state of Ossetia?
rbb on August 12, 2008 at 8:12 AM
watch the feckless obama release a statement applauding the cessation of hostilities but not mention the occupation of Georgia by Russian armor nor say anything about the two unacceptable Russian conditions.
elduende on August 12, 2008 at 8:17 AM
Others have referred to the Soviet empire. There was a Russian empire long before it. In many respects, especially in regard to neighbors, it’s a distinction without a difference. IMHO, Putin does not appear to be recreating the soviet empire per se.
JiangxiDad on August 12, 2008 at 8:17 AM
Yup, pretty much the same impression I had when I read those lines about crushing the “resistance” and calling for Saakashvili to step down.
flipflop on August 12, 2008 at 8:18 AM
Actually Ossetians love being Russia’s bitch. They probably wouldn’t have a problem with Russia absorbing South Ossetia.
Darth Executor on August 12, 2008 at 8:21 AM
no one has been crushed flipflop the Georgian army is still viable and there are reports by the Beeb that they are entrenching around Tblisi and further back behind the capital.
elduende on August 12, 2008 at 8:22 AM
Putin doesn’t play games…politics and liberals don’t get in his way. Russia has clearly made a statement here…
Karmi on August 12, 2008 at 8:23 AM
They can afford to stop for the moment – they got one of the main goals right off the bat. Once they expanded the war beyond South Ossetia and smashed much of the Georgian military, Georgia has no hope of holding on to Abkhazia, which grants Russia de facto control of that section of the Black Sea coast.
E1701 on August 12, 2008 at 8:23 AM
Krauthammer called this right up to the puppet government being put in place.
RussiaThe Soviet Union is on the march once again. Instead of just manning Iraqi AA for Saddam, supplying materials for Iran to go nuclear, or weapons to terrorists, it seems that they want to get some blood on their hands again like the old days. Who better to abuse than your own neighbors for a warm up?This makes Maverick as president even more pressing. I wonder if they did this just to support the Republicans?
Hening on August 12, 2008 at 8:23 AM
Well,Putin is old school KGB,and the
world now knows not to trust the Ruskies,
again!
Until the world acts,it’ll be a green light
for Putin!
canopfor on August 12, 2008 at 8:30 AM
There is no mask. There never was.
BohicaTwentyTwo on August 12, 2008 at 8:30 AM
Don’t worry. Any second now, MoveOn, ANSWER and Win Without War, among others, will be marching on the Russian Embassy in Washington. There will be similar protests in several European capitals, calling for Russia to “end the war”. All of these will be calling this war unjustified because it is “unilateral”, and because Georgia did not attack Russia. (They only attacked South Ossetia, which is not part of Russia.) They will demand that Russia withdraw, and settle their differences with Georgia through negotiation. Russia, being a good world citizen, unlike the USA (led by that “cowboy”, George W. Bush), will comply.
And if you believe any of the above, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you, along with some oceanside property in Arizona.
Bigfoot on August 12, 2008 at 8:31 AM
A fascinating bit of history and geography from the Jerusalem Post. The borders of some Eastern European countries were artificially drawn, just like the ones the Europeans drew to carve up Africa:
Wethal on August 12, 2008 at 8:32 AM
How is this action any different than what America does? We don’t like a government, we work to ‘depose’ the government and work for ‘regime change’. Isn’t that what we did to Sadam Hussein? Isn’t that what we do all over the world?
We want ‘pro-western’ governments. That’s why we support Georgia now because they have a puppet government of the US (after all they did have military in Iraq on our side).
Don’t get me wrong. I know what Russia did was bad. But I don’t see how it is that much different than what we do other than they were ruthless in their mission. . . which is what I wish America would be instead of playing footsie trying to ‘win hearts and minds’.
Russia fought a war. . . they did the same thing that Israel did against Lebanon (crossed the border into the region where the enemy was to root them out). We think that everyone should do like we do and handcuff themselves with an artificial border when they put their troops at risk.
Ossetia is a disputed region. . . just like Kashmir. Funny how I haven’t ever heard a peep from any of you ‘outraged’ commentors concerning what Pakistan does in Kashmir. They have been doing it for 20 years.
It’s just hatred for everything Russia born out of the cold war. Russia should have become our greatest ally. We could have ended the threat of Islamic extremism together. Instead, we wanted them to burn after the fall of the Soviet Union. Now they have oil revenue, and they remember the good ole USA doing ZERO to help them when they had to pay their teachers in Vodka because they had no money.
I don’t blame Putin or Russia one iota for how they do. It’s obvious that Americans expect the rest of the world to fight footsie like we do. We will be in for a rude awakening if we ever get attacked by China or Russia on our home land. It’s been a long time since our continent has seen a real war. I don’t know that America could survive a war on our soil. . . and I think most of the world realizes that.
ThackerAgency on August 12, 2008 at 8:32 AM
Not that the geographical mess justifies Russia invading Georgia itself.
Wethal on August 12, 2008 at 8:33 AM
Nothing has changed. Time to bleed the Russians. EFP time. Its Pay back time; lets get some russian armor for the Kornets they gave the Fedayeen. Send in the javelins!
elduende on August 12, 2008 at 8:35 AM
Recreate the Soviet Empire, realizing that the dream of a communist utopia did not die, it just ran out of money. This time, we will use oil to fund the Soviet Empire.
BHO wants to show how to convert USA freedoms and liberty to communist funding, just ask him how.
tarpon on August 12, 2008 at 8:36 AM
From the NYTs:
Paging 301 foreign policy advisors….please contact your “fearless leader” for further clarification.
Rovin on August 12, 2008 at 8:38 AM
And, by the way, it isn’t ‘democracy’ that makes us free. . . it is CAPITALISM. If you elect the guys who can throw you in jail and take your money, it doesn’t make you any more free than if you suffer from someone who won the authority from military.
The USSR failed because of Communism and Socialism. The USA is becoming more socialist and communist by the day even though we elect our government. Democracy doesn’t mean freedom. . . Capitalism does. Until people (the US government) recognize that, America won’t be truly free.
The elected lawmakers are saying we need to ‘nationalize oil’ just like Russia. That strips freedom even though they were ‘elected’. George Washington didn’t want the power – that’s what made him great. Now everyone in Washington only has one goal. . . to vote themselves more power.
ThackerAgency on August 12, 2008 at 8:38 AM
The Russian bear rises again and swats an outlying democracy that used to be part of the Soviet Union. It now demands its President step down so PM Putin can install a proxy, (puppet)
2theright on August 12, 2008 at 8:38 AM
Send in the javelins!
elduende on Aug 12,2008 at 8:35AM.
elduende: Besides the javelins,its time to stop pussy
footing around,and start paratrooping killer
rabbits,and then sit back and watch the carnage!
Haha.:)
canopfor on August 12, 2008 at 8:41 AM
Whacker,
So you honestly see no difference between the Republic of Georgia, pre-invasion, and Iraq under Sadam?
Man, you have been hitting the kool-aid, haven’t you.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 8:42 AM
Unfortunately, I see the logic in your argument.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 8:42 AM
Whacker,
Do you believe that any govt that is pro-US, is in reality a puppet of the US?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 8:43 AM
Aside from the American illegal immigration problem, I have long thought Bush’s greatest error is his good opinion of Putin. In fact, I think that Bush’s faults in a nutshell is that he is just too nice of a guy. This whole Georgia thing is bad, bad and we should have put our foot down at the get-go. Georgia sent 2,000 troops to Iraq to help our efforts there and we can’t defend them from tyranny at their back door and an invasion from an old bully who’s resuming former aggressions? Putin is old school U.S.S.R. and wants the former Empire put back together. I saw the writing on the wall years ago and that shocks me. If a little housewife in Florida predicted Putin’s intentions, why can’t our government? Or, did our government know what was coming, but was too chicken to nip it in the bud?
Mrs. Happy Housewife on August 12, 2008 at 8:44 AM
fossten,
The logic in those arguments only exist if you believe that the equivalencies Whacker draws are in fact valid.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 8:44 AM
Ad hominem and appeal to ridicule invalidate your credibility. Are you going to make an argument, or are the insults going to fly early today? Are we to assume you must not have gotten any last night?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 8:44 AM
I hear the Ruskies are cyber attacking
Georgia’s government computer systems!
canopfor on August 12, 2008 at 8:45 AM
That’s a straw man. Try to stay specific, won’t you?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 8:45 AM
- The Cat
MirCat on August 12, 2008 at 8:45 AM
Wow, that was your least coherent post ever. Way to go!
Akzed on August 12, 2008 at 8:47 AM
That was brilliant, turning the tables on yourself like that.
Akzed on August 12, 2008 at 8:50 AM
fox just showed gori and it aint no ceasefire there…
trailortrash on August 12, 2008 at 8:52 AM
canopfor on August 12, 2008 at 8:41 AM
Indeed. I think the Bear has walked into a trap. The Georgians are going to bleed the Russians bad.
elduende on August 12, 2008 at 8:52 AM
fossten,
Nice attempt to avoid argument while trying to convince yourself of your own intellectual superiority.
Care to try again, this time actually saying something of merit?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 8:55 AM
Evidently you are unfamiliar with the term, “using absurdity to illustrate the absurd.”
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 8:55 AM
Care to actually make an argument, or are you only trolling today?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 8:56 AM
This whole issue kind of deflates the one world balloon, huh?
MNDavenotPC on August 12, 2008 at 8:56 AM
I’ve had similar thoughts over the past couple of days.
JiangxiDad on August 12, 2008 at 8:56 AM
Whether or not Akzed knows the phrase, it’s quite obvious you don’t.
Or are you just demonstrating your ability to do hypocrisy?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 8:56 AM
Looking at your screen name, I am swept away by the irony of your statement.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 8:57 AM
Still no actual argument. Yawn. The internet warrior at its finest.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 8:57 AM
I did make an argument. I asked a perfectly valid question.
You are the one trying to avoid answering.
I love the way you repeatedly use the same techniques on me, that you claim invalidate my point when used by me.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 8:58 AM
Indeed.
elduende on Aug 12,2008 at 8:52AM.
elduende: Lets hope so,it sure would be nice,
if a EMP device accidently went of,
in a payback for Russia’s cyber attacks
on Georgias government computers!
canopfor on August 12, 2008 at 8:59 AM
I love the way fossten ignores what he can’t answer.
I’m dropping out of this particular love fest, it’s obvious that fossten has no intention of saying or doing anything other than complain that I’m not nice enough to him.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 8:59 AM
I don’t have to answer a question that wasn’t posed to me. I simply identified your small, lazy tactics. The fact that you asked a question isn’t an argument.
Why don’t you just tell us why you think TA is wrong? That would be an argument.
Or are you just having too much fun trolling?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:00 AM
Putin’s military ambitions are funded by oil money. Oil has been dropping. Drill here, drill now, and the price of oil will keep dropping. De-fund totalitarianism.
Wethal on August 12, 2008 at 9:00 AM
there are also over 1000 US troops helping the Georgians apart from the 130+ Green Berets.
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=56704
elduende on August 12, 2008 at 9:00 AM
Typical. So you were trolling, as I thought.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:00 AM
USSR II
davidk on August 12, 2008 at 9:01 AM
Pointing out a weakness in someone else’s argument by way of asking a question is a perfectly valid form of argument.
There’s an old saying in the legal profession, when the facts aren’t on your side, argue the law.
Which you are doing.
When the law isn’t on your side, attack your opponent.
Which you are doing.
Say, are you a lawyer?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:02 AM
It is amazing that Russia and China made a statement they are the new super powers at approximately the same time. Russia with its invasion of Georgia and China with its unbelievable opening ceremony have assumed their roles on the world stage. Since the United States will never be united (because of the anti-American stance by the dims) suggests that our role as super eunuch will be a difficult pill to swallow.
A great civilization is not conquered from without until it destroys itself from within~~Ariel Durant
volsense on August 12, 2008 at 9:04 AM
“siloviki”
A term most in the West have never heard of.
It refers to the four out of five Russian government officials in office today, in Moscow, in all the major cities, in all the autonomous areas, quasi-republics, and occupied lands, in all the industries, four out of five officials who were or are presently members of the KGB or the FSB. Putin has spent the years since he replaced Yeltsin maneuvering political appointees, stacking ballots, or otherwise inserting former KGB officers or present-day FSB and other intel officers into the leadership of Russia.
The present-Ossetian “government” is almost entirely run by these “siloviki.” Additionally, most of the major “capitalists” in Moscow either are former KGB, or have established approved cooperation with siloviki and are able to enjoy the fruits of robbing the Russian people of their national wealth, all with the consent of Putin.
And yet, all of this is ignored as part of a larger picture by the West.
No, we can’t fight them in the conventional sense, but we can and should fight them on the economic front, the only real weakness they have.
Yes, Medvedev ordered the Russians to stop fighting…with plenty of caveats, but Medvedev is part of this siloviki clique himself. He is answerable to Putin. He owes his presidency to Putin. It is Putin calling the shots. Putin wishes to return Russia to its former glory on par with the former Soviet Union. He has the belief that new-Russia [Gorbachev and Yeltsin and those who supported them]sold out Russia [and the Soviet Union] to the West. He is intent on recreating if not an imperial Russia, at the very least a “soviet union” for the 21st century. Georgia is not his first step. It is not his last step. If a former republic, now independent, or trying to become independent, refuses to allow siloviki to “manage their “new” governments, they will face the same Georgia is now experiencing…hence the calls that Saakashvili “better go.”
Maybe Lenin was right after all. Maybe we will sell Russia the rope for them to hang us all.
Hope-y Change-y world…welcome to reality.
coldwarrior on August 12, 2008 at 9:05 AM
Oh, you’re back? I thought you were dropping out of this love fest.
So, since you’re so Great, why don’t you explain your position to the rest of us who aren’t as Great as you.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:06 AM
Except when you use flawed arguments to do so. Then you hoist yourself with your own petard.
Which you did.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:07 AM
Well, to break down why it isn’t the same as what we do, I’m reminded of that “quod licet Jovis non licet bovis” phrase; what’s allowed Jove is not allowed a cow. When the US intervenes it is in the interests of democracy and freedom; when Russia does anything, nowadays, it’s quite the opposite. So no, they’re not the same thing, unless we’re going to say, to steal a bit from WFB, that people who push old ladies into the way of buses are the same as people who push old ladies out of the way of buses.
emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 9:09 AM
The Russians would argue that they are fighting for the freedom of South Ossetia. Just saying.
And we didn’t attack Iraq so we could make it a democracy. We went in there to find the WMDs. We believed Iraq threatened us.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:11 AM
Oh, the problems of learning international relations from sound bites and slogans.
coldwarrior on August 12, 2008 at 9:13 AM
Elections are the big difference. Saddam never put his leadership through one and Putin most certainly would not allow one in Russian-controlled Georgia. We also let the Iraqis hold their own after deposing Saddam.
tbradshaw on August 12, 2008 at 9:14 AM
Evidently you are unfamiliar with reductio ad absurdum.
Akzed on August 12, 2008 at 9:15 AM
fossten,
So you and Whacker honestly believe that there is no difference between the US and Russia?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:16 AM
Elections don’t matter as much as the size of government when it comes to personal freedom. The new Iraqi government isn’t any smaller, proportionately, than our own government is.
Democracy doesn’t equal more freedom. Smaller government does.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:16 AM
tbradshaw,
In addition, Putin would never permit full and fair elections in Russia either.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:16 AM
fossten,
So you believe that the current Iraqi govt is no improvement over the previous one?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:17 AM
I don’t believe that. I can’t answer for ThackerAgency.
And your continued use of ad hominems is getting tiresome. Why don’t you make your point and go away.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:17 AM
The United States deposed a threatening dictatorship and held elections. Russia seeks to destroy a democracy and install a puppet government. And the US would like nothing better than to get the heck out of Iraq…Russia is entering an new expansive phase.
It’s completely different.
Asher on August 12, 2008 at 9:18 AM
I’m guessing that fossten and Thacker belong to that branch of libertarianism that divides the world into two categories.
Those that have attained their vision of perfection, and everyone else. Their religion requires them to believe that there are no variations within evil.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:19 AM
This is funny, considering it’s the only argumentative technique that you appear to know.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:19 AM
Well, saying you’re working in the interests of freedom is an entirely different thing than actually working in the interests of freedom.
We went in for more than WMDs, though. It was also rape rooms, gassing his own people, Hussein’s funding of suicide bombers/terrorists, and the fact that Iraq had long been a jihadist haven. All of which, I would say, add up to “invading for freedom.”
emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 9:19 AM
The US has bases all around the world. We’re not leaving anybody’s soil any time soon, if ever. Look how long we stayed in Germany, where there wasn’t any insurgent activity. Look at South Korea.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:20 AM
Stop drinking the liberal kool-aid. WMDs were ONE of the reasons why we went to Iraq. Getting rid of a brutal dictator that oppressed his own people has been a part of the Shrub’s rhetoric and one of the reasons for the invasion from the beginning.
Darth Executor on August 12, 2008 at 9:20 AM
That’s a nice spin, but it’s more hindsight than the “actual reasons” we went in.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:21 AM
With that logic, we should see US tanks and light infantry divisions in Moscow and Beijing within weeks, right?
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:21 AM
I detect no ad hominem argument in Mark’s posts. Please inform our ignorance by proving your accusation.
Akzed on August 12, 2008 at 9:22 AM
You are right about this. Ronald Reagan started the fall of the Russian Empire and then it finally fell when George H. W. Bush was president. At that time we should have stepped in and helped those people. But, Bush sat on his hands, promising no more new taxes.
After Jimmy Carter, Bush the Elder was not a very good president. He’s the guy who setup the moritourim on offshore drilling, too.
cjs1943 on August 12, 2008 at 9:22 AM
This is true, but a representative government that’s freely elected by the people is the framework. Basically you can plant the seeds and nurture the plant, but it has to grow on it’s own.
Asher on August 12, 2008 at 9:23 AM
Try again.
As well as:
emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 9:24 AM
Gladly.
Now google the definition of ad hominem.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:26 AM
This is incorrect. The foundation of freedom is smaller government FIRST, followed by a framework of democracy. That’s why the Bill of Rights HAD to be included before the Constitution was finished. Otherwise, they never would have been inserted.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:28 AM
Now, I understand you’re trying to be all cutesy and “libertariany” and to say that neocons are bloodthirsty. But believe it or not, we have a prudent foreign policy. We assess threats and act accordingly.
By the by, Ayn Rand said we could invade any country that trampled on human rights, because that country would have forfeited its right to exist without intervention, so there’s libertarian-justification for the Iraq War. But, as she and I both agree, she recognized that it’s probably not prudent to just start invading all menacing countries.
emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 9:30 AM
“But, as she and I both believe…”
emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 9:31 AM
I never used those words. If you’re going to insult someone, at least get their statement correct.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:33 AM
Akzed,
fossten is just desperate for an excuse to avoid answering the points you and I have raised.
It doesn’t matter how immaterial or irrelevant (or even invented out of whole cloth), this is the path that he has committed himself to.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:33 AM
Greetings Soviet tool.
We do it for good reasons. They do it for bad. Not that I expect someone as amoral as you are to understand the difference context makes.
Is Britain a “puppet government” too? Hilarious. Ally =/= “puppet government”. Learn the difference.
You don’t see the difference because you can’t tell the difference between good and evil.
No, they didn’t. Georgia wasn’t crossing into Russia and abducting Russian soldiers. Georgia was exerting the legal authority it has over THEIR OWN FUCKING PROVINCE.
So?
No, they shouldn’t have. They should have paid for the hideous crimes they commited against humanity.
Liberal pussies are the only reason why “Islamic extremism” is even a problem. Powering up the worst country in the world to help with a bunch of goat fuckers is insane.
Yes, it’s OK for them to be mad at the US for not helping them with cash after they murdered millions of people and annihilated the economies of East Europe and half of asia with their diseased ideology. Fuck you. Why are you so eager to help one monster (
Russiathe soviet union) yet adamant on destroying another (radical Islam)? Are you some sort of Hitchens-esque atheist who feels a certain, err, camaraderie with your fellow co-religionists?Of course you don’t. You’re their useful idiot and a sociopathic piece of trash.
You’re not at the daily kos. Nobody expects anybody else to fight like we do. What we do expect is for them to respect another country’s sovereignty and stop bombing civillains well after Georgia agreed to a cease-fire.
BS. The US, and even Canada isn’t Europe yet. Bush had a 90% approval rating after 9/11. If there’s an attack on US soil you’ll be amazed at how hawkish most of the country will suddenly become. Except maybe your comrades in Berekeley, but who cares about them.
Darth Executor on August 12, 2008 at 9:33 AM
fossten,
DO you honestly believe that the only reason we have troops in Germany and S. Korea is because we are determined to keep out puppet govts there in place?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:34 AM
Please explain how it’s “with that logic”, I’m getting the sadistic urge to watch an asylum patient drool all over himself.
Darth Executor on August 12, 2008 at 9:36 AM
Ah, the arguments get even more logical as the thread wears on.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:36 AM
It was implied. I don’t particularly think that “libertarian” is an insult, but a misnomer is a misnomer, so my apologies.
WRITE-IN CANDIDATE FOR 08′!
emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 9:37 AM
fosten and Thacker are two of the reason’s why libertarianism will never be more than a side not in American history. (And I say that as a small l libertarian, who used to be a dues paying member of the party.)
They would rather die, fighting for the whole loaf, than dirty their hands by compromising in order to get half a loaf.
They also view anyone who doesn’t agree with them on the importance of absolute purity as being no better than those who want to enslave others.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:37 AM
No. After 50+ years, I believe it’s just inertia.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:37 AM
fosten writes:
That’s not spin, that’s reality. The resolution justifying the invasion listed something like 21 or 23 reasons.
I can’t help it if you are only capable of remembering one of those reasons. Or if you have convinced yourself that you know what the leaders really wanted, despite what they were saying at the time.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:38 AM
Truely sad, once again fossten stoops to using techniques he condemns, when used against him.
So fossten, are you actually arguing that unless the US is willing to invade Moscow, right now, we should do nothing to help anyone?
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:40 AM
stuck in an airport yesterday, which had CNN on…of course Cafferty claimed the US could do nothing here and had nor moral swaying because we “invaded a sovereign nation ourselves 5 years ago”. idiot, absolute idiot
jp on August 12, 2008 at 9:40 AM
Perfect. You display your gross ignorance for the rest of the thread by forming massive conclusions based on a smidgeon of posts in one thread.
You know nothing about me, or anyone else for that matter. You haven’t presented one single argument yet, troll. And I see you can’t avoid getting the last word, despite your whiny statement that you were “dropping out of the love fest.”
If you’re a lawyer, that profession is a laughingstock.
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:40 AM
Thacker whines:
What other fairy tales do you believe in?
The idea that if only the US had been more perfect, then the rest of the world would have turned out perfect as well is the classic kool-aid of the liberals.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:41 AM
You’re actually too lazy to look up the correct number? LOL
fossten on August 12, 2008 at 9:41 AM
Some of us are intelligent enough to know that perfection is not always a requirement.
MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 9:42 AM
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