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Hey, you know who was right all along on Russia? John McCain

posted at 9:35 am on August 12, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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John McCain took a lot of criticism for his hard line on Vladimir Putin’s Russia over the last few years from end-of-history believers and other optimists in the punditry.  Now that McCain’s assessment of Russia has proven accurate, the New York Times recognizes that his long-held positions suddenly have a lot more credibility:

Mr. McCain has called for expelling what he has called a “revanchist Russia” from meetings of the Group of 8, the organization of leading industrialized nations. He urged President Bush — in vain — to boycott the group’s meeting in St. Petersburg in 2006. And he has often mocked the president’s assertion that he got a sense of the soul of Vladimir V. Putin, who was then Russia’s president and is now its prime minister, by looking into his eyes. “I looked into his eyes,” Mr. McCain said, “and saw three letters: a K, a G and a B.”

His hard line has been derided as provocative, and possibly dangerous, by some so-called realist foreign policy experts, who warn that isolating Russia would do little to encourage it to change. But others, including neoconservatives who deem promoting democracy a paramount goal, see Mr. McCain’s position as principled, and prescient. Now, with Russia moving forcefully into Georgia as Mr. McCain seeks the presidency, his views are being scrutinized as never before through the prism of Russia’s invasion.

For Mr. McCain, the conflict came after months of warnings about the situation in Georgia. Mr. McCain befriended Georgia’s president, Mikheil Saakashvili, over the course of several trips there, and even nominated him for a Nobel Peace Prize in 2005 (in a letter that was co-signed by Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, Democrat of New York).

And his opponent? Looking less credible:

While Mr. McCain has long called for excluding Russia from the Group of 8, and isolating it on the world stage, his probable Democratic opponent, Senator Barack Obama, has made clear he favors more engagement with Russia (even as he speaks of reviewing relationships with Russia, including its interest in joining the World Trade Organization).

To give some credit to Barack Obama, he has shifted his position in the last few days as events unfolded. He now favors NATO membership for Georgia, but unfortunately, the time for that has probably passed. The time to add Georgia to NATO was before Russia invaded, not after.  If Russia withdraws at all from Georgia, it will almost certainly extract a concession from Tbilisi that it will not seek NATO membership.

This shows why experience matters in the White House.  Getting these issues wrong costs lives and risks freedom for entire nations.  The strange, ahistorical, and naïve idea that talk alone — without some threat of consequences, be they economic or otherwise — can defend freedom has the charm of never having worked once in the history of human civilization.  Even worse, misjudging one’s opponents on the world stage means that “engagement” without strategic insight will always redound to the benefit of the opponent.

No one wants war with Russia, but we could have and should have realized the nature of Vladimir Putin and his efforts to create a new Russian Empire years ago.  We could have responded by cutting off Western financial support to Putin’s new regime when it mattered and isolated them diplomatically by inviting the free nations of Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO.  John McCain wanted just that, and almost no one listened.  Now, the Georgians have to pay the price for Western credulity.

Update: The Chicago Sun-Times: “McCain, not Obama, was right about Georgia.”


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Comment pages: 1 2

Pic is awsome. If looks could kill.

BohicaTwentyTwo on August 12, 2008 at 9:38 AM

McCain, not Obama, was right about ___________ (fill in any topic under the sun).

Akzed on August 12, 2008 at 9:39 AM

“I looked into his eyes,” Mr. McCain said, “and saw three letters: a K, a G and a B.”

Google “siloviki.”

McCain is absolutely on target.

coldwarrior on August 12, 2008 at 9:39 AM

Second look at McCain.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 9:41 AM

McCain is a real American hero with extraordinary foreign policy sense. Obama on the other hand is “been nowhere, done nothing” Marxist dolt with no sense at all.

rplat on August 12, 2008 at 9:41 AM

Mac’s a old Cold Warrior and he knows one when he sees one. Putin is one too.

When I was in the A.F., they put us in classrooms showed us qoutes from Soviet leaders. One of them, don’t remember who, said “We will make them think we are their friends, and that’s when we’ll strike.”

Never trust a commie, except for when he saus he’s going to attack, then take him at his word.

Tony737 on August 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM

Well, if Obama was wrong, then so was President Bush.

pullingmyhairout on August 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM

We could have responded by cutting off Western financial support to Putin’s new regime when it mattered and isolated them diplomatically by inviting the free nations of Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO. John McCain wanted just that, and almost no one listened. Now, the Georgians have to pay the price for Western credulity.

We didn’t do that because we need their help with Iran, NK, etc. Fight one battle at a time, so to speak. I think you can make the argument that both missle defense deployment in Europe and extending invitations to Georgia on NATO are both strong steps to contain the contain the new empire. Of course, not everything works out exactly the way we would wish.

Spirit of 1776 on August 12, 2008 at 9:44 AM

Hey Ed:

Please mention the fact that there are over 1000 US troops in Georgia plus over 127 special forces which are force multipliers to the entire Georgian Army.

In fact, this pause by the Russians may imply that they have been bled bad by the Georgians. These troops can probably coordinate command, control, communications, and some intel functions making the Georgians much more effective fighters.

“In addition to the trainers, 1,000 soldiers from the Vicenza, Italy-based Southern European Task Force (Airborne) and the Kaiserslautern-based 21st Theater Sustainment Command, along with Marine reservists with the 3rd Battalion, 25th Marines out of Ohio, and the state of Georgia’s Army National Guard’s 1st Battalion, 121st Infantry recently participated in “Immediate Response 2008.”

That exercise, which had the U.S. troops operating from Vaziani, concluded on Thursday. That base, near the capital of Tbilisi, was bombed by Russian aircraft over the weekend, Georgian officials said.”

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=56704

elduende on August 12, 2008 at 9:45 AM

Well I imagine good ‘ol Johnny knows how to identify barbarians. He’s had enough first hand experience hanging out with them. Usually by his arms, bound behind his back, hanging from the ceiling.

thekingtut on August 12, 2008 at 9:47 AM

there are also rumors of a lot of Russian armor being knocked out by a mysterious Israeli anti tank missle.

elduende on August 12, 2008 at 9:48 AM

That photo of John McCain’s look at Putin is worth a thousand words. And another thousand times that in votes.

Urban Infidel on August 12, 2008 at 9:48 AM

Remember this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article683869.ece

This guy is goofball!

Firmworm on August 12, 2008 at 9:49 AM

Bush’s hard line on Iraq just doesn’t make any sense in light of his squishy Putin stand and his squishy amnesty stand and all of his other squishy _____ stands.

Maybe the critics are right after all. Maybe it was just a personal vendetta against Sadam because he tried to kill #41.

stenwin77 on August 12, 2008 at 9:51 AM

Obama has broken the record for coming up with a reasonable solution to serious problems AFTER they have played out. This guy is an embarrassment to American intelligence, if there is still such a thing.

volsense on August 12, 2008 at 9:51 AM

Say what you will about McCain (and I have), this is the greatest argument of the McCain campaign: in the last month, who was proven right in foreign policy, and who went on a media-backed vacation?

emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 9:52 AM

Wasn’t Germany one of the predominant votes against allowing Georgia into NATO? That would be the same Germany which provided the audience roaring approval of The One at his speech telling them what all was wrong with the U.S. and preceded by free band entertainment.

a capella on August 12, 2008 at 9:53 AM

Well, if Obama was wrong, then so was President Bush.

pullingmyhairout on August 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM

Agreed. Kind of kills obama’s McCain=Bush doesn’t it?

Linh_My on August 12, 2008 at 9:53 AM

“Well, if Obama was wrong, then so was President Bush.

pullingmyhairout on August 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM”

Ok, they were both wrong . . . now what’s your point?

rplat on August 12, 2008 at 9:54 AM

So … who’s foreign policy position on Georgia has The One copied – Bush’s or McCain’s?

BWWWAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! Bwaaaaahahahahahaha!

“Change you can remember from the last GOP administration.”

Jaibones on August 12, 2008 at 9:54 AM

Jaibones on August 12, 2008 at 9:54 AM

So … who’s foreign policy position on Georgia has The One copied – Bush’s or McCain’s?

Bush=obama?

Linh_My on August 12, 2008 at 9:56 AM

Hopefully that Sun Times article is in print, and not just in a blog. The article needs to be broadcasted widely, especially this section:

It took first-term Sen. Barack Obama three tries to get it right. Headed for a vacation in Hawaii, the presumed Democratic candidate for commander in chief issued an even-handed statement, urging restraint by both sides. Later Friday, he again called for mutual restraint but blamed Russia for the fighting. The next day his language finally caught up with toughness of McCain’s.

Making matters worse, Obama’s staff focused on a McCain aide who had served as a lobbyist for Georgia, charging it showed McCain was “ensconced in a lobbyist culture.” Obama’s campaign came off as injecting petty partisan politics into an international crisis. This was not a serious response on behalf a man who aspires to be the leader of the Free World.

Think_b4_speaking on August 12, 2008 at 9:56 AM

Well, if Obama was wrong, then so was President Bush.

pullingmyhairout on August 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM

Hey, buttsniff, great call. So, if Chimpy McHalliBusHitler was the root of all evil and dumber than a bag of hammers, how – exactly – does that recommend HRH ObaMessiah and his HopenChange Remedy for the Oceans and all of Humanity?

Jaibones on August 12, 2008 at 9:58 AM

So, it’s “Mr. McCain” but “Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton.”

How about ‘Ms. PUMA” instead?

dean_acheson on August 12, 2008 at 9:59 AM

http://www.slate.com/id/2191588/entry/2191589/

If you haven’t seen this Slate article on the area from a few months ago, you should check it out.

It provides a little background on the area that you won’t get from wire reports.

Asher on August 12, 2008 at 9:59 AM

mccain is right about Russia, just wish he was as steely eyed about immigration.

right4life on August 12, 2008 at 10:00 AM

I’m partially quoting a very relevant statement I read in the National Review this AM(actually referring to Columbia, an excellent article by Otto Reich)which applies to Obama, both his statements and his obvious inability to recognize evil intention when he sees it. “Like many well meaning democrats…..made the mistake of projecting his good intentions onto a deceitful adversary”. It is this very trait, most admired by the left, which makes Obama a poor choice for leader of this country. The Putins of the world will have him for lunch.

jeanie on August 12, 2008 at 10:00 AM

Spirit: In what way, may I ask, has Russia “helped” with Iran? What is Iran not doing that they would be doing without Russia’s intervention? I don’t believe that voting for sanctions that were and are ineffective counts as positive activity, and I don’t think that Russia or Iran believe it either. Russia covers for Iran, they don’t moderate them.

Immolate on August 12, 2008 at 10:00 AM

“McCain, not Obama, was right about Georgia.”

McCain, not Obama, was right about the surge.
McCain, not Obama, was right about who should be America’s next president.

AZCoyote on August 12, 2008 at 10:00 AM

I’m not familiar with the Chicago Sun-Times. Does anyone know its political bias?

JiangxiDad on August 12, 2008 at 10:01 AM

Boy, is Victor Davis Hanson spot on, or what?

The Russians rightly expect Westerners to turn on themselves, rather than Moscow — and they won’t be disappointed….

From what the Russians learned of the Western reaction to Iraq, they expect their best apologists will be American politicians, pundits, professors, and essayists — and once more they will not be disappointed.

Think_b4_speaking on August 12, 2008 at 10:01 AM

These are difficult times in terms of national security and security of our allies.
McCain is an experienced military guy that knows these world leaders.
He won’t take crap from Putin nor any other rogue dictator.
Maybe democrats should take a second look at Hillary. She apparently has more brains than the whole DNC and that’s not saying much.

jencab on August 12, 2008 at 10:03 AM

Meanwhile, Arianna Huffington is asking Obama to try to put the focus on McCain’s foreign policy.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/08/obamas_vacation_assignment_pre.html

What great advice!

Wonder if Barack could survive another round of questioning about his “judgment” about the surge and has anymore shameless lies left to try and hide it.

gumble on August 12, 2008 at 10:04 AM

Wait a second – Obama wants to put Georgia on a path to NATO membership? According to the NYT article, Lobbyist Randy Scheunemann was in charge of doing just that.

So, why did the Obama campaign attack Randy Scheunemann in the first place? These Washington insider cookie-cutter replies aren’t going to be enough anymore.

jtorres138 on August 12, 2008 at 10:06 AM

mccain is right about Russia, just wish he was as steely eyed about immigration.
right4life on August 12, 2008 at 10:00 AM

It’s not outside the realm of possibility that McCoot will change his mind if enough people pressure him. Constantly keep this message (in the real world, beyond just making comments on a conservative website) to him that this is wrong. And why it’s wrong.

wise_man on August 12, 2008 at 10:06 AM

I’m not familiar with the Chicago Sun-Times. Does anyone know its political bias?

JiangxiDad on August 12, 2008 at 10:01 AM

.
Lefty, like all newspapers these days; perceived to be not quite as left as the Chicago Tribune.

Think_b4_speaking on August 12, 2008 at 10:06 AM

Why is it “mr” McCain and “senator” Obama?

ArmyAunt on August 12, 2008 at 10:08 AM

Judgment to Lead Follow Waffle Flip-Flop

Sooner or later, Obama gets it right wrong whatever.

NeighborhoodCatLady on August 12, 2008 at 10:08 AM

It must have pained the MSM to write such positive things about our republican nominee.

jencab on August 12, 2008 at 10:09 AM

Why is it “mr” McCain and “senator” Obama?

ArmyAunt on August 12, 2008 at 10:08 AM

.
Because when it comes to the press boosting an unqualified candidate over a qualified one, every little bit helps.

Think_b4_speaking on August 12, 2008 at 10:10 AM

Think_b4_speaking on August 12, 2008 at 10:06 AM

thank you.

JiangxiDad on August 12, 2008 at 10:11 AM

Well, if Obama was wrong, then so was President Bush.

pullingmyhairout on August 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM

Good point. This is a two-fer double-plus for McCain. First, he was right, and his position was different from Bush’s. So he can hammer Obama for being clueless again, and shoot down the McCain=Bush nonsense.

forest on August 12, 2008 at 10:11 AM

Wait a second – Obama wants to put Georgia on a path to NATO membership? According to the NYT article, Lobbyist Randy Scheunemann was in charge of doing just that.

So, why did the Obama campaign attack Randy Scheunemann in the first place? These Washington insider cookie-cutter replies aren’t going to be enough anymore.

jtorres138 on August 12, 2008 at 10:06 AM

Heh. Good question. Did The One step on his crank again?
He’s for Georgia membership in NATO but against someone lobbying for that? WTF?

a capella on August 12, 2008 at 10:13 AM

Barry lives in a world of fantasy like many of his robot like supporters.

Russia will always be a problem for the west there is no changing that.

TroubledMonkey on August 12, 2008 at 10:15 AM

Maybe democrats should take a second look at Hillary. She apparently has more brains than the whole DNC and that’s not saying much.
jencab on August 12, 2008 at 10:03 AM

I agree, in theory. I’d rather they run Obama and loose. But one of Hillary’s qualifications is that she payed attention while being in the whitehouse. I don’t know if she sat in on any classified briefings to actually know better. From what other people have said, she’s not an idiot on international matters as Obama is. And if She was president, she’d might not be that bad as far as that goes.

But still, her domestic side would be horrendous. I still cant understand the whole, ‘I landed under sniper fire and ran to cover’ BS that she repeatedly spun as part of her qualifications. Why lie when it’s not even necessary? McCain or Hillary? Wow. That is a crappy choice. McCain and Obama? A lot more clear as to who should be allowed to govern, and who needs to go back to kindergarten.

wise_man on August 12, 2008 at 10:15 AM

No one wants war with Russia, but we could have and should have realized the nature of Vladimir Putin and his efforts to create a new Russian Empire years ago. We could have responded by cutting off Western financial support to Putin’s new regime when it mattered and isolated them diplomatically by inviting the free nations of Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO. John McCain wanted just that, and almost no one listened. Now, the Georgians have to pay the price for Western credulity.

But McCain will usher in an entire new cold war. YIPPEE! We get to confront those commies with our democratically elected communist government all over again. . . YIPPEE!

If we had helped Russia after the fall of the soviet union they wouldn’t have needed to have a strong man like Putin in power in the first place. My main criticism of Clinton is his reluctance to make Russia into an ally when they needed us. . . but it probably had more to do with the old cold warriors in the Pentagon than anything Clinton had to do.

We had a golden opportunity when the USSR fell. It’s wasted now and now there is a new USSR who will have help from Islamic militants. Our government does zero to protect us. . . no matter who was ‘right’ about Putin. . . Putin was created out of necessity in a leadership vacuum in Russia due to no help after the fall of communism.

But YAY McCain was right! YAY we get another cold war thanks to good old democracy! Get your bomb shelters ready because McCain was RIGHT! YAY! McCain told you so YAY!

ThackerAgency on August 12, 2008 at 10:15 AM

I guess McCain doesn’t think Putin is one of God’s children.

BigD on August 12, 2008 at 10:16 AM

Pic is awsome. If looks could kill.

BohicaTwentyTwo on August 12, 2008 at 9:38 AM

Yes McCain is looking grim at Putin in that picture. Now I think Bush understands he was taken in by Putin and here is the new way Bush looks at Putin.

Maxx on August 12, 2008 at 10:16 AM

But McCain will usher in an entire new cold war. YIPPEE! We get to confront those commies with our democratically elected communist government all over again. . . YIPPEE!

But YAY McCain was right! YAY we get another cold war thanks to good old democracy! Get your bomb shelters ready because McCain was RIGHT! YAY! McCain told you so YAY!
ThackerAgency on August 12, 2008 at 10:15 AM

Do you feel better with this out of your system now?

wise_man on August 12, 2008 at 10:17 AM

And how much ‘western financial support’ have we offered Russia? Show me the figures. I’d bet we have given ‘Palestine’ more than we have given Russia.

ThackerAgency on August 12, 2008 at 10:18 AM

wise_man on August 12, 2008 at 10:17 AM

Do I feel better that people are happy that the cold war is starting again? They are happy that ‘their guy’ “told you so”.

Do you feel better that your guy was right and we are going into another cold war? Who you gonna vote for now? IT DOESN’T MATTER.

ThackerAgency on August 12, 2008 at 10:19 AM

We had a golden opportunity when the USSR fell. It’s wasted now and now there is a new USSR who will have help from Islamic militants. Our government does zero to protect us. . . no matter who was ‘right’ about Putin. . . Putin was created out of necessity in a leadership vacuum in Russia due to no help after the fall of communism.

ThackerAgency on August 12, 2008 at 10:15 AM

.
Some basic flaws in your analysis: 1. We did help Russia after the fall of the USSR – food, training, we paid for weapon dismantlement, etc. 2. Putin was not created – he took over in what was basically a mafia coup, with his only popular mandate being to restore some pride in Russia. 3. Most Russians despise moslems, going back over a thousand years to the Hun period, but they won’t help because not only do they have plenty in their territory who need to be kept passive, but they would rather have us bleed.

Think_b4_speaking on August 12, 2008 at 10:22 AM

Meanwhile, George Clooney is advising Obama on Middle East policy… wonderful.

http://www.tvsquad.com/images/2005/11/facts-85-86.jpg

D2Boston on August 12, 2008 at 10:24 AM

Do you feel better that your guy was right and we are going into another cold war? Who you gonna vote for now? IT DOESN’T MATTER.

ThackerAgency on August 12, 2008 at 10:19 AM

So, your approach to present problem solving here is to moan about what might have been if we had only sent more money to Russia? Our 2008 presidential elections are meaningless as regards future foreign policy?

a capella on August 12, 2008 at 10:26 AM

ThackerAgency on August 12, 2008 at 10:19 AM

Que es su problemo hoy?

Akzed on August 12, 2008 at 10:28 AM

Well, if Obama was wrong, then so was President Bush.

pullingmyhairout on August 12, 2008 at 9:43 AM

So another 4 more years of Bush would not equal McCain but rather …Obama.

shick on August 12, 2008 at 10:29 AM

“If we had helped Russia after the fall of the soviet union”

I see what you mean – we could have “helped” a historical bunch of demographically challenged, backward peasants led by barbarians, who had for their entire history squandered their vast national resources, into civilization.

How we could have done that, I’m sure you don’t know. But you can feel morally superior by blaming “us” (although what I individually could have done to “help” Russia, I’m sure I don’t know).

Blaming America for problems around the globe is just intellectually vacuous and completely useless. We have enough problems with what we may be able to control, we don’t need to be trying to perfect a FUBAR’ed country like Russia, because it’s a waste of time.

NoDonkey on August 12, 2008 at 10:31 AM

McCain for President!

Rogue Traveler on August 12, 2008 at 10:31 AM

Do you feel better that your guy was right and we are going into another cold war? Who you gonna vote for now? IT DOESN’T MATTER.

What? No hope?

Rogue Traveler on August 12, 2008 at 10:33 AM

If we had helped Russia after the fall of the soviet union they wouldn’t have needed to have a strong man like Putin in power in the first place.

We did help Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union.

If you weren’t lost in the swamps of theology, you would have remembered that.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:34 AM

I don’t know. When they NYTs mentions neoconservatives, it’s never meant to be complimentary.

Obama’s foreign policy, such as it is, is based on the idea that if the US talks more inclusively about bad actors, they won’t have an excuse to act badly any more. It was interesting to see the shift in his statements over just three days. We’ll see if he’s learned that sometimes bad actors are just doing what they want to do.

MayBee on August 12, 2008 at 10:36 AM

See Robert Kagan’s, “The Return of History, and End of Dreams” that came out few months back. This is the McCain school of thought at dead on accurate.

jp on August 12, 2008 at 10:36 AM

I find it funny that a rabid isolationist is complaining that we didn’t do more to “help” another country.

I find it funny that someone who claims to have libertarian leanings, is complaining that the US govt did not take more of people’s money in order to lavish it on the govt of another country.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:37 AM

Maverick!!!!!!

Hening on August 12, 2008 at 10:37 AM

anyone heard the Paultards take on this mess, or went over to the sewer that is Lew Rockwells blog?

jp on August 12, 2008 at 10:40 AM

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:37 AM

Makes you wonder.

wise_man on August 12, 2008 at 10:40 AM

I find it funny that a rabid isolationist is complaining that we didn’t do more to “help” another country.

I find it funny that someone who claims to have libertarian leanings, is complaining that the US govt did not take more of people’s money in order to lavish it on the govt of another country.

It’s because people don’t know the history of their claimed party. It’s supposed to feel good to be a democrat or a libertarian. They have no clue what historical stances their parties have taken (it’s the only way I can explain why over 90% of African Americans vote democrat) or what strategies their party would employ. Republican/Conservative = bad. As long as Person A does not = Republican, Person A must be good.

Rogue Traveler on August 12, 2008 at 10:45 AM

To give some credit to Barack Obama, he has shifted his position in the last few days as events unfolded. He now favors NATO membership for Georgia, but unfortunately, the time for that has probably passed.

This is a perfect “3 am phone call” moment — and it wasn’t even at 3 am! Obama badly misjudged his response, didn’t take the threat seriously, and then crassly tried to maneuver his position after it became evidence he got it wrong. As President, you can’t do that.

That said, I don’t hate Bush for being friendly with Putin in public and for employing extensive use of the carrot approach rather than the stick approach. Putin is definitely dialing back democracy in Russia and is taking Russia in a less-than-good direction, but it’s not clear that restarting the Cold War by aggressively NATO-izing Russia’s neighbors and diplomatically isolating Russia is the right response.

Outlander on August 12, 2008 at 10:46 AM

The proof is in McCain. Obama can’t hold a candle to him on experience and experience matters. How come most people don’t get that?
I’m not a big fan of McCain either but a choice between him and Bambi isn’t even a choice.

Geronimo on August 12, 2008 at 10:47 AM

we need someone with the same lust for power, and ruthlessness that Putin has….HILLARY!!!

right4life on August 12, 2008 at 10:48 AM

I find it funny that a rabid isolationist is complaining that we didn’t do more to “help” another country.

I find it funny that someone who claims to have libertarian leanings, is complaining that the US govt did not take more of people’s money in order to lavish it on the govt of another country.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:37 AM

To whom are you referring?

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 10:48 AM

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:37 AM

You noticed it too!

emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 10:51 AM

Nobody is happy about the prospect of another Cold War with Russia, but it is perfectly reasonable to point out that a jarring reminder of the bad actors in the world beyond muslim extremists, is just another reminder of why McCain is much more qualified to serve as President. Believe me, I’d much rather live in a world of unicorns and fairies where everyone gets along and Obama would be a perfect leader, but that’s not the world we live in.

Dudley Smith on August 12, 2008 at 10:52 AM

If we had helped Russia after the fall of the soviet union they wouldn’t have needed to have a strong man like Putin in power in the first place.

ThackerAgency on August 12, 2008 at 10:15 AM

Yeah, let’s give them money OR ELSE they’ll really show us. How’s NAZI ass taste, Chamberlain?

Darth Executor on August 12, 2008 at 10:53 AM

I see what you mean – we could have “helped” a historical bunch of demographically challenged, backward peasants led by barbarians, who had for their entire history squandered their vast national resources, into civilization.
NoDonkey on August 12, 2008 at 10:31 AM

The Russians have a rich heritage in math, science, literature, and the arts. They beat the U.S. into space, arguably have better tanks and planes than we do, and Russian immigrants into the U.S. tend to do very well. Their biggest problem is their perennial lack of an effective and free government.

Rather than attack the Russians as being a bunch of “barbarians,” you should instead thank God that you live in a country whose government respects individual liberty, democratic principles, and respect for religion.

Outlander on August 12, 2008 at 10:54 AM

Yup better tanks. Just ask the citizens of Georgia.

wise_man on August 12, 2008 at 10:56 AM

The Russians have a rich heritage in math, science, literature, and the arts. They beat the U.S. into space, arguably have better tanks and planes than we do, and Russian immigrants into the U.S. tend to do very well. Their biggest problem is their perennial lack of an effective and free government.

you really have to wonder why russia is such a dark place…is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, as churchill said. they have a rich literary tradition, and a long history of christianity, but they have remained a despotic country, no matter who rules them.

right4life on August 12, 2008 at 10:57 AM

Outlander on August 12, 2008 at 10:54 AM

In all fairness, he didn’t. He said they were demographically challenged (which they are) and were led by barbarians (which they have been, at the very least since 1917).

The Russians are up to their old tricks. Time to man up, everyone.

emailnuevo on August 12, 2008 at 10:58 AM

And for the people who may claim ancestry from Russian who take offense when their country is disparaged .. You might want to consider that the people making these comments are actually disparaging the leadership of Russia. Not the people. There is a difference.

wise_man on August 12, 2008 at 11:02 AM

Outlander on August 12, 2008 at 10:54 AM

The Russians …arguably have better tanks and planes than we do…

I am a retired tank commander and have carefully examined Russian tanks. Russian tanks were arguably the best tanks in WWII. There is no argument that Russian tanks were superior to American Tanks in WWII.

Now it is a different story. In every battle we’ve had over the last 20 years, the kill ratio between American tanks and Russian tanks was roughly 100 to 1 in favor of American tanks. Current Russian tanks are roughly equal to the M60A3 which was replaced in my National Guard unit in the early 1990’s

Linh_My on August 12, 2008 at 11:10 AM

but they have remained a despotic country, no matter who rules them.

right4life on August 12, 2008 at 10:57 AM

Russia is an oriental, not occidental power. Russia faces East. It’s despotism is culturally inspired.

JiangxiDad on August 12, 2008 at 11:15 AM

They beat the U.S. into space…

…and the US beat them to the moon.

arguably have better tanks and planes than we do…

Outlander on August 12, 2008 at 10:54 AM

MIG-29s versus F15Es or F-18s? We win. Foxhounds versus Raptors? We win. T-72 versus Abrams? Heh. Heh heh.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 11:17 AM

you really have to wonder why russia is such a dark place…is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, as churchill said. they have a rich literary tradition, and a long history of christianity, but they have remained a despotic country, no matter who rules them.

right4life on August 12, 2008 at 10:57 AM

religion, or lack there of and paticularly the lack of Christianity.

Russia has 42% of the Worlds resources, yet far behind us and Europe Economically.

jp on August 12, 2008 at 11:17 AM

They beat the U.S. into space…

…and the US beat them to the moon.

…arguably have better tanks and planes than we do…

Outlander on August 12, 2008 at 10:54 AM

MIG-29s versus F15Es or F-18s? We win. Foxhounds versus Raptors? We win. T-72 versus Abrams? Heh. Heh heh.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 11:18 AM

btw, time to crank out the Reagan documentary, “In the Face of Evil”, as a history refresher for new and younger conservatives and paticularly paultards inflicting the party.

Fantastic Documentary, if I taught US history I would show it in class.

someone put the whole thing on Youtube recently!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJQi8nEIj2g

jp on August 12, 2008 at 11:19 AM

The President increasingly appears to have no will to make a principled stand against Russia. I pray this is not his “Jimmy Carter” moment.

sanantonian on August 12, 2008 at 11:20 AM

MIG-29s versus F15Es or F-18s? We win. Foxhounds versus Raptors? We win. T-72 versus Abrams? Heh. Heh heh.

Not if our leadership shows itself to be the empty suits they have appeared to be for the past few days.

The troops are ready; the equipment is good; the leadership is….apparently wanting.

sanantonian on August 12, 2008 at 11:22 AM

When faced with a real “3 a.m. moment,” Obama — who boasts about 200 foreign policy advisors, broken into 10 subgroups — proclaims, “I’m going to get some shave ice.”

Heh.

Jaibones on August 12, 2008 at 11:29 AM

McCain is no idealist, and has much more foreign policy experience than Bush. I think he could stand up to a Russia that says “crush them”, and then did so, when invading a former satellite that got a little uppity.

PattyJ on August 12, 2008 at 11:33 AM

MIG-29s versus F15Es or F-18s? We win. Foxhounds versus Raptors? MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 11:18 AM

Everything I’ve heard is that the MIG-29 and SU-30 series are better suited for air-to-air missions than than the F15E and F18. That’s why we’re looking to upgrade to the F22 Raptor, and why the Russkies are building PAKs (their replacement for the Foxhound).

Outlander on August 12, 2008 at 11:55 AM

…arguably have better tanks and planes than we do…Outlander on August 12, 2008 at 10:54 AM

I was a platoon leader in a tank company with the M1A1’s. There’s NO WAY a t-72 or a t-80 has a chance against a M1A1, it wouldn’t even be close.

The best book out there fyi is a NONfiction by Tom Clancy called Armored Cav. This book will set you straight.

I served mostly under Clinton so the only thing I shot at was made of plywood or scrap metal.

The Georgians can handle this readily. We just need to provide support, especially ground to air missiles, and logistics.

Mojave Mark on August 12, 2008 at 12:10 PM

Everything I’ve heard is that the MIG-29 and SU-30 series are better suited for air-to-air missions than than the F15E and F18. That’s why we’re looking to upgrade to the F22 Raptor, and why the Russkies are building PAKs (their replacement for the Foxhound).

Outlander on August 12, 2008 at 11:55 AM

Largely comes down to how often the flight patterns and tactics are changed. As far as I know, the US is still doing it about every 5 years to Russia’s 10.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:36 PM

Did a Liberal Nutroot just come on here and say we should have done more to help Russia after the fall of Communism? AND equate a return to the Cold War on McCain being right in this instance? Talk about being clueless!

In case everyone missed it, I do believe Sir William of Bentdick was inhabiting the White House at that time, and might have been too busy coddling Chinese interests to be bothered with helping Russia!

photomunkey on August 12, 2008 at 12:44 PM

One of those 200 foreign policy advisors Obama has should have asked “What would Winnie the Pooh do?”

I can see the bumper stickers now:
“Russian invasion? WWWtPD?”!

photomunkey on August 12, 2008 at 12:49 PM

Second look at McCain.

MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 9:41 AM

Did this a few weeks ago and now I am convinced… McCain will clobber Barry O. Now if we could only get Republicans elected that would fight him on immigration…

Swinehound on August 12, 2008 at 1:31 PM

The Russian Air Force has gone from a flight capable inventory of over 5000 combat aircraft of all types in 1990 to just about 2000 combat aircraft of all types today. It has less than half the interceptors it had in 1990. Most of its inventory is about 30+ years old. Its military infrastructure is antique by the best estimates.

About one-quarter of Russia’s fighters are MiG-29’s and Su-27’s. Impressive at air shows, but combat experience is lacking. From the videos of action over Georgia, most of the aircraft utilized were not Su-27’s and MiG-29’s. Logistics and maintenance continue to hamper keeping these aircraft air-worthy. Losing them over Georgia is not something the Russians would consider lightly. The Russians are faced with a decline in R&D funding across the board, and this impacts aircraft design as well. Getting a design into production, and testing and evaluating it takes time, and money, and then, you have to train pilots to utilize the aircraft…gain experience. There isn’t a very large pool of pilots in the Russian Air Force to allow for rotation and upgrading training, and that pool has very very few combat experienced pilots.

The Russians are working on fifth-generation aircraft…but are farming out a huge segment of their program to India, because at home resources are scant and cumbersome. This program has had delay after delay since the initial deals were signed. Most of the former Soviet heavy-lift aircraft now belong to Ukraine, which has made a good bit of money renting out or wet leasing Il-76’s and larger Condors commericially across the globe, even here within the United States. Most of Russia’s air heavy lift is still performed with old Antonov’s.

Lack of flight time for pilots, a few hours every few months, if that, is pretty much the norm, and lack of coodination in air-ground mode, diminishes the Russian Air Force’s ability to provide timely ground support, still relying on GCI and local air command relay of targetting information.

So, no, the Russians are in no way comparable to the US Air Force when it comes to emplying aircraft in a combat or even airlift mode.

But, what the Russians depend on is mass. Economy of force was never one of their favored military principles. In that, they have an advantage. But relying on mass clouds other essentials. Coordination is one. Turning loose a few divisions in a confined battle area, with poor communications, little or no coordination between adjacent units, all command being sent through a very narrow funnel…if you want to attack someone and casualties on your own side don’t mean much, and if colatteral damage and massive civilian deaths, non-combatant deaths, are no biggie, then the current Russian tactics in the employment of combat units is something you may wish to emulate. And, the Russian army? Large groups of armed thugs, led by armed thugs. Discipline is still enforced at the battlion level by brutality. At the upper levels by bribes. Military training? Perfunctory at best. They are not a 24/7 all-weather capable armed force.

But all of this is moot in the present circumstance.

Putin has set the stage for a sea change in how the world views Russia. In exchange for destroying Georgia (and potentially Azerbaijan and Armenia, among others) how the rest of the world reacts to Russia is what will be gained or lost as a result of this past week’s Russian-sponsored destruction.

Instead of arguing over whether or not the Su-27 is more or less capable than the F-18, perhaps we should look at the overall picture. Tactics are for amateurs. Bean-counting is for voyeurs. Strategic thinking involves a higher plane of thought.

Kissinger being in Beijing this past week may not have been happenstance.

The idea of tying everything Russia does with everything Russia does or wants to do makes good sense. Russia needs investment and markets, among other things. If Russia wants to play bully in one vein, then it would be perfectly appropriate for us to deny Russia what is wants in another vein. [Hopefully, the old Euros are listening. The new Euros have been speaking quite loudly on this matter.] Hitting on Russian weaknesses to deter their strengths in other areas is of strategic value. It works. Kissinger, among others, was an author of this line of thought.

Not all of Mother Russia is willingly falling in line behind Putin. He holds power. The moment that power is shown to be nothing but a tattered facade, he’s gone. He understands this. So do all the “siloviki.” The old apparatchiks and nomeclatura will sell their daughters to Putin to remain on his loyal list. But the rest of Russia? They have seen the limited gains of the early ’90’s taken away from them under Putin…and it is a safe bet to believe that they’d like to get some of those gains back. Thus, the Russian economy is a key to bringing down Putin.

The power elites ["siloviki"] are marshalled under the thumb of Putin and his methodical emplacement of KGB loyalists at every Ministry, every district, every autonomous republic, every industrial concern, every center of power throughout Russia. “A Tsar is Born!” is one of those bumper-sticker slogans that has great depth and lethality behind it.

Our question to ourselves should be, what are we going to do about it?

coldwarrior on August 12, 2008 at 1:55 PM

Everything I’ve heard is that the MIG-29 and SU-30 series are better suited for air-to-air missions than than the F15E and F18. That’s why we’re looking to upgrade to the F22 Raptor, and why the Russkies are building PAKs (their replacement for the Foxhound).

Outlander on August 12, 2008 at 11:55 AM

From the Economist

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=11916337&source=features_box_main

The military cost to Russia is still unclear. The Russian high command admitted to losing four planes, while Georgia claims to have shot down 20 aircraft; Mr Saakashvili claimed some Russian unexploded bombs had been daubed with messages such as “This one is for NATO”. Although routed in South Ossetia, Georgian forces might yet have put up a sterner fight to defend Tbilisi. The war, moreover, alarmed investors in Russia, weakening the rouble and Russian stocks.

In four days the Russians admit that four of their fighter and bomber planes were shot down. The comparable figure for America in the last twenty years is…?

Linh_My on August 12, 2008 at 2:07 PM

We did help Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union.

MarkTheGreat on August 12, 2008 at 10:34 AM

It bears repeating.

baldilocks on August 12, 2008 at 2:50 PM

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