Bush: Russians looking to depose Georgian government; Update: Video added
posted at 5:49 pm on August 11, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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President George Bush finally let Russia have it with both barrels this afternoon, at least in diplomatic terms. In a terse and angry statement after his return from the Beijing Olympics, Bush accused Moscow of reneging on its commitment to proportionate response and said that “intelligence” indicated that Vladimir Putin might depose the freely-elected government in Tbilisi. He also warned Russia that it risks relationships with the US and Europe and its standing in the world:
In a Rose Garden statement Monday, Bush said there appeared to be an attempt by Russia to unseat Georgia’s pro-Western president, Mikhail Saakashvili.
He demanded an immediate cease-fire, the withdrawal of Russian troops from the conflict zone and a return to the status quo as of Aug. 6.
Bush appears to have become angered at Russian double-dealing. His statement suggests that Putin told him something very different than what has become obvious over the last 24 hours: the Russians want to take Georgia by force. This statement offers the strongest indication yet that the US may start taking a more active role in assisting Georgia in resisting the Russian invasion. It was the kind of firm, unmistakable signal that we should have sent in the conflict’s opening hours.
I’ll look for the video and post it ASAP.
Update: Still looking for video, but the West sent a very strong signal to Putin today. The G-8 met on a conference call — or should I say the G-7?
Rice and the foreign ministers of Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan spoke in a conference call, during which they noted that Georgia had agreed to a cease-fire and wanted to see Russia sign on immediately, he said, adding that the call was one of more than 90 that Rice has made on the matter since Friday. …
The Group of Seven, or G7, is often expanded into what is known as the G8, a grouping that includes Russia, but Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov was notably not included in the call.
McCain has long called for the G-8 to expel Russia. This snub indicates that the members may decide to trim their membership, and with it some economic benefits for Moscow.
Update II: MS-NBC has the first embeddable video of the speech:
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And apologize for not getting it.
This Cold Warrior thinks that, sometimes, all solutions are bad ones.
baldilocks on August 11, 2008 at 10:42 PM
And I apologize for not getting it.
baldilocks on August 11, 2008 at 10:42 PM
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 10:31 PM
God I hope those actions are part of the response to this Russian invasion but we need to do more.
We need to help the Georgians.
We also need to make final preparations to hit the Iranians because i have the suspicion that this Russian action is linked to that in some way.
I’m hoping it does not turn into some quid pro quo where we’re allowed free reign with Iran in exchange for Russian free reign in Georgia.
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 10:43 PM
We have certainly done a great deal of good in the world and still do good. I’m not saying we should fight every battle there is to fight. I’m merely saying that if we do decide to engage, we should engage to win. In this case, as a country whom we have supported so much in the past, a free country who stands between free Europe and “the Beast”, we owe them our support. “Support” does not imply a full-out military invasion of conventional forces. An insurgency must be countered with a counterinsurgency effort.
Send_Me on August 11, 2008 at 10:44 PM
Well, there is always an Option C between the two. :) Start overnight shipping massive amounts FGM-148 Javelin’s and FIM-92 Stinger’s to Tbilisi before Ivan runs the capital over. And let’s wait and see how the battle goes in one week.
blahdy on August 11, 2008 at 10:46 PM
I don’t understand what these assorted statements are supposed to convey. What do I support? When answering that, please quote me. What’s as if you’d back…? Who’s being nationalistic? Please be specific and provide quotes.
freevillage on August 11, 2008 at 10:46 PM
will be too late for the people and democratically elected gov’t of georgia though… when it does affect us we WILL act and noone will respect us because we only care when it affects us…
BadBrad on August 11, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Putin has done the math, and concluded that the USA is on the ropes, and cannot respond. Act now, act swiftly, act decisively, act boldly.
The belligerant genie is out of the Russian bottle.
Either he gets away with it, or Europe and NATO confront him.
Showtime. Think I will make some popcorn. May not get to do that again for a while.
shaken on August 11, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Classical realist/conservative foreign policy view. Respectable point of view, but I think not the best one for this event. You are probably right that the mood of the country would limit our ability to play world cop. But the American people can be leveled with. If they knew that this behavior will continue with Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Esthonia, and how many more, I think they can be convinced. Not for an all out war, but for an all out renewal of the Cold War. This situation demands no less.
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Send_Me:
Of course we should fight to win. And I agree that we should help Georgia, but what about Ukraine and Lithuania and all the other countries of the region? And Poland?
When Pershing went to Europe in WW1 he said Lafayette is here to the Allied commander. It was meant that a debt was being repaid. Lafayette helped America and so we were repaying the favor. We owed the French.
In WW2 we owed the British. I am not saying that we did not, the point I keep trying to make is that I am not sure America feels like that anymore. I think a lot of Americans would like to say bon voyage to the rest of the world. Been nice knowing you. Clean up your own mess. Don’t call us, we’ll call you. No good deed goes unpunished.
That is what we have to be prepared for. I think Bush has the willingness to go after Russia, it is the rest of us who are getting tired of the world.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:52 PM
BadBrad on August 11, 2008 at 10:48 PM
exactly. it will be too late to help Georgia if we fritter away the time we have left whining. Your Ukrainian idea is spot on though.
I think that whatever else may happen before this is over we’ll have more military commitments closer to the Russian heartland than we even wanted before.
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 10:52 PM
I was thinking/fearing the same thing. Perhaps the Russians were aware that we were considering blockading/escalating the Iranian nuclear situation and so they acted.
To those who think we shouldn’t “police the world” so to speak, just look at what th bad actors in the world do when we’re busy.
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 10:52 PM
Agreed. Lies have worked with Iraq. No reason why they shouldn’t now.
freevillage on August 11, 2008 at 10:52 PM
Bryan:
I am not a typical realist. I supported the war in Iraq. I still do. I support staying in Afghanistan. I think we should have taken out that half baked revolution in Iran in its infancy. But I am not America. I just live here.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:54 PM
Bryan:
Read freevillage and weep. They will say it is a lie and once it becomes clear it is not a lie, they will say, why should I care.
And then they will talk about Darfur.
Now if you could convince them that it would drive up the price of gas…
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:57 PM
Really thats a stupid comment. I suppose it was “lies” when Russia poisoned the president of Ukraine with dioxin. It must have been “lies” when the Russians crippled the Esthonian’s entire government with a cyber attack.
These countries really do fear Russia. Must have been “lies” that they didn’t want to be invaded and occupied by the Soviet Union for decades and fear the recurrence of the same. Georgia is mistaken–it is not being invaded, just being restored to peace.
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 10:58 PM
WTF part two????
wccawa on August 11, 2008 at 10:59 PM
I didn’t read all 5,000 comments, but I did listen to Glen Beck tonight. He had some insightful comments that made perfect sense. One, about Russia’s quest to become the world’s oil supply by building the pipeline through Europe (which Reagan (and later Chaney) condemned because he knew what would happen); then when Georgia began their own pipeline, Russia went ballistic because it wanted it’s own pipeline. Russia threatened Geogia over that pipeline, but Georgia went ahead with it. Russia envisioned, basically what Glen said they wanted to replace OPEC and be the world’s leaders in oil. Georgia would not back down – thus the invasion. I honestly believe Bush gets this.
Neocon Peg on August 11, 2008 at 11:00 PM
Neocon Peg:
Yes, it was 2002 when that pipeline became an issue. It meant that Russia did not control all the oil. They wanted to stop the pipeline, now it seems they want to steal it.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 11:02 PM
Yet another reason to drill drill drill.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 11:03 PM
I posted a link to an article talking about how Georgians felt about us NOW. I doubt that I can find it again. It was from a day or two ago, and now that a day or two, probably a week or two to them, has passed, well you can guess how they feel NOW. How would you feel? Of course, if Bush is readying something BIG behind the scenes then ALL will probably be forgiven. I hope that he is, but am not optimistic.
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 11:05 PM
Of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko#Dioxin_poisoning
freevillage on August 11, 2008 at 11:06 PM
Quote me on Darfur.
freevillage on August 11, 2008 at 11:07 PM
I can hear the refrain now: NO BLOOD FOR OIL!
More seriously, though, we have a technological advantage today that we did not have in the 70s. The possibility of developing new energy breakthroughs is mroe real today than 30 years ago. Being in favor of a free market, I think the best way to allow for competition–at least for liquid fuels–is to mandate all cars be made flex fuel. Then, any number of liquid fuels can compete and let the best one win. It’s a relatively unobtrusive and inexpensive mandate as far as government mandates go, but the end result is to support market competition of fuels.
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 11:08 PM
Entire government? Yes, it’s a lie. Some agency somewhere, I could imagine that’s possible. I know you’re very concerned about a country whose name you can’t even spell. But my own view is that this is a ridiculous example of Russia trying to hurt Estonia. Although I personally don’t support Russian foreign policy in general, and their stance with respect to the Baltic states in particular.
freevillage on August 11, 2008 at 11:10 PM
MB4:
I don’t know how they feel, but it has only been a few days.
And besides, you never supported the Iraq war. The fact that we had promised to help the Iraqi people against the dictator Saddam did not carry any weight with you. I guess that whole thing about who we owe and why how they feel about us is entirely subjective.
How do you think the Georgians feel about the UN or the Europeans or anyone who else who is watching this happen right now?
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 11:11 PM
BryanS
BadBrad
sorry guys i got your comments mixed up before about placing a US base Ukraine. i agree with both of you though.
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 11:12 PM
Bryan:
Yes, sometimes I think that oil has been a kind of curse. If we could find a way to lessen its importance everyone would be better off.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 11:13 PM
freevillage:
wtf????
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 11:14 PM
Yes, it was 2002 when that pipeline became an issue. It meant that Russia did not control all the oil. They wanted to stop the pipeline, now it seems they want to steal it.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 11:02
Neocon Peg on August 11, 2008 at 11:14 PM
Such a libtard. If you are going to quote wikipedia–by no means the final say on what is true–how about quoting something even remotely close to the tenor of what is reported on the site. What you quote is from a section titled “dioxin controversy”, a section following the one titled “Dioxin Poisoning”. This followup secion is typically where wikipedia allows the airing of “controversial” minority opinion/conspiracy theories.
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 11:15 PM
They can’t own us. What would they do with us?
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 11:16 PM
WTF is your wtf supposed to mean? Who wrote this, you piece of honorless garbage?
You, piece of crap, attribute words to me and then don’t even bother to supply quotes when I call you on this. All while dismissively talking sh&t about me to others: look at him, he’ll say lies and then move on.
What stinking trash. Unbelievable.
freevillage on August 11, 2008 at 11:18 PM
Obama will handle the Russians…scares me just thinking about it.
Karmi on August 11, 2008 at 11:18 PM
Thank you for educating me on how Wikipedia operates. If I spent more than three years writing math articles for it, I would know that myself. Luckily there’s always educators available.
There’s not a single shred of hard evidence that Yuschenko’s poisoning is tied to Russia. I support Yuschenko, but this is pure propaganda. I have no idea what happened to him. I’d like to know. He had years and all the resources within the country to provide proof of Russian connection. He didn’t. That says it all to me.
freevillage on August 11, 2008 at 11:22 PM
freevillage:
Oh for Chrisake, I was speaking in generalities. Believe it or not you are not the center of the freaking world.
Here, let me fix it for you:
And then THEY will talk about Darfur.
I don’t know and I don’t care what your problem is but if stinking trash is your idea of calling someone out it is pretty pathetic. What are you, 12?
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 11:22 PM
There you go (yet) again (Making it about me. I don’t think that you can help yourself).
- Ronald Reagan
You are in error. I DID support the Iraq war just not staying Islamic Nation Building (and Koran kissing), and certainly not doing it this long, with U.S. Soldiers and U.S Marines having to serve multiple 12-15 month tours while the rest of America is out shopping and blowing smoke on the internet.
No one is suggesting that we send around 150,000 troops, or whatever, to Georgia and keep them there for ages. We have already done more than enough for Iraq. More than enough for followers of Mohammad who will likely turn on us infidels, and Israel, some day. We are doing nothing for non “Religion of Peace” Georgia, at least as can be detected so far.
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 11:23 PM
BTW, although there seems to be mixed opinions on OBL being still alive or not, I am reasonably sure that Saddam is dead. I think that his two sons are dead too. At least the last I heard anyway.
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 11:25 PM
The Democrats will pull the usual,
we are for it/now where against it
in the same breath!
canopfor on August 11, 2008 at 11:26 PM
MB4:
Well, supposedly we did a little nation building in Eastern Europe. It is called supporting democracy.
And if we had run out on Iraq the consequences would have been just as dire to the people there, the region, the world and our reputation as anything that happens in Georgia can be.
And people are already talking about how the Georgians feel about us, about whether we should send in our military and it has only been a few days since this began. The problem is with a small place like Georgia a few days is all they have.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 11:27 PM
get a grip!!
jerrytbg on August 11, 2008 at 11:29 PM
MB4:
There are Muslims in the Balkans too you know. And I am not a Muslim, I am a Christian. I don’t judge people based on their religion. I was raised that way.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 11:30 PM
USA gymnasts kicking chicom butt!
davidk on August 11, 2008 at 11:33 PM
Do you not read what I wrote? “We” have done so much for Iraq, so very much. Well, not most of us. Not you and me. “We” have done NOTHING for Georgia. Nothing! At least as far as I know, although I hope we do but I am not at this time optimistic.
Well I do. When it comes to Islam, you damn well bet I do!!!
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 11:36 PM
Oops.
davidk on August 11, 2008 at 11:40 PM
special message for our fiendly liberal freevillage:
here come the russian DOS attacks:
http://www.civil.ge/eng/
yeah, the Russians don’t resort to cyber attacks.
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 11:49 PM
I agree with you. For some reason, most folks think military action means lots of tanks, lots of planes, lots of troops. It does not. There are different levels of warfare, types of warfare, and methods of attack (kinetic and non-kinetic) to achieve various effects. In many regards, I agree with folks who say we should not act in regard to Georgia, at least on the surface. We’re much more effective when working behind the scenes than with cameramen waiting on the beaches for us.
I’d recommend Natan Sharansky’s “The Case for Democracy.” Imagine, for one second if all free nations stood against Russia, China, and any other tyrannical government. I don’t mean with weapons (though that’s always a potential eventuality), but rather by saying, “we just won’t do commerce with you, converse with you, or help you, unless you change your ways and return freedom to your people.” We have to start somewhere. This could be it.
Send_Me on August 11, 2008 at 11:50 PM
Bush couldn’t get the clap from a $2 crack whore…
BadBrad on August 11, 2008 at 11:53 PM
We certainly could send their 2,000 troops back home from Iraq, each with 3 Javelin anti-tank missles and one anti-aircraft Stinger in their luggage. Would make a huge difference against the Russian machine.
michaelo on August 11, 2008 at 11:55 PM
Am I the only one that is pissed we have done nothing?
WoosterOh on August 12, 2008 at 12:02 AM
no
jerrytbg on August 12, 2008 at 12:08 AM
Please quote me saying this.
freevillage on August 12, 2008 at 12:22 AM
I’ve been following along freevillage’s posts, and I have to say that I haven’t seen such a shill for the Russian empire since Rasputin. Despite lack of any reports of leprosy in Yuschenko’s medical records, and the impossibility of leprosy causing the skin discoloration brought on by dioxin poisoning, he drinks the kool-aid. He sees Georgia, this close friend and ally of the US, which has been working on its own independent nation approximately 1/50th the size of Russia, as some sort of terrorist nation to be quashed.
By many reports, the continued shelling and bombing of Georgia has killed thousands of innocent civilians, and Russia is preparing their final assault to move into the capital, slaughter the president and all present, slaughter a good deal many more Georgians before they even begin to settle down.
freevillage is fine with this, because he loves Mother Russia, and it can do no wrong. It’s imperialist tusks are twitching, the false red, white, and blue rag is falling off its back, and the hammer and sickle tattoo is clearly visible on its hind quarters. The Cold War is back, and it’s going to get ugly unless Bush gets serious fast, because it won’t be long before Poland, the Czech Republic, and Serbia are in Russia’s sights.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:26 AM
Oh, and freevillage, by your retorts to people’s accusations about proven activities of the Russians, you are officially one of the most intellectually dishonest people posting. I say this with all sincerity: If you like Russia, go back there. Your attitude contributes nothing, and helps people die.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:27 AM
Terrye,
Actually Russia is an amoral nation. They revere Josef Stalin to the point that the Communist Party has petitioned the Russian Orthodox Church to have him canonized as a saint.
That’s not a joke by the way.
Fortunately the country’s deathbed demographics will soon place them on the ash heap of history.
Mike Honcho on August 12, 2008 at 12:29 AM
*sigh* Please quote me saying this.
Thousands? Wow. That’s a lot of digital pictures in a country with abundance of cell phones. I’m aware of some casualties. Can you show me anything demonstrating the scale that you claim?
OK, this is simply about not being properly medicated. I will not ask for quotes. It’s ok. It’s ok.
freevillage on August 12, 2008 at 12:32 AM
Has this been put out here yet?
Saakashvili Addresses Nation
I just saw it. Maybe everyone else has already seen it.
MB4 on August 12, 2008 at 12:33 AM
Repeat: You are intellectually dishonest to a point of revulsion. You imply consistently, and cry foul because there are no exact quotes. You know what you are implying, and so does every thinking person, and claiming that we are wrong because you didn’t use those exact words is dodgy on the scale of Barack Obama.
Just say “This is not the South Ossetia I thought I knew” and get it over with.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:37 AM
Hint: if you take a pill, and drink some water and take some rest then you can come back later and ask me a question in very precise terms. Which I will respond to very precisely. Then you can quote me all you want on that very subject.
You revulsion is between you and your therapist.
freevillage on August 12, 2008 at 12:40 AM
Latest news: Russia going all the way.
2,000 dead in South Ossetia. Tbilisi is getting pounded with mortars and bombs. Get someone in there immediately to start counting the dead, and then let’s start talking war crimes. I guarantee you that this will meet criteria for ethnic cleansing/genocide.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:43 AM
Declare your opponents mentally ill, and have them put away.
Sounds like Old Mother Bear to me. You should be proud. Now go back, you Soviet insect.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:44 AM
freevillage on August 12, 2008 at 12:48 AM
Not our job to step in militarily(sp). That’s the job of Europe and Turkey. Europe needs to get up off it backside and take its responsibilities. We need to give other kinds of support.
jeanie on August 12, 2008 at 12:57 AM
Nice mantra. Can I play the “doubting sanity to win an argument” game now?
On second thought, I think I’ll stick to pointing out your disingenuous dismissal of others acknowledging your viewpoints by claiming there are no direct quotes of “I support Russia invading a sovereign nation and massacring its populace because Georgians are too free” posted by you.
Keep chanting that mantra. Eventually you’ll start saying “Putin is hope and change…doesn’t matter that he was ex-KGB, or that Russian aircraft have been violating Western military airspace…it’s all good…for the motherland.”
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 12:58 AM
Still no quotes and no direct questions as a simple method to obtain them. Bye.
freevillage on August 12, 2008 at 1:06 AM
Shouldn’t you be reporting back to your FSB contacts?
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 1:08 AM
I’m good at multitasking.
freevillage on August 12, 2008 at 1:13 AM
I wonder, what would have happened if the French said to the Colonists, “sorry, but it’s not our fight”? I wonder what Great Britain would have thought if we said to them, “sorry, but you’re over there and we’re over here. Germany’s your problem.”
These people are fighting and dying for their freedom, a freedom we helped them gain in the first place. The Georgian President said to his people: “Our future and liberty is under attack… This is war and we have losses, but the enemy has even more serious losses… We will defend our freedom, our homeland to the last drop of blood.”
I wonder this: is it fear or principle that prevents our action? If it’s fear, don’t worry. You can send me in your stead.
Send_Me on August 12, 2008 at 1:23 AM
Europe’s responsibility–. They have the money, the resources, the geography and the responsibility. They lack the backbone. Not our job to do their work for them. Time they shouldered what is rightfully theirs.
jeanie on August 12, 2008 at 1:33 AM
I got out of the military about fourty four years ago and I still don’t talk about what was classified then.
You posted the following quote:
“When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war”.
You seem to have a contradiction. I personally think that we should help Georgia, but I also think that we should fight our enemies. Just trying to see what page you are on.
Johan Klaus on August 12, 2008 at 1:46 AM
Why don’t we ask Obama’s kids on what should we do since the future of our country is dictated by them…
ZoneDaiatlas on August 12, 2008 at 1:55 AM
A little over the line, don’t you think.
Johan Klaus on August 12, 2008 at 1:58 AM
Free(oppressed)Village: QUOTE:
Sorry, my daughter just had her torso ripped apart by a rocket and I am busy picking up entrails to the body, some reason the picture just slipped my mind for documentation purposes for when I have all the time in the world to lay my case to the UN. We all know how fast they will react and I will be freed from the Russian empire by morning…right?
/sarc tag…I think?
Why does “scale” matter? To someone who has no regard to human life but statistics I suppose. Communism only killed 100 million people…let’s give it another chance.
This is how we ‘Americans’ are, someone even breathes wrong against one of us or any other innocent (but in an unideal world where we have to pick our battles due to economic scarcity of resources we have to make hard decisions on what battles to pick, can’t just throw resources to everyone…) and that is/should be an act of war. In your world of ‘relativity’ it is only mass deaths or massive numbers to show as ‘evidence’ to have some sway…? (But hey…the more dead…the shorter my breadline). Edna bulgarska pogavorka za vas.
So now your argument is falling to Islam. (The following is NOT YOUR QUOTE, just a spot on analogy of your assinine argument) “The woman was raped? Where is the proof? It’s up to her to prove it. What? You didn’t happen to document the rape with pictures? Heh. The woman is a weak liar. Let’s punish the woman for her accusations.”
I can’t continue…This will end up being my first post and last post due to being banned. Back to LGF…later freedom loving folks. Piss off liberal/communist sympathizers who have no regard for human life…only the myth of the “mother country”.
Oh no...Sand People on August 12, 2008 at 2:45 AM
If there is a war between the U.S. and Russia, then Russia has already started it.
MB4 on August 12, 2008 at 2:59 AM
Bush couldn’t get the clap from a $2 crack whore…
BadBrad on August 11, 2008 at 11:53 PM
Another 2000 election head case blurts a few spittle covered syllables.
mylegsareswollen on August 12, 2008 at 4:00 AM
As far as I’ve seen the Georgian army has retreated in good order which means they are trading space for time. We’ll see, what the next few hours hold. The Russians have to collapse the Georgian government somehow but I don’t think the Georgians will oblige them.
The initiative is still with the Russians if they don’t beg off now short of Tblisi then I think its on for real. We’re not going to allow the Russians to do this. We will respond.
elduende on August 12, 2008 at 5:23 AM
Looks like Medvedev has called a halt, for what it’s worth.
wccawa on August 12, 2008 at 6:22 AM
For the Russian apologists worth a read written day before action…
http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373294
elduende on August 12, 2008 at 6:29 AM
Yes MB4, I read what you wrote and if we had run out on Iraq before the contry was stable it would have far more disastrous to our national interests than anything happening in Georgia could ever be.
Terrye on August 12, 2008 at 6:55 AM
I am not a Russian apologist and I don’t think Glenn Reynolds from Instapundit is either. However, I do agree with the gist of what he is saying here:
Okay, I don’t like the Russian invasion of Georgia, and I very much hope that it turns out badly for Putin and his satraps. But in light of people calling for massive U.S. action, it’s worth noting that there isn’t — and never has been — very much that we can do. Look at Georgia on a map, and you’ll see that there’s no easy way to get troops in except by air even if we wanted to, and we can’t fight a war against the Russian Army with only air supply. At any rate, a shooting war with the world’s second biggest nuclear power seems bad — I don’t think we’d have done it even if Georgia had been admitted to NATO, though it’s possible that would have deterred this. If it hadn’t deterred it, though, it would have left NATO in a pretty pickle: Betray the alliance’s key purpose, or . . . start a shooting war with the world’s second biggest nuclear power, over Georgia.
Some thoughts — which I don’t necessarily agree with, but which are worth mentioning — from Jerry Pournelle:
I continue to thank God that Georgia is not yet yet a part of NATO. NATO is an entangling alliance of the sort that George Washington warned us against, and guarantees our involvement in the territorial disputes of Europe. We have no national interest in the independence of Georgia or any portion of it, and we should have no permanent alliances in Europe to begin with. We have as many good reasons to become friends with the new Russian Republic ( Empire if you like) as we do with most of the continental nations; and none of them need an American alliance. If the balance of power in Europe is out of balance, it is due to the new European nation being built there; and that certainly doesn’t need US blood and treasure to defend it.
Russia remains a major nuclear power, and that should not be forgotten. They no longer are part of a criminal conspiracy to take over the world. Their rivalry with China is great and deep, and they have a number of common interests with the United States. Going to war with Russia would be egregiously stupid.
Over at the CounterTerrorism Blog, Walid Phares says something similar.
Of course, if Russia controls the Georgian pipeline routes, it will have more leverage against Europe. But, let’s face it, Europe hasn’t been showing all that much backbone anyway. But hey, if you want decisive action, there’s always the option of making Poland a nuclear power. We can spare some nukes. It’s kinda risky, though . . . .
The thing is if we start this thing, we will have to finish it. I realize that people think we can go in there and in a day or two spank the Ruskies and send them skulking back over their border never to show their faces in easter Europe again. I doubt that it is that simple and you can not know for sure how these things will end once you begin them.
Terrye on August 12, 2008 at 6:59 AM
I just think that the idea that the US has done nothing, because we have not bombed Russian troop positions is untrue and unfair. If we start killing their people, the whole situation could escalate and the Georgians would not be any better off. They are ground zero, what they need is a cease fire and an end to the bombing.
Terrye on August 12, 2008 at 7:12 AM
Agree.
JiangxiDad on August 12, 2008 at 7:13 AM
Johan, without being specific, did you guys in the sky find the Russians to be worrisome adversaries?
Oldnuke on August 12, 2008 at 7:14 AM
Terrye on August 12, 2008 at 6:59 AM
I should have clarified that post earlier I meant to call out those last nite like freevillage who still claim that Georgia started this without provocation and therefore should be left to reap the worldwind.
elduende on August 12, 2008 at 7:30 AM
No greater enemy, no greater friend, (at this point) no greater hypocrite.
Angry Dumbo on August 12, 2008 at 8:33 AM
By the way there are over 1000 US troops standing side by side with our Georgian allies plus the over 130 Green Berets
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=56704
elduende on August 12, 2008 at 9:03 AM
You know, the real irony here is that the right is pushing the “Obama is not ready to lead” angle, and the best argument for not electing an inexperienced president is George W. Bush.
In the first days of his presidency, Bush rejected advice from the CIA to wiretap Russian President Vladimir Putin in February 2001 in Vienna, where he was staying in a hotel where the CIA had a listening device planted in the wall of the presidential suite, in need only of a battery change. The CIA said that if the surveillance were discovered, Putin’s respect for Bush would be heightened.
But Condoleezza Rice, Bush’s national security adviser, advised that it was “too risky, it might be discovered,” Suskind writes. Bush decided against if as “a gut decision” based on what he thought was a friendship based on several conversations, including during the presidential campaign. The CIA had warned him that Putin “was a trained KGB agent … [who] wants you to think he’s your friend.”
I hate “gut” decisions. They’re made by people who don’t know what their doing. Instead of thinking things through, they rely on some intangible thing to make their decision for them.
Bush thought he could read Putin. It would be funny if, you know, it wasn’t our foreign policy he was bungling.
Tom_Shipley on August 12, 2008 at 9:04 AM
“Okay Pooty Poot: y’all get Georgia and we get Iran? Works fer me, heh heh heh.”
Akzed on August 12, 2008 at 9:32 AM
Sure. Best to just let the UN handle it like The One suggests. He has thought it through with that crisp focus learned at the knees of Saul Alinsky and Bill Ayers.
a capella on August 12, 2008 at 9:32 AM
BadBrad on August 12, 2008 at 9:33 AM
how about we give Georgia come air cover. A few patriot batteries, bunch of stingers, and some fighter jets flown by “advisers”… kinda like what russia did for N. Korea during the Korean war (funny how in all the radio intercepts from the N. Korean planes, the pilots were speaking Russian…hmmmm?)
You, and Glenn Renolds think this is an “all or nothing” deal. This is not a choice between a. flush Georgia and b. nuclear war. Some of you need to go watch the interview the president of Georgia did on the Glenn Beck show in March or May… if there ever was a European country to back, this is it. Now they hate our guts because we abandoned them. Next: Taiwan…
BadBrad on August 12, 2008 at 9:42 AM
next is israel….
right4life on August 12, 2008 at 10:49 AM
Next is Ukraine.
wccawa on August 12, 2008 at 11:16 AM
And then possibly Poland. Russia “warned” Poland for daring to speak out against Russia’s actions. You know what that means.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Poland is a NATO member. I doubt Putin would risk that.
Oldnuke on August 12, 2008 at 11:33 AM
looks like everyone agrees the US has become a paper tiger, and IRAN knows this too…
right4life on August 12, 2008 at 11:38 AM
Georgia was a NATO member ally. It’s the next step.
MadisonConservative on August 12, 2008 at 11:49 AM
I thought Georgia had requested membership, sponsored by the U.S. but was put on hold by the rest of the NATO members. Thus not a member. Same for Ukraine. Neither Georgia or Ukraine is listed on the NATO site as members. Poland is.
Oldnuke on August 12, 2008 at 11:56 AM
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