Bush: Russians looking to depose Georgian government; Update: Video added
posted at 5:49 pm on August 11, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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President George Bush finally let Russia have it with both barrels this afternoon, at least in diplomatic terms. In a terse and angry statement after his return from the Beijing Olympics, Bush accused Moscow of reneging on its commitment to proportionate response and said that “intelligence” indicated that Vladimir Putin might depose the freely-elected government in Tbilisi. He also warned Russia that it risks relationships with the US and Europe and its standing in the world:
In a Rose Garden statement Monday, Bush said there appeared to be an attempt by Russia to unseat Georgia’s pro-Western president, Mikhail Saakashvili.
He demanded an immediate cease-fire, the withdrawal of Russian troops from the conflict zone and a return to the status quo as of Aug. 6.
Bush appears to have become angered at Russian double-dealing. His statement suggests that Putin told him something very different than what has become obvious over the last 24 hours: the Russians want to take Georgia by force. This statement offers the strongest indication yet that the US may start taking a more active role in assisting Georgia in resisting the Russian invasion. It was the kind of firm, unmistakable signal that we should have sent in the conflict’s opening hours.
I’ll look for the video and post it ASAP.
Update: Still looking for video, but the West sent a very strong signal to Putin today. The G-8 met on a conference call — or should I say the G-7?
Rice and the foreign ministers of Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan spoke in a conference call, during which they noted that Georgia had agreed to a cease-fire and wanted to see Russia sign on immediately, he said, adding that the call was one of more than 90 that Rice has made on the matter since Friday. …
The Group of Seven, or G7, is often expanded into what is known as the G8, a grouping that includes Russia, but Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov was notably not included in the call.
McCain has long called for the G-8 to expel Russia. This snub indicates that the members may decide to trim their membership, and with it some economic benefits for Moscow.
Update II: MS-NBC has the first embeddable video of the speech:
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freevillage:
Oh spare me. I did not call them an amoral nation. They just do not have a history of giving up easily. Ask Napoleon.
But maybe you could spare a little of your moral superiority for the people they are killing right now.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:00 PM
Besides liberals like free village will not care about the people in Georgia anymore than they cared about the people in Chechnya or the 35 million dead in the Gulags or the 9 million dead in Ukraine. Their moral outrage is very selective.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:03 PM
davidk on August 11, 2008 at 9:03 PM
We need to mobilize all of our anti-war protesters STAT!
We could ship them to Georgia under the leadership of Sean Penn and Cindy Sh/thead.
Russia would listen to their Comrads and stand down.
TheSitRep on August 11, 2008 at 9:04 PM
Oh yeah, they need to burn some Russian flags.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:05 PM
*sigh*
Good moooooorning, ladies and gentlemen. This is the day two of our game. No winners yesterday. Today’s question:
How come is the guy’s helmet so blue?
freevillage on August 11, 2008 at 9:05 PM
Maybe not, but being a nuclear power has nothing to do with it. We did fight Russian troops during the cold war after all. This would be similar in that we wouldn’t be having a proper fight with russia but supporting another nation fighting them and their lackeys.
Not all nukes are delivered by ICBMs. I’d imagine most of them were on planes and submarines. Neither of those would get anywhere near the US.
But Russia is willing to take nuclear annihilation to save South Ossetia from Georgia? I’m sorry but this whole discussion is ridiculous. Russia will NOT start a nuclear war over South Ossetia. Nukes are deterrants against other nuclear powers. That’s it.
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Even now I’m sure Obama is trying to find the most eloquent words to justify our turning our backs on Georgia.
Maxx on August 11, 2008 at 9:09 PM
We need to mobilize all of our ant-war protests STAT!
TheSitRep on Aug 11,2008 at 9:04PM.
TheSitRep:Outstanding idea!haha
BTW,Freevillage,its getting late,shouldn’t
you be at the protest ASAP!!
canopfor on August 11, 2008 at 9:11 PM
Darth:
When did we fight Russian troops? There might have been advisers in North Korea and Viet Nam, but when did we actually send our planes to bomb Russian troops on the ground?
And if Russia is willing to risk a fight with the US then obviously they are willing to risk a nuclear confrontation. And it seems they are.
I think that there might be all sorts of veiled and not so veiled threats going back and forth across back channels right now. This is a sort of stand off in a way, but the Georgians do not have much time for any big military response.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:11 PM
I think 35 millions dead in the Gulag doesn’t sound that impressive. I think it’s much better to accuse me of not caring about 335 billion dead. That’s pretty impressive.
freevillage on August 11, 2008 at 9:13 PM
Where the hell were we?
We should have preempted this.
Maybe we have gotten used to fighting those puzzie Islamofascist and don’t have the cajones to fight real people.
If you wont stick up for your allies then you are nothing and effete.
Are we done or have we been undone?
TheSitRep on August 11, 2008 at 9:16 PM
I’m sorry.
Do you realize how powerful the Turkish military is? It’s probably second only to the United States. If Russia tried anything smart with them the Turks would be more than happy to pay for their casket and one-way trip to the grave. The more likely reason for opposition would be that it might cause them some diplomatic difficulties, something that can be overcome with a decent bribe.
They didn’t nuke Afghanistan when we interfered there and helped drive them out. I agree that they’re not peaceful people. They’re violent, dumb (a recent side-effect of communist policy of killing intellectuals who got too smart for their own good) and predisposed to severe alcoholism.
But their government isn’t stupid or insane. They won’t use nukes and they won’t break their entire army in Georgia. If we beat them now they’ll slither back to Moscow and wait a while before they try again (preferably with some Dhimmi Carter in power)
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 9:17 PM
freevillage:
Whatever.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:18 PM
Exactly.
freevillage on August 11, 2008 at 9:19 PM
WTF?
wccawa on August 11, 2008 at 9:20 PM
OK, what’s wrong now?
freevillage on August 11, 2008 at 9:21 PM
Just remember to hold that cage bar tight before you super-elevate and lead…
Et tu Brute on August 11, 2008 at 9:21 PM
Darth:
No they did not nuke Afghanistan, why bother?
You see this is my point: You are acting as if the Russians are on a lark here and if we just make it kinda hard they will pack up and go back to Russia. They obviously planned this well in advance. They obviously did so without the Georgians being any the wiser. They know how big the Turkish army is and they obviously do not care. They know how technologically advanced we are and they obviously do not care. They know that we can send in air power and blow up their tanks, and they obviously do not care.
I am not saying we should stand by and do nothing, but I just don’t think a military response is likely, not now.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:22 PM
We have a MORAL DUTY to support Georgia not just a strategic interest. To suggest that we leave the Georgians to face the bear alone is sniveling and dishonorable. WE ARE NOT A NATION OF COWARDS DON”T ACT LIKE IT!
Stop the hand-wringing; this is the price we pay for the country we live in. When you put gas into your car or heat your home this winter remember it is because of the regulatory and environmental policies and punitive litigation that we have due mainly to leftists that the energy markets are the way they are.
This situation can be managed in our favor; there are economic, diplomatic, and military levers we can use to resolve this crisis short of war but we need the resolve to do it;
Diplomatically and Economically;
We need to force the Russians to Veto a condemnation resolution in the UNSC. Then we can proceed to isolate them diplomatically. we can convene every forum that exists to issue condemnations and offers of assistance. We can dissolve the G8 and exclude the Russians from it. We can have the Russian request to be admitted into the WTO rejected. We can convene NATO and OSCE to Censure Russia and offer both military and Humanitarian aid to Georgia.
We need to announce immediate deployment of anti-missle defenses to the Czech Republic, Poland, Latvia, and Ukraine.
Militarily;
We have a great opportunity to bleed the Russians here folks. The Georgians are no pushovers; It took 3 wars for the Bear to crush Chechnya and the Chechens had no outside help. With our help we can turn Tblisi into a meatgrinder a Russian graveyard.
What we need to do is immediately reinforce our SPECWAR and Special Forces people on the ground (they can come in overland from Turkey). Resupply the Georgians with both anti-tank (JAVELINS and DRAGONS) and short range anti-air weapons (STINGERS.)as well as deploy Naval assets (DDGs AEGIS Destroyers)into the Eastern Black Sea from the Eastern Med immediately they could be there by the end of the week to bolster Georgian airspace. We can also stage our efforts out of Incirlik in Turkey.
Then its up to the Russians to decide if they want a war with the United States by firing on our ships.
Buck up people this is serious but not a lost cause;
oh and before some sniveling turd tries to cover up their own cowardice by impugning me (by calling me a chicken hawk or some other cowards argument) I wore the uniform of a Naval Officer and would do so in a heartbeat if called upon to do it.
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 9:23 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War
Both list USSR casualties. Not too many but we did kill Russian troops.
That doesn’t actually follow. They know there’s no way in hell we’ll nuke them over this. We didn’t nuke Saddam when he invaded Kuwait, why would we do it against someone with the potential to nuke back?
I think the Georgians were caught off-guard by the Russian response. I’m guessing they’ll slow them down enough to buy Bush some time.
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 9:23 PM
We, as Americans, sure do talk a lot. I see not much has changed. We often react when approached with the cries of our allies or freedom-seeking dissidents with words accompanied with no action or with words accompanied with a half-effort.
We had the Bolshevik Revolution in Russian- minimal American presence of 5,000 men, only committed after Czar deposed; Communists win.
Korean War- fought with half-effort, never meaning to win. North Korea lost. American troops still remain in S. Korea.
Berlin Wall- we watched idly while the Soviets built this wall in contravention to signed treaties; the beginning of the spread of the Iron Curtain.
Bay of Pigs- we promised dissidents we’d help. Trained Cuban exiles, then abandoned them to die.
Cuban Missile Crisis- lost missiles in Turkey, promised we’d never depose Castro.
Vietnam- fought with half-effort, never meaning to win. Communists won. Dissidents slaughtered.
Iranian Revolution- promised Shah we would help, but did not. Iranians more trouble now than ever.
Lebanon- came to the half-hearted aid of Lebanon against the PLO, and left promptly after the barracks bombing, leaving Lebanon, an ally, to be effectively taken over by Iranian surrogates.
Afghanistan 1- aided Afghans by helping kick out the Soviets, but left before the job was complete.
Persian Gulf War- liberated Kuwait, but alienated the Kurds and southern Iraqis, which provided many obstacles in the beginning of the OIF.
Somalia- sought to help the Somali people, but left promptly after Operation Gothic Serpent.
OIF- failure to engage Iran, who is actively killing Americans in Iraq.
We, as Americans, pride ourselves for standing up for our allies and “the little guy,” but really, do we? It continues to amaze me that dissidents around the world are willing to expose themselves to their (and our) enemies and ask for our help. Such remarkable and arguably irrational hope for freedom must be answered by our aid. If nothing else, we owe it to ourselves to do so. But we won’t, and the Georgians will die.
Send_Me on August 11, 2008 at 9:24 PM
Darth:
Going after the Russian army is different and you know it. This is not Viet Nam or North Korea. I know there was some back and forth there, but a closer example would be North Korea and the thousands of Chinese soldiers our men faced there. Look at how bad that got.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:26 PM
Why bother now?
Can and do are two different things. They may not:
A) Think we have the spine to react.
B) Think we have the ability to react with Iraq and Afghanistan on our hands.
I think it’s a bluff, for reasons outlined in previous posts.
TBH I don’t know what’s likely. I do know what should happen: confront them.
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 9:27 PM
U.S. troops still in Georgia
BDU-33 on August 11, 2008 at 9:27 PM
elduende:
No one is saying we should abandon those people. I think we should do everything we can diplomatically and economically and it might even be that the time will come when more will have to be done.
I just do not think that the American people want another shooting war right now. It could happen though.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:28 PM
Darth:
We did not sent troops into Afghanistan to fight the Russians. We did not launch air attacks from Pakistan on their ground troops. So of course they did not use nukes against us.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:29 PM
I remember when Russia invaded Czechoslovakia the summer of 1968. We did nothing.
I’ve read many of the comments here–most of it just flames. We have no consensus.
I have no idea what we should do. And I’m not sure I’ve read anything here that approaches a credible plan.
What is really scary, we have Harry “The Georgian war is lost” Reid and Nancy “Read my book now” Pelosi to contned with.
I do know one thing. We cannot sit by and let Russia form USSR II, at the expense of our allies.
And we cannot let this turn into Cold War II.
People have mentioned how the American “get ‘er done” attitude carried us through tough time before. We can do it now. If not for ourselves, then for our friends.
Mr. President, step up to the plate and do what needs to be done.
Whatever emergency efforts at your disposal, Mr. President, use them. Don’t let those who would destroy our country and the freedoms we cherish hold the United States back from doing the right thing.
Release the oil companies to drill where there is oil. (What is more important, polar bears or people who face enslavement by communist dictators?)
Put the factories in full production to build the necessary military weaponry needed to stop Putin’s mad march.
I hate the draft. (My lottery number was 63.) But if we need more personnel, do it.
If we need to ration, so be it. We Americans as a whole have gotten soft. This is (should be) war. Suck it up.
davidk on August 11, 2008 at 9:30 PM
Darth:
You act as if it were a trip to the grocery store. Nothing is that simple, things get complicated.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:31 PM
I don’t think it’s that different. US was responsible for soviet deaths and vice-versa. They both knew they were responsible for each other’s problems even if they didn’t publicly announce “hey american pigs, how’s vietcong ass taste?” or “hey communist scum, are mujahideen explosives cooked to your satisfaction?”
And again, unlike Korea we’re not on equal terms. Our army is nearly invincible compared to theirs. If we aid Georgia and it gets bad, it only gets bad for Russia’s side.
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 9:31 PM
Amen. What is so hard to see here?
wccawa on August 11, 2008 at 9:33 PM
And if we had they still would not have used them. We’ve been going back and forth for a while and you have yet to explain why Russia would commit nuclear suicide over georgia. They’re evil, not crazy.
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 9:33 PM
Send_Me:
The USA is not perfect and we do not fight all the battles everywhere in the world, even though it feels like that sometimes. But we have fed, clothed, sheltered, given medical care to and liberated more people than any country in history. So yes, we do stand up for the little guy.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:33 PM
I think you’re right. The Turks are not going to be pleased with this and the last I recall, we are on fairly good terms with the Turks. No doubt they are more reliable for us than say…. France, which isn’t saying much. But if the Turks came on board with the Brits, Poland and maybe a Euro state or two, Ivan could be pushed back and given a black eye. No doubt the Georgians would fight with whatever they had.
Maxx on August 11, 2008 at 9:36 PM
Darth:
Why would they commit nuclear suicide? You have as of yet neglected to explain why they were ready to commit it for any reason…is there some reason that makes nuclear war a reasonable reaction? Would all of Europe be worth it?
I am saying that if we start killing each other things could get out of hand. And if the Russians can be so easily deterred why did they sacrifice a million men in Afghanistan?
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:36 PM
“One death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic.” ~ ~ Joseph Stalin
freevillage, you’re so showing your ‘colors’. It’s as if I’d back Nicolae Ceauşescu’s son in some gruesome action, in the name of nationalism.
Entelechy on August 11, 2008 at 9:37 PM
Or rather that should be why did the Russians sacrifice thousands of men in Afghanistan and kill a million people?
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:37 PM
Maxx:
I don’t see it happening. The Europeans do not care about Georgia and neither do the Turks.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:38 PM
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:28 PM
Bro you are absolutely right no one wants war but sometimes events don’t give us the luxury to decide otherwise. A military response is essential to save Georgia. The problem is that this is an overt military move on our national security interests, diplomatic pressure and economic pressure are not going to stop the Russians without the military instrument.
Armed suasion is essential here or we won’t be able to save the Georgians. If the Russians don’t want a shooting war with us they need to understand that they have to stop.
I don’t think the Russians want a war with us, if they did they would have shot down those flights from Iraq carrying the battle hardened Georgian troops we brought home.
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 9:39 PM
335 billion? What the hell are you smoking?
wccawa on August 11, 2008 at 9:39 PM
I am not a “Dude”, being past the age of 18.
Yes. Hello, pretty much everything is “hypothetical” at this time for people on the internet in the U.S., unless one of you is President Bush or SecDef Gates or Validmir Putin. I take it from your response that you do indeed know the answer to my. “I think we all know the answer, don’t we?”, but you just want to cover your eyes. I certainly am aware that “a country that is our ally is about to be overrun. Perhaps with hours. People are dying. Our credibility is dying along with them” and that’s why I want Bush to stop yakking and act, and maybe he is and we just don’t know it yet. Don’t you want him to act? Don’t you want him to be a Churchill and not a Chamberlain?
Snark is an adolescent term, or maybe twenties something, being from an older generation I prefer sarcasm or satire and I thought that I, on this thread and the other, posed some serious questions. I haven’t actually done much “snark” as you put it on this thread. Posing the question of is Bush going to be a Churchill or a Chamberlain is not “snark”. It is serious to the people of Georgia in particular. BTW, I don’t think that they much like us right now.
I said I was going to be away for a while and am I suppose to respond to everybody? . Let me recomment what I did on the other thread as it kind of “sums it up” in plain English -
Do you now want me to name the individual units that would be involved? The TOE or whatever it was or whatever they call it these days. Their take off and arrival times. Flight paths? Battle plans? Contingency plans? I doubt very much that Bush could do that or even come ANYWHERE close.
This is getting very tiresome, responding to prosecutorial type questioning, particularly when some folks then say that I am trying to make a thread “all about me” when I do respond to them. Also, I type with only one to two fingers so it takes a lot of time and is getting very old.
Can we get back to the regularly scheduled programing now like I said before?
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Actually, the whole thing seems to come down to this:
Do we cut and run?
Or do we fight?
Notwithstanding my preference, does anyone see it differently?
wccawa on August 11, 2008 at 9:41 PM
To avoid losing face. But they did anyway and didn’t nuke anyone. Their empire COLLAPSED. That’s gotta lose them some face. They still didn’t nuke anyone. And sacrificing a bunch of men they don’t care about is quite different from destroying themselves and everything they have.
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 9:42 PM
is that big blank spot on the page supposed to be video?
Kaptain Amerika on August 11, 2008 at 9:42 PM
Your commenting style is akin to bashing open the door, throwing in the grenade and ducking.
If you seem to fighting multiple fronts, that JUST might be why.
wccawa on August 11, 2008 at 9:44 PM
elduende:
I am a woman. No dude here. And I do not think that the American people would support a military action. We went through Iraq and are still in Afghanistan. People acted as if Iraq were WW1, WW2 and the Civil War all rolled into one. The angst, the paranoia, the hatred, the silliness that has permeated American political discourse these last couple of years has made it impossible for us to do anything that involves the military without it turning into a circus.
I just do not see that happening. I could be wrong, I have been wrong lots of times. but I don’t think we will fight the Russians face to face. That does not mean we will do nothing however.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:45 PM
wccawa on August 11, 2008 at 9:41 PM
We Fight now!
or we fight later with less credibility, less allies, and less oil!
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 9:46 PM
Yep, pretty good one too.
Maxx on August 11, 2008 at 9:46 PM
What’s the matter wccawa? He’s only off by roughly 329 billion. I thought the Russians were good mathematicians. In fact, I still think so, this one being an exception which strengthens the rule.
Entelechy on August 11, 2008 at 9:47 PM
Darth:
So, since the Russians did not nuke anyone then, they will not nuke anyone now and we should just pretend the nukes do not exist?
Even if they do not nuke us, it will be another war, far away. Do you really think the American people are even remotely interested in something like that?
I think people will support our government supporting the Georgians. I even think they might support our special forces helping them. But I do not think that people will support our launching air strikes against Russian troops. I just do not see it happening. I am not sure Bush could get support to even do it.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:48 PM
YA HYA CHOUDA! *fires weirding module*
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 9:50 PM
You might be right, but the way this is going, I don’t think we have a choice. Do we back down and invite the same fate for other former republics? When does Russia stop their push to take over their neighbors?
All of Russia’s harping over our missile defense shield being provocative like the cold war sure seems like empty rhetoric designed to keep us weak. We should be fast tracking NATO membership to all former Russian countries that seek it before it’s too late. Fast tracking Ukraine seems like a good first step. And while we’re at it–fast tracking NATO membership for Georgia would be good if the country lasts long enough to accomplish that.
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 9:50 PM
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:45 PM
My lady, please accept my most humble apologies for confusing your gender. I am sorry.
I think this situation is ugly enough for even our Left to understand. Don’t think Iraq, think 9/11 in its implications.
Which is why this crisis is just starting.
By the way we already have troops in Georgia and I have absolutely no doubt they are engaged in combat as we speak.
I really am sorry about the mix up. my bad.
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 9:51 PM
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 9:50 PM
Moa’dib is my middle name Harkonnen!
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 9:52 PM
We can never count on the Euro’s for much but take a look at the map and you might see why the Turks might stand for Georgia. No doubt, the Turks had rather border with Georgia than with the Russians.
Maxx on August 11, 2008 at 9:53 PM
We are sitting here talking on the internet. It is easy for us to say that we have to fight now. I grew up waiting for a war with the Russians. When I was a little girl I had nightmares about nuclear war. I can remember my father sandbagging the storm cellar during the Cuban Missile crisis. We lived about 8 miles from Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma and my folks were getting ready for an attack.
I do not think most Americans are interested in another cold war.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:54 PM
No. Since the Russians have displayed a very high level of restaint when it comes to the use of nukes, since it is ridiculously unreasonable for them to nuke over a couple of useless crap provinces, and since they’ll be the ones suffering total annihilation while the rest would survive (and win by default), it is
reasonableguaranteed they would not use nukes.It would not be a war, it would be a slaughter. The US Airforce and Navy would pulverize anything resembling a ruski that goes anywhere near Georgia. I have no idea what the American people would do. They’d be opposed to a full scale occupation of Georgia, probably, but that’s not near being required. I would hope, however, that they would not oppose Navy and Airforce operations in the area.
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 9:55 PM
I think that by that time Pooty Poot will have possession is 9/10 and probably 99/100 of the law and the people of Georgia will hate us by then more than they probably do already. Remember to them the last couple of days probably seems like a couple of weeks, at least, and at least as far as they know, and as far as I know, we have done nothing but yak.
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 9:55 PM
As much as I don’t want this to be true, I’m afraid we have to view Russia’s intent to be no different than Germany’s before the onset of WWII. I know how stale it sounds to compare each new military situation to Hitler’s Germany, but in terms of expansionism, this is is a closer fit to that comparison than any war we’ve fought since WWII/Cold War. It is clear from Russia’s previous meddling in their neighboring countries’ affairs that this does not stop with Georgia. Allowing Russia to get away with this opens the door to a much wider conflict.
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 9:55 PM
Maxx:
Georgia was part of the Soviet Union for decades. The Turks bordered with them then and lived to tell about it. I think they might be willing to do economic or diplomatic pressure, but risk any kind of military response from Russia? I dunno, but so far they have been pretty damn quiet about the whole thing. Bush has had a lot more to say about than the Turks have.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:56 PM
ellduende:
N apology is necessary. Our left wears Che Guevara Tshirts, they could care less about Russia and Georgia. In fact many of them think that Russia is liberating South Ossetia.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:57 PM
Darth:
It would not be a war, you say, it would be a slaughter. Sounds pretty cocky to me. It seems a little too cocky in fact. Besides, what makes you think that people want a slaughter?
I mean really, no one is addressing this fact: Do the American people want our military involved in this situation? And does that matter?
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:01 PM
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 9:55 PM
Agreed if we let them get away with this without any pain they will be able to intimidate any of the former Soviet republics without firing a shot ever again.
They need to feel pain for their actions.
BTW the Russians gave the Saddam Fedeyeen KORNET anti tank missles in order to destroy our tanks right before the Iraq war. Up until then nothing anyone ever had could penetrate the armor of our M1s, the Kornets worked.
I think its time for some payback!
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 10:02 PM
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 10:03 PM
And you say an occupation will not be required. We have had 37,000 men sitting on the DMZ for as long as I can remember. The fact that the North Koreans are no match for us does not mean that we can leave.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:04 PM
There’s always time to hug half-naked women. Always.
Frozen Tex on August 11, 2008 at 10:04 PM
You really are a contemptible fellow, aren’t you?
wccawa on August 11, 2008 at 10:05 PM
Georgia is a democracy loving nation that has backed us in Iraq and Kosovo… if we fail to support them now… who will dare ally themselves with us in the future. at least we should give them some Anti-aircraft support or use our airforce to level the playing field (like Russia did for N. Korea). If we put some “peacekeeper” boots on the ground what are they going to do start killing US soldiers? Screw Russia… what are they going to do… nuke us?
The truth is, we will make noise, but noone will help. Nooone from the old eastern block will ever dare cross russia again. we should be ashamed of ourselves. This is just as bad as what we did to hungary after WWII. I say this as a career soldier knowing what war is and the costs. But what good is freedom and democracy if you fail to defend it?
BadBrad on August 11, 2008 at 10:05 PM
elduende:
They might very well get away with it. It will not be the first time.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:06 PM
Putin’s demand for a change in leadership dictates we forego the diplospeak and act…
Letting them carve up the country was one thing but…this…no.
jerrytbg on August 11, 2008 at 10:07 PM
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 9:57 PM
thank you for your forebearance.
It is amazing the level of disinformation our people fall for. Both from the Russians and our leftists and also i might add from the Neo-isolationist movement.
Russia’s invasion is akin to Iraq invading Kuwait and I don’t remember the level of angst in responding then. I blame it on our educational system and war fatigue but really what fatigue is there? There is a joke in the Marine Corps;
The USMC is at war while America is at the mall.
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 10:08 PM
BadBrad:
I agree that we should help Georgia. They have been an ally. We actually sent their troops back and the Russians even bitched about that.
But it might be that we will have to do something other than a direct military confrontation. But who knows, if the Russians keep pushing forward, they might push too far. And we will have some support to do something.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:09 PM
I probably respond to more people more often, and sometimes at great length, than just about anyone else so I don’t see how I am ducking. See now you are trying, and others have done it MUCH more, so I’m not “picking” on you, to make this thread “all about me” and then I get blamed for it. Tiresome.
Why not just respond to what someone has said with counter points? That would be much more efficient for others and certainly for me.
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 10:09 PM
It’s not cocky. On the contrary, I’m the voice of moderation when it comes to people overestimating the US military’s capabilities. But in this case it’s the plain truth. Russia’s military sucks.
Want and need are two different things. The slaughter is completely dependant on the choice Russia makes.
1. We don’t have a psychic link to every American’s brain.
2. Did it matter on Iraq when public opinion turned against it?
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 10:10 PM
Wonder if the Euros will go along with a tougher standpoint. They seem content to let themselves be bullied by Russia. France and Germany blocked Georgia’s NATO membership out of deference to Russian concerns. That turned out to be a great ideam didn’t it.
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 10:12 PM
I have. Many times.
And I will. You can count on it.
wccawa on August 11, 2008 at 10:12 PM
War cannot be avoided; it can only be postponed to the other’s advantage.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 10:13 PM
I can see that you were ready this time…LOL!
jerrytbg on August 11, 2008 at 10:14 PM
That’s the rub. He doesn’t have a solution.
Only criticism.
So tell us, freevillage, how’s your boy Ron Paul doing in the polls?
Or is it Bob “The Man” Barr now?
Does he have the solutions you don’t have?
Et tu Brute on August 11, 2008 at 10:15 PM
elduende:
I think it is the political season that complicates the issue. I also think our history with Russia {aka the Soviet Union} also makes people jittery, fearful of a confrontation with a nuclear power. Add to that the fact that this is Europe, yet again. We have troops in Europe and in Iraq. We have air bases in the region as well. We have our Navy there too. The potential for destruction is overwhelming.
I am not sure what will happen. It is not in our interests to see the Russians get away with something like this. And I feel terrible for the people who live there as well. However, I think it is a very touchy situation here in the US.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:16 PM
Oh good gravy, grow up and stop being so hateful and whiny and vacuous.
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 10:16 PM
Darth:
Russia’s military may suck, but they are doing a pretty good job of reeking havoc in Georgia right now. And I still do not think that slaughtering Russian ground troops is something most Americans will support.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:19 PM
A fool. That’s probably about it.
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 10:21 PM
And as far as Iraq was concerned, when we went into Iraq 70% of the country supported it. If there had not been strong support in the outset we probably would not have gone. Bush would not have gotten the vote from Congress. So yes, it makes a difference what people think. They do not want to see a little country like Georgia run over either, so I think there will be support for helping the Georgians. I just do not know how far people will want to go.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:22 PM
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 10:12 PM
The feckless euros. I’d be surprised if the Euros did anything other than talk. The Russians control the natural gas that heats Western Europe they’re not going to risk angering the Bear.
The way the western euros have acted is actually pretty pathetic. the Russians have turned off the gas to the Ukrainians and other Eastern European countries in a n effort to punish and destabilize them for siding with us and it has not worked because they feel we won’t let them go down. The irony is that the western euros have been intimidated where the eastern euros have not.
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 10:22 PM
Trust but verify.
- Ronald Reagan
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 10:23 PM
I’m always ready, sometimes I’m just more ready than other times. :)
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 10:24 PM
MB4 gets sadder all the time.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:25 PM
One of my favorite machiavelli quotes…
BadBrad on August 11, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:22 PM
I don’t know Terrye I think public opinion is important but if the shooting does not stop public opinion is going to have to change.
This has enormous implications for our country and both political parties know this (I hope).
When the consequences of this invasion becomes apparent and WE feel the pain, the political party that failed to mobilize public opinion or actually sabotaged our efforts to respond will pay a steep price.
The irony is that the Russians have gamed this situation and have taken their actions because they feel we will be paralyzed from responding not because it is militarily impossible but because our public is afraid.
elduende on August 11, 2008 at 10:30 PM
It really is a sad state of affairs where the Euros rant about the evil US while ignoring the behavior of Russia.
I think McCain’s suggestion about kicking Russia out of the G8 would be a good start. Getting Ukraine into NATO would really tick off the Ruskies. And better yet, opening a US base there would send them into a tizzie while allowing us to better secure energy resources out of the Black sea. We can just scale back the US presence in Germany and other western European countries to lessen our costs.
BryanS on August 11, 2008 at 10:31 PM
You’ve already forgotten that grand day of May 10,2005 when Bush stood in Freedom Square and the Georgians cheered their heads off. They loved the idea of being America’s friend and they loved our president. You forget too quickly.
It takes a little time to bring forces to bear, things don’t happen in a snap.
Maxx on August 11, 2008 at 10:31 PM
Some of us have done more with our lives than sit around arguing with other blog commenters. Still others have people whom we love who are doing more than talking right this very second and who would be set to engage in prospective wars discussed.
However, I’ll stay off of my moral high-horse if others will stay off of theirs. People are capable of talking and acting also.
baldilocks on August 11, 2008 at 10:32 PM
Forget Europe, we have AMERICANS doing that. THAT’s a real sad state of affairs.
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 10:32 PM
Georgia uses old junk like Russia and they’re severely outnumbered. Even so they claimed to have shot down a bunch of Russian aircraft. I think they got taken by surprise with the amount of army Russia mobilized. Once they recover from the shock they should be able to hold them off better.
Why not? Most Americans aren’t particularly fond of Russia.
Darth Executor on August 11, 2008 at 10:37 PM
I apologize for not being more clear. I meant that our leaders do a great deal of talking (as in Bush’s statements against Russia’s actions, Clinton’s talking against Saddam or during the Bosnia conflict…) Bloggers, and citizens in general, must talk about this, and often.
Send_Me on August 11, 2008 at 10:38 PM
Darth:
I don’t think that most Americans are saying we should do nothing. We have American military advisers in Georgia right now. I am sure more is going on in that regard than we know.
We can kick Russia out of the G8. We can keep them out of the World Trade Organization. We can try to keep them out of the EU.
And it might happen that we will end up fighting them in Georgia. But I just do not think that most Americans are in any mood for another foreign war right now. I think they are tired of feeling like the world’s policeman. The only thing that will change that will be Georgia’s support of the United States. That means we owe them something.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:39 PM
Darth:
You do not have to be fond of people to not want to slaughter them.
Terrye on August 11, 2008 at 10:42 PM
This is all getting very tiresome, not to mention repetitious and vacuous and extraneous. Sad? Well at least that is not as bad as contemptible I suppose. I am not sad. Why do you have so much hate? You should stop hating so much. It’s not good for your health. Why do some of you have to engage in so much name-calling and ad hominem attacks anyway?
“That’s what you resort to when you’re losing the debate — name-calling and ad hominem attacks.”
- Michelle Malkin
Can we get off the subject of me and back to our regularly schedule programing now, children? Aren’t we trying to save Georgia?
MB4 on August 11, 2008 at 10:42 PM
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