Russians bomb Georgian city
posted at 11:40 am on August 9, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Wouldn’t this constitute a war crime, if deliberate? The Russians dropped bombs on the city of Gori today, killing civilians, while announcing that they had taken the capital of South Ossetia back from Georgia. Meanwhile, the US struggles to find a response that will contain the aggression and hostilities, but Georgia has war on its mind:
Russian air attacks over northern Georgia intensified on Saturday morning, striking two apartment buildings in the city of Gori and clogging roads out of the area with fleeing refugees.
Russian authorities said their forces had retaken the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, from Georgian control during the morning hours. They reported that 15 Russian peacekeepers and 1,500 civilians have been killed in the conflict.
Georgian forces shot down 10 Russian combat planes over the last two days, according to Alexander Lomaya, secretary of the Georgian National Security Council.
Shota Utiashvili, an official at the Georgian Interior Ministry, called the attack on Gori a “major escalation,” and said he expected attacks to increase over the course of Saturday. He said some 16 Russian planes were in the air over Georgian territory at any given time on Saturday, four times the number of sorties seen Friday.
The US received howls of criticism for its targeted strikes on insurgents who deliberately hid among civilians in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Even Barack Obama criticized American tactics in the latter, saying that all we were doing was “air raiding villages and killing civilians”. Israel got the same criticism during its war with Hezbollah, which also hid among civilians.
So when will we hear criticism from Obama, MoveOn, and the rest of the critics over these tactics by Russia? Georgia is fielding a uniformed army, clearly identifiable and operating under command of the state. Why does Russia need to bomb civilian centers under these conditions?
The US, meanwhile, has tried talking with both sides, but unsurprisingly have not gotten far with either. Georgia claims that Russia started the war by supporting the separatist attacks and then escalated with their own attacks on Georgia proper; Russia claims that they are only fulfilling their role as peacekeepers and would stop if Georgia withdraws from South Ossetia. The Russians claim that the US got taken aback by Georgia’s actions, praising our efforts to defuse the crisis but noting that those efforts proved fruitless.
We need to get both sides to stop fighting long enough to come back to the table. Clearly, the Russian involvement in South Ossetia and Abkhazia has proven too much of a provocation for peace to return in the long term. John McCain’s idea of a foreign force might be a better plan, if we can negotiate that with Russia and Georgia. However, with our support of Kosovo’s independence, we had better be prepared for Russian support of independence for these two states, a complication I warned about in March. We set the precedent, and the Russians followed suit.
Update: Here’s the video of Obama ripping American tactics in Afghanistan:
I await with bated breath his swift and merciless condemnation of Russian tactics.
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I hope you didn’t think I was insulting you. :(
Just a young doe here…. still learning.
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 12:41 AM
ROFLMAO! And recalling a distant memory. I was on Travis AFB (I think) driving along behind a line of parked B-52s wondering what all those big pieces of sheet metal leaned up against that fence were for. Suddenly one of those big SOBs fired up an engine just to my starboard and I found out! Blast deflectors to keep traffic from being blown off the road.
Oldnuke on August 10, 2008 at 12:45 AM
Ugh, someone send me some global warming.. wet wood sucks.
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 12:46 AM
Kind of how the f22’s seem to knock you on your butt?
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 12:48 AM
I like how everybody sees Russia’s actions as aggression, and our lack of action as negotiations (and Russia sees their actions as peacekeeping).
When just a couple of months ago, the entire Red Right were calling negotiations appeasement. When we let Russia haphazardly attack another nation and all we do is sit back and negotiate it’s a bit ridiculous. Not only does that actually make me a little sick; but the fact that our intelligence community, which is suppose to keep tabs on these sorts of things, didn’t really seem to be on the up-n-up about either Georgia’s actions or Russia’s, also makes me a little sick.
Far be it for Georgia to be the 21st Century’s Archduke, but a stronger reponse then the one we’ve been seeing should be in order. Otherwise Russia may get it in their heads that taking back their former Soviet-bloc countries bit by bit will be easy.
PresidenToor on August 10, 2008 at 12:48 AM
Dunno, never seen an F-22. F4 phantoms would be more familiar to me :-) You gotta realize I predate even the F-15.
Oldnuke on August 10, 2008 at 12:50 AM
Not enough trees.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 12:51 AM
Ok, same difference.. smaller engine and your ears bleed when they take off.
sorry the cold is kicking my butt but if I go to sleep now I will be up all night.
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 12:52 AM
Suggestions?
hillbillyjim on August 10, 2008 at 12:54 AM
What just happened? The Kremlin decided it was time to act, since Georgia was only growing stronger under its democratically elected government. Although NATO has been hemming and hawing about admitting Georgia, the Russians didn’t want to take any chances. (Just last month, 1,000 US troops were in Georgia for an exercise.)
Calculating that the media and world leaders would be partying in Beijing, the Russians ordered North Ossetian militiamen, backed by Russian “peacekeepers” and mercenaries, to provoke the Georgians earlier this month.
Weary of the Russian presence on their soil, the Georgians took the bait. President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered his US-trained military to respond.
That was the excuse the Kremlin wanted. Immediately, a tank brigade from Russia’s 58th Army (the butchers of Chechnya) crossed the international border into Poland – sorry, I meant Georgia.
- Ralph Peters
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 12:55 AM
As someone noted earlier we don’t really know what’s going on behind the scenes. Nothing to back it up but I think there’s a lot more happening than we’re hearing about.
Oldnuke on August 10, 2008 at 12:59 AM
In the practical art of war, you must be prepared to fight at any time in the future. In the impractical art of war, you should have been prepared quite some time ago, and it’s probably already too late. You’re scroomed.
Losing a war is the surest path to defeat in war.
If your enemy wins the war, you are defeated.
- Sun Tzu’s Nephew
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 12:59 AM
Check out the F-22 Langley air demo.
If you have high-speed internet go to Lockheed-Martin’s dedicated website http://www.f22-raptor.com/ and click on the F-22 Gallery button near the bottom just above the Pratt&Whitney logo. Enjoy.
viking01 on August 10, 2008 at 1:02 AM
Oldnuke on August 10, 2008 at 12:50 AM
Several years ago (between oilfield assignments), I did a consulting job up in Holloman Airforce base up the road in New Mexico, where I trained all of the F-22 pilots and flight people in advanced networking systems. It was a rather high-security facility, as you can imagine.
I got to get a good gander at the plane, and the folks all gave me lots of tidbits about it. There was about two flying overhead at all times, it seemed. A gorgeous sight to see..
Lots of redundancy in its computer systems and very responsive and fast fighter.
TexasJew on August 10, 2008 at 1:03 AM
Just heard on the radio that Russia will not back down due to the Georgian army not leaving.
Oh this is going to get bad.
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 1:04 AM
Thanks, I’ll check it out. I’ve seen lots of video and pictures of the F-22. I was talking up close and personal ‘hadn’t seen’.
Oldnuke on August 10, 2008 at 1:04 AM
Morning TJ, you should have been in earlier when I was explaining that Georgia is a natural resource stragetic hit for the Russian’s via the lng plant they have.
I think you would have been able to add quite a bit.
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 1:05 AM
That is as it should be, for now. Now is not the time for premature public pronouncements and bellicose bravado.
Whatever stance we take we must be willing to back up with action, not just words; otherwise we are demonstrably weakened.
hillbillyjim on August 10, 2008 at 1:07 AM
Just stick some branches in your ears and you’ll fit right in.
viking01 on August 10, 2008 at 1:08 AM
Both sides are strutting and posturing. Hard to tell what’s really going on. Remember Baghdad Bob.
Oldnuke on August 10, 2008 at 1:09 AM
Oh great, so we need a Georgian Gim now? LMFAO!
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 1:12 AM
Of course it isn’t a joke, but Bob.. oh Lord.
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 1:20 AM
My first week at Bergstom AFB, I could’nt sleep because of the noise, but after that I hardly noticed it. There were no deflectors on the runway and jack rabbits got blown everywhere. It was an amazing sight to see four B-52’s rolling and four airborn less than a minute apart.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 1:22 AM
Yeah, Kennedy learned that lesson. A little late but he learned, and I don’t think he liked it much. Since then I think the only leader we’ve had that really understood that concept was Reagan. It seems ironic to me that the present situation can (arguably) be laid directly at his feet. He upset the balance of power by winning the cold war and as I’ve said before nature abhors a vacuum. Lots of elbowing and jostling going on in the world trying to reach equilibrium again. I just hope we don’t reach the tipping point and topple over into the abyss.
Oldnuke on August 10, 2008 at 1:24 AM
Morning upinak… I think that this is a shot across the bow of Europe, telling them that Russia will be able to shut their NG AND oil pipelines at will…
Putin knows that rattling the sword will only endear him more to the Russian people, who are dealing with a national inferiority complex, having fallen off the “Major Power” hot parade after 1991.
Now, with their 15,000 megatons of nasty nuclear weapons, and many billions of gas and oil bucks in their pockets, they’re baa-ack!
Confession: I reviewed my notes from my latest Holloman gig: most of those jets were the retiring F-117 Nighthawks, which have now been replaced by the F-22’s.
In fact, I think that the F-117’s were much more impressive-looking planes, but stuck with Jimmy Carter-era electronics and lots of breakdowns.
TexasJew on August 10, 2008 at 1:25 AM
I see the usual Russia-hating is strong around here. Russia is the aggressor now? Excuse me, but who was it exactly that bombed the snot out of South Ossetia Friday, killing 15 Russians in the process while hoping that everybody would be too busy oo-ing and aaah-ing at the fireworks in communist Beijing to notice?
A lot of understandable concern about the civilians in Georgia being killed today. I agree. But where’s the concern about the South Ossetians killed when Georgia initiated the conflict Friday? Huh? Bueller? Anyone?
“The Russians hate us”, are you kidding me? If there was one people in the world that loved us during the Cold War and right after the Soviet Union went to its well-deserved grave, it would be the Russians. I know, because I was right there when it was still going on, right to the west of the wall and heavily involved with keeping an eye on them in case they got frisky, so don’t anybody give me a “Cold Warrior” lecture either. I was serving right next door to them and harbored no illusions about my life expectancy if the Soviet bastards were to attack. And one thing I learned from sifting through their dirty laundry was that they, the rank and file Russians, wanted nothing more than to be like us. But we pissed it all away after their murderous regime fell because we wanted to suck up to the communist butchers in Beijing instead. Yeah, they might be angry with us now, pissing down somebody’s back for a decade and a half tends to have that effect, but they sure as heck weren’t then, so spare me the “if it’s the Russians doing it, then we must be against it because they’re eeeeeevil.”
Talk about missed opportunities. We could have had a firm friendship with one of the largest nations on Earth, a nation inhabited by people who wanted, more than anything else in the world, to be more like us, but instead we chose to fellate the Tianmen butchers so we could admire their Olympic opening ceremony and buy their cheap crap.
And now we’re supposed to condemn them for attacking a nation that killed their nationals? Give me a break. If there is one thing that has damaged us more than anything else, if there is one thing that contributed to Osama bin Jackarse feeling confident that he could get away with 9/11, it was the fact that we’re a bunch of weak pansies when it comes to responding to aggression. Hey, I’m not the one saying it, he said so himself. Mogadishu, anyone?
I fully understand that we’re in a horrible pickle here. Georgia is a loyal, steadfast, valuable ally of ours and we need to do something to end this silly bloodshed. We owe them at least that much for their help, but we need to think long and hard about how we’re going to accomplish that and, most of all, who started this nonsense.
Sure, we could get involved in an all-out war with Russia, what a bloody irony that would be after we spent decades defeating the Soviet Union without firing a shot, but trust me: You don’t want that.
But hey, I’m sure that our communist “most favored trading nation” friends in Beijing would be ever so thankful for taking care of their business for them.
Polniy pipyets.
Misha I on August 10, 2008 at 1:27 AM
I’ll never forget watching C-5s practicing touch-and-go landings at Altus AFB. Beyond words.
viking01 on August 10, 2008 at 1:27 AM
Well said.
Well, time to go chase cuzzin Ellie May around the room. Good night all.
hillbillyjim on August 10, 2008 at 1:30 AM
I think that the F-22 has a smaller radar signature than the F-117 also.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 1:31 AM
AM
Goodnight.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 1:32 AM
Misha, if you don’t like the fact we are worried about Russia and you don’t care for it. Then stop reading.
Also if you don’t like it here in America and like it better in Russia, please.. go back!
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 1:35 AM
Oh man! I never actually got to see one take off. Just that one episode with the engine. I’ve seen a boat load of carrier ops though. In ‘67 I watched four carriers launching continuous strikes against Hanoi and Haiphong at the same time for a period of 48 hours. That’s a bunch of planes coming and going. We were an escort for Enterprise, but we also played ATC and EWS. Well the topside pukes did that. I just drove the boat.
Oldnuke on August 10, 2008 at 1:35 AM
Misha, you сукин сын (literally);-)
I hope that got pasted properly..
The point here is not if Georgia acted like, well… Georgians, but if Russia wants to go back to its badass days.
With all the Georgians in Moscow and other urban centers in Russia, will the Russians want another internal terror war if they crush the Georgians and blast Tblisi..
TexasJew on August 10, 2008 at 1:35 AM
You have really got to work on your material, not to mention your delivery. That does remind me however of putting cigarette filters in my ears in the FA.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 1:37 AM
I detect that you must have missed Ralph Peter’s column.
What just happened? The Kremlin decided it was time to act, since Georgia was only growing stronger under its democratically elected government. Although NATO has been hemming and hawing about admitting Georgia, the Russians didn’t want to take any chances. (Just last month, 1,000 US troops were in Georgia for an exercise.)
Calculating that the media and world leaders would be partying in Beijing, the Russians ordered North Ossetian militiamen, backed by Russian “peacekeepers” and mercenaries, to provoke the Georgians earlier this month.
Weary of the Russian presence on their soil, the Georgians took the bait. President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered his US-trained military to respond.
That was the excuse the Kremlin wanted. Immediately, a tank brigade from Russia’s 58th Army (the butchers of Chechnya) crossed the international border into Poland – sorry, I meant Georgia.
- Ralph Peters
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 1:40 AM
How many fit in until the needle moved past empty?
viking01 on August 10, 2008 at 1:41 AM
I think that the F-22 has a smaller radar signature than the F-117 also.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 1:31 AM
One question I liked to ask the tech guys whenever they told me that the F-117 (and the upcoming F-22) had the radar signature of ” a pigeon”.
What would a radar operator and his trusty computer think if they saw a pigeon-sized blip TRAVELLING AT 600 MPH?
“Ooh.. it’s super-pigeon” or… “shit, its a stealth fighter!”
TexasJew on August 10, 2008 at 1:42 AM
We? Have you got a mouse in your pocket? My sons and grandson have been or are now fighting our enemies and my father and uncles all fought and against Hitler and Tojo, some dying, so don’t cast aspersions on the American character.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 1:44 AM
Well it’s late and past my bedtime. I gotta get up at the crack of noon tomorrow so g’night, it’s been fun. We’ll solve all the world’s problems tomorrow. That is if the ‘pockyclips don’t come and skynet doesn’t become self aware tonight.
Oldnuke on August 10, 2008 at 1:47 AM
By the time that they saw it, they would not be thinking anything.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 1:47 AM
Later.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 1:48 AM
Good Lord man are you in early grade school? You sure do sound like it. Inflatable dolls, parole officer, etc and now “needle moved past empty”. And here I had tried to be generous and give you the benefit of being at a 6th grade level. You probably have no idea what FA is.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 1:49 AM
elduende,
I don’t see that as the question at all. The question I’d ask is “Why is the United States shouldering the military burdens of European nations when their is no vital American interest at stake?”
And you think expanding this silly, post-modernist alliance is a good thing?
Once again we return to the question of NATO’s original purpose and its subsequent mission creep. Turkey’s inclusion was vital to protecting Western Europe’s southern flank. Georgia’s inclusion? Not so much (not at all actually).
There was no Serbian genocide in Kosovo. That was all Clinton administration propaganda. The Serbs sought to quell an Albanian inspired uprising and preserve the territorial integrity of their country.
There was definitely “ethnic cleansing” in Kosovo. It was ruthlessly executed by the KLA and under the watchful eyes of NATO. Tens of thousands of ethnic Serbs were forcibly removed from their homeland.
The Superpower business is an expensive and ultimately thankless one that the United States can ill-afford anymore. Basically all it entaills is the United States bearing the world’s military burdens and being blamed for all of the world’s problems. I’d prefer that the United States wasn’t in the Superpower business.
Newsflash: It ain’t 1945 anymore. Russia is dying. It’s population is plunging and will likely be surpassed by Yemen’s in 2050. They’ll have a hard enough time hanging on to Siberia let alone engaging in all sorts of imperial adventurism. Militarily, I doubt the Russians could reconquer Eastern Europe even if they were so inclined. We all saw how their military spectacularly underperfomed in Chechnya.
Ultimately what happens in Eastern Europe and the Caucauses is Europe’s problem. Their energy supplies and collective security are most at risk. If both areas are such a vital strategic concern for those countries, then the Europeans can man up, shift some of their precious nanny state resources to their militaries, and create a credible deterrent.
Call me crazy but I think it would be nice if the Europeans dealt with their own problems. Fifty years after the Marshall Plan I don’t think I’m asking for too much.
Incidentally, the flip side of your scenario is for the U.S. to encircle the wounded Russian bear with a worthless military alliance looking for a mission and get sucked into a military confrontation with another nuclear power.
Mike Honcho on August 10, 2008 at 1:51 AM
Misha I on August 10, 2008 at 1:27 AM
You really need to calm down, kick back and watch our steroid-laden shemale athletes defeat their steroid-laden shemale athletes (or vice versa) on a 64-inch hi-def screen.
Accompanied by much party-approved applauding, and all in glorious Sinocolor..
TexasJew on August 10, 2008 at 1:53 AM
Probably field artillery though I suspect you’re a REMF.
viking01 on August 10, 2008 at 1:53 AM
shemales.. LMFAO! HAHAHHAHAHAAAA
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 1:54 AM
If he is FA.. then I am a monkey on a landcruiser on Mars. Need I say more?
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 1:56 AM
I personally think that we should have stayed out of WWI and WWII. Incidentally, Finland was the the only country that repaid it’s WWII war debt.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 1:59 AM
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 1:56 AM
Agreed. I think he’s in pocket artillery. Most likely.
viking01 on August 10, 2008 at 2:00 AM
Yah, the Europeans (”Olde Europe”) have kind of become like a fifty something still living with their uncle.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 2:00 AM
Ya, and they complain like one also.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 2:02 AM
You suspect all kinds of things.
1193.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 2:03 AM
Yup, if they are not complaining about their coco being too cold they are complaining about it being too hot.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 2:05 AM
Sure do. Especially with those who talk big and at excess length.
viking01 on August 10, 2008 at 2:07 AM
1193 – Field Artillery Unit Commander.
explains why he is so po’ed at the world…
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 2:08 AM
Well off to bed for this sick girl I think. Got the fire banked… finally damn wet wood.
Have a good one all.
upinak on August 10, 2008 at 2:10 AM
Well then I sure hope that your oxygen, water, gas and bananas don’t run out.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 2:14 AM
I’m not “po’ed”. Wouldn’t be prudent.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 2:15 AM
When you fight and die in a war you are not allowed to win it is enough to make you bitter. Police action. Ha. The military’s job is to kill people and blow things up, not to be policeman. By the way, this rant is not toward you, we just need leaders that will not go to war and then hamstring our troops.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 2:16 AM
I only look big compared to you as a cat would to a mouse. As they say, it’s all relative.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 2:18 AM
And he was apparently mustered out as a second looey if that’s his highest specialty code indicated. I guess I’d be bitter too for no promotions. No surprise to me in his case.
viking01 on August 10, 2008 at 2:25 AM
Notice I said “talk big” not “look big” though armchair general seems your forte’.
viking01 on August 10, 2008 at 2:29 AM
Oh I notice a lot about you ,as a cat does a mouse.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 2:31 AM
Mike Honcho on August 10, 2008 at 1:51 AM
Wow. Nice. I can rebut your assertions point for point but what I can’t argue with is your straight up isolationism.
That is the decadence that bin Laden was talking about. The strategic fatigue and lack of vibrancy that leads to downfall. If you believe strategic retrenchment will be an agent of strength for this nation as well as a moral policy then go for it.
However, here is a NEWSFLASH for you this is not the 1930s anymore;
the time when the US could adopt the “ostrich strategy” and ignore the world and hope the darkness stays away does not cut it anymore; Unfortunately isolationism seems like a cheap and attractive policy but it ignores the fact that we live in a Hobbesian reality, where the international system needs to be policed. Guess what after WW2 that became us.
Maybe we should ask the Georgians how that “Russia is dying” thing is working out for them. You know, before we cynically walk away from them the first time they need our help. Yeah I’m sure that will make us strong nation no doubt about it. Russian domination of the oil rich trans-caucasus is certainly something that won’t impact us here I mean who needs that oil anyway when we have all that wind.
Lets abrogate all our “entangling alliances” that George Washington warned us about and mind our business I’m sure the world will be nice enough to recognize our retrenchment and leave us alone.
elduende on August 10, 2008 at 2:35 AM
No, I think I have got a ways to go before I could be an armchair general.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 2:35 AM
Your suspicions are most defective yet again, mouse. 1193 spanned 3 ranks.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 2:42 AM
Match. Set. Game. Elduende.
Mebe next time Mike Honcho.
TheEJS on August 10, 2008 at 2:43 AM
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aPLDNxutvt7M&refer=worldwide
bigger sh*t, bigger fan
Sammy316 on August 10, 2008 at 2:43 AM
Thank you EJS and greetings from South Florida!
elduende on August 10, 2008 at 2:51 AM
This one is going must be played very carefully. We do not want to reach the point of no return.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 2:52 AM
Bad grammar. Got to get some sleep.
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 2:57 AM
is goingJohan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 2:58 AM
Johan Klaus on August 10, 2008 at 2:52 AM
Depends on what you consider the point of no return. Hopefully we are not going to leave Georgia in the lurch because many nations in Russia’s “near abroad” like Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, who have “put it on the line” to support us when we need them are watching.
elduende on August 10, 2008 at 2:59 AM
Goodnight Johan Klaus.
elduende on August 10, 2008 at 3:00 AM
Oh I don’t think that it was any “Match. Set. Game” there. I think that elduende had some good points, but I think that Mike Honcho did also.
Things are seldom binary.
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 3:01 AM
What all specifically led up to this weekend’s onslaught in Georgia will never get hashed out properly in America anyway.
Putin has been converting Russia into a Fascist State at a brisk gate, allying with the Russian Orthodox Church to march alongside all military parades, etc., all of the trimmings and pinnings being secured over the past years. Why on earth Bush would feign Putin a Mr. Nice Guy when it’s clear as day Putin resembles a serpent is beyond reason, then and now.
Whatever else Georgia is, they are our ally in Iraq. GWB was hard put finding willing alliances, and how he honors that alliance Georgia made with us matters, stepping up to help when the going was very rough indeed. With well over 1000 civilians killed by the Russian military, Bush can not stand by gazing like a mere lame duck without the worst implications spilling over any new alliances we have made with Eastern Europeans in Poland, or South America, Columbia for instance. Georgia has called for a complete cease fire, yet Russia’s onslaught continues.
WE DON’T WANT WAR! But the dogs of war are already at it. Just pray that Wesley Clark is completely retired and out of the damn picture. I suppose it is time for all of our forces stationed in Germany to prepare for reality contact show of force and readiness to participate. It’s only been 60 years of occupation. But once the gears turn on, there’s no going back as things “were”.
maverick muse on August 10, 2008 at 3:05 AM
Now you tell me.
- John Edwards
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 3:06 AM
elduende,
I’m not an isolationist. I do not oppose the United States entering into strategic alliances nor do I oppose the U.S. projecting its power to protect its vital interests. Becoming ensnared in pointless alliances and projecting military power to protect non-vital interests is something I have a bit of a problem with.
I accept that the world needed stability following the end of WWII and that the U.S. was the only nation capable of providing it. But, fifty years after the end of WWII and nineteen years after the collapse of the Berlin Wall, why does that world policeman have to be us alone?
Russia is dying. It’s a fact that is critical when assessing the seriousness of the threat that they pose.
And by “helping” the Georgians (who started this current conflict) you advocate what? Going to war against Russia?
Ultimately protecting central Asia energy supplies and dealing with any Russian imperialism is Europe’s strategic problem. Let them deal with it. They are more than capable of doing so.
That’s not isolationism, that’s common sense.
Mike Honcho on August 10, 2008 at 3:24 AM
EJS,
Um, okay. Elduende admittedly didn’t rebut any of the points that I made in my previous post and accused me of being an isolationist (something I am not).
Other than that, you’re right. He did a bang up job.
Mike Honcho on August 10, 2008 at 4:04 AM
Good grief.
So you think we have no vital interests in Georgia? Lets leave out the moral arguments about why this is a myopic policy and concentrate on more raw power issues.
You do know we have a “global” energy market right? There is no such thing as a “European” energy market. I mean if that were the case why even coddle the Gulf sheikdoms I mean that is an Asian energy problem right? The fact is that whomever controls energy politically controls access. The Russians have been using energy as a weapon for a few years now. Oil that bypasses the Russians cannot be used as a weapon by the Russians.
Do you know what a Hobbesian international system is and what it implies? Endemic instability, disorder, violent competition amongst global rivals etc.
If we don’t safeguard the current international system someone who may not have our best interests at heart will develop the capability to compete directly with us. What makes you think the rise of yet more military hegemons would acquiese to our interests instead of placing them in direct rivalry with us?
Do you really want German Carrier Strike Groups and Chinese Expeditionary Forces running around invading and attacking to their little hearts content do you? I mean you understand that this is a bad thing right? World wars start very fast when everybody is rearming to pursue their own security interests.
Allowing such a world to spin into existence because its “just not fair” seems to lack common sense.
elduende on August 10, 2008 at 4:07 AM
Mike Honcho on August 10, 2008 at 4:04 AM
You know I will agree with you about certain American entanglements that don’t serve our interests. Mainly the UN. We should withdraw from it and disband it. It has become a bastion of enemy activity. time to stop that particular entanglement.
elduende on August 10, 2008 at 4:36 AM
Two things: 1) I’m not a Russian. I spent most of my youth learning how to fight Russians. They weren’t at the time particularly well dispositioned towards us. I also spent most of my time in uniform analyzing every fart they made, public or otherwise, so I suspect that I know a bit more about them and their national psyche than you’ll ever learn, kiddo.
2) It’s awfully nice of you to invite me to “go back” to a place that I never came from in the first place, but why don’t we turn it around? If you’re so bloody enamored with your hatred of them, why don’t YOU don a uniform and go fight them? Your communist friends in Beijing would greatly appreciate your efforts. Heck, who knows, they might even give you a really good deal on a coffee maker in return.
Maybe the Georgians ought to ask themselves that question before they persist in picking a fight with one of the biggest badasses on the block over a territory whose inhabitants wouldn’t piss on them if their nads were on fire?
Sorry. My bad. And here I was, thinking that Saakashvili, as he himself admitted to, was deciding that the opening of the Olympics was the perfect time for somebody to attack a small nation. Dammit, I really need to stop believing what people say that they are going to do. I guess going into Iraq was a dumb idea too. I mean, other than Saddam himself boasting about his WMDs, what evidence did we really have? And let’s lay off of Iran too. That whole silliness about them publicly proclaiming that they’re going to nuke Eretz Yisroel isn’t worth wasting time on.
Misha I on August 10, 2008 at 4:37 AM
Misha I on August 10, 2008 at 4:37 AM
Holy crap you’re actually the Misha of Anti idiotarian? Dude I Fuc’n love that site. It was actually the first “right” site I started reading about 3 years ago going on 4 years. I love it bro. Good work, thanks, and keep it up!
elduende on August 10, 2008 at 4:43 AM
And good for them. I salute them. But the fight would be a whole lot easier if our so-called “leaders” weren’t pissing their pants over the thought of a New York Times editorial chastising them over the use of “excessive force.” Not to mention that those valiant souls fighting over there would be home with us where they belong a whole lot sooner if we’d start kicking the shit out of our enemies instead of worrying about their hurt feelings.
Misha I on August 10, 2008 at 4:43 AM
The very same, elduende. And thanks for your kind words. I truly appreciate them :-)
Misha I on August 10, 2008 at 4:44 AM
HEY Misha how do I get a password to comment on your site bro?
elduende on August 10, 2008 at 4:47 AM
Never mind Misha my Bad i found it.
elduende on August 10, 2008 at 4:49 AM
Interesting article on your site, giving the other side, and rather persuasive, if not totally convincing, but I am “perplexed” by this –
I was aware that the Chinese come under the general heading of communist, with a fair amount of capitalism thrown in, but you seem to be implying the the Russians are not actual communists. What are they then? Democrats? Republicans? Libertarians? No, I know that’s not right. Tsarists? Fascists? Putinists?
MB4 on August 10, 2008 at 5:11 AM
The Ossetians, who inhabit the disputed region, want to separate from the Georgians, claiming they’re second class citizens. The Russians, who severely criticized the West for recognizing Kosovo’s break away from a repressive Serbia, saying it set a bad precedent, now support the separation of Ossetia. Hypocritical, no? Anyway, the Georgian army enters Ossetia to try to suppress the Ossetian rebels and are attacked by the Russians, a.k.a. neo-Nazis. Not only do the Russians pummel the Georgian troops in Ossetia, they fire ballistic missiles and launch bombers to pound Georgian cities in either a terrible over reaction or a signal to the world that the Red Army is back to intimidate Russia’s former satraps. Given a chance, Russia will do for Georgia what they did for Chechnya, and the world will stand by just like Chamberlain did a Munich.
NNtrancer on August 10, 2008 at 7:03 AM
Let’s get something straight here: The Russians are underhanded bastards who never stopped playing hardball. I spent several years working overseas in a former Soviet Bloc country. When said country had a revolution back in ‘05, Russian televesion announced that the former president was a guest of the Americans at the local Air Base WHILE HE WAS ON A PLANE HEADED TO MOSCOW. Oddly enough, the Russians must be bribing the crap out of someone, because said country charges us $150 million or thereabouts per year for a base we maintain there, while the Russians get an entire air base for FREE.
Not to mention that as part of the CTSO and the SCO, said government routinely finds ways to embarass the Americans right before summits – discharging NGOs, raiding rented houses under diplomatic immunity that are holding weapons that “someone” tipped them off about (imagine their chagrin when it was revealed that said weapons were being used by OUR government to train THEIR secret service in response to THEIR request and brought in with THEIR approval)….
The final story involves a relative of mine who met an untimely fate after being requested to perform surveillance activities against the Russians before a conference. It’s not clear exactly, but some sort of request was made and then he ended up dead a few weeks later, his chest caved in an accident involving a vehicle travling not more than 25 kph. In standard communist tradition, first two people were running from the car; after the police talked to the witnesses no-one saw or heard anything. One thing is for certain though, all of his documents were gone. And you know how those communist countries love their paperwork.
flashoverride on August 10, 2008 at 7:18 AM
Russia has apparently launched another assault from Abkhazia dropping all pretenses that this was about maintaining status quo. If Georgia falls, the entire Caucasus region will be in Russian grip and Europe will lose any hope of gaining energy independence from Russia (as the only alternative route is through Georgia). If Russia succeeds in Georgia it is only a matter of time when there will be other wars. The war with Ukraine is likely to be extremely bloody.
There have been plenty of chances to defuse the Ossetian and Abkhazian problems. Now may be already too late.
kittysaidwoof on August 10, 2008 at 9:28 AM
With respect to MB’s time in Vietnam 1971-72 I might surmise the following…
1193 – Field Artillery Unit Commander, almost certainly with the rank of 1st. Lieutenant or Captain.
Some referred to these fine gentlemen as “Landscapers”…!
Later Naval Officer’s designators [119?], would indicate an Unrestricted Line Officer either a Marine or SEAL in Special Operations training.
J_Gocht on August 10, 2008 at 9:31 AM
When and if one accepts President Bush’s evaluation of Putin or Medvedev we may finally grasp the meaning of the new heart and soul of olde Russia.
J_Gocht on August 10, 2008 at 10:09 AM
Why do we need to negotiate with Russia? They have no business being there. How they got RUSSIAN “peacekeepers” there in the first place is beyond amazing.
Darth Executor on August 10, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Crap..I misunderstood what was happening. I thought Atlanta was finally getting what it so richly deserves.
JonRoss on August 10, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Pretty much like we got our AMERICAN “nation builders” into Iraq, heavy tanks with massive air support.
J_Gocht on August 10, 2008 at 11:16 AM
I’m starting to get a sense of deja-vu these days. We’ve got an imperialistic expansionist government with an aggressive military machine operating to our West. Said government is going to great lengths to increase their standing on the global scene. At the same time we’ve got an expansionist totalitarian trending government in a country emerging from a severe economic depression to our East. Said country is capable of and in a position to threaten Western Asia and all of Europe. Leaders of both countries seem to have a sense of entitlement to be an unchallenged dominant force. Small podunk countries all over the world are aligning themselves with one or another of the emerging leaders while most of the Western democracies sit around talking about diplomacy. All the while here at home we hear cries for isolationism and hands off none of our business. Can’t quite put my finger on it but sure does sound familiar.
Oldnuke on August 10, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Not so fast, “…isolationism and hands off none of our business.”
Huh?
What the hell is Iraq…coveting thy neighbor’s wife…?
J_Gocht on August 10, 2008 at 11:29 AM
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