Russians bomb Georgian city
posted at 11:40 am on August 9, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Wouldn’t this constitute a war crime, if deliberate? The Russians dropped bombs on the city of Gori today, killing civilians, while announcing that they had taken the capital of South Ossetia back from Georgia. Meanwhile, the US struggles to find a response that will contain the aggression and hostilities, but Georgia has war on its mind:
Russian air attacks over northern Georgia intensified on Saturday morning, striking two apartment buildings in the city of Gori and clogging roads out of the area with fleeing refugees.
Russian authorities said their forces had retaken the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, from Georgian control during the morning hours. They reported that 15 Russian peacekeepers and 1,500 civilians have been killed in the conflict.
Georgian forces shot down 10 Russian combat planes over the last two days, according to Alexander Lomaya, secretary of the Georgian National Security Council.
Shota Utiashvili, an official at the Georgian Interior Ministry, called the attack on Gori a “major escalation,” and said he expected attacks to increase over the course of Saturday. He said some 16 Russian planes were in the air over Georgian territory at any given time on Saturday, four times the number of sorties seen Friday.
The US received howls of criticism for its targeted strikes on insurgents who deliberately hid among civilians in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Even Barack Obama criticized American tactics in the latter, saying that all we were doing was “air raiding villages and killing civilians”. Israel got the same criticism during its war with Hezbollah, which also hid among civilians.
So when will we hear criticism from Obama, MoveOn, and the rest of the critics over these tactics by Russia? Georgia is fielding a uniformed army, clearly identifiable and operating under command of the state. Why does Russia need to bomb civilian centers under these conditions?
The US, meanwhile, has tried talking with both sides, but unsurprisingly have not gotten far with either. Georgia claims that Russia started the war by supporting the separatist attacks and then escalated with their own attacks on Georgia proper; Russia claims that they are only fulfilling their role as peacekeepers and would stop if Georgia withdraws from South Ossetia. The Russians claim that the US got taken aback by Georgia’s actions, praising our efforts to defuse the crisis but noting that those efforts proved fruitless.
We need to get both sides to stop fighting long enough to come back to the table. Clearly, the Russian involvement in South Ossetia and Abkhazia has proven too much of a provocation for peace to return in the long term. John McCain’s idea of a foreign force might be a better plan, if we can negotiate that with Russia and Georgia. However, with our support of Kosovo’s independence, we had better be prepared for Russian support of independence for these two states, a complication I warned about in March. We set the precedent, and the Russians followed suit.
Update: Here’s the video of Obama ripping American tactics in Afghanistan:
I await with bated breath his swift and merciless condemnation of Russian tactics.
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They probably are, as well as a few other items. :)
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 1:42 PM
[upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:53 PM]
True. I usually think of that as a part of geography. There is only one reason to hold or take territory and that is because it is valuable.
Dusty on August 9, 2008 at 1:43 PM
Georgia has quite a bit of Natural Gas (Methane) in the area. They also have a nice LNG facility and pipelines.
Russia stopped the flow and production of many of their wells (they are being very odd but showing military planning on it) and P&A them. Which makes me wonder.
How do your control a country who is beginning to show signs of their own infrastructure. You cut off what is making them money… and in this case… Georgia’s own Gas.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 1:48 PM
Absolutely. Secession is the right of any people, this is why it is so imperative we get immigrants who want to be Americans, not immigrants with a desire to return Aztlan to Mexico.
Tim Burton on August 9, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Good source document. Do you think Georgia’s intent to join NATO may be a reason for Russia’s actions. I seem to recall some largely ignored Russian protestations when other former slave states joined.
I like this quote.
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Serious times call for serious men. Too bad we don’t have any available at this point.
President John Bolton, anyone?
hillbillyjim on August 9, 2008 at 1:50 PM
P.S. …and women, of course. (Margaret Thatcher, we miss you.)
hillbillyjim on August 9, 2008 at 1:54 PM
where is the America I grew up thinking I lived in, the one that defended it’s allies… stood up for forming democracies and defended the freedom of the oppressed?
Kaptain Amerika on August 9, 2008 at 1:56 PM
Maybe “W” will get on the hotline to his pal Pootie Poo, and ask him to knock it off, you know, for old times’ sake.
</s
hillbillyjim on August 9, 2008 at 1:58 PM
So, if Vermonters decide they want out of the United States, it’s ok?
Connie on August 9, 2008 at 2:00 PM
It seems unlikely that the U.S. would not help Georgia if Russia begins seizing Georgian territory (outside the breakaway republics). I guess if we hear of a Russian column heading to Tbilisi, we’ll see it mysteriously destroyed by some new Georgian “weapon system.” Either way the fighting will likely continue until the Russians destroy what they want in order to leave an impression, and secure the two breakaway republics.
Blacksoda on August 9, 2008 at 2:01 PM
Yes.
freevillage on August 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM
Ed, you don’t really believe that anyone actually takes the idea of ‘war crimes’ seriously? War is war. The losers are criminals to the winners and will have to suffer whatever the winners decide.
This world is headed for serious problems when nonserious elements (like the notion of war crimes or the UN, for example) are taken seriously.
If someone wanted to “charge” the Russians with ‘war crimes’ who would enforce that? I think we all know the answer to this.
Countries only accuse others of war crimes to express how much they hate, or are jealous of, them – but the war crime issue is never serious. I think this has been obvious for a long time.
progressoverpeace on August 9, 2008 at 2:06 PM
One of a constellation of reasons, I reckon. Here’s more:
Eduard Kokoity, the leader of the breakaway South Ossetian government, … embarrass[ed] Russia in the eyes of the international community and ending with his ratcheting up the tensions in the very region where Russia might begin to come undone. South Ossetia is not a territory, not a country, not a regime. It is a joint venture of siloviki generals and Ossetian bandits for making money in a conflict with Georgia.
…
In April of this year, under intense pressure from Moscow, NATO decided not to invite Georgia and Ukraine join its 26-member alliance immediately, but promised to revisit the issue soon. This may prove to have been a serious mistake, inviting Russian provocation. Days later, Putin ordered the establishment of semi-official ties with the rebel “government” in South Ossetia, which Georgia charged was a violation of international law. A few weeks later, Russia began sending more troops to the border of South Ossetia, which NATO said was a provocation of Georgia. In July, Russian fighter jets penetrated Georgian airspace and flew a reconnaissance mission over South Ossetia in a show of force — a warning, really — designed to “cool hot heads in Tbilisi [the capital of Georgia],” the Kremlin said.
Source:
RushBaby on August 9, 2008 at 2:07 PM
Hasn’t parts of Vermont started their own currancy? As of some of the New England areas? Also, isn’t that concidered a act of treason? The indians with casino’s and reservations won’t do that, they aren’t dumb. So why does the Americans who are trying to splint off do it?
Why not let them splinter off? Let them figure out the tariffs and the trade embargo’s and the taxes etc. Maybe they will wake up and figure out they had it good! Also they won’t be getting Tax payers money from the Federal part of the government, not can they have congress people or senators in D.C.
Screw it, let them do their own thing. Let them eat Cheese!
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 2:07 PM
Nope, he’s too busy kissin up to China at the Olympics… but he wouldn’t have to call, just lean over to the next Box seat at Olympic stadium.
Romeo13 on August 9, 2008 at 2:07 PM
Strategically, yes. But with Communists there’s more to it than that. Ultimately, this is a crusade for them. Collectivism may have seemed like a potentially viable economic system at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution (and coincidentally around the same time phrenology was considered a potentially viable medical diagnosis technique.) But a very long time ago, the half-baked theory turned into a full-fledged religion.
It’s based on the same fundamental tenet as Islam: Convert as much land and as many slaves as possible to The Cause. Sure, life is Hellish now, but once the final bastion of opposition is defeated, then the whole world will (somehow, magically) turn into a corporeal Paradise.
That’s why the collectivist philosophy can never completely die. You can eliminate ALL their sources of parasitic gain, but the core believers will still keep trying to co-opt the most worthless scrub land in the world – a hundred years after every rational strategist sees that the effort is pointless.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 2:07 PM
Kaptain,
“where is the America I grew up thinking I lived in, the one that defended it’s allies… stood up for forming democracies and defended the freedom of the oppressed?”
Are you serious? You do realize that there are limits to American power, and that we need to pick our battles wisely.
How much help did we provide the East Germans in 1953, Hungarians in 1956, or Czechs in 1968, just to give a few examples? Or if you’re older, the Chinese in the late ’30s?
exhelodrvr on August 9, 2008 at 2:08 PM
Now this is scary.
capitalist piglet on August 9, 2008 at 2:09 PM
The Putin International Law of the U.S.S.R. … er I mean Russia.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 2:09 PM
Logis that is where you are wrong.
Russia/U.S.S.R. was ticked off when they found out that Alaska, even as a territory was so rich with Natural Resources that they wanted it back. Of course the sale was final and that the U.S., even though Alaska was just a big plot of territory and land, more or less told Russia that they can shove it.
A few month ago, Putin said something about taking back what was lost including that of the western hemisphere. What do you suppose he meant by that?
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 2:13 PM
That’s how the propagandists do it.
RushBaby on August 9, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Seriously, those guys are bastards. You do NOT want to screw with them.
I suspect that may be at the root of this. Russians HATE Georgians, and vice versa. Mainly because they were the biggest thorn in the Soviet’s side during the occupation.
There is no way in Hell Georgia is going to knuckle under without the use of overwhelming force, and Russian leaders are fully aware of that fact.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 2:19 PM
[upinak on August 9, 2008 at 1:48 PM]
Yup, those areas are valuable.
That said, I don’t put a huge emphasis on the planning as evidence of timing. It’s the responsibility of Russia’s military to plan out various possibilities or eventualities, same as ours does. What we see to a great extent at least as much as it has to do reaction time, maneuver and some action, is the result of good scenario planning and being prepared to act, not a conspiracy, if you will to start it yesterday.
I look elsewhere for evidence for questioning the timing and, when starting, to think the South Ossetians somehow work independently of Russia is to somehow forgot the last century is to start off on the wrong foot.
Dusty on August 9, 2008 at 2:20 PM
You’re right. That chills my blood…it made me snort my coffee as well.
baldilocks on August 9, 2008 at 2:21 PM
according to Reuters it is now up higher:
At least 2,000 civilians killed in South Ossetia (Reuters)
I nominate America as a war criminal in these matters, I expect the Arab League will back me up on this.. Doesn’t matter if this involves you or not, a special commission needs to be setup as soon as possible, McCain or preferably Bush impeached! (He is in Beijing, now is the time to arrest him!!)
saus on August 9, 2008 at 2:23 PM
True enough. I would hope they are getting strategic intel from us but how about real time battlefield intel? They have lent unyielding support for us in Iraq so I hope we send in a squadron or two and an AWACS to draw a line in the sand. As far as NATO goes, The US is NATO militarily speaking. Still Ukraine is already in Putin’s sites. Let’s nip this in the bud.
ronsfi on August 9, 2008 at 2:25 PM
Ha! I guess those Bitter Rednecks had enough of those Ruskies and decided to take some unilateral action now so they get back before deer season opens.
ronsfi on August 9, 2008 at 2:28 PM
Come again?
freevillage on August 9, 2008 at 2:29 PM
So when do the aliens of the kovorkian society come and take you away? Soon I hope!
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 2:32 PM
That is a very interesting take, if by it, it means the OS’s would prefer a situation wherein they are largely independent of Georgia but not separate from them so that they aren’t gobbled up by the Bear, the reason being they would have a freer reign in profiting from corruption and crime.
Dusty on August 9, 2008 at 2:33 PM
I think he just forgot to /sarc. At least I hope so.
ronsfi on August 9, 2008 at 2:33 PM
After re-reading the article. I think I am mistaken. It appears to be 2000 civilians in 2 days. Criminal! Are they um…cleansing? Paging Code Fink and Mama Chehan! Please pickup the white courtesy phone. (…Chirp chirp)
ronsfi on August 9, 2008 at 2:44 PM
The exact same thing that Muslims mean when they say they’re going to “take back” Israel. The EvilZionists never invaded anything; the same as when the NaziAmericans “stole” land from the Indians. Even if we’d tried, it’s not technically possible to cheat people who themselves deny the concept of rules in the first place.
Muslims don’t need a specific reason to label every outhouse in the Middle East a “holy site.” The fact that land was co-opted to their empire automatically makes it consecrated. Likewise, every inch of planet earth that isn’t yet under Muslim control is considered potentially holy – needing only to be scrubbed clean of infidels to reach its ordained glory. And when any spot of land, for any reason, falls out of the control of Islam, that suddenly makes it 100 times MORE holy.
The Communist religion is based on the same underlying philosophy. And slapping the label “Atheist” on top of their faith changes only two things: jack, and squat. The trappings of the faith are updated from the days when it was taught to Bedouin tribal raiders; but the core belief remains unchanged.
Of course on a case-by-case basis, they’ll certainly try to go after the most lucrative targets first. But that’s just strategy; it’s not their overarching goal. The rapacious greed of collectivism may SEEM all-encompassing, but it’s really only a means to an end.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 2:45 PM
[logis on August 9, 2008 at 2:07 PM]
I agree, though I look at it differently. Russians have pretty much always thought of people, even their own people, as a commodity or resource, that exists on that territory just as gold, silver, oil, or a route to warm weather port. When it needs to be used elsewhere they just move it, at Peter did to build a new city in his honor, or the Soviets did with the gulags.
That’s why I left it at geography. Territory can have more than a strategic value, if by strategic value you mean militarily. If you mean strategic purely as in strategy of the ‘any’ or ‘over all’ kind I’m pretty much in full agreement except in for use of “slaves” because that’s so filled with western meaning that I don’t think it applies.
Dusty on August 9, 2008 at 2:48 PM
BBC Video of this attack
William Amos on August 9, 2008 at 2:55 PM
Its hard to intermingle morality and war. But the easiest way to understand what is going on is to realize countries always act in their self interest. The Russians are doing that now and we did that in Iraq.
But its near impossible to compare one war to another.
William Amos on August 9, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Heh! That kind of schlock I posted up doesn’t even warrant a sarc tag. I’m glad to see my Ron Paul / KOS Kid supporter impressions are getting so good though, I’ve been practicing in the Mirror!
saus on August 9, 2008 at 2:59 PM
In short, it looks more and more as though Georgia has fallen in to its enemies’ trap. The script went like this: first mount unbearable provocations, then wait for a response, and finally reply with overwhelming military force and diplomatic humiliation. The idea that Georgia sought this war is nonsense. Recovering control of South Ossetia from its Russian-backed rulers has been a top priority for the Georgian authorities for years. But nobody thought it would come by military means. The Georgian strategy had been to use soft power, underlining its prosperity and the corruption-
busting successes of Mr Saakashvili’s rule. That contrasted sharply with the isolation and cronyism of South Ossetia, which survives only on smuggling and Russian subsidies.
Now that strategy is in ruins. As things stand, Georgia will be fighting not to regain South Ossetia or even to deter aggression, but to survive. It is hard to see any good outcome. Georgia has failed to win a quick victory: crucially, it failed to block the Roki tunnel under the Caucasus mountains, normally used as a smugglers’ highway, but now the route for Russian heavy weapons that Georgia cannot counter for long. Worse, the authorities in Abkhazia, Georgia’s other breakaway region, may mount an attack, either on its own or with Russian help.
The fighting should be a deafening wake-up call to the West. Our fatal mistake was made at the Nato summit in Bucharest in April, when Georgia’s attempt to get a clear path to membership of the alliance was rebuffed. Mr Saakashvili warned us then that Russia would take advantage of any display of Western weakness or indecision. And it has.
- Edward Lucas
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 2:59 PM
Yes, we must indeed pick our battles wisely. We must now move the rest of our Armed Force to the Center of the Universe, Iraq, immediately. That will stop the Russians cold! He who controls Iraq controls the World.
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 3:09 PM
I have no idea what “western meaning” is. A slave is a slave.
If you wanted to get technical, people who are owned along with the land they live on could be called “serfs” or “chattel.” But, as you point out, even that persnickety distinction clearly doesn’t apply here. Communist subjects are slaves – period.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 3:10 PM
Do you have any idea that when you say “the rest” of our armed forces, you’re talking about THE OTHER 90 PERCENT of our armed forces? — and that’s if you don’t count Reserves, National Guard, etc.
Sure, the best and most mobile of our forces are there and busy now. But that “best,” including the hundreds of thousands of troops who’ve been cycled through over the past 6 years are at least twice as effective as they were before they got all this combat experience.
I’m not sure that the US military is quite as utterly helpless as people like Ron Paul and John Murtha would have you believe.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 3:20 PM
Communist subjects – slaves.
American illegal workers – serfs.
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 3:21 PM
[logis on August 9, 2008 at 3:10 PM]
Well, I think the western meaning relates ownership of one people by another people which tends to disguise a belief that the state owns the people, which is closer to what I implying. Chattel helps some in downplaying the former inference, though it is not fully helpful. Thanks.
Dusty on August 9, 2008 at 3:23 PM
Do you have any idea that when you say THE OTHER 90 PERCENT of our armed forces that while you are technically right as to the basic math you are overlooking a lot of very important factors?
They would have me believe? I only listen to Ron Paul rarely and to Murtha not at all.
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 3:28 PM
American illegal workers – serfs.
[MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 3:21 PM]
American illegal workers = indentured servants that can quit anytime and go home, is a lot closer but even “indentured servant” is not accurate.
Dusty on August 9, 2008 at 3:29 PM
Simply on the basis of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,” I think we should be helping the Georgians.
Oh, wait. The Poot is GWB’s friend.
So never mind all that crap about bombing civilians and sending in tanks. Vlad is a good guy.
But an America being led by someone with some stones and a sense of what this nation stands for would put some heat on the Russkies and turn it up as needed.
Russia has been making threatening noises — over our missle shield plan, for example — and has been making moves for some time. Even the State Department, that bunch of blind, unpatriotic, tea-sipping dreamers, should be able to see that rebuilding the USSR is a major goal for Moscow.
This is not a job for The Messiah. The Poot and his henchmen would laugh Mr Hope&change out of the room.
MrScribbler on August 9, 2008 at 3:29 PM
I would be very surprised if you could find anyone at the Pentagon who sheared your implication that Iraq is only a 10 percenter.
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 3:31 PM
…Turning blue yet?
SilverStar830 on August 9, 2008 at 3:35 PM
The Army is even having trouble coming up with a few measly more brigades for Afghanistan. Our military, Army and Marines anyway, has a full plate as it is now, thanks to Center of the Universe Iraq.
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 3:36 PM
Close enough. You try it some time. John McCain says you can’t do it.
Two Americas.
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 3:39 PM
Video: Russian Tanks Rolling Into Georgia
RushBaby on August 9, 2008 at 3:43 PM
SLighty off topic, but yet another reason to start drilling to force down worldwide oil prices.
Russia exported a little over 5 million barrels a day in 2007, not sure what the current figures are.
Throw in natural gas, well you can do the math.
Bottom line is they export 5 times as much as us, and we import roughly 130 times as much!
reaganaut on August 9, 2008 at 3:43 PM
“That marathon has become an enduring relay and our soldiers continue to run _ and at the double time,” Cody (Army Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Richard Cody) said. “Does this exhaust the body and mind of those in the race, and those who are ever present on the sidelines, cheering their every step? Yes. Has it broken the will of the soldier? No.”
And it’s not just the people that are facing strains.
Military depots have been working in high gear to repair or rebuild hundreds of thousands of pieces of equipment _ from radios to vehicles to weapons _ that are being overused and worn out in harsh battlefield conditions. The Defense Department has asked for $46.5 billion in this year’s war budget to repair and replace equipment damaged or destroyed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Both the Army and Marine Corps have been forced to take equipment from non-deployed units and from pre-positioned stocks to meet needs of those in combat _ meaning troops at home can’t train on the equipment.
National Guard units have only an average of 61 percent of the equipment needed to be ready for disasters or attacks on the U.S., Missouri Democrat Ike Skelton lamented at Wednesday’s hearing of the House Armed Services Committee.
Cody and his Marine counterpart, Gen. Robert Magnus, told the committee they’re not sure their forces could handle a new conflict if one came along.
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 3:46 PM
An annual Pentagon report this year found there was a significant risk that the U.S. military could not quickly and fully respond to another outbreak elsewhere in the world. The classified risk assessment concluded that long battlefield tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, along with persistent terrorist activity and other threats, are to blame.
The review grades the armed services’ ability to meet the demands of the nation’s military strategy _ which would include fighting the current wars as well any potential outbreaks in places such as North Korea, Iran, Lebanon or China.
Similarly, a 400-page January report by the independent Commission on the National Guard and Reserves found the force isn’t ready for a catastrophic chemical, biological or nuclear attack on this country, and National Guard forces don’t have the equipment or training they need for the job.
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 3:49 PM
I haven’t read all of the comments though I agree with many. The EU better take notice since from what I have read Georgia was at the crest of becoming a NATO member. They have fulfilled all the requirements of membership and were waiting for the go. If we do not aid states that are allies and almost members what makes them think we will support members. The article states that Russia also blames the Ukraine for the problems in Georgia. If I were Russia I would go into an Eastern Europian country next to test EU, UN, USA resolve.
sjramos on August 9, 2008 at 3:51 PM
Sorry; I should never have implied that you’re a monomaniacal psychopath.
…I should have just called the authorities and filed the restraining order right off the bat.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 3:57 PM
God help you if he finds out your name.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 3:58 PM
I agree. Even without considering Iraq, I’ve always felt that our military is far too small.
The rush to downsize after the “end” of the Cold War was too quick.
Through the 90s we thought we could get by with technology, more cruise missiles and less boots.
We’ve made these kinds of mistakes before, such as “We don’t need machine guns on planes anymore, we have missiles.”
Russia knows exactly what they can get away with and just how impotent NATO, the UN and much of the west really is.
So does China.
reaganaut on August 9, 2008 at 4:04 PM
To me that’s the craziest part of the whole thing. NATO representatives have said for over a year now that they’re not letting Georgia in because Russia is threatening them.
OK, let’s stop right there: Isn’t protecting nations threatened by Russia the only reason that NATO even exists?
I guess Western European nations spent so long using NATO bases as a way to siphon off US dollars that they’ve completely forgotten that it ever had another function.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Just got back from watching my daughter get her Economics degree.
What I said is that International Law is the Law of the jungle. It is bloody and the survivors lawfully eat the losers as the winners Are the law. For further information for the uneducated, Linh My is my job description not my name.
Linh_My on August 9, 2008 at 4:19 PM
My war was Viet Nam where I served as an adviser. Georgia has several thousand troops who have been doing some serious war fighting alongside the US Army for several years. This makes an excellent cadre force to guide their Reserves.
China launched a similar invasion of Viet Nam in 1979. The Chinese Army was slaughtered. Georgia has some seriously capable soldiers and a large reserve force. We may get our wish.
Linh_My on August 9, 2008 at 4:30 PM
Connie, if the vast majority in Vermont were French Canucks and didn’t wanna be Americans, then yes, good riddance to ‘em. Read Tim’s comment above.
Tony737 on August 9, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Blogs about Ossetia
RushBaby on August 9, 2008 at 4:36 PM
If Georgia is serious about the war, Russia will have to kill roughly 4,600,000 Georgians or else turn tail and run. Baring the use of roughly 100 Nucs, I doubt that Russia can exterminate the population of Georgia. If Georgia is serious nothing less than total extermination will defeat Georgia. The question becomes, “Is Georgia serious?”
Linh_My on August 9, 2008 at 4:38 PM
Very good opinion piece about Georgia from Ralph Peters.
TheEJS on August 9, 2008 at 4:40 PM
Come and take it. Lock and load.
Johan Klaus on August 9, 2008 at 4:41 PM
Your analogy is flawed. American illegal workers are free to leave at any time. No one would stop them. Serfs are defined as
When Tyson sells out to Purdue the workers are not included in the deal.
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 5:08 PM
EXTREMELY INTERESTING
RushBaby on August 9, 2008 at 5:10 PM
MB4: I am curious how it is that you have access to classified risk assessment of the annual Pentagon report that you allude to at 3:49pm.
onlineanalyst on August 9, 2008 at 5:14 PM
The New York Slimes makes the case for the U.S. (and El Presidente) wimping out and letting the Russians trample Georgia.
Now I want to vomit.
MrScribbler on August 9, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Few analogies are perfect. Mine is close enough for
government workillegals and their anti-American scofflaw employersMB4 on August 9, 2008 at 5:18 PM
The BTC pipeline, which cost $3 billion to build, is a key plank of US foreign policy because it reduces Western reliance on oil from both the Middle East and Russia.
RushBaby on August 9, 2008 at 5:18 PM
Does anyone know if Bush’s Pootie Poo has grown a small mustache yet?
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 5:19 PM
Haven’t you learned anything from “viking01″?
I can, using advanced alien technology, hack into any computer system on the planet to advance my devious plots and schemes.
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 5:23 PM
Russia hasn’t changed tactics since WWII. Just go in and wipe out an entire village and then move on to the next one. That’s war folks. There’s no such thing as a “surgical” strike even though we refer to them thusly. It’s not winning the hearts and minds of the locals that’s for sure.
Mojave Mark on August 9, 2008 at 5:29 PM
Some of you are feeding the troll again………
It only encourages he/she/it
Janos Hunyadi on August 9, 2008 at 5:31 PM
I merely implied you had the typical malcontent’s motivation not the intelligence to actually succeed in doing so.
The key to your frustrations is a private matter between you and your inflatable friend.
viking01 on August 9, 2008 at 5:35 PM
So far the sound heard most is…….crickets………so much for “international opinion”.
GarandFan on August 9, 2008 at 5:42 PM
Unfortunately, the service at civil.ge seems to be down right now, but the link above seems to be the best place for breaking news right now.
RushBaby on August 9, 2008 at 6:00 PM
From the NY Times link,
So does this mean that Georgia has a legitimate grievance with Russia and was justified in it’s actions which Russia then used to justify its actions? Seems like a vicious cycle. A bloody one at that.
Yakko77 on August 9, 2008 at 6:08 PM
Rushbaby, if the Georgians destroyed 40 tanks, shot down 10 planes in about 36 hours then the Russians have a lot to worry about imho, in general, not specific to Georgia..
Good for them! That would be nice work.
The bulk of their combat hardened soldiers are in Iraq as far as I knew.
saus on August 9, 2008 at 6:19 PM
Today’s Presidential radio address
No mention of Georgia
logis on August 9, 2008 at 6:31 PM
Logis, video.
Spirit of 1776 on August 9, 2008 at 6:35 PM
Well, the Russians have admitted that a ground attack plane and a strategic bomber have been shot down. Have they lost more? The Cold War mentality left in me that still feels that the Soviets/Russians are an enemy would like to think so as horrible as such thinking might be but there it is.
Still, I’d like to see some images to confirm some of these loses (especially the tanks) otherwise it strikes me as little more than propaganda.
Yakko77 on August 9, 2008 at 6:37 PM
I’m sure the’ve been cycling them through, same as we have.
And I just heard that they’ve recalled their troops from Iraq, and they’ve requested aid from America in shipping them home as fast as possible.
Meanwhile, it appears likely that Russia will try to block off transportation routes into Georgia within the next couple of days.
Oh yeah; it’s gettin’ real ugly, real quick.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 6:56 PM
I’ve read most of the post’s and nobody’s come up with the reason why Georgia is such thorne for the Russians.
A close look at the local map might give an idea. umm
jerrytbg on August 9, 2008 at 7:07 PM
Calculating that the media and world leaders would be partying in Beijing, the Russians ordered North Ossetian militiamen, backed by Russian “peacekeepers” and mercenaries, to provoke the Georgians earlier this month.
Weary of the Russian presence on their soil, the Georgians took the bait. President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered his US-trained military to respond.
That was the excuse the Kremlin wanted. Immediately, a tank brigade from Russia’s 58th Army (the butchers of Chechnya) crossed the international border into Poland – sorry, I meant Georgia.
- Ralph Peters
MB4 on August 9, 2008 at 7:24 PM
[logis on August 9, 2008 at 6:31 PM]
Ugh.
I am kind of bothered now that the sale of meme of being trustworthy, keeping our promises, and being the strong horse in Iraq where neighbors could give a cr$p about it might be put in jeopardy in Eastern Europe and the Caucuses where it has counted since the early 1990’s just because of a slowness to support the Georgians.
I don’t know what exactly to do here, I’m just saying that probably ought to be thought considered as background. I certainly hope that Bush is keeping the border countries apprised of our hard work behind the scenes.
Dusty on August 9, 2008 at 7:45 PM
The Russians always wanted deep warm water ports. Throughout most of the “Cold War” they controlled over or nearly half of the coastline of the Black Sea. With the Ukraine controlling most of the north and west side now ,the only real port they have on said sea is the one at Novorossiysk. They want the one at Poti back.
That port, allows for some very fast transit into deep water. The fact that it’s the furthest east and nearly in the middle of the coast line of that quadrant of the Black Sea makes it the one they want the most. Good distance from both Ukraine and Turkey.
I predict that Georgia will loose its coast and ports before the Russians stop. Making Georgia a land locked Burg.
The timing of this was superb for obvious reasons.
I’m just glad to see our hardware shot a bunch of their jets out of the sky…OHHH YEA!!!
jerrytbg on August 9, 2008 at 8:00 PM
Honestly, I seriously doubt that Bush is going to let Georgia fall to Russia.
If it is true that Georgia shot down 10 Russian planes and destroyed 40 tanks … it causes me to assume that not only did we and the Israelis have trainers on the ground in Georgia, but we also had the military equipment for that training. And that training was directed at the potential for this invasion into Georgia.
Perhaps the silence is orchestrated to allow for Georgia to prove its metal.
Texas Gal on August 9, 2008 at 8:01 PM
One thing you can take to the bank: we will never know what is going on behind the scenes.
RushBaby on August 9, 2008 at 8:19 PM
Well, at least not for 30 years, but ditto that anyway. Oh to be a fly on the wall.
Dusty on August 9, 2008 at 8:25 PM
I,for one, am very grateful that GWB is still in charge at this point and the dolt, obama, is not.
It will be interesting to see how the new man-of-the-world will frame this disturbing event.
Sonosam on August 9, 2008 at 8:28 PM
You betcha!
Personally, I don’t for one minute believe that Bush didn’t see this coming. He has be mentoring Georgia as a democracy and a NATO member. Bush is not going to throw in the towel on Georgia.
BTW Condi’s expertise in on Russia.
Ahhh yes, the wannabe POTUS that thinks he can disarm the world of nuclear weapons and we can all just join hands and sing kumbaya. Putin has done us a favor in that respect.
Texas Gal on August 9, 2008 at 8:41 PM
Oh to be a fly on that wall!
Texas Gal on August 9, 2008 at 8:42 PM
The condemnations won’t come because they know Russia doesn’t care. Here in the U.S., a few known terrorists get waterboarded and we are promptly called torturers, and the tactic is then ceased.
WisCon on August 9, 2008 at 8:54 PM
http://www.amnesty.org/
Nothing about it here, though this made the front page:
WisCon on August 9, 2008 at 8:57 PM
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