Russians bomb Georgian city
posted at 11:40 am on August 9, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Wouldn’t this constitute a war crime, if deliberate? The Russians dropped bombs on the city of Gori today, killing civilians, while announcing that they had taken the capital of South Ossetia back from Georgia. Meanwhile, the US struggles to find a response that will contain the aggression and hostilities, but Georgia has war on its mind:
Russian air attacks over northern Georgia intensified on Saturday morning, striking two apartment buildings in the city of Gori and clogging roads out of the area with fleeing refugees.
Russian authorities said their forces had retaken the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, from Georgian control during the morning hours. They reported that 15 Russian peacekeepers and 1,500 civilians have been killed in the conflict.
Georgian forces shot down 10 Russian combat planes over the last two days, according to Alexander Lomaya, secretary of the Georgian National Security Council.
Shota Utiashvili, an official at the Georgian Interior Ministry, called the attack on Gori a “major escalation,” and said he expected attacks to increase over the course of Saturday. He said some 16 Russian planes were in the air over Georgian territory at any given time on Saturday, four times the number of sorties seen Friday.
The US received howls of criticism for its targeted strikes on insurgents who deliberately hid among civilians in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Even Barack Obama criticized American tactics in the latter, saying that all we were doing was “air raiding villages and killing civilians”. Israel got the same criticism during its war with Hezbollah, which also hid among civilians.
So when will we hear criticism from Obama, MoveOn, and the rest of the critics over these tactics by Russia? Georgia is fielding a uniformed army, clearly identifiable and operating under command of the state. Why does Russia need to bomb civilian centers under these conditions?
The US, meanwhile, has tried talking with both sides, but unsurprisingly have not gotten far with either. Georgia claims that Russia started the war by supporting the separatist attacks and then escalated with their own attacks on Georgia proper; Russia claims that they are only fulfilling their role as peacekeepers and would stop if Georgia withdraws from South Ossetia. The Russians claim that the US got taken aback by Georgia’s actions, praising our efforts to defuse the crisis but noting that those efforts proved fruitless.
We need to get both sides to stop fighting long enough to come back to the table. Clearly, the Russian involvement in South Ossetia and Abkhazia has proven too much of a provocation for peace to return in the long term. John McCain’s idea of a foreign force might be a better plan, if we can negotiate that with Russia and Georgia. However, with our support of Kosovo’s independence, we had better be prepared for Russian support of independence for these two states, a complication I warned about in March. We set the precedent, and the Russians followed suit.
Update: Here’s the video of Obama ripping American tactics in Afghanistan:
I await with bated breath his swift and merciless condemnation of Russian tactics.
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The US and EU have little leverage with Russia after signing off on Kosovo’s independence.
If South Ossetia wants to break off from Georgia, who are the US and the EU to say no at this point? :P
Vatican Watcher on August 9, 2008 at 11:43 AM
If Georgia were a Muslim country, there would be plenty of outcry.
forest on August 9, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Ed, do you ever take a break???
E9RET on August 9, 2008 at 11:46 AM
If Georgia can break away from Russia, why can’t S.O. break away from Georgia?
Tony737 on August 9, 2008 at 11:46 AM
A war crime is whatever the winner decides it to be.
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 11:47 AM
Or Hollywood actors… Oh wait, that’s right.
They only hate the American military..
UncleOlaf on August 9, 2008 at 11:47 AM
and probably the Georgians too as they are fighting alongside us in Iraq. I have no words. The pictures are chilling.
Glynn on August 9, 2008 at 11:50 AM
Bluntly, there will be very little we can do about this one.
michaelo on August 9, 2008 at 11:50 AM
Hmm, 1500 civilians killed in 48 hrs, compared to 1000 civilians killed in over a month of fighting with Hezbollah, more than 7-800 of them being hezbollah fighters as estimated by the IDF..
It is hard to explain how Israel dominated the news media in regards to the fighting then, compared to the almost zero out cry here. Thank you for highlighting this Ed. The issue is not so much war crimes as people will inevitably be affected in wars terribly and tragically, the issue is the double standard you point out against America, & the triple standard against Israel. I know why Media hates Israel, but why does Media also hate America?
saus on August 9, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Then by this logic you support part of Texas returning to Mexico?
TooTall on August 9, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Russia has been secretly building up its forces to be able to bully without regard of American interference for the past few years. In addition China has done the same thing icluding a death grip over our economy by holding trillions of our debt. Under continuous assault on our military by the left/democrats and uncontrolled spending by Congress we have become weakened until we have become a eunuch on the world stage. If Obama wins, he win finish the job the left has been after for years. Life as we know it could cease to exist if we do not change our course.
volsense on August 9, 2008 at 11:56 AM
Here is the Russian take:
http://en.fondsk.ru/article.php?id=1530
The Russians are calling themselves “Peace Keepers”.
TheSitRep on August 9, 2008 at 11:58 AM
If you recall Texas did secede from the union once already. Didn’t try to join Mexico but I think most Texans, at the time, supported the action.
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 11:59 AM
10 Russian planes shot down? Tell us more…
T J Green on August 9, 2008 at 11:59 AM
Yes, but the so-called “international community” won’t say a word because they know the Russians won’t take criticism from a bunch of feckless weenies* as nicely as we would.
*(EU and UN, I’m looking at you.)
irishspy on August 9, 2008 at 11:59 AM
Um, question….
Why do we call the Russians who are there Peacekeepers?
They set up the insurgency, then sent in troops to keep the peace? Gee, I always called that in INVASION.
Romeo13 on August 9, 2008 at 12:00 PM
Democrat friendly communists have nothing to worry about. Bombs away.
tarpon on August 9, 2008 at 12:03 PM
Might be wishful thinking on my part, but if the Georgian Army has been as well trained by the US Army as is claimed, Russia may learn what China learned when China Invaded Viet Nam in 1979.
It is insanity to invade a determined small country with a good Army when that small country thinks that it is facing destruction. The alternatives quickly become retreat or Genocide.
Linh_My on August 9, 2008 at 12:03 PM
When does Obama wave his magic wand to stop this? When?! When?! Please Barack, do it now!
ParisParamus on August 9, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Code Pink could not be reached for comment.
CurtZHP on August 9, 2008 at 12:06 PM
Putin has been building up to this for a long time while the West — including our own Jorge Bush — have winked and looked the other way. The Poot is Bush’s buddy, after all.
We have no credible authority to say anything about this; certainly we have no will to back up any threats of sanctions, force, etc.
Osama Obama and Bush have both taken the “statesman-like” path here, remaining carefully neutral and wistfully hoping for “peace.” The old “both sides should…” bit gets no results.
McCain takes a more sensible approach, calling it correctly and telling the Russians they should get out now. For that, he is branded as some sort of dinosaur, a hard-line cold-warrior.
We need leaders with McCain’s resolve and moral courage to stand up for what’s right, and we need them now.
MrScribbler on August 9, 2008 at 12:08 PM
It has long been clear that Mr. Putin would prefer the Soviet Union had not disintegrated.
whitetop on August 9, 2008 at 12:09 PM
Putin will crush the opposition. Resistance is futile.
Is the, ummm, UN doing anything about this?
petefrt on August 9, 2008 at 12:09 PM
Sounds like someone has read Huig de Groot (Hugo Grotius)
Linh_My on August 9, 2008 at 12:10 PM
Yep, I do recall. I also recall the results of the attempt.
TooTall on August 9, 2008 at 12:11 PM
I read reports that most of the bombs hit military targets so cant say for certain that this was a deliberate act.
William Amos on August 9, 2008 at 12:11 PM
Russian bombs = good.
American bombs = bad.
Don’t you people remember? Reagan was the bad guy?
The rooskies have nothing to worry about.
International community. Pffft!
catmman on August 9, 2008 at 12:13 PM
How long must these hostilities continue before Russia has no more air force, sixty days? Fifty?
Akzed on August 9, 2008 at 12:13 PM
So we are supposed to believe the Georgian lies and not the Russian lies?
BL@KBIRD on August 9, 2008 at 12:14 PM
this could get worse.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:14 PM
For US liberals, only if George Bush were the President of Russia.
Just as soon as both sides don’t want to fight, it’ll stop.
If the Bear wants Georgia back (we know they do (thats why the US is involved)of course) the creating of a few million refugees could occur.
Speakup on August 9, 2008 at 12:15 PM
I hate the UN, but for the sake of argument we went into Iraq with UN approval after Saddam violated fifteen UN resolutions. Again, screw the UN, but Russia hasn’t even this much of a patina of legitimacy for these actions. This action has the same level of legitimacy as their incursion into Afghanistan.
Akzed on August 9, 2008 at 12:17 PM
I`m surprised that “The Ones” words had no apparent affect.
Damn, I`m such a racist. :)
ThePrez on August 9, 2008 at 12:18 PM
Stalin kills 50 million. Meh.
Pol Pot kills, what, 3-4 million, maybe more. Meh.
North Korea starves millions. Meh.
Red China HOSTS the Olympics. Of course!
Iran hangs homosexuals. Meh.
United States fire ONE Hellfire missile at a Taliban “wedding party”. “Impeach!”, “The War Is Lost”, “We’re creating more terrorists than we’re killing!”, “Bush Lied, People Died!”, “Redeploy!”
catmman on August 9, 2008 at 12:19 PM
Georgia used to be a Russian slave state. Under what kind of twisted logic does Russia assume it has some kind of right to act as “peacekeeper” now. If anything, Russia has LESS right to intervene than does any other country on earth.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 12:20 PM
this is interesting reading all your comments.
Kosovo was not wanted yet Clinton still did it. Iraq wasn’t wanted but Bush still did it. Desert Storm wasn’t wanted yet Bush Sr did it. All of these were Oked by the UN.
Afgahnistan is one of the few that the UN called the United States for help.
But when it comes to this, I really think the Unites States needs to stay out of it. And just watch. See what the Russians do and don’t have, as well as what the Georgian’s have… aircraft, weapons, other military items.
Maybe it is just me… But I am glad Georgia and Russia are ignoring us… and maybe our leaders need to take the hint. And if the UN says we need to get involved, that is a problem that is waiting to become worse.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:22 PM
Here is a test to see how the EU deals with allies under siege. The USSR has no trouble rumbling tanks wherever they want, and did so fifty years ago into Eastern Europe with the rest of Europe hiding under their beds.
The USSR (aka Russia) is everything America haters claim we are, yet they say nothing since the Red Bear isn’t listening.
I hope we support Georgia however we can since the Eastern Europeans know that if this doesn’t turn out well, they might be next, again.
Hening on August 9, 2008 at 12:23 PM
At this time our hands are tied, we can pursue a diplomatic course but that is about it. I believe the EU will have to step up and take the lead in ending this. On the other hand we can send “Military Advisors” to assist Georgia and end up fighting Russia by Proxy. The American people would never stand for it and in an election year no politician will endorse it. So, Russia has until January to entrench themselves and / or reclaim Georgia as part of a new USSR. My gut feeling is there is a new cold war coming with a newly invigorated military funded by $120+ bbl oil money. But then, I could be wrong
Guest1.1 on August 9, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Sorry to disappoint but have never read anything by or about him that I recall. Had to google his name from your post in fact.
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Umm I doubt Russia wants anything from Europe as a whole. They are pissed off at Americans and maybe bombing Georgia is the way to get the United States involved so they can call full out war.
Russia hates (as in its leaders) America… they don’t care about Europe.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:26 PM
Oldnuke,
I took an Introduction to International Law Course at the Far East Division of the University of Maryland in the mid 1970’s. As far as I can tell, International has only become murkier since de Groot described it.
Linh_My on August 9, 2008 at 12:30 PM
But I am glad Georgia and Russia are ignoring us
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:22 PM
Georgia is far from ignoring the US. They are crying out for help. We just trained their military, and they were fighting next to us in Iraq. Now they are pulling out of Iraq to fight and protect their families back home.
Russia isn’t ignoring us since this is being excused as retaliation for us training the Georgians. Russia is sending a message to the USA and our allies that border Russia. That message is “I’m back!!”.
Georgia has shown a lot of guts being our close ally and has put troops in Iraq when other allies have condemned us. They wish to be part of NATO, and Russia will never stand for that.
Russia remains our dangerous enemy, and ally with Iran and China.
Hening on August 9, 2008 at 12:31 PM
This isn’t about international law BTW.
That is something that no one seems to get at this moment in time.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Hmmm… interesting question…
What are the other EX soviet states doing? Anything?
Last thing any of them want is an emboldened resurgent Russia… toooooo much history there going back hundreds of years.
Are the Polish and such sitting this out?
Romeo13 on August 9, 2008 at 12:33 PM
I would listen to the case of anyone who wanted to secede and go their own way – as long as they made that case peacefully.
But if Mexican troops troops had invaded and were fomenting the revolution? You’d have to be an idiot to stand by and do nothing but listen to their rationalizations.
And when it’s not Mexico, but RUSSIA that’s trying to divvy up its former empire, the word “idiot” doesnt’ even cut it anymore – somebody’s going to have to come up with a whole new word for that.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Russia has as much right as their military power and their will give them. In other words if they’re strong enough and they have the will to persevere they can do whatever they want no matter what others think or say about them.
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Check out my name and figure out where I live. I should STILL be part of Russia.. and guess what they are pissed off about that too!
They have made threats to the U.S. concerning the missles that have here at Greely and a few other places around the State but the U.S. ignored them.
You don’t think I know anything about russia…. maybe you should come up here and see how many Russians are moving here and then tell me what I do and don’t know.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Why anyone continues to think Russian culture and philosophy would change by having an elected leader and especially after Grozny, is beyond me. Russians leaders care about demographics and geography. People, theirs included, not so much.
Dusty on August 9, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Then by this logic you support part of Texas returning to Mexico? – Toot all
Way to miss the point. I’ll be more elaborate: If the Georgians think it’s okie dokie for THEM to split from Russia (which I agree with because Russia took Georgia by force in the 1700s, I think …?) then why do they NOT think it’s okie dokie for S.O. to break away from Georgia? If the Georgians want to be independent from Russia (which I’m all for and has nothing to do with Texas) and we support that, then why can’t the S.O.’s be independent of Georgia? It’s the same thing only smaller. If the people of S.O. want to reunite with Russia, let ‘em, and there’d be no war. Georgia was artificially annexed by Russia, now Georgia is doing the same thing to S.O. retroactively. So, I ask, for the Georgia point of view, if you can do it, why can’t they?
BTW, Texas is not returning Mexico, Mexico is returning to Texas.
Tony737 on August 9, 2008 at 12:36 PM
does any sane person want the inexperienced obama to take the helm of the lone superpower/policeman of the world and defender of the free world in an age of islamo-terror and russian adventurism and a growing nuke threat from iran!??!!?!?
no sane person can support obama.
reliapundit on August 9, 2008 at 12:36 PM
They are happy as heck they are going to have a missle defense system under the U.S.
Do you really think they want to screw that up? That is easy money for them that they NEVER got under Russia. And they can start rebuilding that country to make it look more like areas of Germany. I don’t see anyone in Poland or the guy I work with who is from there who wants it screwed up by the Russians.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:37 PM
True. It’s about nature filling a vacuum. The power vacuum left when the Soviet empire collapsed.
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 12:37 PM
Dusty you are correct. Claiming the “North Pole” was just about 8 months ago or so….
I guess people forget.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:38 PM
What de Groot said from his observation of international at the time, was that International Law is what the Winner says it is. I did take a course in International Law and don’t really believe that anything has changed in the last several hundred years. You are attacking someone who is on your side of the discussion and don’t know enough about International Law to even be aware of it.
Linh_My on August 9, 2008 at 12:40 PM
I’ve been following the massive international demonstrations demanding peace. I’m especially impressed with the demonstrations and outspoken demands of American groups like CodePink. Truly breathtaking.
johnsteele on August 9, 2008 at 12:41 PM
I am not attacking you. I am not sure where you live either nor do I care.
But i know one thing.. Russians do not care about law. Just trust me on this. If they did, WTF are they doing the stuff they are doing right now? As well as harrassing China, and our US Naval Ships? And flying into Alaskan Airspace? Sweetie, you don’t seem to get it.
I live in Alaska… and I think your “international law” will have no effect when it becomes another war. Do you see the problem here?
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Question becomes will the other Ex Soviet satelite states support Georgia with men or material?
NATO won’t IMO… we’re busy and overextended… although a flight of F-22s in the area sure would swing the air war…
So…. will the other minor states in the area see this land grab by Russia as enough of a threat to get involved?
Romeo13 on August 9, 2008 at 12:45 PM
Didn’t Barry just priase JFK for not abandoning Berlin to the Russians.
This guy is a true fraud and there are no shortage of mindless idiots to vote for him.
RobCon on August 9, 2008 at 12:46 PM
Linh_My on August 9, 2008 at 12:47 PM
Which by the “standards” of some, means we can’t do anything about anything else.
aikidoka on August 9, 2008 at 12:48 PM
No.
Civilian populations are legitimate wartime targets, depending on the level of warfare you’re using. We did it many times in WWII, as did the Axis powers, and the war crimes tribunals only mentioned the genocide attempts and abuses of captured civilian/military people. This is the same as My Lai in Vietnam…only after the capture of the village did they commit war crimes. We threatened to do it all throughout the Cold War with nukes…it was our stated policy…and nobody made any (legitimate) war crimes accusations then, either.
It is our own Rules of Engagement (set for each conflict) and US Law of Armed Conflict (which we voluntarily enacted) that place civilian populations off the target lists. The Russians set their own RoE and don’t have the LOAC.
It’s impossible for the US to conduct a war in this manner anymore, due to public opinion…but it isn’t a war crime to do so…nor is it a war crime to do any of the things that people hyperventilate about with the things our own military (and President) has done.
Of course, there is indeed a terrible double standard where US military conduct is concerned. Your point, as amended here, does hold water.
James on August 9, 2008 at 12:48 PM
I see where you are going. IMHO I think that the little States may keep quiet and hope it is not them next. As for Georgia, if I remember right it was the bigger of the split offs and they were more like the leaders.
I don’t think that the smaller States will band with Georgia.. but then you never know.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:48 PM
There was never a regime change in Russia. The Soviets didn’t come into being the day they invaded Checkoslovakia. They were fomenting revolutions under the cover of World War 1, and they’ve been doing it ever since.
A weird sort of belief has developed that, just because the Russian Empire suffered an economic collapse, its leadership has now gained Absolute Moral Authority regarding world affairs in general.
And as if that weren’t bad enough, I now find that Russia is claiming a right to Manifest Destiny over its former slave states. And some people are actually taking this seriously? That’s not just stupid; that’s insane.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 12:48 PM
One thing several of the ex-Soviet states did was join NATO. Which I thought was a good move on their part.
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Joel Rosenberg’s take
Ordinary1 on August 9, 2008 at 12:49 PM
They didn’t bomb Gori to instigate war with the US. They did it because that is who they are. With all the tech advancements, the evolving of war strategy and tactics, or the benefits they would reap in a change in approach to governing, don’t mean diddley because it doesn’t mesh with what they think is important and how best to get what they want. Their form of government may have changed, but they haven’t.
I have no idea what Russia’s long term plan is but bombing Gori is at a minimum a) to teach the Georgians not to kill Russian soldiers, and b) give Georgians an example of why they should quit. It has nothing to do with the US. It’s a brutal foreign policy message sent to Georgia.
Dusty on August 9, 2008 at 12:51 PM
I am going to say this once and then ignore you for being an idiot.
When in any wars has anyone gone off the international laws ver batum? Also, please tell me if the international laws are so forth right, why are those who are fighting for Allah let off lightly.
You see… international law is a joke. And you my friend have no effing clue about life outside the U.S.A.
Please don’t bother to post back to me… you seriously think the world is perfect and look thru rose tinted glasses.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Dusty you forgot the biggest one. Take their Natural Resources!
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Does anyone know the whereabouts of John Kerry, or John Murtha? /Sarcasm
byteshredder on August 9, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Silly goose, it ain’t the Americans or the Israelis doing it so it don’t count as a war crime.
mjk on August 9, 2008 at 12:59 PM
C’mon Upinak, I don’t think that’s what he/she was saying. I could be wrong but I think you may have misinterpreted. Calm down now and take a sip of coffee. I’m having monsooned Malabar this morning :-)
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 12:59 PM
I always wish the Russians ill; this is from being born and bred a Cold Warrior Army guy. However, I really hope that our Special Forces are out of harm’s way. When you hear that we have things like ‘military advisors’ in an area, you can bet good money it’s the Special Forces; most specifically, and quite probably, the 10th SFG. I’m also hoping the Russians have as good a time fighting in Georgia, as they did in Afghanistan. I’d really laugh, though, if Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Turkmenistan, the Ukraine and Uzbekistan all suddenly dog-piled in to help in the fight against the very same Red Menace that oppressed them for decades.
Virus-X on August 9, 2008 at 1:00 PM
Actually I didn’t miss your point. I chose that example because I mistakenly thought it might appeal to your own patriotic instincts.
The facility in your point is that I don’t remember (correct me if I’m wrong) any armed invasion by a third party when Georgia withdrew from the Soviet Union.
Good point about Mexico returning to Texas however.
TooTall on August 9, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Charles Krauthammer seemed to think this would be over in a couple of days. I hope so, but I have my doubts. There is no way Georgia can hold out against Russia for any length of time.
Terrye on August 9, 2008 at 1:01 PM
“…In a style reminiscent of ‘Jengis Khan.’” Hey, how about a style reminiscent of RUSSIA? Oh, I guess they don’t any the connection there.
Think back: when is the last time you heard any liberal leader criticize ANYTHING Russia has ever done. And I don’t mean just since the fall of the Berlin Wall either. Go back 100 years; the Soviet Union was never an “empire” to liberals; it was a noble experiment that failed. And they’d love more than anything a chance for another try (what would it be now, the 200th?) at finally making “real Communism” work.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Ewwww! Well heck, I have had tropical depressions up here all dang summer. I have a summer cold and the BF does too.. poor guy is worse then I am. And we have hail the size of large marbles last night that haven’t melted yet which is rare for up here. I am also in a little cabin and right now I can’t make a fire because all the wood is wet. UGH… coffee is the only thing making me stay warm, other then the BF and his Temp right now.
But Old, I am just trying to get through this persons head.. laws don’t work in a war like situation. Unless you are the US and we have too because we are the superior ones I guess.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 1:04 PM
I don’t know what to think here, as much as I know Russia as being an aggressor here, I also don’t want to gloss over anything Georgian forces may have done. Yet again, Russia is an emerging autocrat State and Georgia a developing Democracy, should the difference matter? I don’t know.
I’m divided.
DanStark on August 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM
Now I realize Krauthammer didn’t voice my amendments to your quote above but I think it illustrates my point. In theory I agree it would seem illogical that Georgia could hold out long but stranger things have happened.
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 1:13 PM
You have to assume that morale in the Russian military is a lot lower now than it was in the 1970’s. Even whatever they’re calling the Spetsnaz nowadays no longer has the same ideological purity. If this looks like a replay of Soviet aggression to US, just imagine how it must look to THEM!
On the other hand, the remnants of the KGB are still the true believers they always were – they have to be; they have nothing else. The only difference is that now they are more desperate; therefore they’re more dangerous.
So it’s easy to see Russia fomenting this revolution. But holding territory against a determined resistance? The Russians weren’t nearly as “invincible” as the American left painted them throughout all of the last century – and they’re even less so now.
There’s a HUGE difference between maintaining a competant territorial defense force and mounting an invasion. But I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see volunteers showing up by the millions.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 1:13 PM
There’s a report that Russia is claiming that Ukraine is providing support for Georgia.
This could get nasty quick.
Russia clearly wants to use this to send a signal to those republics that they better not align themselves with the West.
SteveMG on August 9, 2008 at 1:15 PM
Yeah, I’m going to have to disagree here. There is a difference between total war and the stuff we are engaged in today. Civilians are not legitimate targets and should never be intentionally targeted. Now that doesn’t mean military leaders can’t make calculated decisions on whether a target poses a risk with the possibility of civilians being harmed, yet it doesn’t mean outright intentional targeting of civilians.
DanStark on August 9, 2008 at 1:18 PM
I’m pretty sure he/she was agreeing with you. Just pointing out that this jurist Groot or Grotius or whatever said pretty much the same thing I did about the winner deciding what was what.
Sorry about the BF wish him well and feed him chicken soup :-)
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 1:18 PM
Ed, I personally don’t think that the two would be comparable at this point in time at the least. If I recall correctly, the war between Serbia and Kosovo was brought to a halt by UN intervention and for about 10 years the UN has had peacekeepers in Kosovo. As a result Kosovo had had a UN supervised and EU oversight temporary government while Kosovo and Serbia tried to work out some agreement to reunite. And if I recall the last offer that Serbia made to Kosovo was rather slim and mostly reduced them to a profit making enterprise with no right to negotiate anything independently. At that point Kosovo rejected the offer and declared itself independent.
I don’t see this situation in South Ossetia the same, not yet. And it does seem to me that Russia has plotted to instigate this from all the very good information that was provided on the previous thread. (thank you participants)
I do hope that the other Eastern European nations of the former USSR will step up and support Georgia against Russia’s aggression by recognizing that their silence could be detrimental to their independence.
Texas Gal on August 9, 2008 at 1:19 PM
You got that right! A tiny spark can result in a raging uncontrolled forest fire. Of course if you dump enough water on it quick enough you can put it out.
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 1:22 PM
I think it’s time to send a message to the Russian Thugocracy by backing Georgia in earnest with matériel and intel. This is unacceptable. If we give here what next? Ukraine? Czech Republic? Why not Poland and the rest of the eastern block?
ronsfi on August 9, 2008 at 1:23 PM
While yes, it could get worse, it looks pretty nasty already.
ronsfi on August 9, 2008 at 1:23 PM
Old, he is a former Marine. You think I can make him do anything? I am surprized he let me give him OJ this morning before I tucked him back into bed like a burrito!
But this Russia crap worries me. Russia has been playing on this line for a few years now to see where they stand anywhere in the world. This is just the first step to see what the rest of the world will do. I just hope the world wakes up and puts the bullies down…
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 1:25 PM
Side note (sort of): notice one name that’s barely mentioned in all the reports regarding this state of affairs: Medvedev. I guess the charade is over.
baldilocks on August 9, 2008 at 1:26 PM
We know as the media knows, he is just a sock puppet.
upinak on August 9, 2008 at 1:27 PM
We’re not talking about the Austrio-Hungarian Empire here. We’re talking about ONE COUNTRY. Russia can stop this anytime they want. They have no defense treaties with anyone else. If there’s any piling on, it’s only going to be in one direction.
logis on August 9, 2008 at 1:28 PM
… I mistakenly thought it might appeal to your own patriotic instincts. – Toot
That’s what I mean, this is like apples and oranges, the Texas comparison is irrelavent. As mentioned above, if Mexican troops entered Texas to assist in it’s seceeding from the U.S., then we’d have a comparison. And yes, in that case my patriotic instincts would kick in. I’m as patriotic as one can be, however, if almost the entire population of Texas was Mexican and they wanted to return to Mexico and *voted on it*, well that would suck, but oh well, bye bye. We’d lose a lot of oil, huge military bases and lots of cattle, but if the population
considers itself Mexican, then there’s not much you can do about it. Unless you advocate ethnic-cleansing? Civil War 2? Nope, it’d be Mexican-American War 2.
Tony737 on August 9, 2008 at 1:29 PM
1,500 civilians killed in two days?!
Jaibones on August 9, 2008 at 1:29 PM
Disagree if you will, but remember what I said about public opinion…you’re just giving yours. That doesn’t change the actual reality of the legitimacy of targets vis a vis war crimes.
James on August 9, 2008 at 1:32 PM
I believe that refers to the toll during the entire conflict. At least thats how I read it.
ronsfi on August 9, 2008 at 1:33 PM
Well this is the Wests chance, with the proper maneuvering we can display to Russia that their actions will not be tolerated. Namely, we need to see a reaction from East Europe, a strong one. That’s the key, even Russian propaganda wont be able to save Russia’s reputation if a huge reaction from their former republics strongly condemns, and even promises aid to Georgia.
Even an insane Russian response of threatening invasion of the former republics would be fruitless. As everyone knows Russia does not have that large a capability any longer, and would undoubtedly see an international response, at least from the U.S. and U.K.
Blacksoda on August 9, 2008 at 1:34 PM
[logis on August 9, 2008 at 12:48 PM]
Agreed. I left it more general because, while I think the inculcation of Soviet communist thinking informs their actions, who the Russians are goes back much further than something that happened in 1917. People are a resource for the state to use. Russia is just diminishing Georgian resources.
Dusty on August 9, 2008 at 1:34 PM
Thousands of Georgian soldiers have been serving in Iraq since August 2003. They are the third-largest contributor to the coalition. Last year, a Georgian major was quoted as saying:
“Of course, this is to Georgia’s benefit. Achieving peace in this region would be very important not only for Georgia, but for all of the nations in the coalition,” he said. It’s important, he continued, “that the Iraqi people succeed in normalizing and continuing life. This affects us directly. This task is connected to our own well-being back in Georgia.”
source
RushBaby on August 9, 2008 at 1:36 PM
I think not bye bye. The Civil War settled that point. I’m afraid it’s blood in, blood out with the USofA.
ronsfi on August 9, 2008 at 1:37 PM
Well for one thing the Czech Republic and Poland are both members of NATO as are several other ex Eastern block countries. An attack by Russia on any of them would result in a pile on by a large portion of the industrialized World including the United States. I don’t think they’re ready for that right now. What makes you think that the US is not giving intel aid to Georgia as we speak?
Oldnuke on August 9, 2008 at 1:38 PM
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