Obama: “America is no longer what it once was”; Update: Rush reacts

posted at 11:25 am on August 7, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

When presidential candidates answer questions from children about why they want the job, most will give an answer that uplifts the child and the candidate.  Not Barack Obama.  At a campaign stop in Elkhart, Indiana, a seven-year-old girl asked the Democrat why he wants to be President — and he told her that America has gone downhill:

“America is …, uh, is no longer, uh … what it could be, what it once was. And I say to myself, I don’t want that future for my children.”

Sound familiar? Michelle Obama sounded similar themes earlier in the campaign:

“Sometimes it’s easier to hold onto your own stereotypes and misconceptions. It makes you feel justified in your ignorance. That’s America.”

“Let me tell you something. For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country, because it feels like hope is making a comeback.”

Everyone feels that we can improve ourselves, but we don’t usually cast it in terms of the country no longer being what it once was. Coming from the Obamas, that doesn’t even make sense. They have talked about how difficult it was to break through barriers, not without some justification, to reach this point in their lives and American history.

Doesn’t that speak to the point that we continue to grow and to learn? And if not, which “good old days” did Obama mean? The 1980s? I doubt it, and if he means the Clinton era, then why did he run against Hillary in the first place?

Once again, Obama got off the teleprompter and put his foot directly in his mouth. He’s not selling Hope, he’s selling Despair, and himself as the snake oil that will cure us of all our ills.

Update: Maybe that seven-year-old was just another John McCain proxy.

Update II: Rush says it all in this clip:

LIMBAUGH: Alright, now here’s he’s brought it home. He had trashed his country in Germany, he has seen the result of that in his plummeting poll numbers. And now he does it again in Elkhart, IN. A 7 year old little girl. You’re running for President Sen. Obama, a little girl asks you a question, “Why did you start running for President?”

It’s a 7 year old Senator. Ya tell her because you love the country. You tell her because this is the greatest place on Earth. That we’ve got challenges, but you want to help the country through it. You don’t tell a 7 year old that her country isn’t what it once was. You do not lie to 7 year olds and tell them that your country sucks. You just don’t do it Senator.

America’s no longer what it could be? What it once was? How the Hell would you know Sir? Your experience has only been in one part of America. Elite, leftist academia.


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As Rush also said…….he said it because that is what he was taught from gradeschool up thru community organizer on into Ill. Congress….

Obama is a “learner”, not a thinker….he repeats things he has learned only

sbark on August 8, 2008 at 8:30 AM

This clown can’t even maintain the simplest integrity and honesty within the same comment thread. I don’t understand why you guys are indulging him so much. If he even actually was a vet, he’s proven he has no honor by the organizations he claims to belong to. Django on August 7, 2008 at 11:14 PM

Good morning Django,

If you’ll please note the context of my post as it was written [below], you’ll notice I was paraphrasing El Rushbo.

Rush: “…America’s no longer what it could be? What it once was? How the Hell would you know Sir? Your experience has only been in one part of America. Elite, leftist academia.”

J_Gocht: “How the Hell would you know Sir? ”You managed to sit out your generation’s war with a “painful Pilonial cyst” along with President Bush doin’ “blow” in TANG

The fact that he [Rush] “sat” out the Vietnam War and the fact, that George W. Bush was removed from flight status due to his failure to take the required drug test; are truthful statements.

Stating truthful facts concerning specific known actions or lack thereof, by individuals; is good journalism Django, not adhominem attack.

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 8:37 AM

Pilonial cyst

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 8:37 AM

What be a “Pilonial cyst”?

You must mean a “Pilonidal cyst” there Sarge.

A “Pilonidal cyst” is “is a cyst at the bottom of the tailbone (coccyx) that can become infected and filled with pus. Once infected, the technical term is pilonidal abscess. Pilonidal abscesses look like a large pimple at the bottom of the tailbone, just above the crack of the buttocks”.

It’s a pimple on ones el Rushbo-bo-bo!

(A doctor could have taken care of that in 5 minutes.)

But Sir el Rushbo was too elite to go over to RVN with the peons like you, Sarge.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 8:58 AM

Good Lord man, why not? Don’t all the “Great Americans” commenting here make you proud? MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 5:14 AM

Absolutely MB4! All the “Great Americans” commenting here make me very proud. The fact we have the opportunity to freely post our thoughts and beliefs is a remarkable freedom we enjoy in our great Country.

To understand why I am not as proud as I was in 1999 ferinstance; was defined by my post on page [2] “… J_Gocht on August 7, 2008 at 5:19 PM “

You must pursue the embedded links to fully understand my concerns and my perceived loss of bothe individual and community freedoms.

The present executive branch has been acting in an extra constitutional manner, outside the bounds envisioned by the Founding Fathers and without appropriate consultation and consent of the congress.

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 9:01 AM

The present executive branch has been acting in an extra constitutional manner, outside the bounds envisioned by the Founding Fathers and without appropriate consultation and consent of the congress.

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 9:01 AM

We hear praise of a power-wielding, arm-twisting President who “gets his program through Congress” by knowing the use of power. Throughout the course of history, there have been many other such wielders of power. There have even been dictators who regularly held plebiscites, in which their dictatorships were approved by an Ivory-soap-like percentage of the electorate. But their countries were not free, nor can any country remain free under such despotic power. Some of the current worship of powerful executives may come from those who admire strength and accomplishment of any sort. Others hail the display of Presidential strength simply because they approve of the result reached by the use of power. This is nothing less than the totalitarian philosophy that the end justifies the means If ever there was a philosophy of government totally at war with that of the Founding Fathers, it is this one.
- Barry “Mr. Conservative” Goldwater

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 9:04 AM

You must pursue the embedded links to fully understand my concerns and my perceived loss of bothe individual and community freedoms.

I must?

mymanpotsandpans on August 8, 2008 at 9:07 AM

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 9:01 AM

Your ad hominem attack on Rush does not dismiss his correct argument that Obama (May He Live Forever) doesn’t know enough to judge when America was better. In fact, you cannot counter his argument. Only Obama (May He Live Forever) can. So this entire Vietnam/Draft/Limbaugh canard is nothing but a red herring.

However, I will give credit to you, or rather take credit away from many of the posters here for falling for your tactics and getting into a flame war with you, which was obviously your intent.

But you’re off topic.

By the way, what was your MOS?

fossten on August 8, 2008 at 9:08 AM

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 8:58 AM

Thanks for the heads-up on the spelling. As I have stated previous occasions; my spell checker, “she who must be obeyed” was out of the room at the time I posted.

As to the medical procedure Rush could have endured to correct his condition; I leave that to your description since I have no specific medical knowledge concerning “Pilonial cysts”.

As to my posting that “Rush sat out the Vietnam War”; perhaps I should have written…”Rush stood out the Vietnam War”!

Drive on…!

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 9:11 AM

So this entire Vietnam/Draft/Limbaugh canard is nothing but a red herring.

Are you sure that Limbaugh is not a yellow bellied blowfish?

By the way, what was your MOS?

fossten on August 8, 2008 at 9:08 AM

I could be wrong but I think he was Army Special Forces.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 9:12 AM

It wasn’t my war! You asked me, I didn’t ask you! And I did what I had to do to win! And I come back to the internet and I see all these maggots at Hotair, protesting me, spitting. Calling me jerk and douche and all kinds of vile crap! Who are they to protest me? Who are they? Unless they’ve been me and been there and know what the hell they’re yelling about!
- Sargent J_Gocht

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 9:19 AM

I could be wrong but I think he was Army Special Forces.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 9:12 AM

So you don’t know what MOS is either, eh?

fossten on August 8, 2008 at 9:20 AM

America has gone downhill because of socialists like Obama.
Michelle has fallen off the radar hasnt she? Is she under lock and key in a hotel room someplace? Bound and gagged maybe? Will she be let out before or after the election?

abcurtis on August 8, 2008 at 9:25 AM

So you don’t know what MOS is either, eh?

fossten on August 8, 2008 at 9:20 AM

Don’t be disingenuous as that is not what I said.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 9:27 AM

America has gone downhill because of socialists like Obama.
Michelle has fallen off the radar hasnt she? Is she under lock and key in a hotel room someplace? Bound and gagged maybe? Will she be let out before or after the election?

abcurtis on August 8, 2008 at 9:25 AM

RAAAAAAACIST!

fossten on August 8, 2008 at 9:27 AM

So you don’t know what MOS is either, eh?

fossten on August 8, 2008 at 9:20 AM

Do you mean “don’t know what MOS is either, eh” or did you mean “don’t know [for certain] what his MOS is either, eh”?

I know what mine was for certain. 1193. What was yours?

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 9:30 AM

“…many of the posters here for falling for your tactics and getting into a flame war with you, which was obviously your intent.
But you’re off topic.
By the way, what was your MOS? fossten on August 8, 2008 at 9:08 AM

Dear fossten, I do not consider civil discourse “flaming”.

Back in the olden days [1962] my PMOS [primary] was initially [051] changed to [054B]
Some might now say [054BS] ;)… and today it would be [18E] SF Commo Sgt.

I was also crosstrained in: [18B] weapons, [18C] demo and [18F] ops and intel.

Drive on…!

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 9:36 AM

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 9:30 AM

05K, later changed to 98K. I was in Germany during the Gulf War, my unit went to Saudi. Where did you serve?

fossten on August 8, 2008 at 9:41 AM

Where did you serve?

fossten on August 8, 2008 at 9:41 AM

RVN, 1971-1972, under XXIV corps, DaNang, Chu Lia, Phu Bai, Dong Ha. I got around.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 9:46 AM

05K, later changed to 98K.

fossten on August 8, 2008 at 9:41 AM

05K – EW/SIGINT Non-Morse Interceptor ?

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 9:51 AM

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 9:19 AM

Whoa… Sir!
I have never posted anything like you wrote there!

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 10:10 AM

C’mon MB4, many of us “sat out” the Vietnam war! Nobody wanted to go to Vietnam and fight a terrible war run by a terrible administration to get killed for what exactly? We respect those that served but castigating those that didn’t is not honorable either!

sabbott on August 8, 2008 at 10:15 AM

Dear Editor Obama—
I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says, “If you see it in The Sun, it’s so.”
Please tell me the truth, is there a Santa Claus?
-Virginia O’Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are right.

They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age, because America is not a country to be proud of. They do not believe except what they see, and what they see is that America is a bad, evil place that we all should be ashamed of. In fact, there are millions who have only been able to be proud of their country after I became a nominee for president. (Pause to stare sagely into the distance) And if I lose, you won’t be able to be proud of their country ever again.

All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little, but with me, and through me, all minds will become grand. In this great universe of ours, other men are mere insects, ants, in intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by my intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge… which is also me, by the way.

No, Virginia, there is no Santa Claus. He would exist as certainly as love and generosity and devotion could exist except for the racism and cruelty that this country has forced upon the entire world. And you know that with my light, mankind could abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy, which could only be found in serving others as I see fit, instead of creating wealth as I have done… but only if I am elected because the Republicans and those who don’t believe in me will not
allow those things if they are elected… for they will not advocate coercing you into an Orwellian forced volunteerism
against your wishes, which is the light and the way. And the light and the way is Me.

Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Barack Obama to refuse to wear a flag pin and to show disrespect by not saluting the flag at times! It would be as dreary as if there were no Che Gueveras, no Father Pflegers, no Reverend Wrights, no Frank Marshall Davises of the Communist Party USA, no Pentagon bombers Bernradine
Dorn and William Ayers.

There would be no childlike faith except that I shall give it to you; no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. You would have no enjoyment, except in your own life instead of serving others as I would have you do. The eternal light with which my being fills the world would be extinguished if I am not given my inevitable place as president of these 57 United States of America and the world.

Believe in Santa Claus? You might as well believe in fairness and equality in America! You might get your father to hire men to watch in all the cities of America, but even if you thought you saw fairness, it would be a racist lie, created by The Racist Man to fool you into racist complacency.

Nobody sees fairness in America, and nobody ever will unless I am elected your supreme leader to start a Reich that will last a thousand years. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see, but only I and my supporters can see. Do you ever see McCain signs on a neighbor’s lawn? Of course not, and it’s not because my acolytes steal them; that’s proof that everyone needs me to be elected so that the planet will start to heal and the deadly rise of the oceans will stop before they kill you, your puppy, your pet bunnies, and all your family.

Nobody can conceive or imagine all the horrors and unjust actions and natural catastrophes there will be in the world if I am not elected to set Nature back in balance.

Republicans will tear apart the baby’s rattle just to watch the baby cry, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart.

But I have seen through that veil and the unbearable Lightness of my Being has wrent it asunder. And only the faith, poetry, love, romance, that will come about through Me can push aside that curtain and view the supernatural beauty and glory which will shine its Light upon the world when I am elected.

Is it all real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing real and abiding but through me, through the Light, the Truth, and the Way.

No, there is no Santa Claus, because nobody needs Santa Claus now that I am here! Obama be praised! my rein will live and live forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, I will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

Kerry on August 8, 2008 at 10:18 AM

[MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 4:53 AM]

Oh, great, another relativist equating wisecracks and, at worst, calling people names with spitting. I see you didn’t collect up all J_Gocht’s ‘spitting’. No, just his bald assertion he doesn’t use ad hominems. Are you arguing that “Chickenhawks” is a term of endearment when vets cast them as non-vets?

MB4, an ad hominem (wiki) “consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.”

This is just what J_Gocht was doing with Rush Limbaugh and only in the most narrowest reading can J_Gocht use of Chickenhawks be seen to be an aspersion cast only Limbaugh. He was certainly trying to subvert the claims of others, like mine in agreeing with Rush, by changing the subject to cysts and service, in other words attacking the man, thereby trying to change the subject in an offensive way.

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 10:20 AM

Haven’t you people learned not to feed the trolls…

Keith_Indy on August 8, 2008 at 10:21 AM

sabbott on August 8, 2008 at 10:15 AM

Very few that I knew “sat it out” and nobody is castigating anyone other than big blowhards like el Rushbo-bo-bo-ass-pimple.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 10:22 AM

Haven’t you people learned not to feed the trolls…

Keith_Indy on August 8, 2008 at 10:21 AM

Whiny and vacuous. Try to do better.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 10:24 AM

05K – EW/SIGINT Non-Morse Interceptor ?

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 9:51 AM

Yessir. Fun, huh?

fossten on August 8, 2008 at 10:26 AM

Second look at General Zod!

fossten on August 8, 2008 at 10:29 AM

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 10:20 AM

Largely vacuous and rather verbose for what is covered.

BTW, Is that term verboten? Nothing else seems to be. Why is that? Some kind of affirmative action or something.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 10:32 AM

worst, calling people names with spitting. I see you didn’t collect up all J_Gocht’s ’spitting’…” Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 10:20 AM

Dusty, please refer me to the thread, date and time under my handle, J_Gocht that I posted anything like you have referenced to me, in yours?

As for “Chickenhawk” you’re correct; that’s a term of endearment we use cavalierly to describe those who have not served, yet all the while maintaining with enthusiasm and hubris that others should do so willingly and patriotically in their stead!

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 10:35 AM

I keep asking but, no one seems to know the answer. When was the US so loved? Not in the 40’s had a big war. Not in the 50’s; ask any Hungarian or east Berliner, better yet recall how the Vice President was treated in south America. The 60’s; no another war and by the way, we were called the bad guys for trying to help the South Vietnamese – Won the war and had congress stick it into all who love freedom. How about the 70’s? Jimmy, Gas prices, Inflation, Joblessness, Iran and the Shah? Do you recall the joy and praise heaped upon President Regan for building up the defense of Europe? No because it did not happen. Europeans and the American Press wanted the Soviets to win. America was the bad guy again! The 80’s were not our moment for love and lets all get along. The 90’s were just as bad. Bush so well praised so loudly faulted for the worst economy in 50 years. Now of course the second Bush is the reason for the worst economy sense the Great Depression! Clinton, don’t make me sick, The World Trade Center bombing, the Marine Barracks, The Embassies, the Cole we were under a lot of fire from those who love us. And now, we are at fault for winning freedom for the Iraqi and Afghan peoples. We are hated for freeing women from the bonds of forbidden education.
No my friends the only thing we harkin back to is our own lack of education in the history of the United States and the good we have done.

Dennis227 on August 8, 2008 at 10:37 AM

C’mon MB4, many of us “sat out” the Vietnam war! Nobody wanted to go to Vietnam and fight a terrible war run by a terrible administration to get killed for what exactly? We respect those that served but castigating those that didn’t is not honorable either!

sabbott on August 8, 2008 at 10:15 AM

Let’s try this –

C’mon sabbott, many of us “sat out” the Iraq war! Nobody wanted to go to Iraq and fight a terrible war run by a terrible administration to get killed for what exactly? We respect those that served but castigating those that didn’t is not honorable either!

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 10:37 AM

J-Gocht, I skimmed through comments since last night. Still havn’t seen where you pointed to the post arguing Obama answer to the child was the right approach. Can we at least get past that, then we can get back to the ad hominems and changed subject.

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 10:38 AM

As for “Chickenhawk” you’re correct; that’s a term of endearment we use cavalierly to describe those who have not served, yet all the while maintaining with enthusiasm and hubris that others should do so willingly and patriotically in their stead!

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 10:35 AM

Always remember Sarge that it is much better for no account peons like you and me to risk our lives than for the el Elitebos to risk theirs. They must survive to cheerlead later wars.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 10:41 AM

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 10:37 AM

“Dittos MB4”…!

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 10:44 AM

Haven’t read all the comments yet, forgive if I repeat, but the first thing I noticed was his stuttering and stammering just trying to answer a simple question for a 7 yr old. No teleprompter; no eloquent speeches. Really! I suck at public speaking and I could have answered that question easily.

4shoes on August 8, 2008 at 10:45 AM

I think that is high time for me to post this.

WARNING, WARNING, WARNING, WILL ROBERTSON!!!

The easily upset should skip to the next comment.

The parallels between Senator James Inhofe’s [where he asked Gore to take a pledge to use no more energy than most Americans do] criticism of Gore and the “chicken hawk” argument made by opponents of the Iraq war are striking. Consider the hypothetical case of an Iraq war supporter who we’ll call “Jonah.” Jonah posts lots of things on the Internet in which he argues that the Iraq war is the central front in the war on terror, and that the war on terror is a fight for America’s survival.

When critics point out that our military has had to lower admission standards in order to meet recruiting quotas, and that Jonah himself is a healthy man of military age, Jonah replies that he’s contributing to the global war on terror in his own fashion, by posting pro-war arguments on the Internet, attaching a yellow ribbon magnet to his car, and so forth.

This response is just as lame as Gore’s, and in exactly the same way. If you claim we’re facing a huge crisis that requires great personal sacrifice on everyone’s part, but refuse to make any real sacrifice yourself, then your attempts to obscure the latter fact through empty symbolic gestures deserve to be mocked.

It’s obvious what Al and Jonah should each do, given their respective beliefs: Al should radically simplify his lifestyle, and Jonah should join the military.

Yet each of them could also do something that would, in its own way, be almost as impressive: simply confess his hypocrisy and weakness, and implore others to behave differently.

Imagine if Gore were to say, “Yes, I live in a deeply self-indulgent, utterly wasteful fashion. People like me are a very big part of the problem. I’d like to change, but I’m weak. For the sake of our planet, you need to be a stronger person than I’ve been.”

Imagine if Jonah were to say, “Yes, I’m a hypocritical coward, who values his own skin more than America’s survival. And our nation won’t survive if it’s made up of people like me. For everyone’s sake, you need to be more courageous than I’ve been.”

Now those would be inconvenient truths.
- Paul Campos
Tuesday, March 27, 2007 2:36 PM

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 10:46 AM

Something on Laura Ingraham’s radio show caught my ears earlier – and I think it should scare people a little more than “America is no longer what it once was.”

To this effect:

I’m running for President because . . . uh . . . uh . . . I have two girls just like you.

If he can’t answer a simple question without imitating Lauren Caitlin Upton (the South Carolina beauty pageant contestant with an IQ of 60) there’s a problem.

Oh boy, is there ever a problem.

Ryan Gandy on August 8, 2008 at 10:50 AM

To this effect:

I’m running for President because . . . uh . . . uh . . . I have two girls just like you.

Oh boy, is there ever a problem.

Ryan Gandy on August 8, 2008 at 10:50 AM

Real answer to why Obama is running for President -

Because I’m a megalomaniac.
- Barak Obama

Real answer to why McCain is running for President -

Because I’m a megalomaniac.
- John McCain

Oh boy, is there ever a problem.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 11:01 AM

I finally found the right youtube for Obama’s America isn’t what it used to be message. Yes he does see Red and yes he does want to paint the Republicans Black.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MO0iGw-0sY&feature=related

Dr Evil on August 8, 2008 at 11:04 AM

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 11:01 AM

That was lacking in any logic at all, but given your previous posts this isn’t surprising.

I’m talking about how this guy can’t sound out the answer to a simple question, not imagined “reasons” as to why either are running for President.

Do you have anything of validity to contribute to the conversation, or are you just going to continue trolling?

Ryan Gandy on August 8, 2008 at 11:16 AM

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 10:38 AM

Dusty, my original post on page [2]… J_Gocht on August 7, 2008 at 5:19 PM “dealt specifically with Ed’s headline…

“Obama: “America is no longer what it once was”
; I attempted to illustrate why I agreed with Senator Obama rather explicitly there with my embedded links.

You’re correct I have never specifically addressed the issue of whether Senator Obama’s answer to the child was the right approach. There are also many other points of discourse in this post where I have expressed no specific opinion.

I may be wrong; but I believe you must certainly appreciate my merciful silence? The off topic military jargon discussion aside.

Or not…?

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 11:30 AM

[MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 10:32 AM]

Largely vacuous and rather verbose for what is covered.

Irrelevancies; ad hominems; and assertions without argument. Again you are not addressing the subject. Your decision to call my short post such, though, is especially sweet coming from someone whose prime mode of argument throwing a copy of Bartlett in almost every post to support your ad hominems and efforts to change the subject. Are you pushing to have a new logical error named after you?

BTW, Is that term verboten? Nothing else seems to be. Why is that? Some kind of affirmative action or something.

Thanks for confirming that J_Gocht’s use of it is an ad hominem, thus he’s a liar when he says he doesn’t do such a thing.

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 11:30 AM

Dusty, please refer me to the thread, date and time under my handle, J_Gocht that I posted anything like you have referenced to me, in yours?

As for “Chickenhawk” you’re correct; that’s a term of endearment we use cavalierly to describe those who have not served, yet all the while maintaining with enthusiasm and hubris that others should do so willingly and patriotically in their stead!

[J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 10:35 AM]

There you go answering your own question. I appreciate your decision to cross the aisle to make and prove my arguments for me. I’d prefer you just stay on you side and say, “Yeah, I use ad hominems and my asserting I don’t was a little white lie.”

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 11:40 AM

[J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 11:30 AM]

Dude, this isn’t about your comment on page two. I made no comment about that. I made a comment kudo’ing Rush for his point on how to talk to a child and that Obama’s approach was wrong. You initiated this by mockingly asking me to call Rush with an ad hominem on a wholly different subject. You jokingly wanted me to be your surrogate for attacking the man and not the argument. You used that kidding to mockingly attack my support of Rush’s point.

Are you so stuck in your broken-record mimic’ing of useless, senseless lefty ad hominems because you harbor similar petty little peeves that you can’t recognize elementary debate structure?

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 11:53 AM

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 11:40 AM

Dusty, I appreciate your attempt[s] to teach me the finer points of debating in a blog.

As you may have discerned I’m more than a bit on the geezerly side and don’t express my thoughts clearly on occasion. You may have also noted that some points you have defined precisely; go right over my head!

Never fear Dusty, someday you’ll find your ownself in the same “revoltin’ situation”. Then you’ll understand?

Oh, and by the way; I still do know the difference between Sunni and Shiite. Plus the fact that al Qaeda is not entering Iraq from Iran!

How about them apples…or is it oranges…?

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 12:17 PM

“Illegal war”, “Abu Graib”, “Plame”, etc. etc…
This is as 1GooDDaDDy, progressoverpeace, and yours humble truly observed.

For some, they only persist in finding the worst apples they can find. [And for the listed so-called 'grieviances', only one is true and truly bad.]

For the rest sane, they weighed in the good vs. the bad. And they base their judgement on the overall balance sheet. Some may still think it was a bad idea, but they don’t pick out the one browned flower and dismiss the whole beautiful garden.

Sir Napsalot on August 8, 2008 at 12:32 PM

I may be wrong; but I believe you must certainly appreciate my merciful silence? The off topic military jargon discussion aside.

Or not…?

[J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 11:30 AM]

Sorry I missed this.

No, I don’t appreciate it. I am indifferent to you being silent. What I do appreciate is when you engage in civil debate and stay on subject.

Every last person frequenting HA has something, large or small, in their past actions or comments which could be put to use in changing the subject and avoiding debate. The point of debate is to assess assertions and their supporting arguments to determine their validity, not win OR lose the debate by redirecting discussion to anything else. That is why, for instance, an ad hominem is a logical error. If it’s all you got then you are admitting defeat in the argument.

Retracting them is the better part of valor. I do, when necessary or pointed out. so, I’m glad to see you can do the same because it says you are willing to go back to the point where the debate went off track and resume the debate. It makes you a worthy opponent regardless of how often you may attempt them.

Two, small additional things. One, please don’t regard this as me puffing my feathers about your concession. I consider that we both won in that we can have civil discussions together in the future. I hope you speak up more.

The other thing I just forgot. Darn, it must have been really, really important.

Cheers.

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 12:37 PM

“…“Yeah, I use ad hominems and my asserting I don’t was a little white lie.”
Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 11:40 AM

I believe you’ve nailed me Dusty. I have on occasion made scurrilous attacks on certain individuals and groups, with whom I vehemently disagree.

With respect to the ad hominem attack; I attempt to reserve it exclusively for persons or individuals outside of the HOT AIRE blog, never with respect to fellow posters.

There may, however; be examples where, after a couple “gin and tonics” I have even violated that personal rule?

Mon apologies to all so violated… honestly!

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 12:44 PM

Whoa… Sir!
I have never posted anything like you wrote there!

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 10:10 AM

I may have got you mixed up with J_Rambo.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 12:51 PM

That was lacking in any logic at all, but given your previous posts this isn’t surprising.

Ryan Gandy on August 8, 2008 at 11:16 AM

You see but you do not observe.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 12:53 PM

Rush = phony conservative, drug addicted, Huckabee slanderer

SaintOlaf on August 8, 2008 at 12:53 PM

Do you have anything of validity to contribute to the conversation, or are you just going to continue trolling?

Ryan Gandy on August 8, 2008 at 11:16 AM

Accusing someone of “trolling” is the last refuge of the empty and the whiny. Are you a self parody?

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 12:56 PM

Hey Obama told that little girl he got hit in the head with a rock?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/lesion/AN00973

Dr Evil on August 8, 2008 at 1:00 PM

[MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 10:32 AM]

Largely vacuous and rather verbose for what is covered.

Irrelevancies; ad hominems; and assertions without argument. Again you are not addressing the subject. Your decision to call my short post such, though, is especially sweet coming from someone whose prime mode of argument throwing a copy of Bartlett in almost every post to support your ad hominems and efforts to change the subject. Are you pushing to have a new logical error named after you?

Have you somehow blotted out most of this thread and thereby not seen all the “ad hominems; and assertions without argument” directed mainly at J_Gocht, including by you? It seems that you have. Amazing.
BTW, I don’t even know what a “copy of Bartlett” is.

BTW, Is that term verboten? Nothing else seems to be. Why is that? Some kind of affirmative action or something.

Thanks for confirming that J_Gocht’s use of it is an ad hominem, thus he’s a liar when he says he doesn’t do such a thing.

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 11:30 AM

You are getting more confused as I did none of this “confirming” that you speak of.

And there you go after all you high talk with the ad hominem of calling him a liar.
You have become a self parody.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 1:07 PM

Rush = phony conservative, drug addicted, Huckabee slanderer

SaintOlaf on August 8, 2008 at 12:53 PM

For once we agree.

Rush is an elitist Country Club Republican who has bamboozled the little folks into buying into his act. He’s another one selling himself, his brand for ratings and a hefty contract.

AprilOrit on August 8, 2008 at 1:12 PM

I don’t do impersonations of morons, J.

Dusty on August 7, 2008 at 8:40 PM

I may be wrong; but I believe you must certainly appreciate my merciful silence? The off topic military jargon discussion aside.

Or not…?

[J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 11:30 AM]

Sorry I missed this.

No, I don’t appreciate it. I am indifferent to you being silent. What I do appreciate is when you engage in civil debate and stay on subject.

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 12:37 PM

You are a self parody and you can’t even see it at all. Really amazing.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 1:14 PM

[J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 12:17 PM]

You are not that much older than me. If you are a geezer, I’m on the cusp, and I can tell because the set of things I don’t want to learn is getting larger by the year.

I don’t mean to talk over your head. Smack those things down when you see them.

I’ve been in revoltin’ situations, if you will, most of my life, J, though no doubt most don’t measure up to some of yours. Still I think it better to prefer optimism to pessimism because of where each takes one.

I like apples and oranges even in the same fruit salad.

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 1:19 PM

Rush is an elitist Country Club Republican who has bamboozled the little folks into buying into his act. He’s another one selling himself, his brand for ratings and a hefty contract.

AprilOrit on August 8, 2008 at 1:12 PM

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
- Abraham Lincoln

I don’t know why anyone would listen to him much any more anyway, he has gotten so long winded and so boring the last couple of years.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 1:22 PM

I don’t mean to talk over your head. Smack those things down when you see them.

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 1:19 PM

There is always the possibility that he was just pulling your leg with that you know. I certainly wouldn’t rule it out. He’s a sly one.

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 1:25 PM

[MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 1:14 PM]

I could be wrong, but I think that J_Gocht and I have reconciled the question of ad hominems for which tit-for-tat exchanges of them are not helpful either, MB4. Frivolous chants from the peanut gallery, even without long winded citations of Mark Twain, fall on deaf ears here.

Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 1:30 PM

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 9:11 AM

uh, are you saying that Rush made the decision to not be drafted? that he called the draft board and said he has a pimple on his ass and couldnt serve and they said “oh, okay, no problem”?

the inductee didnt get much of a say when it came to 4F, if the docs flunked you then they flunked you, very little appeal. and when i was doing my enlistment physical there was a guy who was failed, a high school football player, cause of a screw in his knee. they said he could have it removed and try again but he still might fail. so even fixing the problem could cause possibly fail him.

chasdal on August 8, 2008 at 1:41 PM

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 1:22 PM

You got that right. Lately, he tends to chew the same cabbage over and over again. It’s almost sauerkraut.

I believe he’s totally flummoxed by the desperate straits in which the Republican Party finds itself.

His dittoheads keep imploring him for answers he can’t supply. His frustration is even more evident recently as he flounders about trying to keep up with the dolphins on his side of the aisle.

Yah gotta luv it!

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 1:52 PM

chasdal on August 8, 2008 at 1:41 PM

Just a rather lame attempt on my part to “make a funny”… chasdal.

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 2:00 PM

“…I don’t mean to talk over your head. Smack those things down when you see them.
Dusty on August 8, 2008 at 1:19 PM

Dusty, my problem will still remain the same, if I can’t identify the issue.

I’ll give ‘er my best shot, anywho!

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 2:17 PM

sbark on August 8, 2008 at 8:30 AM

Obama is a “learner”, not a thinker….he repeats things he has learned only

As Spock would say, fascinating. One trait of a narcissist is his values and inner life are all derivative, taken from others. He doesn’t fashion something of his own, on his own, within himself, and then present it as his idea to the world. Rather, he derives it from others. He borrows, or you could say, steals. He’s a mimic. So in that way your comment makes a lot of sense to me.

To expand a bit, the inner life of a narcissist, which Obama may well be, where there usually are values, convictions, beliefs, loyalties, dreams, is more or less empty, and it’s chronically empty, he’s not able to fill it up or even halfway fill it up. Symptoms are being thin-skinned, vague, speaking while saying nothing, it being all about him, a good listener, extremely charming, being all things to all people,m relaxed, resilient. One way to create a narcissist is to have an absent father and doting mother (see also WJ Clinton).

That Obama’s a learner and not a thinker … I love that. That really comports with how I understand Obama.

Obama values? I don’t know. At least WJC had a belief in civil rights and the value of education. Obama seems all narcissist. 100% charm, no enduring personal values. He may have them, but I don’t know what they are.

Paul-Cincy on August 8, 2008 at 2:32 PM

So, anyway, one great appeal of Obama is people can fill him up with their dreams, and he’s very willing to be that vessel, he’s receptive, because that’s his nature. As you say, he’s a learner, not a thinker. His values won’t get in the way of his follower’s dreams. Thinking screws up a good dream.

Paul-Cincy on August 8, 2008 at 2:35 PM

Paul-Cincy on August 8, 2008 at 2:32 PM

Psychology 101, impressive Paul?

With your little dissertation are you certain you weren’t doin’ a little projection number on your own self?

As for…

”That Obama’s a learner and not a thinker … I love that. That really comports with how I understand Obama.”

That would appear to me to be a bit of a “chicken or egg” conundrum.

I learn therefore I think”.
“If it is not a misspelled Descartes’ “Cognito ergo sum” it may be a play of words meaning rather: I learn, or I study, therefore I am. (Lating) cognosco – to learn, to recognise,to study, to read.

“I think therefore I learn”.
“Descartes coined the phrase “Cognito, ergo sum.” (“I think, therefore I am”) which was a conclusion that there was only one thing of which he could be certain; that he existed!…”

Bit of a “pickle” eh Paul?

J_Gocht on August 8, 2008 at 3:04 PM

I used to think self loathers were the problem

With Obama, Michelle and their spiritual advisor Wright, self loathing is not the problem

Scumland America.

I would love to debate Obama anytime with cameras running.

I may be ugly but I can describe America’s beauty, past, present and future.

It may not be good enough for Obama, but it was good enough to die for

I would consider it an honor to debate what Obama told that little girl. I owe it to the spirits of Lexington and Concord, of Antietam and Gettysburg, of Normandy and Iwo Jima, of Iraq and Afghanistan, and of NYC and the fallen of the WTC.

What I saw at the WTC after 911 tells me America is as great as ever. It is the spirit that makes us great.

America is so great I can never be worthy so I thank God I am blessed to be an American despite my meager contributions

Washington, Adams, LIncoln, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Reagan, Obama this is my currency

Grant, Lee, Eisenhower, Patton my many generals

The graveyards of America hold the bones of my spiritual fathers in this great nation whose best days are yet to come

entagor on August 8, 2008 at 5:03 PM

entagor on August 8, 2008 at 5:03 PM

The graveyards of America hold the bones of my spiritual fathers in this great nation whose best days are yet to come.

Thanks entagor,
GREAT POST, YOUR WHOLE COMMENT
in this otherwise useless bit of drivel that was once a blog called HotAir.

shooter on August 8, 2008 at 10:18 PM

The sum total of Barack Obama – 40+ years of the liberal indoctrination that created him and those who would support a man with 143 days of experience voting “present” in the Senate.

Connie on August 8, 2008 at 11:31 PM

Connie on August 8, 2008 at 11:31 PM

The sum total of Barack Obama – 40+ years of the liberal indoctrination that created him and those who would support a man with 143 days of experience voting “present” in the Senate.

And did I mention he’s black?

Paul-Cincy on August 9, 2008 at 12:05 PM

MB4 on August 8, 2008 at 10:46 AM

I never buggered anyone but that doesn’t mean I can’t criticize buggers.

Akzed on August 9, 2008 at 12:56 PM

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