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More on the Catholic conundrum

posted at 1:15 pm on August 7, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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In thinking further on my earlier post, I want to clarify why many practicing Catholics cannot accept Douglas Kmiec’s strange rationalization for voting in support of a pro-abortion candidate. I’ll try to move this away from a specific issue with the current presidential candidates, which is why I’m writing this as a separate post.

Kmiec offers a formulation used often by Catholics when voting for such candidates:

Douglas W. Kmiec, a conservative Catholic legal scholar at Pepperdine School of Law, said that although the formal teachings of the American Catholic bishops put primacy on the sanctity of life, including fetuses and embryos, doctrine allows for voting on other grounds, including the Iraq war, which the Vatican has opposed from the start.

Mr. Kmiec, a Republican who served in the Justice Department under President Ronald Reagan, said he was supporting Mr. Obama because his platform met the standard of justice and concern for the poor the church has always defended. This year, Mr. Kmiec was denied communion by a priest at a gathering of Catholic business people because of his support for Mr. Obama. Mr. Kmiec said, “The proper question for Catholics to ask is not ‘Can I vote for him?’ but ‘Why shouldn’t I vote for the candidate who feels more passionately and speaks more credibly about economic fairness for the average family, who will be a true steward of the environment, and who will treat the immigrant family with respect?’ ”

Issues of cconomic fairness do appear in the Catholic catechism, although only in general terms. The teachings do not prescribe a certainty of policy as Catholic or un-Catholic. Paragraphs 1938, 1941, and 1947 emphasize the need for action by Catholics to reduce sinful inequalities between the rich and the poor, but generally casts this in rather stark terms, with little resemblance to the quality of life of those deemed poor in the US:

  • 43% of the poor own their homes, and the average home is a three-bedroom house with a garage and 1.5 bathrooms
  • Over two-thirds of households have two rooms per occupant, which belies the notion of overcrowding
  • 80% of the poor have air conditioning
  • Almost 75% own one car; 31% own two or more
  • The average living space for the American poor is larger than the average space for all people in Paris, Vienna, and London, among other cities in Europe

Furthermore, the catechism talks mostly about personal work to resolve sinful inequalities, not the establishment of a government mandate that operates under a redistributionist policy.  It doesn’t forbid it, either, and that’s really the point.  Both parties want to help Americans live well, but have different philosophies on how to get there.  Voters in general should support the candidate who best represents their own approach to these issues, but that has nothing to do with Catholicism.

Neither does the Iraq war.  While the Vatican disagreed with it, war itself does not violate Catholic doctrine (para 2309).  The catechism does explicitly call “indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas” a violation of doctrine, but the US has not engaged in that kind of warfare in decades, and not ever without substantial provocation (para 2314).  Nor is it even applicable in this context, since the war in Iraq is over, and both candidates support an expansion of the war in Afghanistan.  Once again, voters have to rely on something other than Catholic teachings to cast their vote.

However, as I pointed out earlier, the doctrine on abortion leaves no room for such subjective application of other values.  Paragraph 2271 plainly casts “every procured abortion” as a “moral evil”, and reinforces that by stating plainly that this teaching is irrevocable.  Paragraph 2272 calls “formal cooperation” in abortion a “grave offense”, meaning a mortal sin.  Why?  Here, science and faith intersect.  Scientifically, an embryo has life at the moment when the cells divide, if not a few minutes earlier at conception.  Further, the embryo is innately human, with unique DNA specific to humans — and is therefore human life, regardless of its level of convenience to the mother.  Catholicism teaches that human life, especially innocent human life, is sacred and “must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.”

Anyone who formally cooperates in abortion, therefore, sins, and cannot honestly receive the Eucharist until they repent.  That conclusion is inescapable from the catechism in paragraphs 2271, 2272, and 2274, and explicit in 2322:

From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

Regardless of how Catholics feel about economic “fairness” or the Iraq war, that trumps all else for observant Catholics.  Formal cooperation with abortion means excommunication, which indicates just how foundational this issue is for the Church and its members.

Many Catholics maneuver around this by simply ignoring it, and they’re free to do so.  Membership in the Church is voluntary, after all, and people can leave the Catholic Church if they disagree with its catechism (and strictly speaking, they should do so under those circumstances).   However, it’s either a gross misrepresentation or self-delusion to argue that abortion is simply one issue among many for observant Catholics and that economic policy or foreign affairs can outweigh it.

Update: The Anchoress wrote a column on this topic last month that is well worth the read.


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..he was supporting Mr. Obama because his platform met the standard of justice and concern for the poor the church has always defended. This year, Mr. Kmiec was denied communion by a priest at a gathering of Catholic business people because of his support for Mr. Obama.

Awesome… almost makes me want to convert to Catholicism.

SaintOlaf on August 7, 2008 at 1:21 PM

It is helpful to remember that communion is denied to protect the sinner not to punish him.

pedestrian on August 7, 2008 at 1:27 PM

Kmiec thought he was the vanguard of an army of Republican Obama supporters. Now he’s standing there all alone, looking like a fool.

Cicero43 on August 7, 2008 at 1:27 PM

I say, good for the priest who denied him. Makes me glad that I did convert to Catholicism.

Torch on August 7, 2008 at 1:28 PM

I’m not Catholic, and am not too familiar with the nuances of Catholic doctrine. However, I saw this the other day, and it seems to relate to the issue raised in this post. Given that the issue of birth control (and insurance coverage thereof) has already broken through to the media at least once this summer, do you think that this could become a big issue? What is a reasonable position on this issue, given religious opposition to birth control and the great deal of popularity and acceptance of the pill among the population?

Related: William Saletan

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 1:28 PM

Economic fairness? I make six figures now….after busting my hump for thirty years to get there. I put in the work, I get the reward. You want the reward? Get off your ass and earn it. THAT’S economic fairness.

Patrick S on August 7, 2008 at 1:28 PM

So the liberals in the Catholic church want to vote for the candidate that most TALKS about the poor, rather than the one that might actually HELP the poor? Makes sense.

doodleduh on August 7, 2008 at 1:30 PM

Douglas Kmiec’s rationalization would only make sense if McCain was planning to PREVENT Kmiec from helping the poor, and that only Obama would allow him to keep helping poor people. But that’s obviously not the case. Kmiec has no barrier to helping the poor by himself, or organizing his friends and neighbors to do the same. The US Government has much less experience solving the problems of the poor than his own church does. Kmiec has simply lost his mind, and is grasping for a straw to explain it away.

RBMN on August 7, 2008 at 1:31 PM

I don’t understand how anyone who calls themselves christian can vote for a pro-abortion pro gay marriage candidate. talking about the government ‘caring’ for the poor is not what the bible envisions as a function of government. The Lord told the church to care for the poor, not the government. When the government does it, it sets the government up as god. thats why I believe Europe is so secular, they have the government to take care of their every need, and don’t have to turn to God for anything.

right4life on August 7, 2008 at 1:31 PM

The catechism does explicitly call “indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas” a violation of doctrine

And why would a secular society care what Catholic doctrine says? Unless an individual has the capability to ‘destroy whole cities or vast areas’, methinks the Vatican is severely overstepping its boundaries in the desire to see individual human beings’ souls saved by Christ’s resurrection for our sins.

In other words, it’s fairly presumptuous of them to have a religious edict ascribed to an entire society. ‘Sin’ is an individual thing, not a societal thing. In other words, would a society that engaged in such wartime tactics be required to go to confessional? If they didn’t would that entire society be ‘excommunicated’? And by what authority would people within the community be condemned to hell? This catechism violated by the people in charge?

Anyway, Catholicism is pretty funny in what it thinks it is in charge of. Just spread the Gospel. . . like most Protestants do. That ‘catechism’ is highly presumptuous.

ThackerAgency on August 7, 2008 at 1:32 PM

Excellent Post Ed!!

PappaMac on August 7, 2008 at 1:32 PM

Patrick S on August 7, 2008 at 1:28 PM

I agree – although it did not take me 30 years, I still worked hard for everything I have.

HawaiiLwyr on August 7, 2008 at 1:34 PM

‘Sin’ is an individual thing, not a societal thing. In other words, would a society that engaged in such wartime tactics be required to go to confessional? If they didn’t would that entire society be ‘excommunicated’? And by what authority would people within the community be condemned to hell? This catechism violated by the people in charge?

There’s plenty of collective punishment in the Bible, although it’s mostly in the OT.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 1:34 PM

Can someone tell me why Kmiec is considered a conservative???

What conservative position, other than say anti-abortion (which doesn’t seem to animate him very much), does he take?

And if he’s not conservative, why does every utterance he make get play?

Clark1 on August 7, 2008 at 1:36 PM

‘Why shouldn’t I vote for the candidate who feels more passionately and speaks more credibly about economic fairness for the average family, who will be a true steward of the environment, and who will treat the immigrant family with respect?’

What I take from this is that Kmiec 1) must have missed the economics part of the Law and Economics movement 2)he loves the way Obama speaks and believes his perceived passion and eloquence counts as a reason to support him 3)believes in global warming and is fine with a carbon tax, cap and trade, and global governance to combat it 4) Is upset about anti illegal alien sentiment because so many illegals are atleast nominally catholic.

I found this post fascinating Ed but I’d love to hear your thoughts in particular on his comment about “immigrants”.

D0WNT0WN on August 7, 2008 at 1:37 PM

Patrick S on August 7, 2008 at 1:28 PM

Agreed.

I’m far from earning six figures, but, the year my father finally broke the six figure mark, he averaged 80 hour work weeks.

He didn’t win life’s lottery. He got up every morning at 5am and didn’t come home at night until after 9pm.

Now, there are other ways of getting up to that range that don’t involve working harder but working smarter (actually, usually a combination of the two). But, anyone that thinks the average person earning six figures is living the life of luxury (before retirement) is kidding themselves.

JadeNYU on August 7, 2008 at 1:37 PM

Nice insight Ed. Thanks.

nailinmyeye on August 7, 2008 at 1:37 PM

I’m glad I don’t have to depend on the aritrary Machiavellian rulings of a disgraced mystical oligarchy before I make my political decisions.

Dr. Manhattan on August 7, 2008 at 1:37 PM

The Catholic Church reserves a special moral category for an intrinsically evil act, like murder, which can never be justified by intentions or circumstances.

Other moral acts require the agent to consider whether the act is being done for a good intention, or whether particular circumstances make it prudent or imprudent. For instance, should you force a family member into substance abuse treatment for their own good? There are many contextual considerations, and no right answer, even though it’s clearly a moral question.

In the realm of intrinsically evil acts, there is no room for conscience, context, or intention. Leftists typically abuse the notion of conscience to render all moral principles open to interpretation, but the Church teaches no such thing.

Political activities, decisions, policies, are all open to the interpretation of conscience, and reasonable people may disagree about them. Not so with abortion. The Church has taught this doctrine for many centuries.

jeff_from_mpls on August 7, 2008 at 1:38 PM

Being a Roman Catholic is a personal choice. There are plenty of other religions out there, if being Roman Catholic isn’t your cup of tea.

But, to espouse oneself, proclaim oneself as being a Roman Catholic, wear it on your sleeve to garner votes, and then go over the a la carte menu of what you wish to believe and what you would rather avoid…ignoring dogma and Canon Law along the way, that is not being Roman Catholic.

What the Vatican promulgates is for Roman Catholic consumption. If the rest of the world or none of the world wish to go along…well, they’re not Roman Catholic, so no big deal. Just because I like the Dali Lhama and can appreciate the things he teaches, doesn’t make me a Lhamist Buddhist. But, if I were a Lhamist Buddhist, I would be compelled to follow his pronouncements to the letter.

Why do people view the Roman Catholic Church in such a negative light? If you don’t wish to follow the teachings of the Church, then find another. But don’t do so and then claim you are a Roman Catholic. One is. Or one isn’t.

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 1:44 PM

Formal cooperation with abortion means excommunication, which indicates just how foundational this issue is for the Church and its members.

What does “cooperation” mean, anyway? Does it count if one votes for a politician or other public figure who has expressed pro-choice views but has little or no power to act upon them? What if abortion had nothing to do with the campaign? The definition of “cooperation” seems to get very vague.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 1:47 PM

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 1:44 PM

Those are some very rigid standards you have there.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 1:48 PM

Also not being a Catholic, I’d love to get some takes on discussions I’ve had in the past with (what seemed to me) liberal Catholics regarding abortion, birth control, and premarital sex if I may.

Back in my JAG days I’d argue with lawyers and others in the office about how it was odd that so many Catholics in the office seemed to endorse the right of abortion and were so outspoken about the church needing to change their rules about birth control and sex. They seemed to feel that the church was forcing abortion as the only alternative for young girls because they ‘Outlawed’ birth control. I would ask them why they wouldnt just choose to go against the churches wishes on birth control instead of abortion (and that obviously they were already going against what I believe is their teachings on premarital sex) as I figured abortion had to be a more aggregious violation in the eyes of the church.

They simply made flippant comments about being a guy wanting to control women and such and I never really got a straight answer as to why abortion was the better answer. But they did always fall back on the position that birth control was forbidden. So my questions are:

Is birth control worse than abortion in the eyes of the church? It’s equal?

Is premarital sex discouraged, outright forbidden or not addressed at all?

It always made me wonder why people would stay with their religion if they were so passionately against the teaching of that religion. And why so many people seem to pick and choose what they want to believe is true and right and disagree with and discard those that they don’t. To me either it’s true or it isn’t, and if not, why bother with it? It seems like some people just go to church to make themselves feel better at the end of the day (just in case, I suppose) instead of actually believing what is being told and taught. That seems like an enormous waste of time and energy.

Anyway, thanks for any opinions.

Grunt2Jag on August 7, 2008 at 1:50 PM

The headline for this article made no sense at all… I wouldn’t presume to tell you how to run your blog (hehe), but I like descriptive headlines that give me a clue about what the story is before I click on it, so that I can decide if I want to click on it at all. “More on the Catholic Conundrum, Not all issues are equal” tells me nothing, it doesn’t tell me what the issues are, what the conundrum is, nor does the “more” obviously refer to any previous post… scrolling down the page, there is no prior reference at all to a “catholic conundrum”.

Just sayin’. Forgive me, I’m grumpy today. :-)

DaveS on August 7, 2008 at 1:51 PM

My priest delivered a fiery homily last Sunday, fist banging and all, that we CANNOT vote for any candidates who does not respect the sanctity of life.

I’ve never seen fire in his blood like it was last Sunday, and he’s one passionate priest(in the good way).

Vincenzo on August 7, 2008 at 1:55 PM

Been a “fan” of Joseph Ratzinger since his days as Bishop of Munich. During a long period when the Church was trying to be “popular” Bishop Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, wrote extensively on this paradox in Church teachings in a modern world.

Rigid standards are not just confined to Roman Catholicism. Would we have our medical profession subject to loose and flowing with the tide standards? Again, being a Roman Catholic is a personal choice. If it fits a person and their outlook on the world and their relationship with God, all well and good. If it doesn’t fit, there are other religions to choose from.

But, to claim you are a faithful and observant Roman Catholic…except for this, or that, and maybe that, too, and that doctrine over there isn’t so cool…perhaps one should examine their own place in the Communion of Roman Catholics and honestly look to either “getting with the program” or admit that being Roman Catholic is inconsistent with their personal set of beliefs and find another outlet.

Rigid? Yes. Being Roman Catholic is never, and never has been, easy.

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 1:55 PM

I’m glad I don’t have to depend on the aritrary Machiavellian rulings of a disgraced mystical oligarchy before I make my political decisions.

Dr. Manhattan on August 7, 2008 at 1:37 PM

No one is being forced to do so. I can’t say I’m a huge fan of Catholicism, but to act as though these people are forced into anything is as absurd as saying Christians are forced into following Jesus.

That said, I think it’s a little harsh to ex-communicate people for supporting a particular candidate no matter what that candidate believes.

Esthier on August 7, 2008 at 1:56 PM

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 1:44 PM

Well said.

TheBigOldDog on August 7, 2008 at 1:59 PM

Esthier on August 7, 2008 at 1:56 PM

Excommunication is for the officeholders that facilitate abortion, not for the people who voted for them. I just wanted to clarify this point. “Formal cooperation” means actively facilitating abortions, not indirectly doing so by way of voting for a pro-abortion candidate. However, the point here is that Catholics have to consider whether they truly believe in the doctrine of the Church when casting those votes.

Ed Morrissey on August 7, 2008 at 2:02 PM

But, to claim you are a faithful and observant Roman Catholic…except for this, or that, and maybe that, too, and that doctrine over there isn’t so cool…perhaps one should examine their own place in the Communion of Roman Catholics and honestly look to either “getting with the program” or admit that being Roman Catholic is inconsistent with their personal set of beliefs and find another outlet.

Rigid? Yes. Being Roman Catholic is never, and never has been, easy.

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 1:55 PM

That’s a great way to decrease the number of Catholics. I’m not saying that it should be easy to be Catholic, but it is the nature of religion to have disagreement among adherents, if not on theology then at least on doctrinal priority.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 2:02 PM

This issue goes back to the Democratic party being the party of immigrants and the Republican party being the party of the nativists. The power structure of the Dems is much better funded and organized than that of the Republicans, and they have kept this image alive and well, even though the reality of this formula is way out of sync.

I went door to door as a Republican candidate in a very Catholic city. The nuns had my sign on the lawn of the convent, but their parishioners either slammed their doors in my face when they found out I was a Republican, or lectured me on how “you” Republicans only care about taxes and big business. “They” were more concerned about feeding the poor and education. There is no convincing people different, even when you have the best intentions.

One very educated attorney that I had respected told me that even though they were Catholic and opposed abortion, that President Clinton brought peace to the Middle East and Ireland, and the Republicans fight wars to support big corporate profits.

Republicans need to invest in deprogramming these zombies.

Hening on August 7, 2008 at 2:03 PM

I would ask them why they wouldnt just choose to go against the churches wishes on birth control instead of abortion (and that obviously they were already going against what I believe is their teachings on premarital sex) as I figured abortion had to be a more aggregious violation in the eyes of the church.

Good question. I’m curious about the answer there as well.

I mean if you’re going to violate the church’s ruling, I would think birth control is better since it prevents the egg from even being fertilized, thus taking away the sanctity of life issue (I would think anyway).

But maybe they view birth control as worse since it’s more of a lifestyle decision, something you’d have to do every day to break a church rules, rather than an abortion which is generally a one time thing.

Then again, if they’re already having premarital sex, they’re already breaking a church rule on a regular basis.

As a Christian, it always bothered me that Christian teens would try to abide by the letter of the “law” rather than its spirit, meaning they knew it was wrong to have sex outside of marriage, so instead of taking birth control or buying condoms, they’d ignore it, until one day, magically, they have sex and get pregnant, as though ignoring the problem some how makes the offense less.

Sorry for rambling.

Esthier on August 7, 2008 at 2:05 PM

Ed Morrissey on August 7, 2008 at 2:02 PM

Thanks for that clarification. That does make more sense.

Esthier on August 7, 2008 at 2:06 PM

It never ceases to amaze me, when non-Catholics describe the Catholic Church. Y’all have so many misconceptions and untruths about us Catholics.

I believe there are so many Catholic liberals, not because of the Church’s stance on war and poverty (and such), but because of the backrounds of many Catholics.

Many are from 20th century immigrants. Working-class…the Irish and Italians for example. South American immigrants also tend to be Catholic. Especially with the Europeans, these were more Democrat families. And they pass that on.

JetBoy on August 7, 2008 at 2:10 PM

As a priest once told my young-adults group, if one is engaging in premarital sex, using birth control at that point hardly qualifies as the greater sin. I believe he called that thinking … “really stupid”, which got a big laugh.

Artificial contraception is called “intrinsically evil” in paragraph 2370, as it frustrates the intent of God in the act of sexual intercourse, ie, procreation as well as pleasure, within the context of marriage.

Ed Morrissey on August 7, 2008 at 2:12 PM

Wow, so Catholics aren’t simply people misguided on one particular issue. They are definitionally deranged lunatics and single-issue voters, whose views on that issue demonstrably contradict science.

freevillage on August 7, 2008 at 2:13 PM

The idea of Catholics voting for the pro-abortion candidate is crazy. The reason I’m not Catholic is that I’m pro-choice – at least part of the way. (Then there is the whole wine and bread thing, which I heard taste nothing like blood and meat)

OmegaPaladin on August 7, 2008 at 2:14 PM

Wow, so Catholics aren’t simply people misguided on one particular issue. They are definitionally deranged lunatics and single-issue voters, whose views on that issue demonstrably contradict science.

freevillage on August 7, 2008 at 2:13 PM

Wow, I hope that’s sarcasm…

JetBoy on August 7, 2008 at 2:17 PM

“Wow, so Catholics aren’t simply people misguided on one particular issue. They are definitionally deranged lunatics and single-issue voters, whose views on that issue demonstrably contradict science.”

Thanks to Obama’s Catholic outreach director for posting here, I hope all Catholics realize how the Democrats feel about their faith.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 2:24 PM

[Catholics are] deranged lunatics and single-issue voters, whose views on that issue demonstrably contradict science.

freevillage on August 7, 2008 at 2:13 PM

I don’t expect to reach you, but I’m obligated to remind others that science is not in the business of right and wrong. It’s job is to figure out the mathematical laws of the physical universe. Period.

In fact, scientists have a dismal track record when they step out of their extremely limited bounds of expertise and try to pontificate on moral matters.

jeff_from_mpls on August 7, 2008 at 2:27 PM

Artificial contraception is called “intrinsically evil” in paragraph 2370, as it frustrates the intent of God in the act of sexual intercourse, ie, procreation as well as pleasure, within the context of marriage.

So abortion is defined as a “moral evil” and a “grave offense” while contraception is defined as “intrinsically evil”. It sounds to me like contraception is worse, am I wrong?

Also, is it then the churches postion that it’s God’s intent for people to abstain from sex unless they are ready and determined to bear children (referring to your “procreation as well as pleasure” comment) even if they are married? Or are they expected to “roll the dice” and just accept any outcome as “God’s will”?

Not trying to seem like I’m picking at things, honestly trying to understand the churches teachings. It also seems to validate some of the round-in-circle arguments that I had with those people in my office.

Grunt2Jag on August 7, 2008 at 2:29 PM

There’s plenty of collective punishment in the Bible, although it’s mostly in the OT.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 1:34 PM

As an evangelical I must disagree with you. The New Testament affirms everything from the old. What’s the biggest collective punishment from the New Testanment?

The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, – 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11

shick on August 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM

Many Catholics maneuver around this by simply ignoring it, and they’re free to do so. Membership in the Church is voluntary, after all, and people can leave the Catholic Church if they disagree with its catechism (and strictly speaking, they should do so under those circumstances). However, it’s either a gross misrepresentation or self-delusion to argue that abortion is simply one issue among many for observant Catholics and that economic policy or foreign affairs can outweigh it.

This paragraph summed it up perfectly. One additional thing to point out is that “Catholics” who try to be pro-choice by circular logic are not going to be saved in the end. It is utterly impossible to be a faithful Catholic and pro-choice at the same time.

highhopes on August 7, 2008 at 2:37 PM

Also, is it then the churches postion that it’s God’s intent for people to abstain from sex unless they are ready and determined to bear children (referring to your “procreation as well as pleasure” comment) even if they are married? Or are they expected to “roll the dice” and just accept any outcome as “God’s will”?

Grunt2Jag on August 7, 2008 at 2:29 PM

The most important request in the Lord’s Prayer is “thy will be done.”

Catholics take this very literally.

Also, maybe it has to do with age. The older you get, if you acquire any wisdom at all, you figure out that (1) your best laid plans tend to crash and burn; and (2) a guiding hand can be seen, in retrospect, directing your life.

Thy will be done is a mighty good thing to pray for.

jeff_from_mpls on August 7, 2008 at 2:37 PM

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 2:02 PM –

“That’s a great way to decrease the number of Catholics.”

Is it? With the exception of Europe in general, there has been widespread growth of the Roman Catholic Church around the world. Roman Catholicism is now the preponderant Christian Church in UK, today, first time since the Reformation, and Henry VII, too. But, too much of Europe is still heading down the non-religious road, with the exception of Islam.

The Church actually lost membership on a wide scale during the period of Liberation Catholicism of the 70’s-80’s. A time when doctrine was in flux, and a lot of the clergy were more concerned with political events rather than religious requirements.

The Roman Catholic Church has a rich history of disagreement among adherants. Vatican II, back under Pope John XXIII was in response to such disagreements. The role of Bishop Ratzinger, as head of the Society for the Propagation of the Faith, was at the tip of the spear for many many years, fighting (or rather using his writings and discourse) for clarification of Church doctrine and, once clarified, for the Faithful to get on board.

[Bad analogy, perhaps, but look at what has happened over the past few decades vis-a-vis the GOP? Get away from the basics, get way off base from the fundamentals, and still call yourself a Republican or Conservative, and the GOP walked down a path that has not at all been easy to backtrack to the point of departure. We have RINO's in high office, running for President, seated on important Congressional committees, even in the White House, because Republicans and a lot of Conservatives, for that matter, saw nothing wrong with wandering off the reservation now and then. After all, what harm could it cause, anyway? Right?]

I am by no means the exemplary Catholic. I spent a good part of my life in the wilderness…was an ELCA Lutheran for a while, even toyed with a local mega-Christian non-denominational church for a very short time.

But, the biggest rise among young people looking toward the Church of Rome in recent years has been because of Pope Benedict XVI. His appeal to the basics has made significant inroads among young people looking for somethiug that has meaning beyond the latest fad. A lot of youth around the world understand that when one stands for everything, one stands for nothing.

The Roman Catholic Church gives them, me, a lot of us, a foundation from which to deal with the temporal world. All in all not a bad thing.

Which is perhaps one reason why I find it something…well something that smacks of opportunism, when I hear people in positions of power calling themselves faithful Roman Catholics yet engage in activities not consistent with the teachings of the Church. As if being Roman Catholic is just something to check off on the resume in order to get ahead. I am not the One to judge them. But, as a free choice, I sure don’t have to vote for them.

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 2:43 PM

In fact, scientists have a dismal track record when they step out of their extremely limited bounds of expertise and try to pontificate on moral matters.

jeff_from_mpls on August 7, 2008 at 2:27 PM

What happens, though, when scientific knowledge itself contradicts or calls into question previously held religious beliefs? For example, many believe that a fertilized human egg (a zygote) is itself a human being. It is not, though; it could be one, two, three, or more human beings, depending on the trajectory of development. Certain experiments have shown that this is not just a spontaneous process, but can be controlled in the laboratory; a scientist can take an embryo, pluck a cell or a few cells off of it, and set it on its own separate developmental path. That’s just one example of the areas in which science and religion and social policy can run into disagreements. Homosexuality is another.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 2:44 PM

Why do people view the Roman Catholic Church in such a negative light? If you don’t wish to follow the teachings of the Church, then find another. But don’t do so and then claim you are a Roman Catholic. One is. Or one isn’t.

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 1:44 PM

From purely a political view – it might be the Vatican is a political entity and wants to treated like a government instead of a religion. They (Vatican) are always telling governments what they do is right or wrong. Read their history about controlling governments throughout the ages. Among the major religious organizations only the Muslims are more into their religion being the state.
Much of my family is Catholic, but fortunately most are also Conservative and vote that way.

Corsair on August 7, 2008 at 2:44 PM

“Also, is it then the churches postion that it’s God’s intent for people to abstain from sex unless they are ready and determined to bear children (referring to your “procreation as well as pleasure” comment) even if they are married? Or are they expected to “roll the dice” and just accept any outcome as “God’s will”?”

Neither – Catholics are permitted by doctrine to use non-barrier, non-artificial type birth control (i.e. rhythm method).

Catholics believe marriages should be open to children.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 2:45 PM

Thanks to Obama’s Catholic outreach director for posting here, I hope all Catholics realize how the Democrats feel about their faith.

I’m afraid that they don’t. Otherwise I would certainly be more inclined to support Democrats.

I’m obligated to remind others that science is not in the business of right and wrong. It’s job is to figure out the mathematical laws of the physical universe. Period.

This is only partly true. There exist statements validity of which science cannot measure. That much I will grant you. However, not every statement that YOU THINK is purely moral, really is. And this one certainly isn’t.

freevillage on August 7, 2008 at 2:45 PM

Is it? With the exception of Europe in general, there has been widespread growth of the Roman Catholic Church around the world.

Yes, but are they all “with the program” on every issue? I seem to recall some contentious disagreements between the Vatican and churches in Africa and South America, not to mention the USA and Europe.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 2:45 PM

Catholics are democrats in every single way, except in regards to abortion.

Tim Burton on August 7, 2008 at 2:46 PM

Thy will be done is a mighty good thing to pray for.

jeff_from_mpls on August 7, 2008 at 2:37 PM

Certainly. I can’t imagine any Christian disagreeing with that.

But the way I practice my faith allows me to also decide when I ready to have children, without breaking the rule Paul gives about not denying your spouse. My method isn’t a 100% (none but abstinence are), so were I to get pregnant anyway, I would definitely take that “it’s God’s will” mindset.

However, without taking birth control, having sex isn’t just saying, “if it’s God’s will.” It’s basically trying to get pregnant. The only clear sign in that case of God’s will is if you don’t get pregnant.

Then again, I’m probably in the wrong state to discuss this anyway, as I don’t think sex is primarily about having children. Obviously I agree that the function of sex in general is to have children, but it’s much more important than that in a marriage and continues to be that important even after the woman reaches menopause. If God didn’t want us to enjoy sex just for the sake of sex (within marriage), then sex after 50 wouldn’t make any sense, and neither would sex while pregnant.

Esthier on August 7, 2008 at 2:48 PM

I have a whole extended family of liberal catholics who vote democrat. And every election I ask them – “If you don’t get to be born, what else matters?” You know, I never get an answer.

Awilson on August 7, 2008 at 2:50 PM

As a former Catholic, I’ll first admit I never was a very good Catholic in the first place. What really started my dislike of the catechism was the stance on birth control – I wondered why it was a sin to take the Pill to correct my body’s imbalances (not to prevent pregnancy). My priest informed me that God made my body the way it was, and I should learn to live with it. It wasn’t the only reason why I left, but it didn’t help matters any. I don’t have a grudge per se, but my opinion on the Catholic Church is biased (although I will always have a place in my heart for Pope John Paul II).

Abortion and birth control are only two facets out of many when it comes to political platforms. They should be considered, yes, as should every other issue (war/peace, economy, social programs, etc) before making a decision. I can understand using one’s religion to help make the process easier, but one should rely on their own common sense and not always vote for the candidate the Church endorses. I have a feeling that if more Catholics did that, they’d be voting more conservatively.

Are the majority of all voters single issue? I’m simply curious, as I’ve never picked a candidate soley for a position on a single issue.

Anna on August 7, 2008 at 2:51 PM

pedestrian on August 7, 2008 at 1:27 PM

Great point.

Weight of Glory on August 7, 2008 at 2:52 PM

I have a whole extended family of liberal catholics who vote democrat. And every election I ask them – “If you don’t get to be born, what else matters?” You know, I never get an answer.

Awilson on August 7, 2008 at 2:50 PM

because the answer is ugly….they put their perceived economic interests above their morality.

right4life on August 7, 2008 at 2:55 PM

“not always vote for the candidate the Church endorses.”

The Catholic Church does not endorse candidates.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 2:56 PM

Discourse is not preaching. It is something Aquinas did routinely and very very well. In many ways it is almost hegelian…thesis and anti-thesis until a Truth is reached.

Like those who beleive the Constitution is a living document and must change with the times and the mores of the people there are those who believe the Teachings of the Church are living, and must be shaped and changed by people over time or in any given time.

Without fundamentals on which to build the Church, or for that matter, a political party, what is the result? A condition where everything is anything and anything goes?

Don’t have to look too far this election season to see where this sort of widespread thinking has gotten us. This election, for the Dems, is not at all about liberal ideas or the basics of Democrat ideals…it has become embodied in Obama, and if one is against Obama then one is anethema to all other Dems. For the GOP…if we had stuck to the fundamentals, would McCain be fighting an uphill battle against Obama today? Would McCain even be our nominee?

Benedict admonished young people and people of my generation, as well, to study the teachings of the Church, and contemplate how we fit in. Then, making a personal choice, fit in well, or determine if we indeed fit in at all. He isn’t saying if you don’t believe, take a hike. He is saying that if you don’t fit in, find out why? Most of that time the “why” is more about personal choices, personal desires and priorities more than it is about accepting Christ in our lives. This is where the fundamentals have their place. No foundation? Nothing else can be built. And if built, damn the torpedoes, it will crumble. Pretty basic stuff.

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 2:58 PM

Not to belabor the topic, but would you like to hear what God says: “When My PEOPLE, who are called by My Name shall humble THEMSELVES and call on My Name in prayer, than shall I hear from heaven and heal their land.”

The Bible in many instances holds the WHOLE people responsible for what one person does, and also holds the WHOLE people responsible for what the nation does.

TimothyJ on August 7, 2008 at 2:59 PM

being a Roman Catholic is a personal choice. If it fits a person and their outlook on the world and their relationship with God, all well and good. If it doesn’t fit, there are other religions to choose from.
coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 1:55 PM

I guess what I find a little disturbing (and it may be just the way I interpret what you posted) is the idea that faith is some sort of cafeteria-style menu. If you don’t like Catholicism just order yourself up a big old heaping of Baptist or Lutheran (or whatever). Perhaps with a side of new age on the side to wash it all down.

I hold that American secular society is too much into the idea that faith should be comfortable. That faith and one’s relationship with God should always be an arrangement that says one’s sinful behavior is acceptable in God’s eyes. That isn’t how faith works at all.

In other words, one belongs to a certain faith because they believe what that faith says about God. It may not be comfortable or easy but the revealed truth of God is definitely not something one should choose off a cafeteria-style menu where you select which parts you hold true and which parts you just ignore. Faith is a fixed menu where you accept it all or not.

P.S. My Presbyterian church just broke away from the Presbyterian Church (USA) because of the denomination’s social activism. Spending more time discussing social justice and calling for boycotts of Taco Bell, Burger King, and Catapiller Tractors than they were spending on Christ’s message. Our congregation joined the Evangelical Presbyterian Church which rejects much of the 20th “revelations” about faith and emphasizes the Westminster Confessions. It has renewed and reenergized my faith in ways I thought impossible.

highhopes on August 7, 2008 at 3:00 PM

The Catholic Church does not endorse candidates.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 2:56 PM

No, not outright. But the influence is there.

Anna on August 7, 2008 at 3:01 PM

Are the majority of all voters single issue? I’m simply curious, as I’ve never picked a candidate soley for a position on a single issue.

Anna on August 7, 2008 at 2:51 PM

I’d say it depends on the issue and the context. To a great extent, there were single issue voters for GWB in 2004 and the issue was Iraq and supporting our efforts there. Likewise, Obama enjoys many single issue voters and the issue for them is getting a minority elected to the presidency.

While many voters look at various issues when selecting a candidate to support, I suspect the number who become single issue voters (selecting this guy over that one for a single reason) is higher than is claimed. Look at the number of posters on this forum who demand we all support John McCain for the singular reason that Obama is worse. To do so for that reason seems like a textbook example of single issue voting.

highhopes on August 7, 2008 at 3:08 PM

That’s a great way to decrease the number of Catholics. I’m not saying that it should be easy to be Catholic, but it is the nature of religion to have disagreement among adherents, if not on theology then at least on doctrinal priority.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 2:02 PM

Big: There are lots of things that faithful Roman Catholics can and do disagree on, and we often have lively discussions. However, the church is not a democracy, and there are certain doctrines and beliefs that are deemed sacrosanct. The absolute evil of abortion is one of them. If we have fewer members, so be it. I would rather have public figures like Kerry, Boxer, Pelosi, Kennedy, Sebelius, et. al., get honest with themselves and move on to another religion. They are an embarrassment. I was very happy that Gov. Sebelius was asked by her bishop, twice, to stop receiving the Eucharist. Would we had more courageous bishops!

marybel on August 7, 2008 at 3:09 PM

highhopes on August 7, 2008 at 3:00 PM –

Cafeteria Catholicism has been around for a long long time, especially here in America. What I meant (and perhaos where you had your disconnect) is that there are a great many Catholics who say they are Catholics, yet, when it comes to following the teachings of the Church, they pick and chose which teachings they like…the lime jello…and which ones they don’t like …the broccoli. Yet, when asked, or even worse, when stumping for the vote, they call themselves faithful Catholics.

Living Catholic has never been easy. Living one’s faith, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, or whatever in our America, should never be easy. If it were, we’d be a theocracy, something even I do not wish to ever happen here.

And, lastly, this is indeed a deep emotional issue for me. Something with which I am not comfortable discussing. It causes me to think deeply and think beyond myself, and my today, and my world, and what I am doing daily to follow my Faith. Overall, pretty good, nowhere near the upper percentiles by any stretch of the imagination, but my personal struggle with my Catholicism goes on. Even then I find comfort in it all.

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 3:11 PM

“No, not outright. But the influence is there.”

Agree, but what’s really wrong with that?

At least you don’t see politicians making partisan speeches in Catholic Churches, unlike some other churches I could name.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 3:19 PM

There are lots of things that faithful Roman Catholics can and do disagree on, and we often have lively discussions. However, the church is not a democracy, and there are certain doctrines and beliefs that are deemed sacrosanct. The absolute evil of abortion is one of them. If we have fewer members, so be it. I would rather have public figures like Kerry, Boxer, Pelosi, Kennedy, Sebelius, et. al., get honest with themselves and move on to another religion. They are an embarrassment. I was very happy that Gov. Sebelius was asked by her bishop, twice, to stop receiving the Eucharist. Would we had more courageous bishops!

marybel on August 7, 2008 at 3:09 PM

The characterization of certain practices as “absolute evil” is one place in which people who call themselves Catholic might disagree with current Church teaching. I say “current” because past Popes have proclaimed a variety of different criteria for the status of a fetus, and therefore the Church’s attitudes toward abortion. The influence of those who were not entirely “with the program” regarding abortion led to the current teaching.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 3:24 PM

Living one’s faith, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, or whatever in our America, should never be easy.

Well said.

You know they’ve done studies that show how few youth are involved with any faith these days and the dismal drop off rate of even those when they get out on their own as young adults. Some of them return to faith later in life (like when they start having children of their own) but the numbers doing so are depressingly small. I attribute much of the blame to the secularization of society and the lack of faith-based examples in the home.

American society needs a religious re-awakening and I believe the first step is to throw out the idea that faith is something that is comfortable or what you pay attention to when it is convenient. Faith should be at the forefront of one’s every decision not something that one finds rationalizations to work around when the answer isn’t the easy one (sorta like re-shaking the Magic 8 Ball until it gives you the answer you want).

highhopes on August 7, 2008 at 3:25 PM

Are the majority of all voters single issue? I’m simply curious, as I’ve never picked a candidate soley for a position on a single issue.

Anna on August 7, 2008 at 2:51 PM

I can only answer for myself, and I’ll have to admit that the first time I voted, I was basically a single issue voter.

I’d grown up in a Republican household and generally agreed with everything I knew the party to stand for, but in 2000 I was 18 and was more interested in voting for the first time and graduating high school and finding the right college, and prom, and dating issues, and so many other things than researching political candidates that I went with the issue that mattered most to me, abortion.

As I said, I generally liked everything the GOP stood for (at least everything I knew about), but no other issue really captured my attention.

After 9/11 that changed.

Esthier on August 7, 2008 at 3:27 PM

You know they’ve done studies that show how few youth are involved with any faith these days and the dismal drop off rate of even those when they get out on their own as young adults. Some of them return to faith later in life (like when they start having children of their own) but the numbers doing so are depressingly small. I attribute much of the blame to the secularization of society and the lack of faith-based examples in the home.

Maybe the obsession of certain religious leaders with issues like abortion and gay marriage is what is making them less enthusiastic about it.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 3:34 PM

I attribute much of the blame to the secularization of society and the lack of faith-based examples in the home.

I wouldn’t. I’d attribute it to churches that are unwilling to adapt to meet the needs of younger people.

There are plenty of things that can be done, for one, not making people get up early on a day off in order to attend church, but many churches simply don’t want to change.

I don’t blame them for not changing, but I also don’t blame young people for deciding church isn’t necessary for a fulfilling spiritual life.

Esthier on August 7, 2008 at 3:35 PM

Unwilling to adapt? This is fine, if you are running a clothing shop at the mall, matter of fact, something that is highly recommended…adapt. Asking God [through the Church or our Faith] to adapt to our desires? Sorta diminsishes the entire concept.

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 3:38 PM

Tim Burton on August 7, 2008 at 2:46 PM

That’s a bit of an over-generalization regarding Catholics. I happen to be Catholic and am anything BUT a Democrat. I’m sure there are several thousand if not more who aren’t Democrats.

Torch on August 7, 2008 at 3:39 PM

Maybe the obsession of certain religious leaders with issues like abortion and gay marriage is what is making them less enthusiastic about it.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 3:34 PM

so if they dumped the bible they’d be more popular??? hasn’t worked for the mainline protestants.

in fact the fastest growing part of christianity is the pentecostal/fundamentalist groups.

right4life on August 7, 2008 at 3:39 PM

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 3:38 PM

You’ve misunderstood me.

I’m not talking about changing anything but cosmetics, which every single church has done since the book of Acts.

Those popular hymns you sing in church, many came from popular bar songs, the equivalent of rewriting the lyrics to a pop secular song today. Keeping them instead of going with something more contemporary cause you don’t want to adapt to the times is a little ridiculous.

And no, God is not the church. I’m actually offended by the concept.

Esthier on August 7, 2008 at 3:42 PM

so if they dumped the bible they’d be more popular??? hasn’t worked for the mainline protestants.

in fact the fastest growing part of christianity is the pentecostal/fundamentalist groups.

right4life on August 7, 2008 at 3:39 PM

Last time I checked, there was more to the Bible than any verses that might deal with those policies. I go to a mainline Protestant church that welcomes homosexual couples to services that deal exclusively with Biblical teachings. It’s growing too.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 3:45 PM

Economic fairness? I make six figures now….after busting my hump for thirty years to get there. I put in the work, I get the reward. You want the reward? Get off your ass and earn it. THAT’S economic fairness.

Patrick S on August 7, 2008 at 1:28 PM

.
Now that is a candidate for post of the year.

Think_b4_speaking on August 7, 2008 at 3:46 PM

No offense meant…but God, our concept of God, pessonal concept or one derived from the teachings of the Church, is not something one should expect or hope or desire to change to meet a temporal popular desire. The fact that so many, and so many Catholics at that, over the past decades since Vatican II, especially, expect exactly that to happen…well, it shows how little real honest contemplative thought they give to the concept of God and humankind.

coldwarrior on August 7, 2008 at 3:46 PM

“There are plenty of things that can be done, for one, not making people get up early on a day off in order to attend church, but many churches simply don’t want to change.”

Catholic Churches celebrate Mass at 5:00 p.m. on Saturday and noon on Sunday. When I attended Mass at Saint Louis University, it was celebrated at 10:00 p.m. on Sunday night precisely for Catholic students.

And actually, due to my job and other factors, I attend serveral different Catholic Churches and they all are filled, so this idea that no one goes to Mass anymore is overblown.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 3:46 PM

No offense meant…but God, our concept of God, pessonal concept or one derived from the teachings of the Church, is not something one should expect or hope or desire to change to meet a temporal popular desire.

Which is why I never said a thing about changing that. I thought I made that clear enough by stating “cosmetic” changes.

I’m not sure what else I can add to that.

Tell me what’s so misleading about my post so that I might help you out better.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 3:46 PM

A couple things… I’m not Catholic, so obviously I don’t know a thing about when you guys go to church. Most protestant churches have a Sunday morning and a Sunday night services (many are even doing away with the Sunday night services), so that comment was mostly aimed at them.

But that’s not the only thing churches can do to adapt. It’s just the main one that keeps me from making it to church on Sundays.

And last, this wasn’t about people in general not attending mass but about the poor attendance seen in young Christians of all denominations. It’s just true that most young people chose not to attend church even if they start going again after having kids.

The church is simply not appealing to people of that age group.

Esthier on August 7, 2008 at 3:53 PM

Last time I checked, there was more to the Bible than any verses that might deal with those policies.

so you ignore the parts of the bible that offend homosexuals, or any other group? so if homosexuality and abortion is OK, then you don’t have biblical christianity..you have your own religion.

I go to a mainline Protestant church that welcomes homosexual couples to services that deal exclusively with Biblical teachings. It’s growing too.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 3:45 PM

but could it even be called christian? are you talking about the episcopals? If you water down the bible to please certain groups, so they can continue in their sin…then what do you have?

right4life on August 7, 2008 at 3:54 PM

Last time I checked, there was more to the Bible than any verses that might deal with those policies. I go to a mainline Protestant church that welcomes homosexual couples to services that deal exclusively with Biblical teachings. It’s growing too.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 3:45 PM

.
As my grandmother used to say, ‘if a church abandons its priciples, and goes along with the latest fads, it is no longer a church, but a social club’. I think that is a powerful statement.

Think_b4_speaking on August 7, 2008 at 4:00 PM

“And last, this wasn’t about people in general not attending mass but about the poor attendance seen in young Christians of all denominations. It’s just true that most young people chose not to attend church even if they start going again after having kids.”

Again, this is just my experience, but I attended Saint Louis University and Masses there were standing room only – with college kids, not kids being dragged there by their parents. I attended the Pope’s Mass in Washington and there were lots of young people there.

As far as changing music, etc. to attract young people, if want they want is some trendy microcosm of popular culture, they’re not going to want to go to Mass in any case.

And those of us who attend Mass regularly don’t want it to change. In fact, one trend sweeping the Catholic Church is the Latin Mass.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 4:02 PM

but could it even be called christian? are you talking about the episcopals? If you water down the bible to please certain groups, so they can continue in their sin…then what do you have?

right4life on August 7, 2008 at 3:54 PM

Of course it’s Christian (not Episcopal, although I was baptized into that church), just not fundamentalist.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 4:04 PM

As my grandmother used to say, ‘if a church abandons its priciples, and goes along with the latest fads, it is no longer a church, but a social club’. I think that is a powerful statement.

Think_b4_speaking on August 7, 2008 at 4:00 PM

Since when do opposition to homosexuality or abortion account for all of a church’s principles?

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 4:06 PM

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 3:45 PM

Fair warning… you really don’t want to continue that discussion, especially not with right4life.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 4:02 PM

Well, like I said, I hardly know a thing about Catholics.

Esthier on August 7, 2008 at 4:07 PM

What happens, though, when scientific knowledge itself contradicts or calls into question previously held religious beliefs? For example, many believe that a fertilized human egg (a zygote) is itself a human being. It is not, though; it could be one, two, three, or more human beings, depending on the trajectory of development.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 2:44 PM

So let me get this straight. Are you actually saying that just because there’s some unknown about whether there will be one, two, three or more human beings… it’s ok to just kill them all? Wow, that’s just cold.

dominigan on August 7, 2008 at 4:09 PM

Since when do opposition to homosexuality or abortion account for all of a church’s principles?

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 4:06 PM

.
If a church is willing to ignore the Bible on two of the most basic principles of behavior in Christianity, what else will they water down?

Think_b4_speaking on August 7, 2008 at 4:13 PM

If a church is willing to ignore the Bible on two of the most basic principles of behavior in Christianity, what else will they water down?

Think_b4_speaking on August 7, 2008 at 4:13 PM

So heterosexuality is one of the most basic principles of behavior in Christianity? I guess I must have missed a little Sunday school.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 4:16 PM

So heterosexuality is one of the most basic principles of behavior in Christianity? I guess I must have missed a little Sunday school.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 4:16 PM

.
Leviticus chap 18 and 20
Romans chap 1
1 Corinthians chap 6
1 Timothy chap 1

etc, etc, etc – I guess you did….

Think_b4_speaking on August 7, 2008 at 4:20 PM

That’s a great way to decrease the number of Catholics. I’m not saying that it should be easy to be Catholic, but it is the nature of religion to have disagreement among adherents, if not on theology then at least on doctrinal priority.
Big S on August 7, 2008 at 2:02 PM

So be it. It’s not a popularity contest. You is or you ain’t. You do or you don’t. Your choice.

Oh, and Kmiec ain’t, by his own choice.

Nichevo on August 7, 2008 at 4:22 PM

Mr. Kmiec needs to explain in detail just how a “human being” becomes a human being unless there is merger of an egg and a sperm with the unique “human” genetic structure in the DNA. Then Mr. Kmiec and his ilk need to explain to me why the females of this country have aborted over forty million…that is 40,000,000 plus babies in the past 30 plus years. That is 40,000,000 humans, on of which might have come up with a solution for clean, plentiful energy for America and the world…or, name your “thing”. They killed them and they do not want to take the responsibility of their actions!! So, for the Lefties out there, what else is new with you?

sharinlite on August 7, 2008 at 4:23 PM

I’m glad I don’t have to depend on the aritrary Machiavellian rulings of a disgraced mystical oligarchy before I make my political decisions.

Dr. Manhattan on August 7, 2008 at 1:37 PM

I’m glad the Roman Catholic oligarchy is pro life, and sticks to their convictions on the subject.

Right_of_Attila on August 7, 2008 at 4:28 PM

Think_b4_speaking on August 7, 2008 at 4:20 PM

There’s a difference between recognizing what the Bible says and making it a priority in your services. My point is that the obsessive focus on things like homosexuality is a reason why many young people (who understand that being gay is not just a “lifestyle choice” but is part of an individual’s identity) are turned off by those, like yourself, who consider it to be one of the two most important issues facing Christians.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 4:29 PM

My point is that the obsessive focus on things like homosexuality is a reason why many young people (who understand that being gay is not just a “lifestyle choice” but is part of an individual’s identity) are turned off by those, like yourself, who consider it to be one of the two most important issues facing Christians.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 4:29 PM

.
That’s fine, if they don’t want to accept the teachings of the Bible, they don’t have to attend a church. They can find a social club instead. BTW, I have several friends who used to be homosexual – they don’t contend that being gay is not a matter of choice.

Think_b4_speaking on August 7, 2008 at 4:34 PM

I don’t think we should throw away tenets of our religion that have existed for 2000 years, simply because they don’t poll well with the young demographic.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 4:35 PM

I don’t think we should throw away tenets of our religion that have existed for 2000 years, simply because they don’t poll well with the young demographic.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 4:35 PM

.
+1, why can’t I be that concise?

Think_b4_speaking on August 7, 2008 at 4:37 PM

My point is that the obsessive focus on things like homosexuality is a reason why many young people (who understand that being gay is not just a “lifestyle choice” but is part of an individual’s identity)

Homosexuality is a sin. Opting to be a practicing homosexual (i.e. living a homosexual lifestyle and emphasizing sexual orientation as a key part of their identity) is most definitely a choice.

highhopes on August 7, 2008 at 4:43 PM

I don’t think we should throw away tenets of our religion that have existed for 2000 years, simply because they don’t poll well with the young demographic.

NoDonkey on August 7, 2008 at 4:35 PM

The thing is, they haven’t existed for 2000 years. For instance, the modern Catholic position on abortion (it’s murder any time after conception) is nearing its 140 year anniversary.

Big S on August 7, 2008 at 4:44 PM

“Thou shalt not steal.”

This prohibits socialism.

End of story.

Akzed on August 7, 2008 at 4:44 PM

No time to read the comments, sorry. Wanted to fill in the blanks on the Kmiec/Communion story. Here, here, and here.

Jaibones on August 7, 2008 at 4:45 PM

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