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The idiots who slander the name of Lincoln are fighting a losing battle. This man is legend, in a way that few ever reach.
I think Tim is an idiot.

carbon_footprint on August 6, 2008 at 10:10 PM

Great rebuttal there.

Tim Burton on August 6, 2008 at 10:13 PM

I gave you the benefit of the doubt on called Lincoln a ‘murdering racist’. You have proved yourself an idiot and your stupid questionable “blog” links and trash books do not prove anything. If you are a Lincoln hater, you are in the smallest minority in the nation. I would recommend that you take some advice from the so-called ‘murdering racist’ and:
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
Abraham Lincoln

Idiot.

carbon_footprint on August 6, 2008 at 10:08 PM

Nice try, you first start up with a bunch of ad hominem attacks and then dismiss the historical facts.

It is well known that Lincoln ordered the murder of those Indians.

It is also well known that he wanted to deport blacks, until he realized it was impossible to get them back. He has plenty of racist quotes.

Tim Burton on August 6, 2008 at 10:17 PM

Wow Tim, you really must be an racist. John Brown died for the slaves.

carbon_footprint on August 6, 2008 at 10:14 PM

Yes, you know you lost the argument when you claim the other person is racist. Sorta like Godwin’s Law.

He died for the slaves? Well, he sure liked to kill people:

In 1856, three years before his celebrated raid on Harpers Ferry, John Brown, with four of his sons and three others, dragged five unarmed men and boys from their homes along Kansas’s Pottawatomie Creek, and hacked and dismembered their bodies as if they were cattle being butchered in a stockyard.

Tim Burton on August 6, 2008 at 10:24 PM

Oh really? Well known is a stretch.
Who said: “The only good injun is a dead one”?
Was that Lincoln you arrogant, misinformed troll?

carbon_footprint on August 6, 2008 at 10:21 PM

LOL! No that quote was by Philip Sheridan. Ironically enough, he served under Lincoln.

Tim Burton on August 6, 2008 at 10:26 PM

Then produce them.

Spirit of 1776 on August 6, 2008 at 10:19 PM

I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man.

Lincoln in his speech to Charleston, Illinois, 1858

My first impulse would possibly be to free all slaves and send them to Liberia to their own native land. But a moment’s reflection would convince me that this would not be best for them. If they were all landed there in a day they would all perish in the next ten days, and there is not surplus money enough to carry them there in many times ten days. What then? Free them all and keep them among us as underlings. Is it quite certain that this would alter their conditions? Free them and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this,

Lincoln in speeches at Peoria, Illinois

Also, when realizing that freeing the slaves and sending them back to Africa wouldn’t work, Ben Butler suggested Lincoln send them to dig the Panama Canal. Lincoln thought it was a great idea.

“You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other 2 races. Even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race. you are cut off from many of the advantages which the other race enjoys. It is better for us both to be separated.”

Abraham Lincoln, during a meeting with free Negro leaders, at the White House, August, 1862

Tim Burton on August 6, 2008 at 10:35 PM

You are 100% correct. The states did have the right to secede as they saw fit. However, the South also made the choice to attack Ft. Sumpter and starting the war.

carbon_footprint on August 6, 2008 at 10:45 PM

Except that the Federal Government was possessing/trespassing on land they did not own, nor have any right to in possession of it.

Tim Burton on August 6, 2008 at 10:48 PM

Everything he says pre-war is said with the mindset that Union must be preserved first. Like many of the fathers, he thought slavery would die of it’s own. None of his political positions were about race equality, they were about preserving the Union with the understanding that preventing the expansion of slavery would kill it.

His conclusion: I’m not sure what the best course of action is. Hardly hate-filled racist speech.

His ‘62 speech is, I think, accurate of the conclusions he had come to in his life’s experience. Disparity and hatred in his lifetime gave little hope for reunification between the races. Again, look at the next 100 years. Race is an issue even today

Spirit of 1776 on August 6, 2008 at 10:47 PM

Some of the other quotes are just damning. I will grant you that there he was more “moderate”.

Ultimately, he was willing to let slavery be forever if it just brought back the Union. His allowing the moving of the Corwin Amendment shows that intent.

Also, we need to remember that slavery was dying. Do not forget that Jefferson Davis was working on ways to teach slaves how to be a part of society. This included teaching his slaves to read. He also never punished slaves, he allowed the slaves to bring charges and have a jury of other slaves make the judgment. He couldn’t increase the penalty, but he could commute it. He also was very active in a group who sought that when slavery was ended to keep it from being such a mess-up as occurred in England. While many Southerners wanted slavery forever, many wanted it ended. They found it offensive that the North free their slaves slowly with enough time to allow the owners to take them south.

That isn’t even getting into the dirty little secrets about slavery, such as:

1. Blacks owned slaves, including at a higher per a capita rate than whites in NOLA.
2. A black man brought lifetime slavery to the Colonies (Antonio the Negro)
3. There where white slaves.

Tim Burton on August 6, 2008 at 10:57 PM

The Corwin Ad was to restrict the expansion of slavery permanently. And then allow slavery to die it’s natural death in the states it was already legal in.

Spirit of 1776 on August 6, 2008 at 10:53 PM

Except, have you read the Admendment? It didn’t do that:

No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.

Nothing about it would have limited slavery from any state that chose to allow it.

Tim Burton on August 6, 2008 at 11:00 PM

Wow, we hijacked this thread in a big way. Sorry Allah.
Tim, I take back my calling you a fool and an idiot.
However, the ’stupid’ label still applies to your Lincoln hating.
; P
Goodnight everyone.
Enjoyed the ‘history lesson’.

carbon_footprint on August 6, 2008 at 10:53 PM

That is fine, we will agree to disagree. Just next time, try not to devolve into name calling, it just makes you look dumb.

And by the way, I have a whole branch of blacks in my family tree. I also have a branch of Mexicans too. So think about it before tossing the “racist” word around.

Tim Burton on August 6, 2008 at 11:05 PM

Don’t lecture me.
Just because you have black and Mexican blood does not make you an authority on race. I have black blood as well. So what?
But I digress, we disagree about Abe Lincoln.
It is sad to me that any American would be deprived of a great man of his caliber.

carbon_footprint on August 6, 2008 at 11:09 PM

No, it doesn’t, but it doesn’t give you the right to call me a racist for taking a different view about a man. Especially when you don’t know my lineage.

Tim Burton on August 6, 2008 at 11:27 PM