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Big breakthrough on solar power?

posted at 6:20 pm on August 1, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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A research team at MIT claims they have discovered a process that will make solar power practical for mass production of energy, even when the sun doesn’t shine. Using photosynthesis as a guide, the team believes it has discovered the “nirvana” of exploiting the sun’s power to generate a reliable, stable, and safe source for electricity:

Until now, solar power has been a daytime-only energy source, because storing extra solar energy for later use is prohibitively expensive and grossly inefficient. With today’s announcement, MIT researchers have hit upon a simple, inexpensive, highly efficient process for storing solar energy.

Requiring nothing but abundant, non-toxic natural materials, this discovery could unlock the most potent, carbon-free energy source of all: the sun. “This is the nirvana of what we’ve been talking about for years,” said MIT’s Daniel Nocera, the Henry Dreyfus Professor of Energy at MIT and senior author of a paper describing the work in the July 31 issue of Science. “Solar power has always been a limited, far-off solution. Now we can seriously think about solar power as unlimited and soon.”

Inspired by the photosynthesis performed by plants, Nocera and Matthew Kanan, a postdoctoral fellow in Nocera’s lab, have developed an unprecedented process that will allow the sun’s energy to be used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen gases. Later, the oxygen and hydrogen may be recombined inside a fuel cell, creating carbon-free electricity to power your house or your electric car, day or night.

I’ve been through the cold-fusion roller coaster before, so color me skeptical at the moment. The study got published yesterday, and Nocera and Kanan will have to endure the scrutiny of their peers. However, if this works and is as cheap as people believe, it could revolutionize energy production, at least for certain applications.

Solar energy’s drawback has always been storage. Solar cells produce electricity with good efficiency when the sun shines, but at night or under overcast conditions, production becomes unreliable. The same is true for other environmental-based alternatives such as wind power, hydro, and other “boutique” offerings, as the article calls them. Fuel cells work well, but the big problem is in generating the hydrogen cheaply and efficiently. Current electrolyzers were either too expensive or used dangerous and damaging materials.

This solution combines the best of both worlds. When the sun shines, the photovoltaic energy can produce enough electricity to power a house or a car as well as photosynthesize the elements of a fuel cell. Instead of storing electrical energy in a battery, the fuel cell retains the elements needed to provide power when the solar panels or wind turbines drop production rates.

If this pans out, it could decentralize electrical production and allow each household to run independently from the grid, or even sell excess power back to the grid as some do now. Electric vehicles would become much more practical with fuel cells rather than massive batteries, and distribution of fuel-cell hydrogen would no longer be required. It could spell an end to most emissions problems and make the US completely independent of all foreign oil sources in a short period of time.

That is, of course, a mighty big if.  It could also be cold fusion.  We need to continue drilling oil in the near term to ensure energy security and protect our economy.  But it’s worth watching.


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Comment pages: 1 2

Ed, there’s a difference between this and cold fusion. This is being published in Science, a notoriously difficult to get into and serious journal (at least for the hard sciences). So this paper has already undergone at least one level of peer review.

Cold fusion hysteria started before peer reviewed articles, with the press used to bypass the usual scientific gatekeepers.

nerdbert on August 1, 2008 at 6:25 PM

I’ll volunteer to test it–just give me allllll the solar cells I need and a grid intertie… I don’t mind using solar, as long as I don’t have to pay for it.

Vanceone on August 1, 2008 at 6:27 PM

Lawsuits will be brought by the same environ-mentals who are suing current wind and solar projects. It seems that some circles won’t be satisfied until current civilisation is brought to a crashing halt, and we are all living in yurts and straw bale huts, with hand crank generators. Sometimes progress isn’t “progressive.”

silverfox on August 1, 2008 at 6:28 PM

Dudeo rly?

TheUnrepentantGeek on August 1, 2008 at 6:29 PM

“an unprecedented process that will allow the sun’s energy to be used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen gases.”

Like electrolysis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis Hardly unprecedented. The application might be.

kc8ukw on August 1, 2008 at 6:29 PM

i feel so so so so SO bad for the saudis…

reliapundit on August 1, 2008 at 6:30 PM

Hook it up to a nuke plant and go 24/7/365

mred on August 1, 2008 at 6:31 PM

Lawsuits will be brought by the same environ-mentals who are suing current wind and solar projects. It seems that some circles won’t be satisfied until current civilisation is brought to a crashing halt, and we are all living in yurts and straw bale huts, with hand crank generators. Sometimes progress isn’t “progressive.”

silverfox on August 1, 2008 at 6:28 PM

Why can’t you neocon warmonger zionazi fascists understand that subsistence farming makes Gaia happy?!?

TheUnrepentantGeek on August 1, 2008 at 6:31 PM

“an unprecedented process that will allow the sun’s energy to be used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen gases.”

Like electrolysis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis Hardly unprecedented. The application might be.

Apparently the break through here is the discovery (or invention) of a catalyst that makes this process significantly more efficient.

SPCOlympics on August 1, 2008 at 6:33 PM

Sweet…

Claypigeon on August 1, 2008 at 6:35 PM

But Im addicted to oil, dammit! OIL!!!!!!

Chuck Schick on August 1, 2008 at 6:35 PM

I question the timing.
(somebody had to say it!)

redshirt on August 1, 2008 at 6:36 PM

Won’t the byproduct of the fuel cell be water vapor—an much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2? I guess you could precipitate the water vapor and reuse it, though.

jdpaz on August 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM

Call me when it can make a plane fly.

Les in NC on August 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM

Hmmm… no word on how energy efficient this is.

ie, how much is lost going from sunlight, to Hydrogen, to burn in the cell to make power….

Romeo13 on August 1, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Calling Les in NC

jdpaz on August 1, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Wonderful news. Let’s hope it’s more than just a replacement for flashlight batteries.

byteshredder on August 1, 2008 at 6:39 PM

It won’t help yer wallet. Some other country will steal the technology and sell it back to us.

RushBaby on August 1, 2008 at 6:39 PM

This will encourage people to vote for Obama even more, since his warmth and light will give us all the solar energy we would need.

Lincoln on August 1, 2008 at 6:41 PM

Faster, please.

Techie on August 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Oh give it up already. It will take 10 years to do this.

mred on August 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Oh give it up already. It will take 10 years to do this.

mred on August 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

When facts change, change your opinion.

To do otherwise is to be a liberal.

apollyonbob on August 1, 2008 at 6:43 PM

Hate to bust the bubble (well, actually, no, I enjoy it) but this depends on fuel cells. Fuel cells depend on platinum. We would all be using fuel cells already if there were (1) an abundant source of platinum and (2) a method for putting very thin (1-2 molecules) layers of platinum on a nonmetallic substrate.
Look here, then google “platinum production”.

Furthermore, it is not a technology that is applicable to mobile applications (cars, etc.) because the hydrogen comes off at atmospheric pressure. You do not want to see the tank needed to hold a reasonable amount of hydrogen at atmospheric pressure, much less have it in a car. Compressing it costs energy, and gets you into hydrogen embrittlement and other issues — there is no such thing as a “barrier” to hydrogen; there are only filters of greater or lesser fineness.

This is kewl, and a genuine scientific breakthrough, but don’t count your chickens, hmm?

Regards,
Ric

warlocketx on August 1, 2008 at 6:45 PM

/sarc tag added

mred on August 1, 2008 at 6:45 PM

Let’s hope this is a real breakthrough that can effectively be used.

doubleplusundead on August 1, 2008 at 6:47 PM

They haven’t filed a patent application for it.

Which makes me suspicious.

But Nocera and another guy have a related application

Process for photocatalysis and two-electron mixed-valence complexes

misterpeasea on August 1, 2008 at 6:48 PM

Let’s hope this is a real breakthrough that can effectively be used.

doubleplusundead on August 1, 2008 at 6:47 PM

My guess is that this will be a key to our eventually moving over to a hydrogen economy, less a solution in and by itself.

warlocketx on August 1, 2008 at 6:45 PM

There are other ways to transport hydrogen energy besides just uncompressed gas.

apollyonbob on August 1, 2008 at 6:49 PM

The timing (already mentioned) is too coincidental. The left will seize upon this as an excuse to stop the push for drilling.

I don’t buy it.

darwin on August 1, 2008 at 6:50 PM

Nocera hopes that within 10 years, homeowners will be able to power their homes in daylight through photovoltaic cells, while using excess solar energy to produce hydrogen and oxygen to power their own household fuel cell.

10 years??!!??!! Well, why should we invest in this? It will take 10 years!

Ed, you are obviously a shill for Big Sun, and I hope you know that we won’t be fooled by your shillery!

VolMagic on August 1, 2008 at 6:53 PM

Oh give it up already. It will take 10 years to do this.

mred on August 1, 2008 at 6:42 PM

Exactly what we should tell them. It’s the same thing they say about drilling. “What? no oil next week if we drill? What’s the sense then”.

darwin on August 1, 2008 at 6:54 PM

Calling Les in NC

jdpaz on August 1, 2008 at 6:38 PM

With all due respect, it’s not solar.

Les in NC on August 1, 2008 at 6:54 PM

Too good to be true…………but it sounds cool.

omnipotent on August 1, 2008 at 6:54 PM

Won’t the byproduct of the fuel cell be water vapor—an much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2? I guess you could precipitate the water vapor and reuse it, though.

jdpaz on August 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM

Global warming polluter.

Johan Klaus on August 1, 2008 at 7:02 PM

10 years??!!??!! Well, why should we invest in this? It will take 10 years!

Ed, you are obviously a shill for Big Sun, and I hope you know that we won’t be fooled by your shillery!

VolMagic on August 1, 2008 at 6:53 PM

Heh. Big Sun.

I wonder if Big Utility will move to shut down Big Sun.

Oh, and Big Oil isn’t Big Oil anymore. It’s Giant Oil:

Oil giants Chevron Corp. and Total SA wrapped up a string of gargantuan, record-breaking earnings reports Friday

Oil giants. Gargantuan earnings. These people are about as subtle in pushing their agenda as a friggin’ sledgehammer.

misterpeasea on August 1, 2008 at 7:02 PM

Les, airplanes don’t fly around with oil drilling apparatus, either. Generate the hydrogen on the ground…fill the tank.

jdpaz on August 1, 2008 at 7:02 PM

I am selling water vapor offsets.

Johan Klaus on August 1, 2008 at 7:03 PM

Les, airplanes don’t fly around with oil drilling apparatus, either. Generate the hydrogen on the ground…fill the tank.

jdpaz on August 1, 2008 at 7:02 PM

But will commrecial airpanes be able to use the fuel cells.

Johan Klaus on August 1, 2008 at 7:07 PM

Isn’t this technology already in development?

http://www.hydrality.com/index.htm

Or am I missing something?

apollyonbob on August 1, 2008 at 7:08 PM

“Generate the hydrogen on the ground…fill the tank?”

Seem to recall a small event at Lakehurst Naval Air Station a while back…something about hydrogen, and a large air craft…it got lots of press coverage, too. Some sort of German thingie…big big kaboom and lots and lots of flames.

coldwarrior on August 1, 2008 at 7:10 PM

I am selling water vapor offsets.

Johan Klaus on August 1, 2008 at 7:03 PM

I volunteer to be giant hydrogen.

Johan Klaus on August 1, 2008 at 7:13 PM

Seem to recall a small event at Lakehurst Naval Air Station a while back…something about hydrogen, and a large air craft…it got lots of press coverage, too. Some sort of German thingie…big big kaboom and lots and lots of flames.

coldwarrior on August 1, 2008 at 7:10 PM

But of course, that could never happen again.

Johan Klaus on August 1, 2008 at 7:15 PM

Solar cells aren’t very efficient even in direct sunlight, typically only about 12-14%.

And any scientist who describes his work as “…the nirvana of what we’ve been talking about for years” sounds more like a salesman than a scientist. Discoveries that produce results don’t need hyperbole like this.

Socratease on August 1, 2008 at 7:16 PM

Yeah, guess you’re right, Johan.

Better tell it to the Challenger crew.

coldwarrior on August 1, 2008 at 7:17 PM

That’s Nice.

DRILL!

marklmail on August 1, 2008 at 7:19 PM

coldwarrior on August 1, 2008 at 7:10 PM et al

I’m not saying it’d be a good idea. I’m just saying…

jdpaz on August 1, 2008 at 7:19 PM

http://www.water4gas.com

davidk on August 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM

From the article:

The key component in Nocera and Kanan’s new process is a new catalyst that produces oxygen gas from water; another catalyst produces valuable hydrogen gas. The new catalyst consists of cobalt metal, phosphate and an electrode, placed in water. When electricity — whether from a photovoltaic cell, a wind turbine or any other source — runs through the electrode, the cobalt and phosphate form a thin film on the electrode, and oxygen gas is produced.

It’s not using solar energy to convert water into hydrogen and oxygen, it’s using electricity from any source, including solar.

It may be more efficient than other electroysis methods, but solar cells are notoriously expensive and inefficient. Furthermore, converting electricity into hydrogen and oxygen gases, then back into electricity via fuel cell results in a net loss of electrical power.

A more efficient method of producing hydrogen is a significant breakthrough, but in terms of solar power it still encounters the same problems of efficiency and storage.

TL;DR: All it does is take electricity, convert it into H2 and O2, then back into electricity, resulting in significantly less electricity than what you started with.

Hollowpoint on August 1, 2008 at 7:24 PM

I hope my advocatus diabolis approach isn’t taken for some sort of hey, I got all the answers on my part…

Have been away from the CQ/HA bunch for quite a while, just been back for a couple days now, if that. Used to use this method when I taught school…it worked…worked well.

Lot’s of really good ideas here on this thread and on a couple others deaklling with alternative energy and energy in general and applications of technologies this past day or so…hope someone is getting this all down so it can be utilized by folks, unlike me, who actually know what they are doing.

Just thought I’d stick that into the mix…was getting a few vibes and all that.

OK…klatch and kvetch among yourselves…everything is good. :-)

coldwarrior on August 1, 2008 at 7:29 PM

I bet ya 1 year from now this will be forgotten.

TheSitRep on August 1, 2008 at 7:30 PM

If we could power our homes and cars on hogwash, “weez n bidness.”

saved on August 1, 2008 at 7:32 PM

http://www.water4gas.com

davidk on August 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM

Scam.

Hollowpoint on August 1, 2008 at 7:32 PM

It’s a laboratory experiment. Emphasis on the big if. Production processes are an entirely different matter.

It’s not like research of this sort has not been going on, basically since the first solar cell flew in space …

tarpon on August 1, 2008 at 7:34 PM

davidk on August 1, 2008 at 7:21 PM

Hollowpoint on August 1, 2008 at 7:32 PM

Well, Ozzie was telling the truth about one thing…”There are many fakes appearing throughout the internet.”

coldwarrior on August 1, 2008 at 7:35 PM

The “byproduct” as everyone is calling it, is fresh water. This byproduct could be as important as the main product. The process works in fresh water or salt water. It could be a big step forward in the desalination of seawater.

Buford Gooch on August 1, 2008 at 7:39 PM

Hmmm… no word on how energy efficient this is.

ie, how much is lost going from sunlight, to Hydrogen, to burn in the cell to make power….

Romeo13 on August 1, 2008 at 6:38 PM

That’s the rub, but to be fair- solar energy is essentially free, discounting cost of the equipment to utilize it. Efficiency plays less of a role when the energy source is freely available.

Unfortunately you need a large area covered with a lot of expensive solar cells and abundant sunlight to produce a significant amount of electrical energy- some of which is lost in producing H2 and O2, with some chemical energy lost turning it back into electrical energy.

It might still be more efficient than other methods of storing energy though; the article didn’t address that. If (and that’s a big “if) there were a reasonably practical way of using solar energy to produce electricity, storing some of it as chemical energy to be used for electrical generation may be quite useful when the sun goes down.

Hollowpoint on August 1, 2008 at 7:45 PM

Oil giants. Gargantuan earnings. These people are about as subtle in pushing their agenda as a friggin’ sledgehammer.

misterpeasea on August 1, 2008 at 7:02 PM

They almost strike me as size-ists. I mean, what do they have against large things? Are they simply “othering” things larger than themselves so they can discriminate? I think so.

I dream of a day when my children will not be frightened by the size of objects, federations, conglomerates, or corporations…

VolMagic on August 1, 2008 at 7:46 PM

Efficiency plays less of a role when the energy source is freely available.

Gravity is free. I saw it on Mythbusters. Efficiency is very important, even with a free, abundant source.

VolMagic on August 1, 2008 at 7:47 PM

It’s not using solar energy to convert water into hydrogen and oxygen, it’s using electricity from any source, including solar.

It may be more efficient than other electroysis methods, but solar cells are notoriously expensive and inefficient. Furthermore, converting electricity into hydrogen and oxygen gases, then back into electricity via fuel cell results in a net loss of electrical power.

A more efficient method of producing hydrogen is a significant breakthrough, but in terms of solar power it still encounters the same problems of efficiency and storage.

TL;DR: All it does is take electricity, convert it into H2 and O2, then back into electricity, resulting in significantly less electricity than what you started with.

Hollowpoint on August 1, 2008 at 7:24 PM

The Bottom Line is this technology will require more electricity use to generate the hydrogen and oxygen. That means many, many times the surface area of solar cells in use today. (Or lots more wind turbines or wood burning plants, or nukes, or whatever…) Every surface of your buildings will need solar cells on them to generate the required electrical current to conduct the electrolysis. There will be raw materials costs associated with the catalysts, cost associated with procurement and installation of the solar cells, storage costs associated with the hydrogen and oxygen tanks (compressors, piping, alarms, safety equipment, etc..) and the output of the electrolysis system will require lots of tweaking and a significant size to be effective, especially if you are recharging your fuel cell powered automobile every two or three days from use. If you don’t have enough sunlight that week to generate enough H2 and O2, then do you stop driving that week or just go to the H2 station down the road?

Electrolysis requires very clean deionized water, where you add/mix in the catalyst, and then the electrodes get used up during your process. They can be replaced, but if you think solar cells are expensive right now, try finding the market for cobalt and whatever material they make the electrodes from. You are competing with the rest of US industry who is already complaining about the high cost of platinum, steel, concrete, copper, iron, and aluminum. There is still only so much of this stuff to go around and you want to add to demand? Cheaper to drill now!

In short, the size of these systems will have to be pretty durn large to run your house AND your vehicle, and they will be pretty inefficient because, as already pointed out, it takes more energy to split the water molecules than to combine them and run the car. The bang per pound of fuel is going to be greater from gasoline and diesel right now, than from any solar cell-electrolysis-fuel cell system, and it will be a lot simpler and cheaper to use and maintain.

Submarines use electrolysis to make oxygen (while dumping the hydrogen overboard…it is explosive you know?), and the generators are the most temperamental of machines onboard. What do you do when the system goes down? Wait for a plumber with a gold plated pipe wrench?

Using this low efficiency system will dramatically increase the amount of energy needed to make the same appliances and systems run currently, and will greatly add to the electrical power needed from the grid in downtime situations. A net loser of energy, I think.

You want energy efficiency? Use fluorescent lamps, low flow toilets and faucets, keep your thermostats set higher in summer and lower in winter. And then drill for oil and gas, build lots of nukes to provide the extra electricity needed….REALLY cheap, and burn coal to make electricity, also REALLY cheap. Build wind turbines and expect noe of these things will add to the energy pool for many years. Plan for the future NOW if you don’t want to live in the dark burning manure to heat your house.

Quit expecting technology to come up with miracles which are against the basic laws of physics, folks. Mother Nature sucks, and gravity ALWAYS wins.

Subsunk out.

Subsunk on August 1, 2008 at 7:53 PM

Gravity is free. I saw it on Mythbusters. Efficiency is very important, even with a free, abundant source.

VolMagic on August 1, 2008 at 7:47 PM

Gravity is a poor comparison- you could generate electricity using the energy of a falling weight, but once it hits the ground, it takes just as much (actually more) energy to lift it back up to it’s original height.

10% of something that’s free is still something that’s free. The current problem is scale and infrastructure costs- it’s neither cheap nor easy to provide and maintain the facilities needed for large scale solar electricity production.

Solar derived energy produces zero electricity at night; some form of energy storage would be needed to provide juice 24 hours a day. The unaddressed question is whether this method is more efficent than others, such as batteries (also less than 100% efficient, expensive, limited lifespan).

Automobile engines are only about 20%-25% efficient, but we don’t use that as an excuse not to use them, even with the cost of gas.

Hollowpoint on August 1, 2008 at 8:01 PM

Subsunk on August 1, 2008 at 7:53 PM

I’m not touting this as The Answer To All Our Problems, only pointing out that if (and again, a very big if) solar energy were to be a viable single energy source, SOME form of energy storage would be required.

If this method of storing electrical energy as chemical energy in the form of H2 and O2 is more efficient than using batteries (you’re familiar with the limitations of those), it’s a significant step forward. In terms of solar energy, there would have to be additional and very significant advances to make it practical enough to utilize this method- assuming it’s practical in the first place.

Hollowpoint on August 1, 2008 at 8:10 PM

Quit expecting technology to come up with miracles which are against the basic laws of physics, folks. Mother Nature sucks, and gravity ALWAYS wins.

Yeah! Quit it with the crazy dreams of flying and landing on the moon and making computers smaller than a VW Bus!

Oh … wait a tick.

TheUnrepentantGeek on August 1, 2008 at 8:19 PM

I question the timing.

Dusty on August 1, 2008 at 8:19 PM

Solar power is a promising technology, with cost-effective solar power likely to emerge in 3-5 years. Wind turbines are a dead-ended technology and a money pit that shows no indication of ever becoming cost-effective. While wind is most nearly adequate for power in the TX to ND corridor that Pickens targets, in the remainder of the country, wind farms are a fleecing of taxpayers and consumers. More economically feasible that the subsidies go to clean coal, nuclear and shale.

petefrt on August 1, 2008 at 8:52 PM

If this does pan out, expect a road-block at every turn, as this holds little promise of enriching ManBearPig, or stifling the American economy and “leveling the playing field” for all of the third-world countries.

Sorry, just not socialist enough to pass muster.

hillbillyjim on August 1, 2008 at 9:00 PM

Won’t the byproduct of the fuel cell be water vapor—an much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2? I guess you could precipitate the water vapor and reuse it, though.

More potent?

Look, CO2 is a tiny fraction of the greenhouse gas in the atmosphere; 95% of greenhouse gas is water vapor. If, throughout the entire industrial revolution, the industry of the entire planet has only managed to increase global CO2 by about 40%, how long do you suppose it would take us to double atmospheric water vapor?

Short version — most likely not a problem because the volume of water vapor in the atmosphere is so damned huge.

Unless, of course, you were just snarking, in which case I’ve been had. Oh, well…

philwynk on August 1, 2008 at 9:12 PM

coldwarrior,
The problem with the Hindenburg wasn’t the hydrogen, it was the extremely flammable aluminum paint they used on the dirigible.

exhelodrvr on August 1, 2008 at 9:18 PM

But with this using up all the sun’s energy, won’t it cause another Ice Age?

exhelodrvr on August 1, 2008 at 9:20 PM

Eh, I’m still cutting wood for this winter. No worries, I’m sending all the carbon to His Goracleness.

GarandFan on August 1, 2008 at 9:38 PM

So all the Dems have to do to stop this is figure out a way to block out the sun…

fossten on August 1, 2008 at 9:42 PM

The Democrats, when it is installed at your home will figure how to put a tax meter on it, or make it so expensive you have to rent it from a company and charge a special tax that way.

StuLongIsland on August 1, 2008 at 9:45 PM

Stu,
They already have that, watch your property taxes go up as you invest $50K++ in a solar power system…

Rodent on August 1, 2008 at 9:52 PM

If science could find a way to make energy out of nothing the Democrats would still be against it. They don’t care about the planet or the environment or anything else, all of that is just their excuse to continue strangling America. The only thing they really care about is more and more political power.

If you think the Democrats will stop whining if the perfect solution is found, your wrong.

Maxx on August 1, 2008 at 9:56 PM

Might be real. The Europeans and guys at Penn State are working on ways of yielding more Hydrogen.

Using catalyst:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV2JGMIT2WU

Using bacteria:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1E8TUrrAAo

Agrippa2k on August 1, 2008 at 9:57 PM

Here’s something for you tech-heads… While working as a PM at Picatinny Arsenal, I was involved with a DARPA funded SBIR program that created a nuclear battery. This technology works by essentially harnessing rays from decaying nuclear material and converting them into electricity, not unlike how solar rays are the collected by the sun. This technology is old however my question to this MIT group would be, due to the fact that the sun and nuclear material give off similar radiation, can nuclear waste be used (in a controlled environment) to provide a continuous source of solar-like energy to be used to injunction with this potential solar technology break-through? If so, this would provide a use for nuclear waste material and allow those geographic areas with insufficient solar activity to leverage this technology as well. Just a thought.

Ack just saying…

Claypigeon on August 1, 2008 at 10:05 PM

There are other ways to transport hydrogen energy besides just uncompressed gas.

apollyonbob on August 1, 2008 at 6:49 PM

Such as gasoline, diesel, kerosene, … :)

dominigan on August 1, 2008 at 10:23 PM

Claypigeon on August 1, 2008 at 10:05 PM

What you’re refering to are RTGs… which are commonly used to power spacecraft probes for years. They don’t last forever though because they work off of radioactive decay.

dominigan on August 1, 2008 at 10:27 PM

Efficiency is important — 10% efficiency needs 10 times less equipment and space than 1% efficiency.

I don’t know much about solar, or nuclear, for that matter, but a few days ago I looked at Nevada Solar One (NSO) to compare it with a nuke plant, Ginna Nuclear Plant (GNP), in our area. NSO’s generating capacity is 75MW max (64MW nom) and it takes up 300 acres with its array. GNP generates 610MW and takes up about 20 acres.

NSO cost $266M to build (I don’t know if intagibles are included) according to it’s Wiki. That’s $3,550/kW for construction.

This report (large pdf) discusses nuke plant capital costs. (Report looks to be 2003 vintage.) Sounds like a good number is $2000/kW for construction; it drops to $1,000 to $1,500/kW for two or more on the same site.

Another aspect is O&M. I haven’t heard of anything on the possible O&M costs for solar and can’t find estimates. That’s in the nuke report, too, but I’ve only glossed over that so far.

Efficiency is really important when it comes to solar for initial costs both for land, and equipment. It is really important when it comes to the M part of O&M. Fuel may be minimal to free. Nuke fuel is about $0.0044/kW while Total O&M is about $0.0128/kW.

Cost per kWh Estimates: Solar -$0.13+/-; Nuke-$0.067+/-

Efficiency is important for a lot of reasons, plant footprint being a real big one. Fuel is only a small input to overall cost. If NSO’s panels were twice as efficient as they are, it would only have need 150 acres instead of 300 acres and would only have need 380 panels instead of 760. I’m not sure it would have cut all the costs I noted in half, but it would easily make it competitive. If MIT’s breakthrough is twice as efficient as the NSO tech, then that is good, so long as the tech requirements aren’t also twice as expensive.

FWIW.

Dusty on August 1, 2008 at 10:27 PM

If this does pan out, expect a road-block at every turn, as this holds little promise of enriching ManBearPig, or stifling the American economy and “leveling the playing field” for all of the third-world countries.

Sorry, just not socialist enough to pass muster.

hillbillyjim on August 1, 2008 at 9:00 PM

Precisely. I’m all for finding new ways to make and store energy and this discovery sounds like a good thing. But the political reality today is that there are NO solutions to the energy problem except those that put money and power into Democratic hands.

The problem we face is not for want of resources or technology but from a massive deception fueled by the Democrats and environmentalists that we are killing the planet. The people are asleep, they’ve been put in a voodoo trance. They believe the fairy tales of global warming and sparse resources. Until the people wake up and realize none of this is true we will never get our house in order.

Maxx on August 1, 2008 at 10:38 PM

The numbers for NSO are worse than that.
The 64MW is for full sunlight. Take the yearly output from Wiki, 134M KWH/yr, divide by 8760 hours per year (yes, I know that’s wrong, 24×365, but it’s close) and you only get about 15MW continuous output. A Nuke plant runs 95% of the time, so you really do get close to the rated output over the life of the plant from it.

The above is true for all solar. Right now a retail PV panel runs $4/watt (or more). But you have to divide by 3 or 4 to compare that to a watt from any full time source. And add in mounts, wiring, inverters, hail damage, tornado damage, kids-with-slingshots, etc…

Rodent on August 1, 2008 at 11:22 PM

It’s not using solar energy to convert water into hydrogen and oxygen, it’s using electricity from any source, including solar.

Hollowpoint on August 1, 2008 at 7:24 PM

Exactly. I can’t figure out why solar has anything in particular to do with this. It is very odd.

progressoverpeace on August 1, 2008 at 11:45 PM

[Rodent on August 1, 2008 at 11:22 PM]

I’m not good the ins and outs of solar, nuke, or M/E engineering jargon when it comes to power generation, so I confine my evaluation to the thumbnail sketches and ballpark estimates of the big picture. Your detail helps fill out the picture for me. Thank you.

I’m curious. The Ginna plant page noted capacity as 610 MW. Should I take that to mean nominal capacity or max, or because it runs 95% 24/7, there is no difference?

Dusty on August 2, 2008 at 12:07 AM

I think this is a phony.

Normal electrolysis of water is nearly 100% electrically efficient. Normal electrolysis uses dilute sulfuric as the electrolyte (makes water conductive). What coats the anode shouldn’t make a difference you still need an electrolyte. You can’t push efficiency beyond 100%. Just as you can’t have a perpetual motion machine.

The article implies no electrolyte is needed. Pure water is a very poor conductor. There is no way to separate water into H and O electrically unless the electrons can migrate from the cathode to the anode.

Water can be thermally “cracked” by heat energy, but it still takes the same amount of energy as electrolysis, only in heat form. There are proposal to do that with a nuclear reactor. It would save the capital cost of steam generators, turbines and electrical generators. There would be a efficiency gain since turbines and generators operate at about 50% and 95% thermal efficiency respectively.

This is just high school chemistry and physics.

Corky Boyd on August 2, 2008 at 1:39 AM

warlocketx on August 1, 2008 at 6:45 PM

You’re a bit behind on this one.

All it does is take electricity, convert it into H2 and O2, then back into electricity, resulting in significantly less electricity than what you started with.

Hollowpoint on August 1, 2008 at 7:24 PM

I think you missed the point. Solar doesn’t store well because batteries are big, heavy and expensive to produce. However, it’s relatively cheap to store hydrogen and oxygen. Then, using a fuel cell, you can convert back to electricity at a later time. There is a loss, but the ability to store the solar is a great benefit.

John on August 2, 2008 at 2:20 AM

We can power our oil rigs with this.

Chuck Schick on August 2, 2008 at 4:22 AM

“…The article implies no electrolyte is needed. Pure water is a very poor conductor. There is no way to separate water into H and O electrically unless the electrons can migrate from the cathode to the anode.
Corky Boyd on August 2, 2008 at 1:39 AM

“…The key component in Nocera and Kanan’s new process is a new catalyst that produces oxygen gas from water; another catalyst produces valuable hydrogen gas. The new catalyst consists of cobalt metal, phosphate and an electrode, placed in water. When electricity — whether from a photovoltaic cell, a wind turbine or any other source — runs through the electrode, the cobalt and phosphate form a thin film on the electrode, and oxygen gas is produced.
Combined with another catalyst, such as platinum, that can produce hydrogen gas from water, the system can duplicate the water splitting reaction that occurs during photosynthesis.
The new catalyst [acts as electrolyte] works at room temperature, in neutral pH water, and it’s easy to set up, Nocera said. “That’s why I know this is going to work. It’s so easy to implement,” he said.

J_Gocht on August 2, 2008 at 8:21 AM

coldwarrior,
The problem with the Hindenburg wasn’t the hydrogen, it was the extremely flammable aluminum paint they used on the dirigible.

exhelodrvr on August 1, 2008 at 9:18 PM

If Germany had access to large supplies of helium, something the US had a lock on, that aluminum paint sparking the fire would have had a far less lethal result.

Gasoline is explosive. So is hydrogen. The Hiighway Safety Administration has not had a depth of research completeed on the effects of accidents, sparking, on hydrogen-powered vehicles. They could be safe. They could be traveling time bombs. That’s one of the problems in the initial stages of the application of “new” technologies, there simply isn’t the hard learned and observed data avaialbe to be able to say conclusively that there is no danger at all to people…or to the environment.

this is where setting compulsory timelines for the entire nation to change over and accept somethig like 85% alternative fuels within 20 years makes it difficult to actaully have the ability to design, build, test, evaluate, and render hard decisions based on solid analysis of whatever alternative is foisted upon us. Between Henry Ford’s first motor-buggy in Dearborn and today’s vehicle standards, there were a lot of accidents, a lot of deaths and injuries, all along the way. That was a century of trial and error. Trying to compress such into an arbitrary 20 year period is asking for a compression[major spike] in lethality or potential lethality as well.

coldwarrior on August 2, 2008 at 8:50 AM

Nocera is a shameless self-promoter and climate catastrophe believer, but there are no fundamental issues I can see with this. The issue will be adapting it for applications.

Big S on August 2, 2008 at 10:05 AM

Steam engines are the answer! 100% fuel consumption and we get green house gasses too!

serenity on August 2, 2008 at 10:19 AM

Anything to make my gas cheaper.

TexasDan on August 2, 2008 at 10:34 AM

[Chuck Schick on August 2, 2008 at 4:22 AM]

LOL.

Dusty on August 2, 2008 at 10:44 AM

[coldwarrior on August 2, 2008 at 8:50 AM]

Agreed. And I would think hydrogen would be more even more dangerous. Gasoline doesn’t explode so much it’s vapor burns as the liquid gas evaporates, even in large spills. Hydrogen’s natural state, however, is a gas and much more likely to create large conflagrations than gas when mixed quickly with air.

I’d love to see a vid of a gas grill propane tank when it is punctured inside the trunk of a car. That might approach mimicing what would happen with a hydrogen tank.

I good example of the hard learned problems of applying new technology was the invention of the iron bridge. It was revolutionary in solving the limitations of the age-old tech at the time. Growth in it’s application was quick and it was only decades later when the failure rate was approaching 25% that fatigue cracking was found to be a little bit of a problem.

Dusty on August 2, 2008 at 11:10 AM

Why in the Hell are you constantly linking Science Daily articles here?

Those guys are retards. Just tacking the word “Science” onto the title of a tabloid rag doesn’t magically change it into a respectable journal.

logis on August 2, 2008 at 11:48 AM

Industrialized nations will just end up using more than their fair share of sunlight.

Akzed on August 2, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Oh, Ooo…

“Nocera is a shameless self-promoter and climate catastrophe believer, but there are no fundamental issues I can see with this. The issue will be adapting it for applications.
Big S on August 2, 2008 at 10:05 AM

Then this…

Those guys are retards. Just tacking the word “Science” onto the title of a tabloid rag doesn’t magically change it into a respectable journal.
logis on August 2, 2008 at 11:48 AM

Well folks, here it is from the horse’s mouth.

“Major discovery’ from MIT primed to unleash solar revolution
Scientists mimic essence of plants’ energy storage system…

Would you people still complain… if you were “hung with a new rope” or just “really hung”?

Begeebus! Oh my I should say!

J_Gocht on August 2, 2008 at 2:56 PM

Industrialized nations will just end up using more than their fair share of sunlight.
Akzed on August 2, 2008 at 1:12 PM

No doubt, this will result in Global Darkening; all the world’s Politically Correct scientists will agree to reach the same completely scientific concensus: that Global Darkining will cause all life on earth to end in precisely 20 to 200 years.

Then, some liberal genius will eventually figure out that China and North Korea receive about 1/5th as much sunlight per capita as does the United States of America.

Of course this problem will necessitate an amendment to the Kyoto Accord. In addition to the trillions of dollars America must pay to Communist countries to cure Global Warming, America will also have to cede a billion acres of land to cure Global Darkening.

Isn’t it funny how liberal science can discover an infinite array of problems, but there’s always only ONE solution?

logis on August 2, 2008 at 3:03 PM

[logis on August 2, 2008 at 3:03 PM]

I’m worried that this new technology will be militarized and the next thing you know the world will held hostage to ICEBM’s and suitcase electrolysis bombs. You know what kind of catastrophe it would be if one of those things went off and turned all the water in a 50 mile radius into H2 and O2?

Dusty on August 2, 2008 at 4:00 PM

Akzed on August 2, 2008 at 1:12 PM

logis on August 2, 2008 at 3:03 PM

Dusty on August 2, 2008 at 4:00 PM

Hey now, I finally got it figured…you folks are all Florida Gator, graduates, with majors in Phys Ed. :)

Did any of you play football on a scholarship,too… huh Big S…? ;)

J_Gocht on August 2, 2008 at 4:42 PM

I’m worried that this new technology will be militarized and the next thing you know the world will held hostage to ICEBM’s and suitcase electrolysis bombs. You know what kind of catastrophe it would be if one of those things went off and turned all the water in a 50 mile radius into H2 and O2?
Dusty on August 2, 2008 at 4:00 PM

Nonsense. Iran is only trying to develop nuclear electrolyzation technology because they’re afraid they won’t have enough oil to supply their own needs – and because environmental protection ranks nearly as high on their list of national priorities as does the issue of women’s rights.

logis on August 2, 2008 at 5:51 PM

[Dusty on August 2, 2008 at 12:07 AM]

Ya got me there, Dusty.
Wiki says 610MW, the Ginna website says 490MW. Running the wiki numbers for actual production says 562MW avg over 2007.
Something’s a bit fishy. My wild guess would be that 610MW was nameplate output when it was new, it was good for 490 in ‘04 when Constellation Energy bought it, and the 562MW from the wiki average is just bogus, or it’s had some work done between ‘04 and the wiki entry. (Or I slipped a cog in my arithmetic…)

Rodent on August 2, 2008 at 6:32 PM

Even a highly efficient solar cell is not a serious energy solution. Solar just has too low of a power density and high of a cost to ever compete with coal, nat. gas, and etc, except in rural areas that have the low pop. density and large surface areas available.

TallDave on August 2, 2008 at 6:37 PM

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