Too bad to check: New York cop knocks bicyclist over for no apparent reason
posted at 8:51 pm on July 28, 2008 by Allahpundit
Three weeks on the force and already stripped of his badge and gun. Even worse than the crime, the apparent cover-up:
What the video doesn’t show is Pogan arresting Long for attempted assault in the third degree, resisting arrest and disorderly conduct – charges that kept the Bloomfield, N.J. man behind bars for 26 hours before his release late Saturday…
In court papers, Pogan accused Long of purposely swerving his bicycle to block traffic and then using it as a weapon to run down the officer, knocking him off his feet and causing a “laceration” on his forearm.
Watch the clip to see who ran down whom; linebackers get paid good money to make open-field tackles as crunching as this. The only semi-exculpatory explanation I can think of would be if there was a run-in earlier with the same bicyclist such that the cops had reason to believe he was dangerous and needed to apprehend him by any means necessary. I’m skeptical, but we’ll see. Exit quotation: “If it wasn’t caught on video people would not have believed it.”
Blowback
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rockemronnie:
My wife has a PhD in Social Psychology, and is not quasi-anything. I’ve learned a lot from her, and I think I am using my terms pretty accurately. When I show her posts from this site, she says you guys are “f@@king crazy.” I think she is joking by using that word choice, but she usually agrees with my assessments of the people here. This site provides us with endless discussions. I love it.
So where would we be going on our date? I know you’re 190 lbs. How tall?
dave742 on July 29, 2008 at 4:05 PM
rockem:
Maybe you should do a little reading on anarchy.
dave742 on July 29, 2008 at 4:06 PM
“Got an iPod? Fork it over.”
It would be interesting to see dave’s playlists.
Dusty Bolshevik hymns. Maoist chants. Che Guevera ballads. Red Guard cheers. Anarchist love songs.
Probably some dirty hippie music in there as well. Did Jefferson Airplane sell out to iTunes yet?
NoDonkey on July 29, 2008 at 4:07 PM
rockemronnie:
Since we are almost dating, can I call you Rocky?
dave742 on July 29, 2008 at 4:08 PM
I’m sorry but as someone who’s been hit by cars on a bicycle I don’t see Critical Massholes as doing anything positive. They anger drivers and other cyclists bear the brunt of that ire.
But if a cyclist tries to draw attention to this problem and commits the unpardonable sin of lengthening someone’s commute, then they are subject to whatever additional violence comes their way.
It’s so environmentally sensitive of the Critical Massholes to force people to idle their cars, burning fossil fuel, stuck in traffic behind a mass of cyclist pedaling to nowhere.
What if society actually addressed the problem of dead bicyclists? Nah, let’s just beat the crap out of them.
Lobbying for bike lanes will do more for bike safety than a thousand Critical Massholes parading around in circles.
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 4:09 PM
NoDonkey:
Lou Reed and Al DiMeola.
Hey, Rocky. I’m going to see Al DiMeola with Return to Forever in Boston next week. If you want to come, I’ll ditch my wife.
dave742 on July 29, 2008 at 4:10 PM
She couldn’t handle the math, eh?
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 4:14 PM
dave,
It’s all good. My current playlists are Vivaldi and Hank Williams III, go figure.
NoDonkey on July 29, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Rocky:
I don’t know what you mean. She’s a statistics wizard. Do you have any idea what a research psychologist does?
dave742 on July 29, 2008 at 4:16 PM
NoDonkey:
I see Vivaldi is some violin dude? Never heard of him. DiMeola has played with Jean-luc Ponty. Heard of him?
dave742 on July 29, 2008 at 4:19 PM
is this cop fired yet? trying to find an update…
sirmyth on July 29, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Nah, if she’s hot and doesn’t talk politics, you go to the concert and I’ll hang with her. But be wary, once she’s gone Jew, she’s thru boffing you.
Besides, I don’t give butthole $cientologists like Chick Corea money. Corea can write lovely melodies, and he did some fine work in Miles’ Bitches Brew band, but nobody in $cientology gets my money.
DiMeola’s okay but plays too many notes. McLaughlin is more to my tastes, particularly when playing acoustic. His version of Goodbye Porkpie Hat is sublime.
I saw RTF years ago and was a big Stanley Clarke fan. They played at Hill Auditorium and were way overamplified for that hall.
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 4:23 PM
Apparently they like harassing drivers and blocking traffic.
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 4:25 PM
Sorry, bad assumption on my part, but you’ve been on here too long for me to think otherwise. I realize that many people post from work. I do it myself when I’ve got the time.
I just assumed high paying jobs would give less online posting time.
Silly me.
Well, if that’s the case, then the cop should write himself a ticket for jaywalking.
Esthier on July 29, 2008 at 4:26 PM
“I see Vivaldi is some violin dude? Never heard of him.”
Baroque composer. Very good. His music makes everything written currently look very small and inconsequential.
But I do like the violin. Much better instrument than the guitar. I like Hank III because he has an incredible fiddler.
I don’t know much about jazz guitarists. I like to go to see jazz musicians when I visit New Orleans, but they usually don’t have guitar players. Must be interesting.
NoDonkey on July 29, 2008 at 4:30 PM
Rocky:
They also know a lot about multivariate statistics.
I saw McLaughlin play with Zakir Hussain from Remember Shakti. Hussain was amazing (despite the suspicious name). I saw Stanly Clarke once in a small bar that was part of a golf course. The ceiling was peeling off into my drink during the show. Weird. Talent isn’t appreciated in this country. DiMeola spends nearly all his time abroad.
I think we are hitting it off quite well!
dave742 on July 29, 2008 at 4:34 PM
The cyclist should have shown some respect and slowed down for the cop. Not just because he’s a cop, but because he was a pedestrian.
Anyone else would have taken similar defensive action with a bike about to crash into you. Push it away.
It’s awful that he lost his badge over this. Disgusting.
uptight on July 29, 2008 at 4:36 PM
So true. I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s noticed that most of the anarchists are just a bunch of spindly over-aged kids who, if they survived at all, would be on the bottom rung of the totem pole in a real anarchistic world.
FloatingRock on July 29, 2008 at 4:38 PM
More elitist, anti-American, oh to be in [France, India, Nepal, or whatever the flavor of the day is] where true talent is appreciated, not ignored like American rubes who can’t appreciate real art, comments.
The last time I saw Stanley Clarke play it was in a 20,000 seat arena. So much for underappreciated artists.
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 4:39 PM
Or maybe she was just good at giving head to her thesis adviser.
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 4:40 PM
That’s not necessary.
Give me a break. The cop was LUNGING at the bike. It was never going to run into him.
And as for slowing down, why bother when you’ve got plenty of room to ride past him?
Honestly, watch the video. The cop literally has to make a great effort to get to the bike in time in order to knock the guy over.
Esthier on July 29, 2008 at 4:46 PM
No, you’re certainly not the only one, which is why I made that comment about dave being a part of the system. I have a hard time respecting people who are aiming for the world to be one way when they don’t even have the balls to live that way themselves.
Esthier on July 29, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Why is this tolerated on this board? If I wanted to read disgusting drivel like this I would read KOS.
sirmyth on July 29, 2008 at 4:56 PM
Sure, Rocky. Who did he play with? Was it his band? Was the venue full? When I saw Rite of Strings, which was not only Clarke, but also DiMeola and Luc POnty, it was at an outdoor theater. The kind where there are about 3,000 seats and a lawn behind. They filled about a third of the seats, with nobody on the lawn. You’re full of crap, Rocky.
Her advisor was a woman. If she got through using sex, I am mad at her for not letting me watch.
It sounds like you are just getting jealous because you want to be with me. Don’t be that way.
dave742 on July 29, 2008 at 4:56 PM
I wouldn’t know, I didn’t have the same thesis adviser. Perhaps you are correct and a hand job would have been sufficient.
BTW, after being called “psychotic” and a “sociopath”, I figure I get a few free swings. If it’s a low blow, so be it.
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 5:00 PM
OK that’s funny.
If you want to stoop, but you’re not proving anything that way.
Esthier on July 29, 2008 at 5:02 PM
Nope. Just voided so not full of anything except perhaps myself. I saw Clarke play with the New Barbarians at Crisler Arena in Ann Arbor. Clarke was good but it was probably the worst concert I’ve ever attended. The band was mostly drunk or stoned and the PA mix was almost inaudible. The arena was mostly sold out.
The time I saw RTF (w/ Clarke and DiMeola) was at a sold out Hill Auditorium, ~4500 seats.
When I saw McLaughlin/Mahavishnu Orch. play, it was also in a sold out basketball arena.
You have no reason to be angry because you have no right to have access to her private life. You think you own her? You think she owes you sexual gratification? Are you saying that you only enjoy watching her have sex with women but that you wouldn’t want to watch her with a guy?
Interesting the way leftoids think that homo jokes are funny when directed at their political opposition.
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Actually, I’m not sure that stooping would get me down to Dave’s level. Kneeling perhaps.
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 5:18 PM
Rocky:
No
No. But I am free to leave if I am unhappy with my relationship.
I have watched her with a guy. It was OK, but not the same as a woman.
I asked you why it was so important that you know my name. You did not respond. I made a logical conclusion that it was because you like me. If I am wrong, tell me the real reason.
dave742 on July 29, 2008 at 5:25 PM
OK, how did we get to this??
AprilOrit on July 29, 2008 at 5:56 PM
A police force that is so Big Govt that they do become the authority to be judge, jury, and executioner sounds like something Barbara Boxer, Pelosi, Bill Clinton, John Edwards and Crew would die for.
I am Republican – not in my name, not for me, thanks, but a stern NO THANKS!!.
AprilOrit on July 29, 2008 at 5:58 PM
The constitutional-ist versus the authoritarians. Just like religion its a can’t miss comment generator.
Sammy316 on July 29, 2008 at 6:01 PM
I don’t know, but now we all know a lot more about dave and his marital life.
For the record though, I’d have to disagree with both rokem and dave. I think a spouse is owed sexual gratification (if possible). As far as I’m concerned, it’s as much a marital duty as remaining faithful to one another (and obviously “faithful” has different meanings to different people).
Esthier on July 29, 2008 at 6:01 PM
I leave and come back and you are posting, you banned yourself, why do you keep posting?…
Typical liberal, makes a deal and then breaks it ten minutes after…you are why liberals are held to such a low standard, they can’t admit when they make a mistake, and they can’t live up to their contracts.
You took the bait, now sit down and read the posts, learn something, but don’t talk…you are not allowed at the adults table.
right2bright on July 29, 2008 at 6:06 PM
The dishonesty of The Left is being played out here before our eyes on this board.
Those in favor of this kind of Police Force – a force with the authority to be judge, jury, and executioner – are all closet Donkeys, but refuse to admit it!!
Can we get a loud hee haw from all the Closet Dems here supporting a large in charge bureaucratic police dept.?
AprilOrit on July 29, 2008 at 6:08 PM
I wouldn’t go that far. I just think we have a lot of people here who’s natural reaction to a story involving police or soldiers is to defend them even when it appears their actions are indefensible. They likely do so because of those who would criticize that same group even when their actions are completely defensible.
Esthier on July 29, 2008 at 6:11 PM
How did we get to this from a over zealeous police officer??
I am not comfortable discussing the sexual gratification part, but if you are married it is for life and you take a vow before God, period.
If you are unfaithful you are wrong and you are out in my book.
No Tammy Wynetting from me.
AprilOrit on July 29, 2008 at 6:12 PM
We have a ton of people here who have no idea what a real Republican is, period.
AprilOrit on July 29, 2008 at 6:14 PM
Amen
Sammy316 on July 29, 2008 at 6:16 PM
Esthier:
Exactly. Best quote of the thread.
Faithful means only having sex whith other people when the spouse is present. Isn’t that universal?
dave742 on July 29, 2008 at 6:19 PM
Sorry. I wasn’t trying to make you uncomfortable. I just think it’s generally undervalued, specifically by people on the Right.
We have a ton of politicians with the same problem.
I don’t think any definitions are universal, but hey, whatever floats your boat. It would sink mine.
Esthier on July 29, 2008 at 6:28 PM
Not in my home or in the homes of any of my family members or friends.
Faithful means remaining loving and monogemous with a partner you have chosen to spend your life with, through sickness and health, rain and shine, better and worse, thick and thin, good and bad, hot and cold until death do you part.
Can’t do that – than don’t take the vow.
AprilOrit on July 29, 2008 at 6:32 PM
Actually, I’m anti-authoritarian and think about 30% of cops would serve on anyone’s police force as long as they can push people around.
In this case, however, I’m siding with the cop until evidence persuades me otherwise. Part of this is due to how the video looks to me, an experienced cyclist. Part of it is due to the fact that Critical Massholes have less credibility than cops.
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 6:33 PM
I never asked for you name. The only reason I’d want to know your name is so that the paperwork is accurate when you’re sued for slander for calling me a sociopath and psychotic.
Getting him ready for her wasn’t as thrilling as you hoped, eh?
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 6:37 PM
I understand, however I think it is more leftist to allow a mob to take over the streets.
The man in Seattle who was caught in one of these things ended up with broken car windows and a brick in the back of his head. The chant of “We aren’t blocking traffic, we are traffic” taunting drivers of cars…often with children in the car.
They may be “sweet little kids”, but as a mob they go out of there way to intimidate drivers.
Hillbillyjim had a good link with their own words, involving practices of lying down in the street, blocking intersections, these are bullies, no unlike the PETA crowd, or ELF, or any other leftist group.
The officer crossed the line, no doubt, but I have no sympathy for bullies and trouble makers.
From San Francisco:
See, let them run wild and they terroize children and innocent people…that is what a mob does, they are made up of “good” people, but as a mob they destroy.
So you would defend this mob, and I would say enough is sometimes enough, the police are just people, and abuse and disobeying the law just goes so far…
right2bright on July 29, 2008 at 6:43 PM
Living in a free society comes with risks. I will take those risks rather than living in a police state.
Sammy316 on July 29, 2008 at 7:11 PM
I find it interesting a person rides up afterwards, and rides off with the guy’s bike after he’s been dismounted from it.
So, from the video, can you say that the guy who took the bike stole it, or did he know the rider, and was holding it for him until the scuffle passed? I can’t say just from looking at the video. I also can’t tell enough about what happened before and after to make a proper judgment on why what happened happened. I can see it happened, but a lot of people here seem to just press their own personal feelings into this clip to come to whatever conclusions they have about either the riders or the cops.
Boot Hill on July 29, 2008 at 7:29 PM
AprilOrit:
You’d be surprised. Go to your local swingers club for two months (nobody is ever required to participate). I guarantee you will see someone you know. My friends and family don’t know anything about my sex life, and I am sure they would tell you my wife and I are as monogamous as anyone. People who like to have fun usually don’t advertise it.
I know. Not your friends or family.
dave742 on July 29, 2008 at 7:29 PM
So is the police state the one that uses excessive force, or the one that allows mobs to use excessive force?
right2bright on July 29, 2008 at 7:30 PM
We have the right to assemble. I didn’t see a mob using excessive force in the video. I know that pesky document called the Constitution always gets in the way of the authoritarian.
Sammy316 on July 29, 2008 at 7:40 PM
Right. Sure there are no swinger ads on Craigslist, and it’s amazing how AdultFriendFinder or SwingerLifestyle stay in business without any customers.
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 7:44 PM
They are very Left Wing – in another post I called them PETA with bikes.
AprilOrit on July 29, 2008 at 7:54 PM
I agree. The cop was clearly out of line.
AprilOrit on July 29, 2008 at 8:01 PM
The only authoritarians that I can see on the video are the Critical Massholes. They are the ones who are dictating, by mob action, how others may act.
You say you don’t see excessive force but can you imagine being a pedestrian who has to cross? It’s not just drivers they are blocking and endangering. If they rode near the right hand curb, even two abreast, a pedestrian could cross safely across most of the street and then wait for a break between riders to step up to the curb. However, they’re all over the road. It’d be like one of those old video games like Frogger if a pedestrian tried to cross.
“Corking”, surrounding cars and blocking intersections, is tantamount to illegal restraint and might constitute kidnapping.
I think you’d have a hard time squaring the right to assemble peaceably with a moving mob that terrorizes people. Your right to assemble should not impede my right to freely move about in a free society. Your right to assemble does not trump my right to drive my kid to the emergency room. The entire concept of Critical Mass is not to share the road with drivers, it’s to have a moving mass of riders that does not allow drivers to drive. That’s why they called it Critical Mass, the idea being to have enough riders that they can effectively gridlock traffic.
Scroll up and read the comment that describes how Critical Mass blocks traffic, intimidates drivers and otherwise takes over the road. This is not a peaceable assembly but rather a criminal mob.
rokemronnie on July 29, 2008 at 8:14 PM
Apparently you ignored my posts of the CM people in other cities attacking innocent people.
You have to control a mob,or they get out of hand (thus the police to weed out the out of control dudes)…they start to do things like, block traffic, intimidate drivers, cause chaos by blocking autos…remember the purpose, to drive cars off the streets. That is what CM was created for.
You don’t mind a mob, I do…we have a different in opinions. Hope no child has a seizure, or a man with a heart condition…if serious injury occurs, what do you attribute that to, the cost of living in a free society?
Without the police, what do you think would have happened?
right2bright on July 29, 2008 at 9:14 PM
Stated it better then me…
right2bright on July 29, 2008 at 9:15 PM
probably, but with no cops making them “tow the line”, it would be utter choas…CM are animals.
right2bright on July 29, 2008 at 9:17 PM
I do not believe in any one in a Govt position making any of us tow the line.
Sounds like what Dems do to people….as in the Fairness Doctrine etc.
AprilOrit on July 29, 2008 at 9:20 PM
You also don’t see what lead up to the incident in the video. It’s quite possible (and likely) that he was apprehended for a reason; perhaps another cop ordered him to stop and he didn’t- we don’t know.
In broad daylight, in the middle of the street, in front of numerous witnesses I find it unlikely the cop suddenly decided to tackle a random bicylcist on a whim.
The bicyclist wasn’t shot, rammed with a police car or wailed on with a baton- he was tackled. Possibly for good reason.
Hollowpoint on July 29, 2008 at 9:25 PM
We do know, I know I live here. If what you are intimating was true they would have never put the officer on desk duty.
It has been clearly determined that the officer do not act appropiately.
http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=84317
But Mayor Michael Bloomberg said today it looks to him like Pogan crossed the line.
“It looked to me to be totally over the top and inappropriate, but the police commissioner is going to or is in the process of doing an investigation. I don’t want to prejudice any investigation,” said Bloomberg.
Now the cyclist was arrested as well –
Meanwhile, the cyclist, Christopher Long, is facing charges of blocking traffic, resisting arrest, disorderly conduct and assault.
But we now have another officer beating up a person on the 4th of July with a baton. Now what I have told all of you before, you have to be very careful here. If they are unreasonable cops it doesn’t matter what your side of the story is or was. They don’t care.
Point in check – in 1999 they needlessly injured an elderly man in Queens, someone who had survived losing his parents and siblings in a concentration camp, for the same reason. The cops accussed him of carrying a beer in a paper bag in a very nice area of Queens. It was not a beer, but the old coger was with his wife strolling in Queens where he had lived for years and didn’t like the way these young smarty pants cop accussed him of drinking. They hurt him enough for an over night stay in the hospital though.
I’m trying to find it online so I can post it, it was all over the news at that time and Rudy was wild with the 2 young cops. He wanted to personally knock the crap out of them.
They told the PBA that they were repremanded at their precinct along with all the other officers for not pulling quota. They were in a nice area of Queens where there is not that much crime.
Now back to this incident – I saw the video, I live here, been there, done it, know the ropes.
It really has happened more than all of you would like to know.
AprilOrit on July 29, 2008 at 9:47 PM
What does what happens in other cities have to do with this? Someone in Seattle does something wrong so cops should tackle someone in NYC? Thats some scary logic you’re deploying there.
I believe April answered your statement. Why would they sh*thammer the cop if he did nothing wrong?
Sammy316 on July 29, 2008 at 10:03 PM
If there wasn’t a video as evidence would the cop have suffered any repercussions?
Sammy316 on July 29, 2008 at 10:06 PM
I mean they are all not as honorable as we would like –
http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=6&aid=84261
A paprlegal from my cousins office is Puerto Rican and her husband works nights. One morning while dressing for work she wasn’t feeling well and called 911. Up here they send a bus with the cops in a car. The cops came into her apartment to assist her and her hubby was asleep on the couch, as he often did if he came in from working over shift and didn’t want to disturb her. They lived in a modest 1 BR in a modest building in the East village.
The cops made a big deal about her husband sleeping on the couch saying things like “what’s wrong with him, why is he on the couch” and “we better check on him” etc. They started going through her kitchen like they were looking for something. They started surveying the room like something was up and she repestedly told them she was a paralegal and told them where she worked.
She also told them he worked nights and that she needed to go to the hospital. She reminded them that they were there for her and they wouldn’t let up. She had to show them that her husband worked for the City – the Sanitation Dept and that he was just sleeping. They were indignant and rude and could have cared less.
When she came into work later in the day she told my cousin and my sister as well – was working with him at the time.
They were not happy about the way she was treated. My sister called my father who along with my cousin called the precinct and logged a complaint with the desk sergant. He apologized and said he would speak with the officer, that he was new, blah, blah, blah.
My father told him to see that he did or there was going to be a complaint logged in higher up.
We have also had a problem with the FDNY stealing when they go into an apt. I know someone who’s stackable W/D caused a fire in the bathroom of their condo in Tribeca and his wives wedding rings and jewelry were in a dish in the bathroom. They were stolen and in NYC when this happens you have to log a complaint higher up because the NYPD is not allowed to investigate the FDNY.
The FDNY has been caught stealing things from apts that can be resold, they seldom take laptops.
AprilOrit on July 29, 2008 at 10:07 PM
Get real. I saw RTF play at the Auditorium in Chicago to 3 consecutive instant sellout houses, and it could have been Soldier Field, but Chick and the boys only played in the best acoustic theaters.
Despite the Lord of the Flies culture of the hip hop vermin, yes, talent is appreciated in this country.
Jaibones on July 29, 2008 at 11:00 PM
Little full of ourselves, Dave?
(Front row, Illinois State U Auditorium, 1980?)
Jaibones on July 29, 2008 at 11:03 PM
If you truly never heard of Vivaldi, your condescending reference to Jean Luc Ponty is the height of irony.
Ponty may be a great jazz/rock violinist, but I think he’d have a hearty laugh at your comment. Ever hear of The Four Seasons? Vivaldi is one of the great composers. I suppose since he wrote violin concertos that he was at least in part a “violin dude”, but Paganini is perhaps the composer most closely associated w/ violin.
I’m sure that Ponty played Vivaldi and Paganini long before he played with Zappa.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 12:47 AM
Well then you are the one that will run a red light, or drive on the wrong side of the road because you won’t “tow the line”. That is “follow the rules”…sheeesh.
When you get to an intersection with a traffic cop, what do you do, flip them off because you aren’t going to have them tell you what to do?…double sheeeesh.
Fairness Doctrine in the same post of controlling a mob…triple sheeesh.
right2bright on July 30, 2008 at 8:06 AM
Jailbones and Rokemronie:
I don’t understand you people sometimes (maybe never). No, I “truly never heard” of Vivaldi until I looked him up on Wikipedia. I saw he was a violinist. I am not much of a violin fan. I am a DiMeola fan, and for that reason have seen Jean-Luc Ponty. I never would have heard of Jean-Luc POnty either if he hadn’t played with DiMeola. So I brought up Ponty, and asked if he ever heard of him. I have no reason to know if someone has heard of Ponty or not. I don’t know how well known he is, or if someone would be familiar with him just because he likes Vivaldi. So I asked.
So for asking a question, I am “full of [myself],” and the question was “condescending,” and the “height of irony.” You people confuse me. I thought it was a simple question.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 8:08 AM
Cute, but you never answered the question…try again. Does that pesky document include mob intimidation as being a right?
right2bright on July 30, 2008 at 8:09 AM
That’s a strange statement…but I will answer it anyway.
Because it shows what kind of mob they are, in the other cities they have been intimater’s, and attackers. It shows they are just a mob out to terrorize a city. CM is an organization like ELF, an “informal” group of people, gathered together to intimidate car drivers.
Your statement is like saying, sure the Mafia is bad in Chicago, but why not allow them in Boston.
right2bright on July 30, 2008 at 8:18 AM
Jailbones:
Once again, I don’t understand. What I said is real. I saw Clarke at Victor’s by the Bay in San Diego, which is part of the Mission Bay golf course. The room containing the bar is about 35 feet by 25 feet, and most of that room was set up with tables for dinner. The room for the show was directly behind the bar room, and was about 25 feet by 15 feet. During the show, the room Clarke was playing in was full, but not overly crowded. Maybe 150 people. The room with the bar was not nearly as full, and was mainly people eating dinner that were not there for the show. The stucco ceiling in the back room was peeling, and I think the volume of the show caused pieces to fall off, like I said. I got tickets at the door. I think it was a $25 cover (you didn’t have to pay the cover if you were just there for dinner). It was all very real. RTF is certainly a bigger draw, but Clarke, with his own band, couldn’t fill up a bar at a golf course. The show was great.
As for DiMeola playing abroad, that is also very real. Do you ever look at his tour dates? Right now his tour is with RTF, and they are playing mostly in the US, but when DeMeola plays solo or with his band 90% of his shows are outside the US. That is also very real.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 8:35 AM
Jaibones:
“I saw RTF play at the Auditorium in Chicago to 3 consecutive instant sellout houses, and it could have been Soldier Field”
I think it is you that needs to get real. I am seeing RTF one week from today at the Bank of America Pavilion, which has a capacity of 5,000. Boston is a major city. Ticketmaster says seats are available in Section 5 (Center section, Row C. There must still be 1,000 seat available in a small venue for a show next week.
The following day RTF is playing at the United Palace in New York City. New York City is a major city. Ever heard of it? The United Palace hold 3,000 people. According to Ticketmaster, tickets are still available in the balcony. RTF cannot sell out a 3,000 seat venue in the largest city in the nation for a show next week, but you say they could play in Soldiers field. I think it is you that needs to get real.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 9:17 AM
I’m sure it is, but none of that proves that “talent isn’t appreciated in this country.”
Several artists I love have done and will continue to do tours abroad. That doesn’t mean they don’t have fans here. For many, it simply means that they like traveling.
Really? You actually expected people here to know who you were talking about?
Cause your tone certainly implied otherwise, especially with your references to “this country” not appreciating talent.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 9:50 AM
No, it’s like saying that you were able to arrest the Mafia in Chicago due to a crime that occurred there, and now you want to arrest the Mafia in New York for the same crime even though you have no proof that the New York Mafia was in any way involved.
No one, except maybe for the anarchist, is even suggesting that cops shouldn’t be there and shouldn’t take care of a mob.
What we are saying is that the cop was out of line. You’ve even agreed that that’s probably true.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 9:52 AM
Yeah, I can. If it were me though, I’d just wait until the bikes passed. That’s what I do when cars are in the street too.
If that’s the case, then why didn’t the cop who tackled him say that’s why he tackled him?
We have that cop’s version of the story, and we know that version is at least partially a lie. Some people debate whether or not the cyclist was trying to hit the cop. Fine. I’ve got no proof that the cop wasn’t cut in the incident. Fine. However, we can see very clearly that it wasn’t the cop who was knocked over.
At least that much is a complete lie.
So we have a lying cop versus our own eyes. I know. It’s a tough call. The knee jerk response is to side with the police who are generally good people, whereas these mass people tend to be jerks.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 9:52 AM
Guess you missed this sentence I was responding to…
right2bright on July 30, 2008 at 9:58 AM
No, what you should learn to do is listen to the person who wrote the post. I just explained what I meant…I will state another way again (and if you want to change it again, go ahead).
CM is set up to cause chaos, they intimidate drivers of cars and the children inside…a good example is the two, one from Seattle and the other from S.F., they both escalated to physical confrontation.
So the pattern has been established, everywhere they go they taunt (we don’t block traffic, we are traffic) and intimidate, bang on cars, lie down on the street to stop traffic, etc.
With that pattern established, it shows we need a police force to keep them in line, and without that, they become an unruly mob that attacks…as shown by previous (and there are more if you need them) posts.
Or in other words, they are gangsters in Seattle, they are gangsters in NY, they are the CM people by their definition.
No one mentions arresting, that is your fantasy, I said control the bullies, control the mob, because they have been shown to become violent…get it now? Sheesh…
right2bright on July 30, 2008 at 10:09 AM
That sentence shows that you do not understand the CM’rs. They will circle an intersection (called a cyclone, yes they have names for their moves) to keep you at bay.
Glad you are willing to wait while bullies keep you at bay…and they have cameras going all the time to record “incidents”, and hsve been known to set-up confrontations for filming.
Sweet, keep defending them…you like PETA, ELF? You will love these guys.
right2bright on July 30, 2008 at 10:21 AM
No, I caught that, but I think you misunderstood April. I can’t speak for her, but I’m fairly certain she didn’t mean to imply that she doesn’t want cops on the streets at all.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 10:30 AM
Can you please drop the attitude?
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 10:31 AM
I read everything you wrote and wasn’t twisting anything.
I know you said nothing about arresting anyone. I’m the one who said that. I was using it as an example the way you were.
You were trying to say that you can know the Mafia is bad because of what you see in another city and that that’s what happened here.
HOWEVER, I was saying that no, that’s not what happened here. What happened here would be more like trying to penalize a separate but similar group for that first group’s mistake.
Do you understand now, what I was trying to say?
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 10:33 AM
No one has disputed that. No one had a problem with the cops being in the road in the first place.
What we have a problem with is the cop knocking a guy over for no reason.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 10:34 AM
Esthier:
I wasn’t talking to “people here” when I asked. I asked one specific person. That person told me he likes Vivaldi, who is a violin player. Asking a person who likes an obscure (to me) violin player whether or not he knows of a different violin player that I happen to have seen is a simple question. I wanted to know if a person interested in a Baroque violinist also enjoys a modern violinist who plays jazz on an electric violin.
Asking someone if they heard of a violinist does not contian a “tone”. Yes, I said that people in the US don’t appreciate what I consider talent. That is a simple fact, and not up for interpretation. I have shown quite clearly that these people who are among the most talented musicians in this country cannot fill a small venue, sometimes they can’t fill a local bar. Like I said, that is why they play overseas.
Not too long ago I saw Al DiMeola at Sculler jazz club in Harvard Square. I saw an ad for the show in the local paper, and tickets had already been on sale for over a week. I ordered tickets, but did not know where my seats would be. They seat people based on who called first, but you don’t know what table you’ll be at until you arrive. I figured that since tickets were on sale for over a week before I found out about the show that I might not be too close. When I got there, they took me to my seat, which was directly in front of the stage. The stage is not elevated, and I watched the show with my feet actually on the stage itself. I was literally less than 10 feet from DiMeola. I called over a week after tickets went on sale, and I was the first to call. The venue capacity is 185 people, and there were empty seats in the back. Gumbi Ortiz was also playing, and he is a phenomenal conga player. After the show, my wife and I talked to DiMeola and Ortiz, as did many audience members (the whole band hung oout in the foyer after the show). I asked DiMeola why he doesn’t tour in the US, and he said that the US is the only place that he can’t fill a venue like Scullers.
It is simply undeniable that the US like superficial artists, because the entire culture is based on superficiality. But I guess if people can believe that the US is the moral beacon of the world, those same people can easily believe otherwise.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 10:35 AM
The topic isn’t CM at large. It’s this specific event in this specific tape.
In it, the cyclists, while taking up the whole street, are not bothering anyone. The pedestrians are watching the event as though it is a parade.
Using your own posts, it’s unlikely that they would target pedestrians in the first place. Their goal is to get cars off of the road. People who are walking are helping that goal, not hurting it.
I know very well what they’ve done to cars, but that’s a part of their mission, which is to have less cars on the road. Attacking pedestrians has nothing to do with their mission.
I never once defended them. Have you even read my posts? Talk about hypocrisy. You blast me, claiming I haven’t read what you wrote, then you prove you haven’t read anything I’ve written.
I don’t care a bit about CM and agree with you that it’s a horrible organization. I’m not dave. I tend to have little respect for anarchists, especially those who work in the system and take large paychecks home each week and wouldn’t know how to live apart from society if their lives depended on it.
HOWEVER, this cop cannot use the fact that CM sucks to target one guy to knock down. It’s illegal, and it’s not what we need in this country.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 10:42 AM
Esthier:
Maybe you also need to read a little bit about anarchists. Anarchists do not want to live “apart from society.” Actually, I used the term anarchy for conveninience. Participitory economics better describes how I believe a society should be organized.
Maybe it’s partly because you have no idea what the word means.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 10:49 AM
A specific person who posts here would be included in the “people here” demographic. When I asked if you expected anyone here to know, that would include the person you asked.
Considering that you think Vivaldi is obscure, maybe.
Actually, you said people in the US don’t appreciate talent, not your specific taste. Surely you can see how the differences in sentences set your tone as one of an elitist donkey?
No, not exactly. Even by your estimates your brand of talent can attract thousands of people to an event. Your taste isn’t elevated to that of a rock star over here, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t appreciated.
Though after looking him up a second, I just saw that he toured in my own city at our largest theater. We’ll have Carrie Underwood, Melissa Etheridge and Enrique Iglesias there in the next few months, as well as big name comics and other pop icons.
Is that really your definition of unappreciated?
It’s undeniable that large crowds go for the superficial and that’s not just an American phenomenon. With Clear Channel owning nearly every radio station and only playing the same songs over and over again, large crowds are very unlikely to hear that kind of music. It isn’t catchy, and it isn’t being used to sell something on TV.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Esthier:
You’ve convinced me. Accomplished artists such as DiMeola are just as appreciated in the US as in any other country. Do me a favor and contact DiMeola and convince him too. Maybe you can convince him to play in the US more often.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 11:12 AM
From dictionary.com
1. a state of society without government or law.
2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.
3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.
4. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.
I never said they did actually. What I mean by that is that most are not self sufficient and don’t even know how they could be.
Socialism meets anarchy. That’s just… special.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Looks to me like he plays here a lot. I’m counting over 30 shows in the US on his tour dates, next to maybe 10 stops in Russia and less than double digits for any other country. In fact, he played in Texas alone more than he played in some other countries.
Seems to me that he’s already decided that he can sell tickets here.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Esthier:
You do not need to know how to be self-sufficient to be an anarchist. I would prefer to live in a society.
As I said, he is playing in the US currently because he is playing with RTF, who was popular here decades ago. As I said, they still cannot sell out small venues in major cities. As I said, when DiMeola plays solo or with his band, 90% of his shows are abroad. As I said, DiMeola himself alluded to having more popularity abroad. But of course you know more about DiMeola’s relative popularity amongst nations that he does, which is why I asked you to E-mail him to let him know. Couldn’t you please do that for me?
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 11:32 AM
I never said you have to, only that I’d respect more of them if they were.
Clearly. Society is a necessary component of your ideal.
To which I replied, why bother since he’s clearly already playing here. He spent more nights in Texas alone than he spent in several other countries. What more do you want?
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 11:40 AM
You professed ignorance at someone who’s generally considered one of the great composers of all times and then asked if someone heard about a relatively obscure jazz/rock violinist.
I wasn’t the only one who picked up on the seemingly condescending tone of your post. It had all the look of an elitist music fan who’s ignorant about music.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 11:58 AM
So how do you feel about financially supporting $cientology? Would you ignore Corea’s religious affiliation if he was an Evangelical Christian who wasn’t shy about opposing abortion?
How about if he was a religious Zionist who grew up on a West Bank settlement?
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 12:02 PM
Actually, I think the fact that he thinks Vivaldi is primarily known as a violinist is amusing. It’s a bit like calling Mozart or Bach keyboard players.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 12:04 PM
You have to be kidding??
They do not go through the police academy, get their badge and gun to make the public “tow the line”.
Pelosi & crew wants the Fairness Doctrine for the purpose of making Conservatives ‘tow the line”.
That is not what we want from those in positions of authority was my point.
AprilOrit on July 30, 2008 at 12:05 PM
So you only spend your money on people who agree with you?
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 12:05 PM
I’ve decided that if I ever find myself being “corked” in a car by Critical Massholes what I’ll do is roll down the window, act real friendly and engage the Massholes in conversation about bikes. I’d tell them I really like promoting cycling, that I do a lot of riding, and I’d ask them about their bikes. Expressing interest in other CM rides or riding in general, I’d ask them for names and email addresses so I could stay in contact and get info about upcoming events.
After the ride, I’d use the contact information to identify them and press charges for false imprisonment.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 12:16 PM
I do business with many people with whom I disagree about a variety of subjects. I draw the line at financially supporting a dangerous organization that hides behind the First Amendment to harm people.
Just so you know, I also wouldn’t pay to see a movie starring someone involved with the Kabbalah Center, another destructive cult. Stars get a percentage of the movie’s take and I’d rather my money not go to their cults.
http://www.xenu.net for more information on $cientology.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 12:21 PM
I know about Scientology and agree that it’s dangerous. I just wasn’t sure from your posts what you meant, since you asked dave if he’d support a Christian who opposes abortion.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 12:27 PM
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