Too bad to check: New York cop knocks bicyclist over for no apparent reason
posted at 8:51 pm on July 28, 2008 by Allahpundit
Three weeks on the force and already stripped of his badge and gun. Even worse than the crime, the apparent cover-up:
What the video doesn’t show is Pogan arresting Long for attempted assault in the third degree, resisting arrest and disorderly conduct – charges that kept the Bloomfield, N.J. man behind bars for 26 hours before his release late Saturday…
In court papers, Pogan accused Long of purposely swerving his bicycle to block traffic and then using it as a weapon to run down the officer, knocking him off his feet and causing a “laceration” on his forearm.
Watch the clip to see who ran down whom; linebackers get paid good money to make open-field tackles as crunching as this. The only semi-exculpatory explanation I can think of would be if there was a run-in earlier with the same bicyclist such that the cops had reason to believe he was dangerous and needed to apprehend him by any means necessary. I’m skeptical, but we’ll see. Exit quotation: “If it wasn’t caught on video people would not have believed it.”
Blowback
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Ok so my question is… why in the world would he do that with 8 billion eye witnesses and cameras going. That’s very odd.
Dash on July 28, 2008 at 8:55 PM
Stupid. Stupid cop. Idiot.
Grantman on July 28, 2008 at 8:56 PM
A bit strange. Both cops saw him and then began going over at the same time.
amerpundit on July 28, 2008 at 8:56 PM
Too bad not to check. Here in New Orleans, the NOPD is still dealing with generations of covering up this kind of stuff instead of dealing with it.
highhopes on July 28, 2008 at 8:57 PM
Clearly the cop was walking towards the curb and the unfortunate guy in an apparent perfectly legal rally/parade/gathering was going by.
Officer Royd Rage leaned forward and shoved the bike guy over. He wasnt in danger of being hit, there was obviously some kind of rally going on.
Maybe bike dude said “watch it!” and Officer Royd Rage thought he meant “punch me in the side and knock off the bike onto the curb in full view of the crowd!”
New York – the friendliest f***ing place on earth.
Neo on July 28, 2008 at 8:57 PM
What was that cop thinking? Psycho!
WisCon on July 28, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Sure does look like that one rider was singled out. But I’m not going to judge until I hear both sides of this story!
RushBaby on July 28, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Obviously his crime was “intent to bike on the sidewalk in a business district.” You saw him turn slightly to the left.
Ahem.
kc8ukw on July 28, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Stupid like the Marine throwing the puppy off the cliff. These guys have a tough job to do and the majority of them are heroes; idiots like this one give cop-haters ammo.
carbon_footprint on July 28, 2008 at 9:00 PM
Obviously the Officer was demonstrating how dangerous it is to not wear a helmet when cycling because the cyclist could fall off the bike and hit his head on the sidewalk. It’s all about community service.
Mallard T. Drake on July 28, 2008 at 9:00 PM
That’s very erratic unless there was a good reason…
Seixon on July 28, 2008 at 9:00 PM
The officer disapproved of bicyclists in groups?
Pig comes to mind.
BL@KBIRD on July 28, 2008 at 9:01 PM
I lol’d. I didn’t want you, you bastard!
carbon_footprint on July 28, 2008 at 9:01 PM
Didn’t Denzel Washington play this cop in a movie once?
Psycho cop!
Gregor on July 28, 2008 at 9:02 PM
I’m no fan of the ass hats of Critical Mass, but, man!
sondiehl on July 28, 2008 at 9:02 PM
what can you say?
TheSitRep on July 28, 2008 at 9:03 PM
Yes, something had to have gone down earlier. Both cops seem to be making their way toward the curb when they spot him coming. It just doesn’t make any sense. Of course, anything is possible I suppose.
robblefarian on July 28, 2008 at 9:03 PM
Simple: cop didn’t like what they were doing, and waited for his shot. And – damn – did he take it. No doubt whatsoever that the kid was trying to dodge him, and he meant to hurt the kid.
This will cost the taxpayers real money.
Jaibones on July 28, 2008 at 9:04 PM
heh…My dad, a retired cop, just saw this…he said the officer should have stuck his nightstick in the guys spokes…
JetBoy on July 28, 2008 at 9:05 PM
That cop should be publicly caned ,lose his job and do 10 years for assault
TheSitRep on July 28, 2008 at 9:05 PM
Bizarre! He sure does seem to have singled out the guy. It looks like we’re missing something. Like he knew the guy, or they’d ran into each other earlier. The cop just flipped out is another possible theory.
High Desert Wanderer on July 28, 2008 at 9:06 PM
There job is to Protect & Serve, not terrorize and demoralize.
TheSitRep on July 28, 2008 at 9:06 PM
notice someone come in and take the fallen bicycle and just ride off? the cop looked to me to be pruning him out of the crowd…
Kaptain Amerika on July 28, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Yeah, they are a pain in the a$$, unlike “Improv Everywhere” which is actually fun and entertaining…
JetBoy on July 28, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Anything short of the biker being Obama Bin Ladin is no cause for that.
TheSitRep on July 28, 2008 at 9:07 PM
Well we can’t see what the camera doesn’t show us. Who knows… maybe the cop saw something? Ya think?
Fuck those critical mass assholes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km6XTaD1ewU (fun)
Ugly on July 28, 2008 at 9:07 PM
You think it was the black socks?
d1carter on July 28, 2008 at 9:07 PM
I laughed. What can I say, I’m an asshole.
brak on July 28, 2008 at 9:08 PM
I did not read the link yet, but am I the only one who believes that this exerpt is not referring at all to the video, but rather to a previous incident… which would then be the reason the cops were out looking for this guy and then took him down when they found him?
If the guy on the bike was causing problems earlier, using his bike to block traffic and then knocked down an officer and then resisted arrest, it would make perfectly good sense for other officers to be pretty f***ing pissed off and want to take this a**hole down when they finally caught him. Which it looks like they did.
I’ll go read the link now to see if I am off in my take somehow.
Michael in MI on July 28, 2008 at 9:10 PM
DAMN is the NYPD going to be sued. I wish I was the guy on the bike. I would use my new found forture to find this cop and taunt him about losing his job, laughing at him to his face.
muyoso on July 28, 2008 at 9:12 PM
After watching it several times, I wonder if the “purposely swerving his bicycle to block traffic” incident took place up the street. This would have caused the cops to single him out at a distance. I don’t see how the “using the bike as a weapon” charge can be anything other than bogus.
High Desert Wanderer on July 28, 2008 at 9:12 PM
WOW, I am a cyclist. That is very dangerous. Good thing the idjit didn’t try that on me. I carry mace!
Thrown him in jail!
iam7545 on July 28, 2008 at 9:12 PM
Yeah, you’re off. You should read the link first probably.
apollyonbob on July 28, 2008 at 9:14 PM
He should’ve thrown a slew of Snicker’s at the bicyclists.
SouthernGent on July 28, 2008 at 9:14 PM
I was reading Wikipedia about Critical Mass and they often use a technique called “corking” to block traffic. They apparently have pissed off a lot of cops and motorists with their tactics.
Still, this guy had to done nothing short of rape that cop’s wife to warrant that kind of take out.
carbon_footprint on July 28, 2008 at 9:15 PM
rookie cowboy cop. seen many, few last long.
Sammy316 on July 28, 2008 at 9:15 PM
Thank you. My work here is done. :-)
Mallard T. Drake on July 28, 2008 at 9:15 PM
I’m sticking with my initial reaction. I have a very hard time believing that the cop just decided to pick out a random person on a bike to knock on his ass for no particular reason. Sorry, just not likely. More likely is that this guy had been causing problems previously and the cops were told to look out for him and to take extreme measures, because he had resisted arrest previously.
Michael in MI on July 28, 2008 at 9:15 PM
Ummmm,they had a parade permit,i would imagine!
canopfor on July 28, 2008 at 9:16 PM
From reading about Critical Mass, they are a public nuisance. That doesn’t excuse Barney Fife’s actions.
john1schn on July 28, 2008 at 9:16 PM
Dude, you know that Lenin poster you found? It appears it has been scrubbed from Google. Did you ever keep a link to the source?
I have it, it’s got wide circulation now (which may be why it disappeared) but I have somebody asking for a high res which is why I wenbt looking for it…
TheBigOldDog on July 28, 2008 at 9:16 PM
If I am wrong, then fine, but I find it pretty pathetic that people jump on law enforcement officers like this without all the facts, when most people here would surely not do this to a military member with scant video evidence like this. Assuming law enforcement are corrupt thugs is what the Left does to the military. I find it discouraging to see the ‘right’ doing it here, based on some 30 second video clip and minimal facts.
Michael in MI on July 28, 2008 at 9:17 PM
@ carbon_footprint on July 28, 2008 at 9:15 PM
Exactly, the cop gave no indication to the man to slow down or anything, so he wasnt trying to arrest him. No matter what the cop did, he jumped right to the last resort, tackling the guy off the bike, which could have paralyzed the man for life. Its as if a cop shoots at your car for speeding instead of attempting to pull you over, its just not what is supposed to happen.
muyoso on July 28, 2008 at 9:17 PM
Another tidbit,why did the camera guy
pan over,and wait at that spot,with
the camera lense positioned!
jus sayin!
canopfor on July 28, 2008 at 9:19 PM
I agree that these cops were looking for this guy. Even if they weren’t,why would the idiot swerve to miss him in the same direction he was walking?
x-wing on July 28, 2008 at 9:20 PM
@ Michael in MI on July 28, 2008 at 9:17 PM
The guy couldn’t of done ANYTHING to warrant that treatment. Even if he was a murder suspect, you don’t tackle him. You put your hand up telling him to stop, with your hand on your gun. This is one of many asshole cops who sees a badge as a justification for whatever it is they do.
muyoso on July 28, 2008 at 9:21 PM
i’d like to hear the officer’s side of the story. if they were looking for the guy for a previous incident involving assaulting an officer, etc. if its that incident they claim the charges stem from then good luck w/ all that! the city will rightfully hang him out to dry.
chasdal on July 28, 2008 at 9:23 PM
I’m thinking that biker had to have done something to provoke the cops’ reaction. Flipped him off or something we couldn’t see.
But really, I just want a reason to cheer for taking out one of those critical mass punks.
TexasDan on July 28, 2008 at 9:23 PM
muyoso on July 28, 2008 at 9:21 PM
Really? So you know all the facts about the situation? You know what this guy had done previously? You know about what he did to resist arrest before?
As I said, this kind of criticism and demonizing is what the Left does to the military. I guess it’s okay to assume the police are all corrupt a**holes based on the actions of a few, but if the Left dares assume the same of the military, then the Left are a bunch of jerks. Interesting.
Michael in MI on July 28, 2008 at 9:23 PM
Royd Rage,…
Neo on July 28,2008 at 8:57PM.
Neo:How do you know if the Officer was taking,
Winstrol,Deca-Durablin,or Depo-Testerone?
canopfor on July 28, 2008 at 9:25 PM
Really? Interesting. I think it was actually linked to Stormfront. It was like page two and fourth image from the left at the top for Google image search.
carbon_footprint on July 28, 2008 at 9:25 PM
Cop looking to go out on comp
TheBigOldDog on July 28, 2008 at 9:26 PM
I agree, they were looking for him. Did that deserve the tackle?… Don’t know what he did. I’m reserving judgement for now.
4shoes on July 28, 2008 at 9:26 PM
What a silly comparison. Are you saying the bicyclist was a deadly threat to the officer and had to be taken out? Trying to use the military using overwhelming force as an excuse to exonerate the cop, is an insult to the military.
firepilot on July 28, 2008 at 9:27 PM
Watch the moment of impact a few times. the biker clearly swerves towards the cop just before the moment of impact. I think he provoked it.
jimmy the notable on July 28, 2008 at 9:28 PM
Hah! That cop should be given a medal. Critical Mass members are nothing but disruptive punks. Dude deserved it.
KSgop on July 28, 2008 at 9:28 PM
I think there is some sort of back story here. The cop doesn’t seem to be randomly picking off bikers, because several pass right in front of him, and one almost brushes him, just prior to the cop leveling the hunted biker. The officer wanted “that guy” for some reason. Whether that “reason” justifies the freaking awesome hit, we’ll have to wait for any follow-up.
Weight of Glory on July 28, 2008 at 9:28 PM
Why did the camera guy turn around to video where the incident took place? There were more bicyclers coming from where he was shooting. Anyway, I think it was a bit overmuch, regardless of why the officer did it.
Sue on July 28, 2008 at 9:29 PM
That cop did not get to beat his wife the night before so he had to brutilize a citizen.
TheSitRep on July 28, 2008 at 9:30 PM
@ Michael in MI on July 28, 2008 at 9:23 PM
It doesnt matter. As a cop, that is not how you handle a situation. Also, when it comes to cops, I almost always take the side of the person before I side with the cop. I have seen too many unjustified taserings, and have had too many cops in my family and friends tell me their “stories”. But I am a stickler for cops just doing their jobs and protecting us, not getting their jollies off hurting people unnecessarily.
muyoso on July 28, 2008 at 9:31 PM
That was a pretty good hit,…for a rookie! Now let me show you how the Pain Train keeps it real in the house!
Alden Pyle on July 28, 2008 at 9:31 PM
This could very well be,a cyclist that has in the
past,had a confrontation with said officer,maybe
this cyclist,fipped the bird,cuused the officer!
And maybe,the officer,was thinking at the time,
unbelievable,here comes that punk!
I ride a Raliegh road bike,so there is something
that isn’t right with this ordeal!
canopfor on July 28, 2008 at 9:31 PM
Really dude. Try for yourself. Here’s your original post:
Tell me you’re not freaked out now. Why would that image disappear from every conceivable Google search?
Anyway, I found a source of what I think is a copy of the original poster.
TheBigOldDog on July 28, 2008 at 9:32 PM
Also, did you guys notice at the end of the clip, several bikers came right up to where the action was, and one of the guys walked off with the bike that was being ridden by our “victim”?
Weight of Glory on July 28, 2008 at 9:32 PM
From ACE critical mass bikers trash SUV
Seems to be a theme going here
William Amos on July 28, 2008 at 9:34 PM
You missed the comparison completely. The comparison was not the military to cops, but the Left demonizing the military without knowing all the facts, based on their bias against the military… to those people here automatically assuming the worst about this cop, based on their bias against law enforcement, without having all the facts.
I’m not insulting the military, I am insulting the people here who are acting as judge and jury based on a 30 second video and one article. That is exactly what the left does. I guess everyone turns into John Murthas when they have certain biases (in this case, against cops).
Michael in MI on July 28, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Critical Mass aims to take over the streets through agression and intimidation.
There are always at least two versions of events. From the article: What the video doesn’t show is…
everything else.
I’ll wait for the hearing.
jaime on July 28, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Wow. Seriously? Weirdest comment I’ve seen in a while.
Gregor on July 28, 2008 at 9:36 PM
A legal block.
whitetop on July 28, 2008 at 9:37 PM
After watching it again, the policeman looks like he is getting ready for something prior to the something happening and the bicycle guy puts his head down like he is ignoring an order to stop and is going to barrel through. I would like to hear the officer’s story before passing too much judgment, even if it looks like excessive force from the video.
Sue on July 28, 2008 at 9:37 PM
Yes, I just tried it out. That is freaked out material definitely!
carbon_footprint on July 28, 2008 at 9:37 PM
Respect mah authoritah!
doubleplusundead on July 28, 2008 at 9:38 PM
@ Gregor on July 28, 2008 at 9:36 PM
Find me a police manual where it says to resort initially to tackling a suspect. Any manual from any country will do. This cop certainly knows his, because he JUST got tested on it 3 weeks earlier. The cop gave no indication to the guy to stop, AT ALL.
muyoso on July 28, 2008 at 9:38 PM
Please! He was trying to go around him to the left, and only started to lean in to compensate for the impact that was obviously about to take place. You don’t really believe what you said, do you?
Gregor on July 28, 2008 at 9:39 PM
And if you look closely, on the cops topleft forearm just below his elbow you see a small bandage…. and furthermore…why were the cops standing in the middle of the street if they weren’t looking for someone?
jerrytbg on July 28, 2008 at 9:39 PM
@ Sue on July 28, 2008 at 9:37 PM
Read the article, the cops story is in there, and its obviously BS from watching the video.
muyoso on July 28, 2008 at 9:39 PM
Allah: look into “Critical Mass” (there was an incident in Seattle just this past weekend). These guys are assholes. Odds are the dude on the bike had it coming.
Purple Fury on July 28, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Thanks for this. I’m sure after dealing with Critical Mass a**holes like this, the cops’ patience had worn thin. Blasting these a**holes on their ass sounds about the right thing to do.
As I said, we don’t know what this “victim” did previously. If he were involved in anything like the a**holes did in the link provided by William Amos, I don’t blame the cop for taking action. I applaud him.
You go around trashing SUVs, punching civilians and causing havok, you better be ready to face the consequences, including getting knocked on your ass.
Again, how about everyone wait for ALL the facts, before demonizing the cop based on 30 seconds of video and the testimony of some punk bicyclers.
Michael in MI on July 28, 2008 at 9:42 PM
Maybe there were no backpacks allowed?
We don’t get to see what the biker was doing to catch the cops eye.
NYPD usually have too much on their plate to mess around.
Hening on July 28, 2008 at 9:42 PM
Had to watch it again. That was a freakin’ awesome takedown.
x-wing on July 28, 2008 at 9:42 PM
Maybe he rode over the cop’s carbon footprint.
Texas Rainmaker on July 28, 2008 at 9:43 PM
From ACE,..
William Amos on july 28,2008 at 9:34PM.
William Amos: Now the plot gets thicker,and thickerer,
so the enviromentalist’s,giving the bicycle
a bad name,beat the sh#t out of a car owner!
So now,the police had a reason to be on the
lookout,of Lefty’s who don’t think any laws
apply to them,as long as the means justify
the ends,as in the vechicle owner,should of
known better,using percious gasoline!
canopfor on July 28, 2008 at 9:44 PM
Watch the video a bunch of times. If the cop is walking towards you, you assume he wants to talk to you, not tackle you. The guy on the bike should have slowed down. He didn’t and he could have went around him to the left. At the last second he deliberately shifts all of his weight directly at the cop, turned his bike and went at him. The cop responded by pushing him. Look at the history of this group and of militant bikers in general. He isn’t some innocent guy who has the slightest bit of fear of police. I think the cop should have pulled him off the bike instead of tacking him the way he did, but the biker is just as much in the wrong for threatening the cop.
jimmy the notable on July 28, 2008 at 9:44 PM
And believe me, I ride my bike every day, you don’t shift your weight like he did unless you have some intent behind it.
jimmy the notable on July 28, 2008 at 9:45 PM
The video is obviously not depicting the cops’ story. The cops’ story is about a previous incident and this was where the cops tracked this guy down. It makes complete sense that the cop is saying that *previously*, not seen in the video, is where the ‘victim’ was causing havok, blocking traffic and assaulted a cop. The video is showing a later situation where they finally tracked this jerk down.
Michael in MI on July 28, 2008 at 9:45 PM
I can empathize with the cop. Just think of the mental torture, standing there looking at all those enviro lib weenies, all sporting idiotic grins while they rode by you on bicycles for goodness sake! This is New York, not Beijing! Get an SUV! You godless commies.
RMR on July 28, 2008 at 9:46 PM
I think that scenario is extremly likely. It’s possible they had just witnessed the cyclist commit some sort of illegal act moments earlier, and they both started their movement toward him at that point.
This would explain the camera seemingly being focused on the incident.
Gregor on July 28, 2008 at 9:46 PM
I believe this is exactly what happened. There’s no way the cop didn’t say anything, and the biker should have stopped. Instead, he clearly maintains speed and possibly speeds up.
jimmy the notable on July 28, 2008 at 9:48 PM
It’s like the Soviet Union. History is being airbrushed before our eyes – Geeze, I’m getting paranoid now! LOL!
TheBigOldDog on July 28, 2008 at 9:48 PM
Quote from WCBSTV new York
William Amos on July 28, 2008 at 9:49 PM
I’ve used a bike for transportation in the Detroit area for the past 15 years or so, now riding a titanium frame Litespeed road bike w/ a road suspension fork by Rock Shox. I ride 125-200 miles a week when the weather is good. I also have issues with authority figures so normally I’d think the cop was out of line, but I have no patience for the Critical Mass asshole poseurs.
Critical Mass organizes mass bike rides at rush hour on Friday evenings in major cities to deliberately obstruct traffic at precisely the time of week when people really want to get home. They want to piss off drivers and act morally superior. They claim to be advocates for bikes as transportation, but I doubt they’ve ever convinced a single driver to start riding to work.
This just makes it more dangerous for those of us who actually use bicycles. Their regard for cycling safety can be seen by lack of helmets and the idiot filming video while riding.
The only thing worse than a Critical Mass jerk is a Critical Mass jerk who’s also a member of PETA. Critical Mass poseurs and serious cyclists are pretty much mutually exclusive. I ride with a club sometimes on Wed. evenings, with as many as 100 or more riders some weeks. The rules include nobody over the yellow line, single file when there are cars, no blowing stop signs or red lights when there’s traffic. I’m sure the CM assholes think our fancy road bikes and lycra bike clothes make us elitists. We wear cycling apparel not for looks but because you’ll chafe your private parts without cycling shorts. Maybe that’s why the CM rides are so short.
The criminal complaint alleges that the CM jerk swerved to block traffic and also deliberately ran into the cop. Remember, CM deliberately blocks traffic so the allegation that the rider swerved to block traffic is credible. We don’t see that happening because the camera is facing away from the intersection. The cop notices Long, the cyclist, some time before he rides into the frame and deliberately intercepts him. This does not appear to be a random act. The cyclist begins to shade left towards the curb as the cop moves in his direction. Perhaps the cop was trying to force him to the curb. The cyclist makes no attempt to slow down, though, and in fact is arcing back towards the center of the road when the cop tackles him. Perhaps he thought he could swerve around the cop and mistimed the swerve, but as an experienced cyclist, if I was about to have a collision with a pedestrian, I’d be cranking hard on the handlebars, not making a lazy swerve, and hauling down hard on the brakes to reduce the impact speed. The cyclist doesn’t stop pedaling and doesn’t appear to hit the brakes.
rokemronnie on July 28, 2008 at 9:49 PM
I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one who can read!
jerrytbg on July 28, 2008 at 9:49 PM
If all the cop wanted to do was knock over a bicyclist he had dozens of chances. Obviously there’s a lot more to the story. Critical Mass jerks are noted for picking fights and then using the retaliation to prove their ‘point.’
Beagle on July 28, 2008 at 9:51 PM
For all your moral outrage, I only give you partial credit. Can you without question tell us all that was going on in that video? What happened off camera? What was really going on?
Unless you think cops congregate to attack innocent civilians, you really need to harass innocent citizens you really need to get a grip and understand that the video isn’t telling the whole story and investigation is necessary before making the kind of comments you are making.
highhopes on July 28, 2008 at 9:52 PM
Do these Critical Mass groups go in circles or something, such that the officer would have encountered the cyclist before?
There were a bunch of cars CM was weaving through at the beginning. Maybe the officer saw the cyclist throw something or pound on a car hood.
I don’t think it was cool of how the officer stopped him, but I’d like to hear both sides before I decide.
Dusty on July 28, 2008 at 9:53 PM
Serious cyclists hate Critical Mass because they make city streets more dangerous, not less dangerous for people who actually ride. They deliberately anger drivers and make them less sympathetic to cyclists, less likely to share the road, and more likely to run a rider off the road.
I don’t know how a ride around a downtown area on Friday evening demonstrates how bikes can be used as transportation.
rokemronnie on July 28, 2008 at 9:53 PM
Paging Dr. Jindal. Paging Dr. Jindal. Emergency exorcism in cell 213, Dr. Jindal.
Eh, the guy had it coming… or maybe it was Fate and neither of them could’ve done anything to prevent it. Fate may have already had the event intricately planned but was distracted and allowed the physics and timing to get out of sync thus forcing Fate to intervene at the last moment by awkwardly repositioning the cop. It was probably supposed to be an accident.
That’s what my Ouija board told me, anyway.
/jk
FloatingRock on July 28, 2008 at 9:54 PM
Critical mass has blocked traffic and prevented Car owners from using the street. Its part intimidation tactics.
Not sure what the Cop saw but it is possible he saw this biker doing something illegal.
William Amos on July 28, 2008 at 9:54 PM
Maybe the cop massively liked his bike.
(I suspect a firing, a lawsuit and reality show appearance by bike guy.)
profitsbeard on July 28, 2008 at 9:55 PM
7.8 for style
8.4 for execution
———
8.1 Overall
hillbillyjim on July 28, 2008 at 9:55 PM
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