Too bad to check: New York cop knocks bicyclist over for no apparent reason
posted at 8:51 pm on July 28, 2008 by Allahpundit
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Three weeks on the force and already stripped of his badge and gun. Even worse than the crime, the apparent cover-up:
What the video doesn’t show is Pogan arresting Long for attempted assault in the third degree, resisting arrest and disorderly conduct - charges that kept the Bloomfield, N.J. man behind bars for 26 hours before his release late Saturday…
In court papers, Pogan accused Long of purposely swerving his bicycle to block traffic and then using it as a weapon to run down the officer, knocking him off his feet and causing a “laceration” on his forearm.
Watch the clip to see who ran down whom; linebackers get paid good money to make open-field tackles as crunching as this. The only semi-exculpatory explanation I can think of would be if there was a run-in earlier with the same bicyclist such that the cops had reason to believe he was dangerous and needed to apprehend him by any means necessary. I’m skeptical, but we’ll see. Exit quotation: “If it wasn’t caught on video people would not have believed it.”
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No, you’ve let your obvious distaste for your native country and the people who live here color your perceptions. Talent is a lot more common than you think. I can think of at least a half dozen local bands and singers that have way more talent than most of the pop tarts on the radio.
I have a small embroidery business and I’ve supplied bands with merchandise. One of those musicians, Steve Kimock, is a world class guitar player, considered a guitarist’s guitarist. Steve makes a decent living now, in part by cultivating his online fanbase, but he’ll never headline halls bigger than 1500 people.
The fact is that most talented people never find a huge market for their talent whether in the US or elsewhere. The Beatles and Bob Dylans of the music biz, when great talent manages to find great commercial success, are the exceptions, in this country and everywhere else.
Considering how vapid Europop is, I can’t believe you’d fall for the old cliche that Europe has a greater appreciation for art. Abba? The Scorpions?
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 12:30 PM
Because we all know that ABBA and Enrique Iglesias and other Euro pop stars are such deep and meaningful artists.
Nothing is lamer than Europop.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Europop, Britrock, whatever.
If it’s not NIN, TOOL, The Mars Volta, or Jethro Tull, it sucks.
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 12:58 PM
In the comments to the Seattle Post Intelligencer’s article about a motorist who was assaulted by Critical Massholes after trying to free his car from a corking, numerous pedestrians reported being harassed and/or injured by Critical Massholes.
Their goal is to get cars off of the road. People who are walking are helping that goal, not hurting it.
Their goal is to take over the streets and intimidate. Their ultimate goal is remaking society in their own image.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 1:00 PM
I was just trying to determine if Dave is indifferent to artists’ political or religious affiliation in general or if he’s just a hypocrite.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 1:06 PM
NIN and TOOL are just ugly noise to me. YMMV. Don’t know about Mars Volta, and Jethro Tull/Ian Anderson’s best work were their first three albums, before Aqualung made them monsters of rock. This Was, Stand Up and Benefit are among the finest rock records of the late 1960s and early 1970s.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Oh the MELODRAMA!!!!! Chripes, every protest group does not have world domination in mind. Some just want to change the status quo. You know…like a bunch of landowners in the North East did 250+ years ago…
Republicans really seem to hate the America our Forefathers loved so much and fought so hard to establish. Seems like maintaining the status quo within the American continent is the primary goal of conservatives these days…And I know that I’ll get reprimanded and told that the GOP has done this this this and this to try and change but the democrats block it or the GOP has done more for change in the past 8 years than the libs have blah blah blah…but then you’d be making the mistake that I think the Libs are any better than the GOP…I don’t.
The current incarnation of both Republicans AND democrats is reprehensible…and I’m ashamed to say I was ever a member of EITHER party.
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 1:10 PM
I’ll agree about Tull, but the problem you’re having with tool and NIN is in trying to compare them with other known and established conventions. Also, Early NIN was noisy, but a lot of the newer stuff is far more melodic and “pretty” I guess.
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 1:14 PM
Esthier:
I will try again. He is playing in the US now because he is playing with RTF. When he returns to playing with his own band and/or solo, he will return to playing mainly overseas as he as done for decades. Why can’t you understand this? You made an insightful post earlier touching on the psychological reasons why some on this thread are unable to realize that what the cop did in the video was wrong. I then tell you how two of the greatest musicians around cannot draw 200 people (when headlining their own band) to a concert in the US, and then tell you how one of those musicians said himself that he draws more people overseas, You ignore it and blather on and on because for some reason the idea of accompished artists being more appreciated abroad offends you. I guess noticing in-group/out-group dynamics in others does not necessarily mean you can notice it in yourself.
Rokemronnie:
I rest my case. Anyone who’s played an instrument for 2 years can play their elementary music, and their lyrics are inane. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with liking a band like the Beatles, but to call them talented is a joke. I myself like Lou Reed, but he cannot play guitar and cannot sing. At least he can write lyrics, which the Beatles cannot. Even though I think Lou Reed is awesome, he is certainly not what I am talking about when I think of a talented musician.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 1:18 PM
you may be able to reproduce it, but can you actually PRO-duce it? Could you write a song with elementary changes and inane lyrics and have it go multi platinum? That, in and of itself is a talent. Sure the spice girls and britney did it too, but the Beatles didn’t have a multi million dollar spin machine behind them brainwashing everyone into buying their record.
They were fresh, they were exactly what the world wanted at that time, and they could write a tune you could easily reproduce. That’s not a Talent? Perhaps the words you’re looking for are technically proficient. I you said that none of the Beatles were particularly Technically proficient, then I’d agree 100%. Technically proficient, however, in no way indicates talent.
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 1:24 PM
Will anyone listen to the Beatles music in 300 years? Very doubtful.
In contrast, people are still listening to Vivaldi, Bach and Mozart centuries later. And they still will be, long after the Beatles are forgotten as anything more than a footnote.
Because the great composers wrote timeless music. It doesn’t speak to one generation, it speaks to the human soul.
NoDonkey on July 30, 2008 at 1:32 PM
neffytee:
Fine. Maybe I used a term that other people would disagree with. I do not define talent by record sales. I define talent by devoting yourself to a craft and mastering that craft to a level unachievable by others, whether the craft is an instrument, writing lyrics, or writing music. Some can do all three exceptionally well, which is another sign of exceptional talent. I find nothing wrong with popular music or other popular art forms, but being popular for me does not show talent.
So maybe with a better definition, I will repeat myself. People in other countries, AS A WHOLE (which means I don’t care if you, or Joe Public down the street, or ABBA, or etc. is an exception, I am talking about entire populations), appreciate people who master their craft more than those in the US. I have clearly showed this with one artist, which certainly can not prove such a large statement, but it is an example. If you disagree, fine. I never realized this statement was going to touch off such a storm. Of course I realize that this offends your “in-group” in the same way that criticism of the cop in the video does. So I learned something.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 1:39 PM
So who are the contributors from our time? John Williams, Philip Glass, Stephen Reich? Danny Elfman?
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 1:40 PM
I understand that, but maybe I’m not making myself clear. Regardless of why he’s here, he’s here, making money. What more do you want?
Sorry I was boring you with my blather, but I just don’t get your point. Your guy isn’t as rich and famous as our pop stars, but then again, that’s true even when you move the location to Europe even though he does better there. And even if he isn’t seen for his true greatness, he’s still appreciated here. For you to claim otherwise is disingenuous.
I’m not offended. I was just pointing out why people thought you came off like a snob.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 1:41 PM
If that’s true, then they’re stupid. Once a biker is off of his bike, he’s a pedestrian.
I’d agree with that. I really like With Teeth, but I can’t say I’m a huge fan of the band.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 1:43 PM
I have to disagree with you. If any music from that time period has proven it can stand the test of time, it’s the Beatles.
And don’t kid yourself. Plenty of those composers were pop in their day. Time has a way of changing perspectives.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 1:46 PM
Don’t lump me in with the rest of the psychopaths in this thread or on this blog. I, being a classically trained vocalist, simply wanted you to more clearly state your position. If there is anyone who understands the US’s lack of interest in disciplined study of the arts, it’s the Classical vocalist. Fewer jobs available in the US for classical vocalists than in the professional sports fields, yet 10 times as many people trying to make a living doing it.
In the US as a classical vocalist, the only way you’re going to support yourself and live as comfortably as say wall street middle management, is it you’re in the top 1% talent wise, can sell yourself better than a successful prostitute at a baptists convention, and have more connections than Grand Central Station. I settled for wall steet middle management. (I didn’t go to some rinky-dink no name school either)
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 1:47 PM
“So who are the contributors from our time? John Williams, Philip Glass, Stephen Reich? Danny Elfman?”
I don’t pretend to know. That remains to be seen. As you know, most of the great composers were not celebrated during their lifetime. It took years.
Maybe the Beatles will turn out to be timeless, but I really doubt it. Maybe blues or jazz.
But I think a requirement would be, that great music is not tied to a particular time. One reason we all love rock music from our youth, is because it reminds us of our youth. If the same music came out today, most of us wouldn’t care for the same songs, because there’s no emotional thrill or nostalgia surrounding them.
NoDonkey on July 30, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Esthier:
My point about appreciating music in the US is tied to the Al DiMeola thing. I want to see him as much as possible, but I can’t see him often, because whenever I check out his tour dates, he’s out of the country (until the present tour). I wish this were not the case. I wish more people liked him here so he would play here more often so I could see him more often. That’s about all I meant. Of course, that is balanced by the fact that when I do see him, I get to practically sit on stage with him and watch him from 8 feet away because nobody else is buying tickets. That part I like. I guess if I went to see him in Europe, I’d see him more, but from farther away. I guess I’ll look on the bright side.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 1:51 PM
I meant psychopaths in the nicest possible way of course
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 1:51 PM
“If any music from that time period has proven it can stand the test of time, it’s the Beatles.”
What the Beatles did during their time was new, but they’ve been imitated so many times, they don’t seem particularly original to anyone who listens to them for the first time.
Because their music is simple, it’s been easy to imitate it.
Whereas I can clearly tell the difference between contemporary symphony music and that of the great composers. It just hasn’t been replicated.
NoDonkey on July 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM
beefytee:
sorry for lumping
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 1:55 PM
well its apples and oranges. “Contemporary symphonies” are using totally different compositional “rules” than those of the great composers. Those in the Classical music field recognize Stravinsky and Bartok and Schoenberg as “great composers” yet I would be quite surprised if you could tell them apart from “contemporary symphonies” meaning written in the last 20 years.
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 2:01 PM
No, now you’re saying something different, and that’s not necessarily offensive if true.
Honestly, I’m not as moved by those who have mastered their instrument. It generally just takes years and years of study rather than a natural “gift.” Those who want to have that kind of talent can earn it.
I’m personally not as interested in that kind, because I know I could be at that level if I wanted to. Anyone, even the most tone deaf among us, can get there. Music at that level is a lot of math and relatively objective.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 2:03 PM
beeftytee:
My wife is a great jazz vocalist, and used to have regular gigs. She got a degree is psychology to make a living. You have to be Diana Krall to make a living with the music she does.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 2:04 PM
Thats what I’m saying. I took my 150K education in Opera performance, parlayed it into a deputy CFO at a hedge fund, while singing for a no-profit organization just for fun.
Jane Monheit was my best friend in College, and we still keep very much in touch. The things she has had to go through to get “famous” are unbelievable. and she’s not even “Famous” outside of the small tight knit little group that is Jazz vocalists. To boot, she has absolutely one of the best voices I have heard in jazz in 20 years.
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 2:11 PM
That’s honestly why I think they’ll survive. I’m only 26. I wasn’t even around when Lenin was and new many Beatles songs without knowing they were Beatles songs.
People of my generation and even generations younger than I, are falling in love with the Beatles still. For us it isn’t about reliving youth. We’re still young.
I understand your feelings. The past year or so I’ve been trying to explore more music through the Internet, and I’ve mostly been getting Indie artists. I love being able to see them at small venues where less than a hundred people can even fit through the door. We’ve got some really great clubs for that here.
Even if I don’t get to see them as often as I like, I prefer it this way. Their tickets and music are cheaper, so even if I can only see them at festivals, it’s worthwhile.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 2:12 PM
beefytee:
Wow. Do you think she would want to come with me and my wife to one of our special “parties”? Just kidding.
I hadn’t heard of her until my wife took me to see her in CA. Yes, she was amazing.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 2:20 PM
ok so now how do we relate this back to a guy on a bike getting pushed down by a cop?
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 2:24 PM
I’m not sure what else there is to say about it. The cop had to run and lunge at the guy to knock him down, so unless the guy did something off camera that we didn’t see and the cop didn’t report, he was completely in the wrong and will hopefully be fired.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Agreed, I don’t understand why people are even attempting to defend the Cop based only on the video.
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 2:37 PM
beefytee:
IMO, the reason people freaked out about my statment that Americans don’t appreciate “talent” as much as other countries is the same reason people will defend the cop (or the military) until the end of time regardless of any facts. It is simple in-group/out-group stuff. When a member of your in-group does something awful or is attacked in some way, most people will do anything to defend that member of their in-group. They will ignore reality in the process. My wife is doing a study on it right now to show how this is cross-cultural. Subsets of a population will react identically in indentical situations. For me, the interesting thing is to look at the phenomenon of terrorism from this cross-culural basis, and to think about what groups will react in what ways to a different situation. If the US, for example, was oppressed by another population in the same way as Palestinians have been over the course of decades, and were ignored by the world, and “acceptable” forms of resistance were tried and failed, what groups in the US would become the “terrorists”? Who would become the suicide bombers? Of course the answer to this is the people on this blog. All the traits of the “terrorist”, from a very strong in-group attachment to their society as well as other traits, makes this obvious. Of course, that’s not the only group. I know I would be a “terrorist” as well in the same situation, and I have absolutley no in-group attachment to this country. So the answer is complex, but fun to think about.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 2:39 PM
Few great songwriters are gifted instrumentalists so it doesn’t bother me that there are better bass players or piano players than McCartney and Lennon. However, to characterize L&M or George Harrison’s songs as “simple” is to ignore the fact that they were great songwriters who wrote unconventional music, using all sorts of diminished and augmented chords (n part because they weren’t trained).
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 2:45 PM
I think this biker, I mean horse, has been beaten to death. I don’t think any much more can be added.
The music discussion though, is more interesting.
NoDonkey on July 30, 2008 at 2:47 PM
We can look at a situation as being isolated, the police shouldn’t.
They have to look at the potential, they have to anticipate, they have to use their knowledge of how a mob can get out of control. The fact that it didn’t, means they did their job (according to other cities). One man can spark an incident, and one man taken out can quell a potential problem.
I understand the cop may have overreacted, but that comes with the job, anticipating potential problems and quelling them.
We hold them to such a higher standard, by sheer numbers x are going to make a mistake.
Ever been swept up by a mob…it ain’t pretty, it often starts off as innocent or a celebration.
But the cause is anarchy by the CM’s. I am willing to let this go, as long as no serious physical harm. And a lesson to the biker, run with an unruly mob, and this is what happens. And a lesson to the cop, calm down, get more experience.
You take it as an isolated incident, I view it differently. It is a scary pattern that can get out of control, and a rooky made a mistake.
right2bright on July 30, 2008 at 2:49 PM
bombastic but stirring,
Boring and eager to embrace any musical tradition as long as it has nothing to do with Glass’ Jewish background,
Less boring than Glass.
It’s interesting that two of your four choices are known primarily for scoring movies. My favorite composer for film and tv is Peter Himmelman.
I do embroidery. Gildan Ultra tees are a better deal.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 2:53 PM
No one was “freaked out” by it. We disagreed. And it was a broad statement addressing an entire country.
Now that you’ve explained your positions further, I for one, have conceded some of your points.
And obviously I agree with your conclusion, since I said as much earlier, but I can’t say I enjoy conversations that easily lend themselves to moral equivalence.
I post here, but I would never become a terrorist (as defined as someone who specifically targets civilians for the purpose of terrorizing a population into cooperation and/or obedience). I could become an outlaw given the circumstances, but I’d never become a murderer.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 2:53 PM
We should hold them to a higher standard. With great power comes great responsibility. It’s cheesy but true. If the rookie can’t handle the responsibility, he shouldn’t be given the power.
I’m viewing it as an isolated incident, because that’s what it is. An officer attacked one guy. He didn’t attack the whole group. Honestly, I don’t get why he did what he did. I’d understand better if he had tried to take them all down. With this the way it is, it looks as though he was trying to get someone to fight him and thus “give him a reason.”
No matter how much CM sucks, and I’m not denying that it sucks (I really don’t know 100% either way and really don’t care either way), the cop still cannot do something to that one biker just because of that. Legally he doesn’t have the authority, and morally he shouldn’t be knocking people into concrete.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Esthier:
If Jews had resorted to “terrorism” in WWII (maybe targeting the military but not being overly concerned about the general population that is by and large supporting that military), would it be justified if it was determined to be the most effective resistance? I think it would have been.
“Saus”, an Israeli poster on this blog, has told me there are no civilians in Israel, since all citizens serve in the IDF. I asked him how it is possible for the Palestinians to be terrorists if there are no civilians, and he did not answer. Do you have an answer?
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 3:02 PM
I think that’s a pretty big distinction. Those who I would define as terrorists are those who don’t even bother targeting the military, because they know they will be able to wreck more damage by targeting civilians.
Well, I would disagree with that poster. Even if everyone enlists, I wouldn’t call them all soldiers all of the time. Even Batman can be Bruce Wayne.
If a soldier comes home and is attacked while out of uniform, would you consider that attacker as having attacked the military?
I think it becomes terrorism when the target is your home, your schools or your hospitals.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 3:11 PM
Only to reasonable people. Critical Massholes regard someone walking or carrying a bike to be morally superior to mere pedestrians.
Oh, and police officers walking in the street are pedestrians as well.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 3:12 PM
All the sheep hate the sheep dog…until night comes then they rely on him to protect them…come the morning, they hate the sheep dog. The dog keeps them in line, nips at their heels, and at times makes them stay with the flock, by force…they hate the dog, until the wolf comes along.
I don’t know what else to say, a rookie made a rookies error, and the sheep were running amok…I don’t like bullies taking over the street, and if one gets injured, then don’t be part of the mob. You can’t terrorize people as a mob, and then complain that one of the mob is injured…well you can, but then it is just an “isolated” incident for some, for others he was part of an unruly, terrorizing mob.
We just disagree, different philosophy; I think order is everyones responsibility, you think a “perfect” cop should maintain it.
When someone steps out of line, he should pay the consequences…you think he is free do do whatever.
We both agree the cop was out of line…you want punishment, I want a slap on the wrist and more training…just different view.
right2bright on July 30, 2008 at 3:16 PM
I acknowledged that and added that he was jaywalking.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 3:16 PM
No, that’s not what I think.
Never said that either and also don’t agree with that.
A slap on the wrist is also punishment.
And just to be clear, I don’t hate cops. Never said I did. Then again, I never said half of the things you’re claiming I said.
I’ve only said that this cop was wrong. You agree but apparently want to argue anyway.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Esthier:
Hamas suicide bombers often target the military, or off duty military. Those attacks don’t get as much press as the pizza parlor ones. About one-third of Hamas victims have been active duty military. So what if the Jews resisted in a way such that they killed one third military and two thirds civilians. Would this be justified?
That’s certainly Israel’s position. They’ll drop a 2,000 pound bomb on an apartment building because a Hamas member is there in his home with his family surrounded by civilians. Is that terrorism? Is firebombing Dresden or nuking Hiroshima terrorism? Were they targeting only soldiers in uniform?
Shall I drag out the stats about how many homes, schools, and hospitals were bombed in Lebanon two years ago, or by the US in Yugoslavia 10 years ago? I know, there were terrorists hiding there.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 3:20 PM
Estheir:
Even with America in the role of oppressor, and Muslims in the role of the oppressed, did you realize that polls show that the percentage of Americans that think terrorism can be justified is higher than people in Muslim countries?
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 3:29 PM
You’re obviously misrepresenting what Saus said. Any Israeli knows that not all citizens serve in the IDF. Arab citizens of Israel are exempt from the draft or national service equivalents (though the Druze and Beduin communities have specifically asked to serve and indeed serve in the IDF), and most of the strictly religious Jews, except for religious Zionists, get draft exemptions. Religious Jewish women can also get exemptions, though some do national service in hospitals and the like. Those who have served in the IDF must usually do reserve duty. It used to be till age 55 but it’s been lowered to 42 or 45.
Of course by your twisted logic, it’s okay for Palestinians to attack Jewish children in Israel because they will become soldiers eventually.
But then, by your reasoning, if a 12 year old Palestinian marches in a parade with a kalishnikov or rpg, he’s fair game.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 3:32 PM
perhaps, but nowhere near as fun to say or type.
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 3:33 PM
But is that their primary goal? Of course those attacks don’t get as much press as pizza parlor attacks. The latter is simply more newsworthy for the same reasons terrorist groups target them.
Again, would they be targeting civilians or is this just a case where they’d not worry too much about it?
If I’m fighting for survival, but I do so by killing those who have done me no harm in order to convince the government of those people that killing me is bad, then yeah, I’m a terrorist.
But, if I’m only targeting those who intend to kill me, doing whatever I can to minimize innocents caught in the crossfire (even if “whatever I can” means very little), then, no, I wouldn’t think so.
That’s kinda half the story, isn’t it. I don’t know what specific bombings you’re talking about, but I know there have been times bombs were used for that purpose only because the people targeted were lobbing bombs from a civilian area.
Is it really a civilian area if that’s where you’re launching all of your attacks? What makes a military base a military base? Isn’t it the fact that soldiers and weapons are kept there? If a group moves theirs somewhere else, I think a reasonable assumption can be made that they’ve now made that area a military base.
You’re getting into too much for this discussion. Those two alone can have their own topic with plenty of back and forth debate.
However, the question concerned whether or not the posters here could be terrorists. Obviously even if we could, we wouldn’t be able to nuke or firebomb anything.
OK, without responding (I will later), what would you propose a military do when a group of combatants hides among civilians? What’s the better alternative to harming civilians?
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 3:38 PM
rokemronnie:
Sorry. I’ll quote him directly:
“Everyone here is an IDF soldier.”
As I said on the linked thread, I am talking about those over 17 years old.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 3:38 PM
I’m fairly certain that this will be the major contribution our time has for classical music. In the US the best selling classical music is associated with films. Really the most recognizable. The theme to Star Wars (Williams is a hopeless Wagnerian, uses leitmotif more than Wagner himself) will be our Beethoven’s 5th. The score to braveheart our Strauss’ Scottish dances, And our Lord of the rings their “Das ring der N”
It’s not necessarily a bad thing. But that’s where the money was, so those worth hearing went there. I actually think some Gorgeous music comes out of movies. The Piano and Legends of the Fall in particular.
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 3:38 PM
He was there in his authority as a police officer so legally it’s not jaywalking. In most states, POs in the performance of their duties are generally exempt from traffic laws and this officer was on duty doing traffic/crowd control. Otherwise an officer could not speed to catch a fleeing felon. Of course the exemption doesn’t allow them to casually run a red light on their way to the donut shop.
And yes, many if not most police officers casually abuse the “police officer in the performance of my duty” excuse for all sorts of law breaking.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 3:40 PM
Can’t say I have a lot of faith in polls, especially if what you say is true as I’ve seen several that would contradict that.
Even still, I’m not sure what you expect me to say about that. As far as I can see, it just shows how well off we are that we can be so forgiving.
Were we in the middle of a war on our own soil or were terrorist attacks in the US more common or had the 9/11 attack been what it could have been (50,000 possible in each tower), those polls would likely be different. We’re so sheltered from tragedy that I don’t think we take it seriously.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 3:42 PM
Just to be clear, I do hate cops, but I think this one wasn’t out of line.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 3:43 PM
I was mostly joking. Though, had the cop stayed where he was, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
I’ve never seen it not work that way (sorry for the double negative).
And even off duty cops and wives of cops get “favors” from those on duty when it comes to breaking the law either by speeding or whatever.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 3:45 PM
You lay down with dogs, you wake up with fleas. If the neighbors are so concerned, let them force the Hamas official and his weapons out of their apartment building.
Is firebombing Dresden or nuking Hiroshima terrorism?
Ah, the moral equivalency trump cards, Dresden and Hiroshima. How come you never talk about the 250,000 Chinese killed by the Japanese testing cholera and other biological weapons?
Did President Truman have a greater obligation to the Japanese civilians who supported their regime (and were being trained in homeland defense) than to the American parents of US soldiers and marines who’d be at risk in an invasion of the home island?
Were they targeting only soldiers in uniform?
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 3:49 PM
Esthier:
No, that’s all of it. Israel didn’t even make the claim that anyone was launching bombs from the apartment building. It was simply a targeting killing which killed the target plus 14 civilians. Why is it OK for Israel to kill 14 civilians and one combatant, but Hamas cannot kill military to civilians in a 1:2 ratio? In the Lebanon war, Israel killed about 200 combatants and 1,000 civilians. Hezbollah killed 120 Israeli soldiers and a few dozen civilians. If Israel is targeting combatants and Hezbollah is targeting civilians, then why is Israel so good at killing civilians, and why is Hezbollah so bad at it?
Esthier, the whole line about hiding among civlians is propaganda. Human rights groups have looked into this and found absolutely no evidence for it. If you knew the first thing about how rebel groups operate and gain support, it would be painfully obvious why this in complete BS. Hezbollah, for example, has tremendous support in Lebanon. During the war, their support even amongst Sunni and Christians was very high. Their support in the south was astronomical. If it weren’t they would not survive a week, much less beat the crap out of one of the best militaries in the world. Do you really believe the public would support a group that is launching missiles from their houses and drawing enemy fire to their homes? It would be insane for a population to support a group that does this. You know why their support is so high? Because they do not do this.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 3:54 PM
You misrepresent him again by taking his comments out of context. He was discussing anti-war Israelis and troofer Israelis and saying that just because someone was in the IDF and is anti-war isn’t given special credibility because of their army service, because army service in Israel is very widespread.
Israel’s “universal” conscription is not quite so universal.
If you’re going to be pedantic and insist that Saus meant “everyone” literally, I hope someone shoots your big toe off when you complain that your feet are killing you.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 3:56 PM
The police union in Montcalm, NJ openly said that in the next contract they wanted “professional courtesy” for family members of cops who get pulled over for traffic violations.
The only time you ever hear of an off duty cop arrested for DUI is when they kill someone. Otherwise they get a ride home.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 4:00 PM
Isn’t Hezbollah really good at getting civilians to turn into shields? Without discussing specific bombings, this can be a little tricky, but I remember one highly publicized bombing where a lot of dead babies were paraded in front of cameras to make the point you’re making. Only it later came out that the building took 8 hours to collapse, and rescue operations didn’t start until the camera crews were already there.
By wearing plain clothes (as opposed to uniforms) and hiding in civilian areas, the combatants are breaking the laws we have regarding war. War tends to make things like laws seem stupid, but if they’re not obeying those laws, I don’t see how they deserve the protection those laws bring.
Who am I to believe? Them or my lying eyes? I saw the videos of rockets being launched from homes and apartment buildings firsthand.
For really good propaganda, just check out Pollywood.
Correlation doesn’t prove causation.
The people over there are fed a lot of false information from a very young age. There are plenty of reasons why they might support terrorism.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 4:03 PM
That makes me sick.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 4:05 PM
Actually they’re piss poor at it. The IAF flew over 7000 sorties in the Lebanon war. Though I dispute that there were 1000 “civilians” killed, I’ll use that figure for the sake of discussion.
Based on those figures, the IAF had to fly 7 sorties to kill just one Lebanese civilian. That’s pretty poor shooting.
The real reason for civilian deaths on the Arab side is that Hamas and Hezb’allah locate their fighters and armaments in the middle of civilians.
Because the Israelis have bomb shelters in almost every building and take civil defense seriously. Additionally, Hezb’allah is inept, using unguided missiles. While it’s a war crime to target civilian areas with unguided missiles, the fact that they are unguided means that they often miss the target.
I suppose if someone shot at your wife and missed, they didn’t do anything wrong.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 4:06 PM
Right, a death culture that raises children to be suicide bombers is going to strongly object to hiding fighters amidst a supportive civilian population.
Shorter version of Dave742: Arabs good, Jews bad.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 4:09 PM
I certainly wouldn’t go that far, but, dave, I do wonder a few things. You seem to support the Palestinians. Why is it OK for them to kill civilians but not OK for the Jews to do it? Are you just running the numbers and going with the underdog?
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Esthier:
According to domestic law, you are responsible for the forseeable consequences of your actions. What counts is what a reasonable person would expect the result of their actions to be. Who is “targeted” makes no difference, legally, and, more important, morally. What counts is results. A cop cannot legally or morally shoot at a criminal in a crowd, because you can expect civilians to be killed as a result. It doesn’t matter that he is aiming at the criminal. Israel dropping a two ton bomb on an apartment building is the same. It doesn’t matter that they are targeting a “combatant” (who, by the way, was not actively fighting, and is the equivalent of an IDF soldier at home visiting his family). What matters is what is the expected result of bombing an apartment building. You can expect to kill lots of civilians, and that’s what happened. When you look at results, Hamas kills civilians to military in a 2:1 ratio. Israel, in the Lebanon war, killed in about a 5:1 ratio. When you level entire city blocks and drop millions of cluster bomblets, you can expect to kill many more civilians than combatants, and that’s what happened. Once again, I don’t need to hear your hiding amongst civilians BS. The only group that has been clearly shown to use human shields is Israel.
If you think targeting is all that matters, and if civilians get in the way its just an issue of “You lay down with dogs, you wake up with fleas,” then what if Al Qaeda said that they were targeting the headquarters of Raytheon, one of the largest military supplier for the US, which was located in the World Trade Towers. Is the attack then justified? They were targeting a military headquarters. Certiainly these type of targets were bombed by the Allies in WWII. The civilian deaths were “collateral.”
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Estheir:
I just lost a post, and and am not going to retype. I started to address you on this subject because I judged you earler as more rational compared to others here. I now see little difference between you and Rocky. I give up. USrael is good. Muslims are evil.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 4:31 PM
During the Lebanon War, a reporter from a mainstream media outlet interviewed a Hezb’allah fighter in his apartment. He proudly showed off his weapons cache. Some was stored in a kitchen closet, some was hidden under a crib.
IDF soldiers don’t store RPGs at home. At most they have their service weapon.
Sometimes unarmed Israeli soldiers are attacked at roadside waiting to hitchhike home. Are they fair game? Was the Centralia Massacre a legitimate military operation or a war crime?
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 4:57 PM
Honestly, this is probably too complex of a discussion to have over the Internet. Over drinks and good music maybe.
Oh, well. I’ll try anyway.
Let me state first off that I’m not making necessarily saying that all attacks on militaries are justified either. In the original context, you’re talking about Jews during the Holocaust, a group which was specifically targeted to be wiped off the planet. Those who didn’t run or hide (and even some who did) were slaughtered.
That’s an entirely different concept unless you’re going to say that Al Qaeda was being slaughtered by the US and that attack was the only way to stop it.
I know. My mother’s a lawyer, and I helped her study for the bar.
However, war is different, and it’s also different when you’re fighting a war as a civilian population or as a military.
It’s these variables that make answering your yes or no questions difficult if not impossible.
That isn’t entirely true. If you target someone but don’t actually kill that person, you can still be found in violation of the law, and in violation of certain morals.
There is a lot of gray here. I don’t deny that. But I have an easier time understanding the cause of the side that would rather give up military information through radio broadcasts and pamphlets than the side that wants to kills as many civilians as it can.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 4:57 PM
Give me a break, dave. I never said as much. I’ve been completely honest here and have been trying to have a discussion with you.
You’ve made it difficult by continuing to broaden the discussion, but I never once said what you’re claiming.
I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from, but I honestly don’t get it.
Give up if you want. You’ve already got a few stories to make fun of us “psychos” with so you and your wife can have something to discuss at dinner.
For some reason I’d started to think you would actually have a meaningful dialog.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 5:01 PM
By the way, your links are really unconvincing.
If true, and I’m not saying they’re not, then they’re closer to the case that started this thread rather than what Hezbollah has been accused of doing in regards to using human shields.
If true, it’s certainly horrible (don’t misunderstand me as saying otherwise), but in that case, the “shields” were being used against rocks which were being thrown at soldiers who were firing back with plastic bullets.
It would be like our cops here trying to stop a riot and hiding behind civilians. It’s bad, and the cops would hopefully at least lose their jobs if not more, but I don’t see how you can compare it to what that group has been accused of doing, which, if true, has led to many civilian deaths rather than injuries.
I’m not at all denying that Israel has it’s own issues. This isn’t a black and white issue, where Israel is always right and Hezbollah always wrong. Even Hitler made his contributions to society.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 5:19 PM
You messed up AP…the lead in photo should have been a Porter House steak…Not the usual T-Bone and certainly not a frame from the staged video. Finally, I can’t believe this thread is still running….oh wait…I know …it was a way to feret out the libs…ahhh…silly me…way to go dude…I apologize. ‘)
jerrytbg on July 30, 2008 at 5:23 PM
staged? Prove it
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 5:33 PM
oh geeze…you’re tagged…well… if you’re a member of cm then …you know…didn’t you get the memo? lol!!!
jerrytbg on July 30, 2008 at 5:40 PM
please repeat in way I can understand
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 5:52 PM
lol!
jerrytbg on July 30, 2008 at 5:56 PM
WTF do you mean by “tagged”?
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 5:59 PM
Just for the fun of it I looked at various definitions of “tagged” in the Ms Word dictionary…
Take your pick…
jerrytbg on July 30, 2008 at 6:04 PM
Esthier:
God damn why did I think you have any sense. This issue is so “true” that Israel had to make a law to stop the practice, which then continued on anyway. Funny that Israel would make a law to stop a practice that still had not been verified. The practice has resulted in Palestinians being shot, not just rocks. You are as pathetic as the rest. Last time I get fooled.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 6:16 PM
So I’m tagged because I believe the video is not staged. Because I (who happen to live in NYC)Have seen this on my local news, local papers and read/seen/heard comments from other police officers about this clip.
Who would the staging of this video benefit? Critical Mass are not anti police. CM relies on the NYPD all the time, and as far as I can tll, they have a decent working relationship. Would it benefit the cop who is currently without his badge? I’m just interested to hear the vast left wing conspiracy that must have come together in the staging of this video…Did Michael Moore film it? Oliver Stone maybe?
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 6:27 PM
I said that I wasn’t saying it’s not true.
You get heated over the smallest things. How can you ever have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you?
You expect people to be civil to you and treat your responses as intellectual greatness after calling everyone here psychopaths. I don’t understand where the hell the stick up your @ss came from, but I can’t say I really care.
People like you can’t handle differing opinions and thus don’t stay here long anyway.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 6:28 PM
I stand by my remarks that the “videotog” knew there was going to be a confrontation…
Why else would he/she have panned to cover the exact location of the take down?
And why did that video show up ,(as I’ve been told), on cm’s website within minutes?
I’d love to carry this exchange on and maybe later….
But I have a dinner date with a grateful owner and crew for a great overnight sail that lasted over 22 hrs. I’ll check back later or maybe tomorrow if this amaZing thread still exists.
jerrytbg on July 30, 2008 at 6:28 PM
None of the threads cease to exist. They just go off of the front page.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 6:31 PM
very nice, enjoy!!!
beefytee on July 30, 2008 at 6:33 PM
True… I am now being punched in the arm for holding up our depature…I got to go…
jerrytbg on July 30, 2008 at 6:34 PM
And for the record, it’s painfully obvious that the only reason you ever thought I was even remotely intelligent is because I was agreeing with you.
I was right and “insightful” then, cause I was saying the same things you were, but once I disagreed with you, I was just like “them.”
That happens here all the time as well. Just as people immediately side with cops and soldiers, they also tend to label anyone who disagrees with their world view on any given subject as a liberal.
That’s one of the many reasons a utopia without brainwashing would fail the moment it’s tried. Not even like-minded people can accept differing opinions without getting pissy and sometimes downright maniacal.
And now I’ve just described you as one of “them”/us, insulting as many people as possible in the process. Awesome.
Esthier on July 30, 2008 at 6:37 PM
Esthier:
I would agree with this if it was true. People have disagreed with me before (and I have been posting for a number a years) on these blogs and have actually brought up issues that have made me pause. Most times these issues that get brought up result in me researching the subject further and I find out the people were full of crap anyway, but at least they made me think. You made a comment that actually probed something a little deeper than the usual inane comment found here, and I thought that it signified a glimmer of real thought. But in the end you end up being worse than the rest. I have brought up the issue of Israel using human shields before a dozen times. None of the sociopaths on this site ever responded, because they recognize that this issue is incontroversial, given the Israeli governments admission of the problem. You, however, still must attribute doubt to the subject and try to minimize it “if” it is really true. You can’t accept something that goes against your worldview even when the Israeli government admits it. And of course you know more about Dimeola’s fanbase than he himself does. I do thank you, though. You have provided me with discussion material.
Maybe its your age. I was a complete imbecile when I was your age. Maybe in thirty years you’ll be talking like me.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 8:51 PM
Esthier:
Dozens of people on this thread had the same opinion about the cop as I had, and it makes no difference to me. I have talked for hours with people I disagree with and loved the experience, because they had true insight into issues that taught me something. You had an insight into human behavior and I recognized that, not the fact that you agreed with me. In contrast, most people’s analysis of myself on this site is that I’m a 20-year-old in my parents basement smoking pot, which couldn’t be further from the truth. Anyway, so far whatever insights you might have are crtainly not intospective.
dave742 on July 30, 2008 at 9:18 PM
FWIW, I did a 30 mile ride with a bike club today. There were about 50 riders. I did an informal survey. Nobody would unequivocally support Critical Mass. The general consensus was that Critical Mass makes things more dangerous for regular riders.
rokemronnie on July 30, 2008 at 10:42 PM
Bullshit. I said “if” cause all your sources were first hand accounts from the victims. Give me a similar story about Hezbollah, and I’ll say the same (both times adding the qualifier that I’m not saying it’s not true). That’s just how I am.
I never said that. Though where someone spends his time and money is usually an indication of how he feels himself.
I conceded a few of your points once I better understood what you were saying, but you can’t even admit that someone who can get thousands of people to see him (by your own words at least 2,000 if I remember correctly) isn’t quite as unappreciated as you were claiming.
Sure, people in other countries may appreciate him more, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t appreciated here.
Which was my only point, not to start some insipid argument with you about the fan base of an artist I’d never heard of before.
No offense to anyone over 50 here, but in 30 years I plan on having something better to do than discuss politics in an online forum. As the saying goes, it’s like running in the special Olympics.
I really don’t believe you. The second I disagreed with you on something you jumped on me as though I’d tried to kill your first born.
I, on the other hand, actually do enjoy talking to people who disagree with me. It’s how I fell in love with my husband. We were polar opposites, and while we’ve now come to agree on a few issues, we still are. In fact, most of my friends disagree with me. Somehow I deal with it without calling them psychos and treating them with respect. I can’t imagine that in 30 years I’d want to stoop to your level and do otherwise.
You tend to get the responses from people that you expect, especially when you treat them that way.
Why would I share my introspective thoughts with strangers, let alone a one like you who came in insulting everyone?
That’s a problem with people as they get older though. They tend to think in narcissistic terms. Even though you came in here, every bit the ass, insulting anyone who would bother reading this many pages in, you still expected people to treat your posts thoughtfully, even when you were being careless in writing them.
And in the end, you expect us to learn something from our encounter with you.
No, I don’t think you’re a kid in a basement. I believe you when you say you’re old enough to be my father. You fit right in with every negative stereotype said of that generation. It’s all about you.
Esthier on July 31, 2008 at 9:34 AM
And seriously, you’ve never heard of Vivaldi?
You’ve never heard of the man who composed The Four Seasons, yet you feel compelled to complain about Americans not appreciating talent?
I couldn’t make that up if I tried.
Esthier on July 31, 2008 at 9:42 AM
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