Gallup: Only two percent of conservatives don’t believe in a higher power
posted at 2:51 pm on July 28, 2008 by Allahpundit
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The number’s even smaller when you remember that 21% of “atheists” believe in God. The few, the proud, the heretics:
Gallup decided to present the data in video format for some reason so you’ll have to sit through two minutes to see how the numbers by party identification compare. I never know what to make of the fact that I belong to such a tiny minority within my own side; there’s no reason I can think of why faith should be some essential part of conservatism and plenty of reason why it shouldn’t, i.e. cynicism about human nature should correlate to some degree with a more general skepticism, but 50 150 million right-wing believers can’t be wrong. (Actually, they can!)
Anyone want to try explaining this?
It’s unclear how they’re dividing “East” from “South” so I can only guess that the entire coast is being placed in the former category, which will drag the number of believers upwards as you cross the Mason-Dixon line. If not, then that is one indigo-blue bloc the Dems have got going from Washington down to the southern tip of Cali. WaPo looks at the numbers and sees doom for the GOP out west in the decades ahead if those numbers continue, but we’re already doomed in the coastal states. The question really is Arizona and New Mexico. Given the size of the very Catholic Latino populations there, are we really in that much trouble? Er, yeah — but not because of religion.
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Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 3:58 PM
You are correct that the Bible has a lot of contradictions, that is another big part of the reason that it is insulting to think it “God’s” word.
But then again many complex ideologies have dual messages. I guess what you are saying is that people shalt be docile in certain cases and other times where enlightened guardians have to eliminate perceived threats?
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 4:08 PM
well we know he thinks illegal aliens are God’s children…
guess the rest of us who won’t do his yard work for slave wages are spawns of satan…
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Gaurav,
The term “higher power” is intended as a generic, non-sectarian way to mention God without offending anyone. In truth, it could refer to a totally impersonal “Force” such as in Star Wars.
Among the founders of the American republic, God (for the most part) meant the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit: the God of Christianity.
I hope this is helpful.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:09 PM
Were those who admitted they don’t know the answers — I know I don’t know — automatically included in the believe in higher power category? Militant athiests are giving Jehovah’s Witnesses a run for their money these days.
I’m sure I don’t preach the gospel of global warming (which isn’t warming) or anti-Christianity enough to make our transnational progressive overlords happy.
Beagle on July 28, 2008 at 4:09 PM
only to those with a very superficial understanding of the Bible.
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 4:10 PM
I wasn’t saying that the Bible has contradictions, but that you are an ignoramus. Nice try.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Don’t SEEM stupid.
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Shirley McLaine believes in the silicone in the trees. That’s where the oompa comes out.
It’s either that are you can just be your own god, that’s pretty easy. Penn and Teller probably have a do it yourself home self worship kit.
kirkill on July 28, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Thanks Akzed.
Reg. America’s founding fathers, weren’t some of them deists, with the idea that the deity after creating the universe, and setting the rules for its transformation left it to itself.
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 4:13 PM
Upon reading all of the comments, I have a question: What is the difference between little ‘a’ atheists and big ‘A’ Atheists? I think I know, but I would appreciate a bit of clarification.
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 4:15 PM
Gaurav,
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” -Congress of the United States of America.
“While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support.” -George Washington, “Father of Our Country” (The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), Vol. XXX, p. 432 n., from his address to the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church in North America, October 9, 1789.)
“The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations.” -George Washington’s letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XII (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), p. 343.
“Direct my thoughts, words and work, wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the lamb, and purge my heart by thy Holy Spirit, from the dross of my natural corruption, that I may with more freedom of mind and liberty of will serve thee, the everlasting God, in righteousness and holiness this day, and all the days of my life. Increase my faith in the sweet promises of the gospel; give me repentance from dead works; pardon my wanderings, and direct my thoughts unto thyself, the God of my salvation.” -George Washington, non-Deist Father of our Country, Prayer for Monday Mornings.
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of man and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?
“And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?” -George Washington (Address of George Washington, President of the United States . . . Preparatory to His Declination (Baltimore: George and Henry S. Keatinge), pp. 22-23. In his Farewell Address to the United States in 1796.)
“[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, an oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people.” -George Washington (The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1939), Vol. XXIX, p. 410. In a letter to Marquis De Lafayette, February 7, 1788.)
“Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.” -Article III of the Northwest Ordinance (An Ordinance for the Government of the Territory of the United States, North-West of the River Ohio), enacted under the Articles of Confederation July 13th, 1787, and re-enacted under the Constitution on August 7, 1789.
“Laus Deo,” Latin for “Praise God.” -Inscribed on the eastern face of the apex of the Washington Monument in Washington, D.C., so placed as to be the first thing illuminated at sunrise in our nation’s capitol.
“Holiness unto the Lord,” Exodus 28:36. “Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not; for such is the Kingdom of God,” St. Luke 18:16. “Search the Scriptures,” St. John 5:39. -Inscribed on the starircase walls inside the Washington Monument, Washington, D.C.
“Proclaim Liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof,” Leviticus 25:10. -Inscribed on the Libert Bell.
“In God we Trust.” -The official motto of the United States of America. It is found on the wall in the well of the U.S. Congress behind the seat of the Speaker of the House. It is also found in your wallet.
“Give up money, give up fame, give up science, give the earth itself and all it contains rather than do an immoral act. And never suppose that in any possible situation, or under any circumstances, it is best for you to do a dishonorable thing, however slightly so it may appear to you. Whenever you are to do a thing, though it can never be known but to yourself, ask yourself how you would act were all the world looking at you, and act accordingly. Encourage all your virtuous dispositions, and exercise them whenever an opportunity arises, being assured that they will gain strength by exercise, as a limb of the body does, and that exercise will make them habitual. From the practice of the purest virtue, you may be assured you will derive the most sublime comforts in every moment of life, and in the moment of death.” -Thomas Jefferson, Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Third President of the United States (The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D.C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1903), Vol. 5, pp. 82-83, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr on August 19, 1785.)
“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of mankind.” -Thomas Jefferson (The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383.)
“I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosophers.” -Thomas Jefferson (The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. X, pp. 376-377. In a letter to Edward Dowse on April 19, 1803.)
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. Commerce between master and slave is despotism. Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Establish a law for educating the common people. This it is the business of the state and on a general plan.” -The Jefferson Memorial, Washington, D.C.
“Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens . . . are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion . . . No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively.” -The Jefferson Memorial, Washington, D.C.
“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” -John Jay, First Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and co-author of the Federalist Papers, letter to Jedidiah Morse, 28 Feb 1797.
“The Americans are the first people whom Heaven has favored with an opportunity of deliberating upon and choosing the forms of government under which they should live.” -John Jay (The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed. (New York: G.P. Putnams Sons, 1890), Vol. I, p. 161.)
“What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with thy God,” Micah 6:8. “The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth His handywork,” Psalm 19:1. “The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not,” St. John 1:5. “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and withall thy getting, get understanding,” Proverbs 4:7. -On the walls of the Library of Congress, Washington, D.C.
“One God, one Law, one element, and faroff Divine event to which the whole creation moves.” -Alfred Lord Tennyson, in the rotunda of the Library of Congress.
“The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits,” 2 St. Timothy 2:6. -Inscribed on the front of the Department of Agriculture, Washington, D.C.
“The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.” -Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence (Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), p. 8.)
“We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism.” -Benjamin Rush (Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Printed by Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), pp. 93-94.)
“By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects. . . . It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published. . . . All systems of religion, morals, and government not founded upon it [the Bible] must perish, and how consoling the thought, it will not only survive the wreck of these systems but the world itself. ‘The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.’ [Matthew 1:18]” -Benjamin Rush (Letters of Benjamin Rush, L. H. Butterfield, editor (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1951), p. 936, to John Adams, January 23, 1807.)
“Remember that national crimes require national punishments, and without declaring what punishment awaits this evil, you may venture to assure them that it cannot pass with impunity, unless God shall cease to be just or merciful.” -Benjamin Rush (Benjamin Rush, An Address to the Inhabitants of the British Settlements in America Upon Slave-Keeping (Boston: John Boyles, 1773), p. 30.)
“The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it.” -John Marshall, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833, JSAC, p. 139. Marshall was Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1801-1835.
“The real object of the [First] Amendment was not to countenance, much less advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity by prostrating Christianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects.” -Joseph Story, Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court 1811-1845, founder of Harvard Law School, Commentaries on the Constitution, Vol. II, 1871 (1833).
“Christianity becomes not merely an auxiliary, but a guide, to the law of nature; establishing its conclusions, removing its doubts, and evaluating its precepts.” -Joseph Story, “The Value and Importance of Legal Studies,” a lecture delivered August 25, 1829 at his inauguration as Dane Professor of Law in Harvard University, cited in James McClellan, Joseph Story and the American Constitution (Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma, 1971), p. 66.
“[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.” -James McHenry, Signer of the Constitution (Bernard C. Steiner, One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810-1920 (Maryland Bible Society, 1921), p. 14.)
“No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country.” -Pennsylvania Supreme Court, 1824. Updegraph v. Commonwealth; 11 Serg. & R. 393, 406.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:16 PM
They were overwhelmingly plain ol’ Protestants. There were Puritans, too. As for Deists, the only confirmed is Thomas Paine, though people talk about Ben Franklin being a deist, too. Jefferson was an Unitarian, in the old sense of the word (that is, God, but Christ was not God). If I remember, of the important men of the revolutionary era, there were a handful of Roman Catholics, too.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 4:16 PM
And Anglicans.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:17 PM
And Charles Carroll of Carrollton was Roman Catholic.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 4:15 PMI think “weak” atheists are those whose position is that in absence of proof they can’t believe in God, whereas “strong” atheists profess that they are sure that there is no God.
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Wow, 2%. I’ve never felt so special before.
Clark1 on July 28, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Good question! I suspect that you’ll get a broad range of answers to that question. My personal response is that God in American discourse is interpreted a little more loosely than the Judeo-Christian version but since America and its culture is built mostly on these faith heritages there is some tendency to make the Judeo-Christian higher power God by default.
How loosely you want to interpret God really depends on your ideology. Many in our secular society have adopted a “many paths” theory where faith is essentially served up cafeteria style. You can say or do whatever you want and you still get into heaven. As a Christian, I believe that God is the only higher power. By simply making that statement, many will scream that I am intolerant. Some on this forum go out of their way to attack Christians and Christianity for its certitude about certain basic values. I only bring this up to point out that while there is a place in American discourse for multiple faiths, the conversation often is less than multi-theistic.
highhopes on July 28, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Thanks Akzed & emailnuevo,
Somehow I thought that deism was popular during late 18th century. Were there any Quakers, or any atheists ?
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:16 PM
“Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.”
That one is my favorite. There happens to be an inscription on a government building here in DC that reads “the law is the will of mankind” and this quote reminded me of that.
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 4:23 PM
Illegals are God’s children as are the rest of us but that doesn’t give them any more right to be here illegally than if they were not. What McCain is really doing is setting up a different spin on the what would Jesus drive bit. Suggesting that Christ is in favor of the McCain/Kennedy citizenship giveaway. It really disgusts me when a man that point blank refuses to talk about faith issues trots out proclamations about what Christ would do. We don’t even know that McCain is a Christian.
highhopes on July 28, 2008 at 4:23 PM
I have observed that here. Based on my observation I have come to a tentative conclusion (apologies if I cause any offense).
Western atheism in its passion and temperaments emulates western faith.
In comparision east is mellow wrt belief and unbelief.
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 4:25 PM
William Penn was a Quaker. Ben Franklin was a sort of proto-Mormon, believing in many worlds with many gods, among which the righteous took their places as gods in the afterlife. There were no pure atheists among the founders that I am aware of.
Meaning, of course, that atheism is antithetical to Americanism since it was not represented in the minds and outlooks of the authors of our Constitution.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:25 PM
Okay, I thought the little/big a/A think might have been a different way of saying weak/strong. Little ‘a’ athiests should just be called nontheists. But that’s a debate I steer well clear of.
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 4:25 PM
Heaven knows Jesus never challenged the ways of the empowered elite of that time. Had he, he surely would have been crucified…
If you can’t understand why liberalism and atheism have a high correlation, perhaps you should look over your quoted statement and tell me in what manner it differs from what liberals THINK Christianity is versus what Christianity actually is.
The Apostles were imprisoned and half of them were crucified or stoned for their beliefs. The idea that Christianity teaches you should become a docile subservient tool of the state has no basis. How do you think you become a martyr? In modern times, its showing up with a rosary on a Muslim street corner.
That liberalism has infected some strains of Christianity is not surprising given its viral nature, but you and I both know that “social justice” is a front for big government.
BKennedy on July 28, 2008 at 4:26 PM
maybe to you, but I don’t think to Juan…
cynical politicians, and others, use Jesus to try and get their political desires met.
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 4:26 PM
From http://www.google.com:
Your search – “the law is the will of mankind” – did not match any documents.
Suggestions:
Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
Try different keywords.
Try more general keywords.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:26 PM
*thing, not think. Ugh, it’s hard to type with a cat on the keyboard.
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 4:27 PM
Do you have a reference for that alleged inscription, or are you, as an atheist, simply lying through your teeth with no fear of consequences for your lies?
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:27 PM
Well, you have to think about the Enlightenment, which happened at several different places simultaneously. The British enlightenment, which was the most influential on the US, produced most notably John Locke, who was a Christian. The French produced mostly atheism, which led to the French Revolution’s anti-clericalism.
Nonetheless, deism and atheism really had their heyday in the 18th century/19th century, you’re right. But as far as I know, no, there were no flat-out atheists among the Founding Fathers. There were some Quakers, I’m sure (I think of Pennsylvania, named for William Penn, a Quaker), but I simply don’t have the numbers on that one.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 4:29 PM
Just relax and enjoy the rarefied company within the narrow 2% band at the far-right of the bell-curve ;)
LimeyGeek on July 28, 2008 at 4:30 PM
I like when that atheists claim the founders were all atheists, and the US is totally secular, and then turn around and blame christians for slavery, and the treatment of the indians….
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 4:31 PM
That is an excellent and helpful observation, Gaurav.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:33 PM
Since you can be your own god, I don’t know why you wouldn’t.
kirkill on July 28, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Rewriting history, it’s not just for liberals anymore.
kirkill on July 28, 2008 at 4:35 PM
Yes I knew about William Penn. I have a lot of admiration for Quakers. IIRC Mahatma Gandhi also appreciated Quaker ethos.
BTW I didn’t know Jefferson was Unitarian, I thought he was deist along with Paine and Washington.
OK, as non-American it is hardly my place to suggest, but surely it is a tad too much to imply that atheist citizens are Un-american.
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 4:35 PM
Don’t forget that Thomas Jefferson also had some idiosyncratic views on Christianity. He even edited his own version of bible, the Jefferson Bible, excising the supernatural claims of Jesus’ life. The irony is that neither Penn, Franklin, or Jefferson would be acceptable candidates for public office by evangelical conservatives. They’d be too radical in their interpretations of Christianity.
RightOFLeft on July 28, 2008 at 4:37 PM
The founders were all atheists, the US is totally secular, and I blame Christians for slavery, treatment of the Indians, etc etc etc. /snark off
I personally don’t like when atheists do that, because it is untrue, and shows a patent disrespect for both history and the place that religion has in our culture. Just because some of us don’t believe doesn’t give us the right to rewrite history to our own liking, or to denigrate the accomplishments of religious people in our own past.
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 4:37 PM
Washington was not a Deist, as is evident by these two quotes (and many more).
“The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations.” -George Washington’s letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XII (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), p. 343.
“Direct my thoughts, words and work, wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the lamb, and purge my heart by thy Holy Spirit, from the dross of my natural corruption, that I may with more freedom of mind and liberty of will serve thee, the everlasting God, in righteousness and holiness this day, and all the days of my life. Increase my faith in the sweet promises of the gospel; give me repentance from dead works; pardon my wanderings, and direct my thoughts unto thyself, the God of my salvation.” -George Washington, non-Deist Father of our Country, Prayer for Monday Mornings.
Also, it is indeed unAmerican to be an atheist, because atheists are prone to hold views and advocate policies detrimental to the nation.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:39 PM
Don’t you get it? In his mind, his claim to utter ignorance regarding the subject of his criticism is what gives him Absolute Moral Authority on the subject.
It’s religious relativismm, and it works exactly the same way as moral relativism.
The only “sin” in the church of liberalism is that of hypocrisy. As self-congratulating hedonists, liberals are incapable of ever being wrong according to their own standards – because they don’t have any. Ergo people who have standards, but don’t adhere to them to them to the insane degree liberals think they should, are all evil. And liberals feel perfectly justified in acting with the moral authority of 16th-Century Quakers when a conservative gets a divorce, gets hooked on prescription medication or – Heaven forefend – turns out to be black, or homosexual… or anything else they decide we are supposed to hate.
Atheism is the exact same mindless anti-philosophical deconstructionism; just applied to theology instead of politics. Atheists assert Absolute Moral Authority by claiming they don’t HAVE any beliefs. This frees them up to criticize every “evil” act Christian has been single-handedly responsible for throughout all of recorded history while blythely ignoring the paltry hundreds of millions of murders committed by people who share (and rabidly enforce) their own beliefs within the past several decades. Because, you see, their beliefs aren’t “real” beliefs. And that (somehow, magically) makes everything they do OK.
Because, you see: the Soviets, Moaists, Nazis, Fascists, etc…. weren’t “real” Atheists.
Wait a minute. Why does that sound so gosh-darned familiar?
logis on July 28, 2008 at 4:40 PM
Does that include our host Shri AllahPundit :-P
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 4:42 PM
Nixon was a Quaker, Jefferson could certainly get elected if e.g. Reagan or Truman could, and Franklin was not a Christian in any sense so his interpretation of Christianity would be wholly unreliable. I would, however, vote for Poor Richard in a heartbeat if he were on a third-party ticket in November!
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:42 PM
I like being a goddess, but I warn you, there’s a lot of upkeep involved. Disposing of the sacrifices, striking down unbelievers, plagues, the day-to-day requirement of making sure the celestial bodies do not deviate from their individual orbits… it’s not just for anybody you know. Probably suitable for only about 2% or so…
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 4:42 PM
In regards to atheism being unAmerican: I take the George Washington view, which is that perhaps for a few dissenters, secularism and American morality can be ok; I mean to say that if there are a small number of dissenters, fine. But I think that morality is too big of a question for secularism to take on, and that a religious people are the backbone of the country.
I don’t think atheists are un-American or anything, just mistaken.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 4:44 PM
If I could vote for Ben Franklin, I could vote for AP. Hey, I think that John McCain holds certain positions that are unAmerican. That doesn’t mean he has to move to Cuba (and take AP with him).
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:45 PM
Faith in Jesus (not alla, buddah, higher power) is all that matters for eternal life. Don’t miss the ARK before it’s too late.
saved on July 28, 2008 at 4:47 PM
Of course Christianity has a reputation of a positive view of man…anything other than that is simply a gross misunderstanding.
MAN IS CREATED IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD!
We are sons of God, ransomed from death by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!
The reason why all men believe that God exists is because He does..from the vast expanses of the cosmos to the smallest particle in the nanosphere…there is God!
(yes I said ALL men believe God exists..bc even the atheist knows God exists..the better phrase to describe such people would be bitter/self deluding..admit it AP)
All men know God exists because they feel the lack of the fullness and yearn to experience the Theosis/Deification that is meant for us.
SaintOlaf on July 28, 2008 at 4:47 PM
Gotta go.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:47 PM
You didn’t answer the proper question. Man is in the image of God, so yes, imago dei = man is a wonderful creation of God.
Human nature, on the other hand, is, by Christian doctrine, horribly evil. If it were not so, there wouldn’t be a need for Christ in the first place.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 4:49 PM
I know you will take offense to this, but I really don’t mean to offend you about this statement and others.
It seems you have made a couple of statements (at least this, and Christians being docile, and turn the other cheek).
I can see where you would not have any use for religion if you believed what you wrote…however what you write has no basis of fact.
You may want to believe what you state, but you can’t back it up except with your feelings.
The contradictions in the bible are so minor, and none have any effect on belief. They are mainly grammatical errors, or spelling errors. Truly, if there were any “errors” they would be shouted from the hilltops by most every atheist alive.
So where does that leave you
If you have certain contradictions, name them and they will be answered. If you think “turn your other cheek” means allow your loved ones to be killed or your government to be over run, We can show you that your understanding is based on a false foundation.
I fear you have so many mis-conceptions about Christians, that you will take the tact of many. Dig in your heels, and not give in.
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 4:52 PM
Though a believer*, I have this crazy idea. Faith is like sex in that, while a individual may function properly without sex (or faith), the society as a whole must have sex (or faith) to flourish.
* Just to clarify, when I say believer, I don’t mean I am Christian.
I think I can understand your strong feelings, but again I can only request you to reconsider your opinion about atheists being unamerican. I am sure that unbelief in God hardly means disloyalty with America (which being unAmerican implies)
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 4:54 PM
On this point, we can agree.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 4:57 PM
It’s not a crazy idea, and as a nonbeliever, I feel exactly the same way.
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 4:58 PM
Yes, it’s almost like Pascal’s wager meta sized. I think it should be called Gaurav’s wager :-)
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 5:02 PM
Take Penn, then. I understand you’re ceding Franklin? Not a Christian in any sense? At least you admit it. And Jefferson? I’d love to hear James Dobson’s take on Jefferson’s version of Christianity.
The founding fathers had profound disagreements on religion (and politics). They still managed to work together to form our more perfect union (I love the nuance in this phrase. It’s a lost art in politics.) Would today’s Christians and non-Christians and quasi-Christians have as much success putting aside their religious differences to solve political problems? Not without Jefferson’s wall of separation.
RightOFLeft on July 28, 2008 at 5:04 PM
What Christian doctrine?
It is the Accuser/The Adversary that is evil..not man’s nature.
Total Depravity (like calvinism itself) is simply a false doctrine that SOME protestants believe..it is not Biblical or True.
Think about it: Is everything you do totally depraved? Or is some good with intentions and some with bad.
It’s just not how things work.
And calvinism of course misses so many thousands of Biblical references to man having a choice/free will..that there’s no point in even discussing that.
Irresistable Grace? That’s not Biblical either..God loves us and if He didn’t respect man’s decision to reject Him how could He love us? Love entails respect also.
SaintOlaf on July 28, 2008 at 5:06 PM
Heh. I’m not one for hedging my bets, though.
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 5:07 PM
And yet they fought a revolution without Jefferson’s precious “separation.” I don’t think we’ve faced a bigger problem.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 5:08 PM
Yes, man has free will. But remember that Eve chose to eat the apple, before the fall. Influenced, but if she was gloriously wonderfully etc.etc., she would have said no.
Also, the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. What the heck is Original Sin, then, or the need for redemption, if not that humans are by nature inherently evil?
It’s not a Calvinist thing, either. See Chesterton’s “What’s wrong with the world? I am” letter.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 5:10 PM
If more people knew you could be an atheist or pro-choice or tolerant of homosexuality and a conservative at the same time, the left wing would lose many people.
I’m a conservative mainly because I believe in small government and a hard ass national security and foreign policy. Religion and my lack of faith have nothing to do with it. Moreover, I respect people’s choice and belief in faith. Once I stopped being hostile toward religion due to my conclusion that I don’t vote based on the issues of abortion or homosexuality, being a liberal made no sense whatsoever.
Metro on July 28, 2008 at 5:11 PM
I have never met a non-believer that did not put themselves up as an “intellect”. They will substitute, maybe, their belief in God, with a belief in theory. It is almost like they have a need to fill their brains with ideas, so as not to take on the task of learning what God is. Which is a simple concept, not worthy of higher thought.
C.S. Lewis had a bit of that problem, he set out to prove to the world that Christianity was wrong. He decided to use his intellect to uncover the truth, the deception, and in doing so he did uncover the Truth.
You non-believers, best you don’t spend to much time studying, and keep arguing, other wise, like C.S. Lewis you may end with the Truth.
And no, atheists are not Un-American, they just have a hard time giving and would rather receive. So America is perfect for them, the most giving nation in the history of mankind (and thanks to the 10% of the 2% for helping).
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 5:13 PM
You think the revolution ended when the British sailed back to England?
RightOFLeft on July 28, 2008 at 5:14 PM
If I am not mistaken then what Saint is saying is Catholic position and what you are saying is Protestant position, isn’t it ?
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 5:16 PM
I was under the impression it was some weird, George-Macdonald -esque thing. I thought Catholics shared the “people are bad,” but sought to purify themselves with penance and such. But I’m definitely arguing from a protestant outlook.
The war for independence did; obviously we had some work to do afterwards. Nonetheless, my point is, they put down their differences and liberated a bunch of colonies.
Without the Danbury Baptists’ letter.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 5:21 PM
If by “intellect,” you mean intellectual, then let me introduce myself. My name is Anna, and I am neither a believer nor an intellectual.
I do agree that there are some atheists who are smug in their disbelief (Hitchens, Dawkins), but they give the rest of us a bad name.
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 5:22 PM
Romney’s speech would’ve been a little more entertaining if he’d put it those terms. Is faith here synonymous with religion? Religion is really good at organizing communities to solve the everyday problems of life, and atheism doesn’t offer a good alternative. In that respect, we need religion. We need an excuse to get together on Sunday and see how our neighbors are doing. The excuse doesn’t have to be faith, but it serves the purpose well enough, for now.
RightOFLeft on July 28, 2008 at 5:23 PM
Normally I hesitate in quoting Wiki, but they got this right. One of the reasons Luther is so well thought of. He had the same thoughts about science; let the scientists be scientists, and the theologians be theologians.
This is why atheists can live alongside men of faith (in America). Atheists will allow themselves to follow the rule of man, and people of faith follow God, but are still commanded to follow some of the rules of man.
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 5:28 PM
They’re drinking saltwater.
- The Cat
MirCat on July 28, 2008 at 5:29 PM
I had no idea about George MacDonald had to look up wiki.
I don’t have much idea about Catholic teachings but reading on Jindal controversy I got the impression that Calvin contended that man due to Original sin is corrupted and therefore only Bible (and not Catholic church) can redeem man.
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 5:29 PM
The war for independence did; obviously we had some work to do afterwards. Nonetheless, my point is, they put down their differences and liberated a bunch of colonies.
Without the Danbury Baptists’ letter.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 5:21 PM
George Washington hung a Mission Accomplished banner at the Continental Congress and that was that, eh? The military exigencies required unconditioned cooperation, but we still had the problem of how to govern ourselves once we won independence. Maybe the wall of separation wasn’t necessary to free the colonies from the British, but it’s necessary to keep us free.
RightOFLeft on July 28, 2008 at 5:34 PM
Yes we can be restored to our pre fallen state(and beyond) through the ransom paid by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and the fact that He has conquered death!
Why is the heart desperately wicked?
Because it fears death?
We know that when the Enemy plants an image in our minds..it is not a sin until we indulge in it, but it does not end there…the image and memory remains in our minds and we can bring it up again and again..but where did it come from originally?
That is a very good point and question..
Is original sin very clearly defined? Does it exist in the way that we assume that it is or is it different than that?
Could it be that it is because Adam created Seth in his image and that Adam is the old man and Christ is the new man?
I have to leave and deal with traffic/commute right now so I may not respond for a little while so you know.
SaintOlaf on July 28, 2008 at 5:35 PM
I think that life is a organizing force. How it organizes itself depends on the environment. Now human society can organize itself on genetic basis (which is another way to say that ethnic or tribal identity), but such basis has limited the cohesive power which weakens with increasing size of society. It is my hunch that any society with appreciable population can survive for an appreciable period of time only if there is some sort of faith to sustain it.
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 5:36 PM
Sure you are, just not smug about it. You are very intellectual. Top of your class. Don’t you ask if people make up languages for fun? That’s pretty much into the intellect thing. You are an intelligent woman. The point I was making is that the atheists I have run into (these blogs don’t count because we don’t know who anyone really is) fill their day pontificating (often lean towards libertarian). This is not a put down, some people of faith are even more smug, they even knock on your door to show you how wrong you are.
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 5:38 PM
Well, we agree that Christ is the nullification of the sinful ways of man. That’s the point. People suck, but Christ was perfect; since Christ died, you don’t have to suffer. The death of the only Perfection was for the preservation of the imperfect.
That letter was from 1802. We were a country before that. Don’t get me wrong, if we were constantly bickering over denominational issues we’d get nothing done. But I don’t think Jefferson’s principle was all that noteworthy.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 5:39 PM
Allowing SaintOlaf to post???
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 5:39 PM
I don’t know about Hitchens, but Dawkins to me seems intellectually dishonest.
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 5:41 PM
Correction, only God can redeem man. That is the reformation stance.
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 5:43 PM
P.S. Don’t ask me why the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.
Ask Jeremiah. And if we want to get into just one aspect of it, the greatest commands, according to Christ, were “Love the Lord thy God with all heart, soul, and mind,” and “love thy neighbor as thyself.” Inherently we can’t do those; we’re too selfish beings. So inherently, we’re huge transgressors from birth.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 5:45 PM
But isn’t Bible word of God according to reformation, in contrast to Catholicism which professes that both Bible and Church are to be taken together to find God.
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 5:46 PM
Could be. As long as the government stays out of it, I can live with it.
RightOFLeft on July 28, 2008 at 5:51 PM
You either flatter me, or we have different views on what an intellectual is. Or both.
I agree with you though, that there are smug people on both sides. I just happen to be more embarressed by the ones on my side of things.
As an aside, you mentioned missionaries. Every time they come to my neighborhood, they never knock on my door. I’m starting to think there’s a memo circulating about me or something.
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 5:55 PM
George Macdonald? C.S. Lewis’s mentor? You know Lewis had a very orthodox influenced theology…
The Orthodox church is the original church you know.
I don’t know if weird would be the word I would use to describe it.
SaintOlaf on July 28, 2008 at 5:55 PM
My favorite comment of the thread, hands down.
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 5:57 PM
I think it’s a mistake to think that because we don’t have a letter from earlier showing that exact formulation of the first amendment that the idea wasn’t being considered.
RightOFLeft on July 28, 2008 at 5:57 PM
<————- Part of the 2%
Kaptain Amerika on July 28, 2008 at 5:59 PM
Winner.
TheUnrepentantGeek on July 28, 2008 at 6:02 PM
Maybe it’s the lamb blood painted above your door…
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 6:04 PM
Sweetness. It’s going on my wishlist. I can’t believe I’ve never heard of it!
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 6:07 PM
Well, we both are, and it was not flattery
It’s okay to be smart, I think real intellectuals think of ideas in a different way. They don’t take different sides (as many think an open mind should) but they look at things differently. So maybe your more “different” then you think intellectual…I think intellectual making you different. And if you make sense of that, then I don’t know what you are…
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 6:09 PM
Thanks for the link to Luther on page one. That was a good one.
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 6:10 PM
That’s rust, I swear it. : )
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 6:15 PM
That was one of the battles. The bible is the word of God, but the “word” was in the hands of theologians from the beginning of time, and they interpreted it.
Luther knew that men will corrupt the word.
His main battle was “man is saved by the grace of God alone”. Regardless of what they do, what they read, what they say, the ultimate decider is God, not the bible, but God Himself. The bible is the recipe…the map.
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 6:16 PM
Was I right to assume it was Orthodox-ish? MacDonald shared a bit with them.
I trust God enough that I think he can effectively communicate his message to the average joe. He did it for me. I like the reverence in the old Catholic Church but I disagree on theology, naturally.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 6:20 PM
You wouldn’t have to back off like that if you took some time to understand Christianity before typing.
aikidoka on July 28, 2008 at 6:22 PM
BTW, you don’t have to be a believer to use the “map”. As a secular guide it ain’t bad.
Start your day with prayer…religion
Start your day with silence…secular
State your prayers, who you want to assist, what you want to accomplish…religion
State your thoughts, organize your day, who you want to assist, what you want to accomplish…secular
Be thankful to God for all that is given to you…religion
Be thankful for all you have…secular
See there is not much difference between how you want to live, and how people of faith want to live.
We put our trust in God, which we feel gives us the discernment to trust ourselves, secular puts their trust in themselves.
The bible makes a good secular map…not a bad idea to read It as a story or novel.
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 6:26 PM
Trusting God isn’t always the issue, sometimes it is trusting ourselves…or trusting ourselves when we shouldn’t. Most everyone makes decisions based on that moment that they are making the right decision.
And any church is a great church when God is present…
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 6:30 PM
Oh, I meant no disrespect or anything like that. The Church preserved the faith for 1500 years, roughly, before the Reformation came along.
I don’t think you can read the Bible as a secular individual without consciously choosing to reject parts of it. It’s just too in-your-face about the faith. Either you accept the doctrines or you start doing mental exercises, constantly “Hogwash!”ing yourself.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 6:37 PM
The First Amendment does not mandate or even suggest “separation of church and state”.
flenser on July 28, 2008 at 6:38 PM
When it’s warranted, but not exclusively. Secularists put trust in their family, their friends, their loved ones; even strangers if it’s necessary. I think the real difference between theism and atheism is that atheists don’t expect miracles to solve their problems. Neither do most theists, if they’re being honest.
You’re right, though, we’re not that different. Religion has a lot to offer. The experience of thousands of generations is codified in the ritual and metaphor of every religion; experience that shouldn’t be discarded without serious consideration of the deeper truths it might reveal.
RightOFLeft on July 28, 2008 at 6:41 PM
Being that I was born in Long Beach, CA, lived here all my life, and have friends from Seattle to San Diego, some who are mid-west transplants, and others who have traveled from western state to western state, I’m going to try and explain this.
There is a big 12th step phenomenon out here. It’s actually kind of faddish to be ‘recovering’ from something. Be it Hollywood influence or what-not, ’spirituality’ is more the key than actually believing in some deity.
There is a lot more Eastern cultural influence as well. Being that West Coasters are a little more exercise fanatical, yoga and palates sort of helped that out. You’ll find more Caucasians espousing Buddha as their love than Jesus, or even multi-deity loving Hinduism.
Then there are those who state they are atheist but do have some spiritual philosophy whether they’re okay to admit it or not. I think it’s the whole gay pride, abortion, influence coupled with anti-catholic sentiments. They just don’t want to be associated with it at all because they think they’re hypocritical or bigoted.
The rest are true scientific atheist and they promote themselves down on Venus Beach. But honestly, I think they are more of a minority than the poll indicates. Most of those claiming to be true atheist, based on my experience, are more akin to meta-physical believers than they’ll admit.
Sultry Beauty on July 28, 2008 at 6:42 PM
The first amendment is impossible to guarantee, in practice, without a wall of separation.
RightOFLeft on July 28, 2008 at 6:43 PM
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