Gallup: Only two percent of conservatives don’t believe in a higher power
posted at 2:51 pm on July 28, 2008 by Allahpundit
The number’s even smaller when you remember that 21% of “atheists” believe in God. The few, the proud, the heretics:
Gallup decided to present the data in video format for some reason so you’ll have to sit through two minutes to see how the numbers by party identification compare. I never know what to make of the fact that I belong to such a tiny minority within my own side; there’s no reason I can think of why faith should be some essential part of conservatism and plenty of reason why it shouldn’t, i.e. cynicism about human nature should correlate to some degree with a more general skepticism, but 50 150 million right-wing believers can’t be wrong. (Actually, they can!)
Anyone want to try explaining this?
It’s unclear how they’re dividing “East” from “South” so I can only guess that the entire coast is being placed in the former category, which will drag the number of believers upwards as you cross the Mason-Dixon line. If not, then that is one indigo-blue bloc the Dems have got going from Washington down to the southern tip of Cali. WaPo looks at the numbers and sees doom for the GOP out west in the decades ahead if those numbers continue, but we’re already doomed in the coastal states. The question really is Arizona and New Mexico. Given the size of the very Catholic Latino populations there, are we really in that much trouble? Er, yeah — but not because of religion.
Blowback
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Well this poll might be a little skewed, these were numbers from May 8-11. Obama started pushing stronger around the world after that, so all his followers might now change to “believe in a higher power”
Rbastid on July 28, 2008 at 2:55 PM
Which is why Barack Obama is a liberal. He doesn’t believe in a higher power, he IS the higher power, at least according to himself. Those who disagree are racist!
Steve Z on July 28, 2008 at 2:55 PM
Proof that right ideology equals right thinking. God Bless.
spacekicker on July 28, 2008 at 2:55 PM
AP, You’re not alone as you think.
Steve Jobs is always there for you.
IreneFingIrene on July 28, 2008 at 2:56 PM
As one who believes in God, this may be a dumb question, but if you believe in a ‘higher power’ but not God, what is this ‘higher power’?
Mork?
cntrlfrk on July 28, 2008 at 2:56 PM
What is the difference between believing in “God” and believing in a “higher power”? (apart from 38 – 80 percentage points, I mean).
Blaise on July 28, 2008 at 2:58 PM
About 4/10ths of that poll is skewed, about that many would consider the IRS a higher power.
Speakup on July 28, 2008 at 2:58 PM
think Gallup skewed the results of this poll too?
VTWaldrup on July 28, 2008 at 3:00 PM
All this proves is that your self-righteous sanctimony is the antithesis of the kind of humility Christ displayed.
Grow Fins on July 28, 2008 at 3:01 PM
The one think atheists hate is this type of statement…many people were non-believers at one time.
Your on a journey AP, you haven’t finished it yet…
But it must be discomforting to know that more people believe Elvis is alive, more people think the landing on the moon was falsified, more people think the earth is flat, more people have been “probed” by aliens, then think the same as you about a higher power.
There is still hope…maybe some alien will “probe” you. Then you won’t be so alone.
right2bright on July 28, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Did you see the new poll today from USA today showing McCain with a 4 point lead among likely voters. I’m SHOCKED. maybe people are coming to their senses about the worship last week of Obama.
Chudi on July 28, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Believe Again
ninjapirate on July 28, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Don’t Mess with Texas!
Ropera on July 28, 2008 at 3:04 PM
It doesn’t surprise me. Both conservatism and religion are philosophically optimistic. Liberalism and atheism are cynical. You can make other arguments, but this is the truth that my experience and perspective has led me to believe.
Immolate on July 28, 2008 at 3:04 PM
Reason is a whore!
ninjapirate on July 28, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Maybe has to do with race/gender–the whole what does God look like thing.
JiangxiDad on July 28, 2008 at 3:06 PM
Because absolute disbelief – not in God or a higher power, however defined – is a radical, not conservative position. It presumes that human beings somehow have the capability to make an absolute and final determination of fact regarding matters that by definition are beyond human beings. It attributes divine powers to human beings even while disclaiming any belief in the divine.
The more conservative position is to accept imperfection and in the meantime stick to what’s tried and tested, which for most people is whatever ol’ time religion. I tend to think that most atheists either wrongly presume that they understand what believers believe in (e.g., some old guy who’s like a person), or are more motivated by essentially political opposition toward or personal distaste for particular priests or other religionists.
The only rational position for a real rationalist is agnostic gnosticism: An admission of inability to ascertain or express ultimate truth (agnosticism) that leads inevitably to the conclusion that all purported expressions of ultimate truth must be imperfect in some way (a loose variation on historical gnosticism): I don’t know anything except whatever you say is wrong. Can also be associated with “negative dialectics.”
CK MacLeod on July 28, 2008 at 3:08 PM
Many people believe in some unknowable force behind the universe and the natural word, but they hesitate to refer to it as a monotheistic deity.
My father for example would say that he believes in God, but what he means by that is that he believes in some supernatural guiding force behind human consciousness and the natural world – not a male deity resembling humankind with supreme powers.
Personally I’m an agnostic so I would answer no to both.
PaulD on July 28, 2008 at 3:08 PM
Oops – for clarity remove the first “not” from the first sentence.
CK MacLeod on July 28, 2008 at 3:10 PM
Just theorizing here:
Skepticism about human nature doesn’t work if you think there’s a chance humanity is evolving towards some more enlightened state where we see the benefits of selflessly helping each other a la Star Trek (next Gen anyway). If, on the other hand, you think that mankind is fallen and will make choices based on that nature, it makes a lot more sense.
If people can be consistently selfless, the liberal worldview seems much less loony. After all, we might attain the kind of communist/socialist/whatever utopia they get so hot and bothered over. After all, If there is no higher power here in this world we must face that void and make our own meaning as Nietzsche said. Doesn’t “helping your fellow man” seem like as good a cause as any at that point?
But conservatives – believers in particular – have a darn good reason for the rejection of that idealistic dream. We know it to be only that – a dream. The flesh will always be there.
I suppose the conservative atheist might simply be a person who thinks humanity’s lack of selection pressure means we’re just not really evolving the way libs hope we will. Of course, the troubling philosophical implications of this worldview make it a difficult one for the majority of people to hold. I imagine that whole void thing gets pretty hard to face when you don’t have, at the very least, the idea of advancement toward something much better in your head.
Granted none of this speaks toward the truth or falsehood of either stance. Just making guesses as to motivations for why things are the way they are.
TheUnrepentantGeek on July 28, 2008 at 3:11 PM
Midwest and The South Pwns!
Chakra Hammer on July 28, 2008 at 3:11 PM
I don’t understand this. Are you suggesting that atheism represents cycnicism about human nature and religion tends in the opposite direction? I guess that depends on the religion, but surely Christianity doesn’t fit that paradigm. The whole point of the Enlightenment, (if you don’t mind a bit of broad generalization), was to escape the notion that sin corrupts all human endeavors and to release the human potential for progress. That is still the basis of liberalism, though conflict theory and post-modernism have taken their toll on liberal optimism.
Limited government (and, incidentally, the separation of church and state) are basic tenets of both the Old and New Testaments because believers have to admit both the sovereignty of God and the fallenness of man. Jews and Christians see government as a necessary result of the fall, but one all too prone to become an occasion of idolatry if not kept in check by a proper respect for a higher law.
To be sure, Christians are optimistic about history, but not because we have a positive view of human nature. It is because we think God is able to redeem even our worst failures.
JackOfClubs on July 28, 2008 at 3:12 PM
Actually, he does believe in a higher power.
DARTH SOROS!!!
pilamaye on July 28, 2008 at 3:12 PM
I tend to agree. But then most people aren’t completely rational most of the time – myself included.
TheUnrepentantGeek on July 28, 2008 at 3:13 PM
Why isn’t anyone talking about this????
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/13021.htm
AP?
Andy in Agoura Hills on July 28, 2008 at 3:14 PM
How does one define “God”? Are they talking about the witchery in the Bible, the city’s guardians, or some supernatural power?
I would like to see a study about organized religions as a whole more than God especially given the ambiguous meaning of the word. My qualm is not with a supernatural “God” or whatever it is, my qualm is with all the lies that have been attributed to “God” in the form of organized religions. “God” gave me free will and free thought, organized religions seek to eliminate those in the name of God.
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:14 PM
how do you know they are lies? do you speak for God?
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Ha! Cross-posted with UnrepentantGreek. He said it much better.
But I still don’t understand Allah’s original comment. Has Christianity acquired a reputation for a positive view of human nature? Weird.
JackOfClubs on July 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Because of where you consider your “rights” from. If you view rights are created societally, by consent, then you are more inclined to have a social (more liberal) view of government.
If you view rights as given to each individual, you will be more inclined to view government as something to be limited to restrict it’s infringement on pre-existing rights.
Spirit of 1776 on July 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Something, most say “God”, gave me freedom to think, the first commandment is in complete contradiction of this.
Do I speak for God?
I am just as qualified as the others who have.
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Allahpundit, you don’t believe in a higher power? What do you think of the unalterable past? What do you think of the dreadfulness and the allure of the myriad, unforeseen, possible futures? You don’t have to worship what limits you and what compels you, but it seems you’d do well to recognize their existence.
But you may object, “That’s not what people mean by God or a higher power.” And I respond, “What does that matter?”
Kralizec on July 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Heh. Pretty much summed me up.
JiangxiDad on July 28, 2008 at 3:18 PM
How did your lord and unmoved mover handle that?
ninjapirate on July 28, 2008 at 3:19 PM
They’re pretty much talking about the Deity of monotheism that’s been recognized for at least 5,000 years. All this business about “well, there are different beliefs about God” boil down to this: either you’re an atheist, a pantheist, or a theist. There are subdivisions but those are the big three. The word is completely unambiguous.
And, by the by, “organized” religion doesn’t seek to eliminate free thought or free will (and once an ‘unorganized religion’ develops a pattern, what happens?). Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, and Christianity are all “organized” religions – which is hilariously ambiguous, as a term, for someone so deeply concerned about the shades of gray in the word “God.”
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 3:19 PM
You know, I can’t understand what the heck is it about the West, especially California, that the region seems to be like a magnet for attracting kooky, off-the-wall/off-the-charts weird viewpoints, especially when it comes to religion. It’s been this way for as long as I can remember. I even remember a joke that California was the only state mentioned in the Bible: Song Of Solomon: And Solomon planted a garden of nuts!
pilamaye on July 28, 2008 at 3:20 PM
Because it’s unAmerican not to believe that we are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 3:20 PM
shick on July 28, 2008 at 3:20 PM
Not to worry Allah, we love you anyway.
Of course, it also begs the question of whether the other “doubters” inhabit the same celestial sphere as Allah does. Maybe they’re online as “Buddha”, “Siddharta”, “Jesus”, “Ahura Mazda”, etc.
cthulhu on July 28, 2008 at 3:21 PM
P.S. Newtown, Pascal, Kepler, Copernicus, Descartes, Faraday, and Babbage seemed to think fairly well under “organized religion.”
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 3:21 PM
really? do you think you’ll be remembered in 2000 years like Jesus is?
you’re a legend in your own mind, but thats about it.
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 3:22 PM
Ok. To “beg the question” is to use a tautology in debate. “Evolution is a fact because we evolved” is an example. What you mean is that a question is raised, not begged. Sheesh.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 3:23 PM
All in all, I’d say this is a good thing.
The thing about Hitchens’ argument that never clicked for me (all claims to knowledge of God aside) is that he commonly refers to man as having a too small frontal lobe and too big adrenal glands. If that is, in fact, the case, then shouldn’t Hitchens be glad that most people assume they will have to answer for themselves in some type of afterlife? Yes, religion has been, and is being, used to perpetrate great evil, but how often does someone avoid doing evil simply on the basis of their belief that they will be punished in the hereafter if they go through with it?
All told, belief in a higher power tends to contrain the more animalistic urges of man. If we suffer from a small rational facility and large, emotion inducing chemical factories, is it not a good thing that people may stop themselves from acting on impulse because they are afriad of the consequences?
Yes, there are numerous examples of religion being the motivating cause for evil. But those are, to an observant person, clear and calcuable. How can we measure the opposite effect? I don’t think we can. But imagine a world full of semi-cogent primates with guns, nukes, knives, fists, teeth and other instruments of destruction who felt no obligation for their eternal souls. Might it be much more horrific then the world we occupy now?
My 2 cents.
VolMagic on July 28, 2008 at 3:23 PM
Oh yeah, name one. Other than the obvious convenience of being accountable to no God, what is so great about atheism that conservatives should adopt it?
Maxx on July 28, 2008 at 3:24 PM
How does an Atheist believe in God?
JetBoy on July 28, 2008 at 3:25 PM
That’s a very nice find, Andy in Agoura Hills.
Kralizec on July 28, 2008 at 3:25 PM
NewTON. Newton. Not New Town. Sorry, everyone.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 3:25 PM
.
Atheism is required to adopt an arbitrary source for morals – usually the personal preferences of the atheist himself.
.
Liberal fascism generally dictates how others should live their lives, while rejecting conventional sources of moral authority (and most requirements to live by their own standards).
.
Since laws are based on someone’s morality and atheists reject revealed sources of moral values, atheists largely prefer Liberalism.
.
As much as I’ll congratulate AP when he has insights, I’m not at all surprised when he falls off the deep end. Atheism is a poor foundation for a world view, and for political thought.
Right_of_Attila on July 28, 2008 at 3:26 PM
The mystery higher power is probably either Elvis or the ghost of Andre the Giant.
ReubenJCogburn on July 28, 2008 at 3:27 PM
You missed the point, but to answer your first question, if I had enough guns backing my memory for a long enough period of time I suppose I could.
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:27 PM
Such a small list, such a long period of time.
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:28 PM
Allahpundit,
At the very least, you can say it’s pragmatism. For whatever reason (eternal truth or evolutionary direction or whatever else it might be), I think history has demonstrated that leftist ideas don’t work. Ergo, you’ll root for the ideas that, in general, do work.
We can all agree on that, I think. The rest is just compromising to attain maximum individual liberty under a system of law designed to protect that liberty.
Also, more Christians need to get on the bloody bandwagon with this concept here.
TheUnrepentantGeek on July 28, 2008 at 3:28 PM
Atheism is the enemy’s basis. The enemy -Liberalism, Communism, statism in any form- cannot tolerate any authority above itself. Hence, atheism or polytheism are the enemy’s preferred theology. Polytheism is only an option because it allows the state into the pantheon, which then decides which gods get in.
We, on the other hand, believe that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. The atheist has no basis to assert that any right is inalienable when it exists only by the leave of the biggest thing that walks the earth – civil government- which can rescind rights at will because no one can stop it. Without a transcendent source for our rights, they are tenuous and temporal.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 3:29 PM
uh yeah the christians were a force to be feared, especially during the 300 years of persecution by the mightiest empire in the history of the world….
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 3:30 PM
It is just a matter of time…
Valiant on July 28, 2008 at 3:31 PM
Hmmmm, I’m glad I watched the video or at least the first thirty seconds of it, where we find that overall, atheists are only 6% of the total. It seems they are losing ground because its been reported that atheists made up 10% of the population not so long ago.
Maxx on July 28, 2008 at 3:31 PM
why don’t you get us the atheist list to match them. you can’t.
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 3:32 PM
Your the black sheep of the Hotair family AP. But you’ll always have a home here.
shick on July 28, 2008 at 3:32 PM
Wow who’s showing the self righteous sanctimony now. Do you NOT think that a good ideology produces good thinking? Just being honest here, but garbage in often produces garbage out. But I see you have some anger issues Grow fins. God Bless
spacekicker on July 28, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Let me narrow down my definition of an organized religion, anything that neatly packages the “answers” to the questions that everyone should be asking themself, regardless of whether or not it is possible or not to find an answer to any particular question, which is an answer in and of itself. (See also: Rambam, Guide of the Perplexed, I 34)
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:33 PM
To walk outside on a clear, winter night, and look at all of the stars in the sky – to see such beauty and to think that it is just happenstance – strikes me as the epitome of narcissism. That YOU are the center of all things – and that there could not, as a logical extension of same, be a God that created both the universe and you.
I find such thinking to be incomprehensible.
It is the worship of thyself. Now that – I do understand.
OhEssYouCowboys on July 28, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Leo Strauss
Allen Bloom
William Kristol
Irving Kristol
Plato
Maimonides
Should I go on?
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:35 PM
Let me make clear I am not claiming that atheists are de facto immoral people or are more prone to evil than the religious, I just thought that, per Hitchen’s view of humanity, he might be a little more welcoming to a constraining influence in the lives of such dumb primates.
VolMagic on July 28, 2008 at 3:35 PM
Obama knows no shame..
Chakra Hammer on July 28, 2008 at 3:35 PM
And when they got the guns they amassed quite a nice little empire themselves.
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:36 PM
The past is unalterable?
Speakup on July 28, 2008 at 3:37 PM
I don’t know if I’m in that tiny minority of 2% or in the 9% one. I acknowledge something greater than me can/might exist (aka higher power), but it’s not something I’ll ever worship. It gives me something to ponder (how I’d answer that question).
However, the fact that I have conservative views is separate from my beliefs about religion. I came to them at different times for different reasons. Polls like these, though, make me feel a little unwelcome as a conservative, if only because there are so few of me and so many of everybody else. It does explain my attraction to Hot Air… there are more nonbelievers/conservatives here than anywhere else I’ve roamed. : )
Anna on July 28, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Everyone has faith in something; it’s just that some religions are a lot goofier than others.
Is it possible that a wrongfully executed man arose from the grave in order to forgive his tormenters? Sure; why not? And even if it isn’t true, believing in that does a lot more good than harm.
Is it possible that cows are the spirits of our ancestors? OK, I don’t have any conclusive scientific proof on that one either. But the people who believe it, frankly, don’t bother me very much.
But I have to draw the line somewhere. And when somebody thinks that insulting everyone else’s beliefs (somehow, magically) transforms him from a scatter-brained feeb into The World’s Only Authority On The Nature of Reality? Dude, those Atheists are (with all due respect) totally batshit crazy!
logis on July 28, 2008 at 3:38 PM
William and irving Kristol??? last time I checked they were both jews…and neither were scientists…
Plato an atheist?? doubtful.
pretty lame list.
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 3:39 PM
well you don’t have to stay in this little empire..why don’t you go the lands of islam, or the lands of atheism?? hmm??
you’d be right at home in Cuba or North Korea.
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 3:40 PM
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 3:39 PM
Wearing a cross doesn’t make you a Christian.
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:41 PM
Is any on that list an atheist?
ninjapirate on July 28, 2008 at 3:41 PM
AP, this oughta be on the front page.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 3:41 PM
Wow, AP, an especially silly argument – if there’s no God, why conserve anything?
corona on July 28, 2008 at 3:42 PM
Ok so you agree with the comment that you were responding to. You’re plea for my emigration is separate from the actual topic and typical I might add.
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:42 PM
3 IMPOSSIBILITIES
It is impossible for God to lie.
Without faith, it is impossible to seek God.
With faith, it is impossible for God to turn you away.
byteshredder on July 28, 2008 at 3:43 PM
I had to look up Maimonides he’s Jewish too…
If one did not know that Maimonides was the name of a man, Abraham Joshua Heschel wrote, one would assume it was the name of a university. The writings and achievements of this twelfthcentury Jewish sage seem to cover an impossibly large number of activities. Maimonides was the first person to write a systematic code of all Jewish law, the Mishneh Torah; he produced one of the great philosophic statements of Judaism,
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 3:44 PM
Have you ever actually read them? Go to the back cover of Leo Strauss’s Persecution and the Art of Writing, Irving will tell you what you need to do to learn the “Art of Reading”. Other than that I am not going to just lay it at your doorstep. Granted, a convincing argument that comes to a correct conclusion usually requires rational premises, but isn’t this a religion thread?
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Christians had to build an empire to keep the muslims from slaughtering them all.
but whats wrong with christians building a civilization? you sure have benefited from it.
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Not really true since everyone in China is free to be an atheist… In America, however, reasonable people believe that we are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights. Unreasonable people want to pick and choose what to believe among the Founders’ bedrock beliefs.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 3:47 PM
Responding to several things:
First, even wikipedia lists Christians in science. As to the number, my list was hopelessly short but I chose people who I think were the most consequential and were on the top of my head (Babbage, of course, being largely responsible for this conversation). And, for the cake, I only used Christians; you said “organized religion,” so I haven’t even delved into the Averroes’s or the Brahamguptas of the world.
As for organized religion, every philosophy answers those big questions (presumably you mean metaphysics, epistemology, ontology, etc.). So every school of thought is wrong, unless it’s self-generated? What if the person asks these questions and finds themselves within an organized religion?
The answer to those questions ultimately relies on faith, just as the answer to the question “Who painted the Sistine Chapel?” relies on faith in historic documents. Either the faith in God, a faith in god (as in, a pantheistic, we’re all god, let’s all watch Shirley MacLaine movies-style thing), or a faith in blind luck, to which Dawkins even admits in (pg. 168, The God Delusion). Since I don’t think you’re god, and I know I’m not, the odds are best with the first option.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 3:48 PM
mmmm always knew I was in the Majority on this issue.
Just not this big of a majority.
unseen on July 28, 2008 at 3:49 PM
None of that matters: to the Atheist, it is the exception that proves the rule. Yet they are utterly perplexed as to why there’s a 90% correlation their theology and liberalism.
But when you think it through is it really altogether surprising that people who think the entire Universe is nothing but one gigantic coincidence have difficulty picking up on even the most blatantly obvious connections?
logis on July 28, 2008 at 3:51 PM
How does that compare to turning the other cheek? Christ was all about people being docile to threats and becoming martyrs instead of exacting revenge or even pre emptive action, seems like a good religion for a state’s interests. Where along the line did God make his addendum, when he aligned with the state?
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:51 PM
I think it’s genetic. I don’t think there’s any logic involved. Either you’re religious or you aren’t. Maybe it’s even a defect, like blindness or autism; small-A atheists could well be missing a gene or a sense that most people are born with.
Then the reason it splits so strongly on red/blue lines might be that the Left consciously rejects certain things. They certainly don’t reject religion itself, with its rituals, proscriptions, fetishes, prophets and saints. They just substitute other systems that fill the same internal need — so they still have the religion gene, but they get labelled as atheists, which muddies the issue.
Nevicata on July 28, 2008 at 3:52 PM
but even in atheist societies, atheist scientists who hold views the state doesn’t agree with are persecuted.
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 3:52 PM
They are either ignorant, or you should run away from them as fast as possible.
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:54 PM
“There was this big explosion, you see, and it produced you, me, the space shuttle, sexual reproduction, the Parthenon, and so on. In short, it was the only explosion ever to bring about order rather than chaos,” -Randomly Selected College Professor.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Well said.
RushBaby on July 28, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Ditto
peski on July 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM
By your reasoning, Christ himself isn’t very Christ-like, given that he’s coming quickly, “like a thief in the night,” to judge the world. Also that pesky business about “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword” in Matthew. Loving your enemies is not “lie down and let them kill you!” Otherwise, why in Luke would he tell his disciples to sell their cloaks (which were, of course, their protection against weather and their most important garment) and buy swords?
Saying “Christ was about being docile” is incorrect; that’s post-modernism’s bastardization of the word “love.” Christ isn’t “You should come stroll with me by this lake!” Christ is “You are a miserable wretch, and you know it, but I came so that you won’t have to be punished for disobeying God.” The martyr’s weren’t docile because Christ said “turn the other cheek”; if they were wusses, they would have recanted their faith. They were docile because they knew where they were going.
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM
How does that compare to turning the other cheek? Christ was all about people being docile to threats and becoming martyrs instead of exacting revenge or even pre emptive action, seems like a good religion for a state’s interests. Where along the line did God make his addendum, when he aligned with the state?
LevStrauss on July 28, 2008 at 3:51 PM
Jesus told His disciples to buy swords, in spite of the Romans’ sword control laws that forbade Jews from carrying them. And turning the other cheek applies to individuals, not to the state, as St. Paul said, “The magistrate does not bear the sword in vain,” and John Baptiste did not warn a suppliant soldier to quit the army, only to behave.
You really ought to learn something about Christianity before rejecting it out of hand.
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 3:58 PM
And how do I run from myself?
emailnuevo on July 28, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 3:41 PM
the pray as written was of course for public consumption. The PC language, the hitting all the right notes etc.
Everything is a game to our political leaders.
unseen on July 28, 2008 at 3:59 PM
this shows you have a very shallow understanding of christianity. Jesus was talking about personal morality, not the morality of a state. in Romans 13 the state is explicity empowered to kill evildoers.
you have a caricature view of christianity. the first gentile christian was a Roman Centurion…he was not asked to leave the Legion, nor become a pacifist. Christianity is not a suicidal religion, we have the right to defend ourselves. Do you really think christianity says you should just sit back and allow your family to be killed?
God is behind the rise and fall of every state, every king. He creates the empires and uses them for His purposes….as Nebuchednezzar found out…
right4life on July 28, 2008 at 4:00 PM
You’re sending me off to read a book about finding hidden meanings in historical texts. I don’t own this book, so how about laying out it’s evidence. None of these people seem to be big-A Atheists.
ninjapirate on July 28, 2008 at 4:01 PM
If there was one testicle among the press corp they would ask him about this.
AP, put it on the front page!
Akzed on July 28, 2008 at 4:01 PM
It takes a certain hubris bordering on arrogance to look at the world and not concede the possibility of a higher being’s involvement.
When it comes to faith and politics, faith is merely shorthand for a set of values that are representative of that faith. The candidates live up to their faith with varying degrees of success/hypocrisy. A few, like McCain, refuse to discuss their faith at all which bothers me more because it means that faith isn’t important in their moral grounding and everyday life. I’d rather have a staunch atheist prick running before somebody with McCain’s taciturnity because you know where the atheist stands.
highhopes on July 28, 2008 at 4:02 PM
I too have a question about God vs. Higher power.
Does “God” in American discourse by default implies God as mentioned in bible, because then rest of religion can be summed up as “Higher power”.
For what it is worth I am a believer (India is overwhelmingly religious), and always find American discourse on faith interesting.
Gaurav on July 28, 2008 at 4:03 PM
Modern society seems to think that Christ will return and start high-fiving all His believers and dishing out what car He would drive, etc. WRONG! Christ will return as the Son of God in all His awesome and fearful glory.
highhopes on July 28, 2008 at 4:06 PM
I want to, but I can’t. I suspect the answer is political rather than philosophical. Republicans have spent the last 20 years defining conservatism in religious terms, and most atheists cleared out when it became clear they weren’t welcome.
RightOFLeft on July 28, 2008 at 4:06 PM
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