“There will be peoples of my Community who will hold fornication, silk, wine, and musical instruments to be lawful.”

When’s the block party? :)

Robert, How about Coltranes release – Kulu Se Mama? The track called “Welcome” is divine.

Indeed it is. You remind me of those palmy days many years ago when I used to play it myself, on soprano…….

Robert, How about Coltranes release – Kulu Se Mama? The track called “Welcome” is divine.

My admiration for Dizzy is as much about his contributions to Jazz as a person as his musical contributions.

I attended many workshops that Dizzy lead when I was a teen and in College. I was a drummer and a Jazz snob. Still am. I have many B&W photos of Dizzy sitting in a chair, cheeks bulging, with his infamous horn taken in unairconditioned rooms in the hot summer at these workshops. Dizzy spent many summers touring the USA in a bus, via a Federal grant and would do these workshops in cities throughout the country. He always invited the young bucks up on stage to join his band. You can imagine what this did to a wanna be drummer like me! He was one of the founders of bebop yet never suffered the horrors of addiction that many of the others did. So he was one of the few that lived long enough to be a KING!

Dizzy always had a BIG, like real big smile, a warm hug and a joke for all of us youngsters.

Robert, this is why the picture you chose is so appropriate. I remember seeing him play at Fort Dupont Park in DC after a workshop. He played for 4 hours. People came from the four corners of DC. His goodwill and music brought a momentary peace to an embattled city.

His music lives on!

Just what did Muhammad have against music, or is that just a Wahhabi thing?

It ain’t just a Wahhabi thing. The prohibition of music is based on these statements by Muhammad:

“Allah Mighty and Majestic sent me as a guidance and mercy to believers and commanded me to do away with musical instruments, flutes, strings, crucifixes, and the affair of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance.”

“On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will pour molten lead into the ears of whoever sits listening to a songstress.”

“Song makes hypocrisy grow in the heart as water does herbage.”

“‘This community will experience the swallowing up of some people by the earth, metamorphosis of some into animals, and being rained upon with stones.’ Someone asked, ‘When will this be, O Messenger of Allah?’ and he said, ‘When songstresses and musical instruments appear and wine is held to be lawful.’”

“There will be peoples of my Community who will hold fornication, silk, wine, and musical instruments to be lawful.”

Just what did Muhammad have against music, or is that just a Wahhabi thing?

Back to Jazz, here’s my take:

If God is supernal, mystical, almost beyond understanding, above all worlds, yet touching one at the root of the soul, then Coltrane is God.

In that cosmology, Miles is the god of this world, trapped by his anger at it, but capturing its essence. (Although he almost crosses over with Sketches of Spain.)

The prophets are musicians like Lester Young, Horace Silver, Art Blakey, Elvin Jones, and Wayne Shorter.

Fun digression. :)

Robert, I will give you this. Listening to First Meditations is the closest I ever came to God! Did you ever read the linear notes on his ‘Live in Seattle” release?

First Meditations is incredibly great. It’s hard to believe he set it aside as unsatisfactory. But Meditations itself is a whole ‘nother thing. I can’t decide which is better. Both are fine with me.

I must have read the liner notes to Live in Seattle, but many years ago, and I no longer have it so I cannot revisit them.

I thought that Dizzy was God?

If God is love…

…and love is blind…

…then Ray Charles is God.

Indeed.

I’ve been thinking of a few alternates today: first, on Coltrane’s Meditations there is the frenetic, tempestuous and magnificent piece “The Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost,” which many surmised was referring to Coltrane (the Father), Pharoah Sanders (the Son), and Albert Ayler (the Holy Ghost).

Or else one could see Miles as King David, Coltrane as King Solomon, and Archie Shepp and Pharoah Sanders as Rehoboam and Jeroboam, but how many people know enough OT and enough jazz to have followed me this far?

Robert, I will give you this. Listening to First Meditations is the closest I ever came to God! Did you ever read the linear notes on his ‘Live in Seattle” release?

FYI – I have a Cat named Miles – All Black and very sly
another Cat named Trane – very avante guard
A Cattle Dog named Ella as she is so joyful
and a Bearded Collie named “W” as he has the certain “look”

but how many people know enough OT and enough jazz to have followed me this far?

Robert Spencer on July 28, 2008 at 1:28 PM

Are you kidding? You lost me about 3 posts ago, I know even LESS about music than about the Qur’an. That’s why I ask questions about Aristotle or what Muhammad knew about the planets!

Only in SF! ;)

Indeed.

I’ve been thinking of a few alternates today: first, on Coltrane’s Meditations there is the frenetic, tempestuous and magnificent piece “The Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost,” which many surmised was referring to Coltrane (the Father), Pharoah Sanders (the Son), and Albert Ayler (the Holy Ghost).

Or else one could see Miles as King David, Coltrane as King Solomon, and Archie Shepp and Pharoah Sanders as Rehoboam and Jeroboam, but how many people know enough OT and enough jazz to have followed me this far?

iam7545:

If Blakey is King David, then Duke is God. Or is it E.C?

Look at all of the musicians that went through Blakeys Messengers. In mythical terms his energy was that of a King. He was dedicated to keeping the music alive.

Thanks again for the link.
Only in SF! ;)

I see your point about Miles and Trane, but Blakey as David? The chronology snags me.

Meanwhile, re Coltrane, there is of course this.

I don’t think so, but close. Maybe Coltrane?

I thought Trane was Moses

Miles was Abraham

and

Art Blakey – King David

So the hearers of Muhammad got it wrong? Interesting — but doesn’t that raise the possibility that the hearers may have misheard (or misinterpreted through their perspective) other things that Muhammad said, meaning that other parts of the Qur’an could also contain information that is incorrect?

I’m not sure I follow you here. There is no mishearing necessary. What I meant was that the text reflected the way the world looks — the sun rises and sets. That is, the pre-scientific understanding, based on simple visual observation.

I thought that Dizzy was God?

I don’t think so, but close. Maybe Coltrane?

So the hearers of Muhammad got it wrong? Interesting — but doesn’t that raise the possibility that the hearers may have misheard (or misinterpreted through their perspective) other things that Muhammad said, meaning that other parts of the Qur’an could also contain information that is incorrect?

AZCoyote on July 27, 2008 at 9:53 PM

Perhaps the text was corrupted? Something they accuse of happening to Christian and Jewish texts.

I’ll say! If the earth begins spinning in the opposite direction….

If the sun rose in the west, all my scout training is down the drain. And every thing I try to teach the kids about directions flies out the window too.

CrimsonFisted on July 27, 2008 at 9:49 PM

Unfortunately there may be another way to interpret a sun rising in the West and that’s if it’s an artificial sun…

I thought that Dizzy was God?

No?

iam7545 on July 27, 2008 at 9:52 PM

I thought it was Eric Clapton? :)

But then there are passages like this, which reflect a pre-scientific view, and are generally explained away as reflecting the perspective of the hearers of Muhammad, and not imparting scientific fact.

Robert Spencer on July 27, 2008 at 9:31 PM

So the hearers of Muhammad got it wrong? Interesting — but doesn’t that raise the possibility that the hearers may have misheard (or misinterpreted through their perspective) other things that Muhammad said, meaning that other parts of the Qur’an could also contain information that is incorrect?

Me too.

Robert, great photo of Dizzy and thanks for these posts.

I thought that Dizzy was God?

No?

My impression is that this will be a sign of the end times — a warning that this life will not go on forever.

Robert Spencer on July 27, 2008 at 9:25 PM

I’ll say! If the earth begins spinning in the opposite direction….

If the sun rose in the west, all my scout training is down the drain. And every thing I try to teach the kids about directions flies out the window too.

Is it too much to ask for consistency even within the same Sura?

Oh, yes, it certainly is too much to ask. Consistency would be a limitation of the absolute sovereignty of Allah. It is the Jews — the worst enemies of the Muslims (Qur’an 5:82) — who say that “Allah’s hand is chained” (Qur’an 5:64). Allah’s hand is utterly unrestrained.