labrat on July 29, 2008 at 7:26 AM

Umm, wouldn’t a better analogy be that it’s like Abbott and Costello criticizing astrology (i.e. criticizing something so stupid, incredible and irrational that the fact that the people doing the criticizing are entertainers is really not that germane)?

In addition to the theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification, one may also speak of the fact of evolution. The NAS defines a fact as “an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as ‘true.’” The fossil record, DNA evidence, physical left over remains and other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although it isn’t entirely possible to directly observe these transformations the indirect evidence is clear.

All sciences have to rely on indirect evidence at some point. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly so they verify their existence by watching for the tracks the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make a physicists’ conclusions less certain. For example we know subatomic particles do exist and Einstein’s theories of matter can be denoted in terms of energy are true.

Until ID proponents can come up with actual evidence of this super natural being they believe guided the universe, ID can’t be taken as science. Saying “look around at the world” does not qualify as direct observations would also suggest the world and life work randomly and isn’t guided but a super-natural force (i.e. the weather, stars, animals). I find it interesting that Penn also mentioned the Raelians who believe essentially the same thing, a higher power is responsible for our existence. The only difference between them and the abrahamic religions is one believes the bearded man in the sky created the world, the others think it was little green men.

Rowsdower on July 28, 2008 at 11:14 PM

that had proof? oh please thata a good one!

ok, tell me why the tuatara, with the fastest rate of DNA evolution every seen, is a living dinosaur.

Torquemada called, he said you’re a heretic who needs to repent before being burned at the stake.

oh how shocking, an atheist would bring up the inquisition….with what a whole 2,000 or so people killed? lets compare that to the tolerant atheist revolutions we’ve seen…lets start with the french revolution..you know..the Terror and continue onto the communist regimes..

Oh, and Voltaire, that godless, heathen, deist called, and said he’ll defend your right to speak your mind, even if it means his own death.

empty words from an empty man. we’ve seen how ‘tolerant’ atheists are, both in this country and around the world.

People who claim the “Judeo-Christian” tradition led to the concepts of individual rights and liberties really need to read up on the Renaissance, Humanism, and the Enlightenment.

people who claim ‘humanism’ or ‘atheism’ lead to individual rights need to read the gulag archipelago, or a day in the life of ivan denisovich or eldridge cleaver. or perhaps just go live in the enlightened lands of atheism…North Korea, Cuba, etc.

You should also look up “false dichotomy”: just because living in Islamic lands today is horrible, doesn’t mean living in a Christian nation would be any better (and please don’t start with that “The US is a Christian nation” garbage).

oh yeah the US is a purely atheist nation…and the atheists are responsible for slavery, and the genocide of the indians.

go live in one of your ‘people’s paradises’ and then let me know what you think…

MB4 on July 28, 2008 at 10:18 PM

Dang. You sure are articulate.

I can see why you are always quoting someone else.

When are you going to say something intelligent?.

Penn & Teller versus … creationism

…is like Abbott and Costello lecturing on nuclear physics.

And for every example of “horrible ‘Christian’ leaders” you can come up with, there are many, many more and worse non-Christan ones (mostly athiest and fascist, for example Stalin and Mao (both of which are ranked at the time of the worst disasters to ever befall mankind)).

Christian morals have given you that modern life that you so take for granted. try living in the lands of islam.

right4life on July 27, 2008 at 8:47 PM

Torquemada called, he said you’re a heretic who needs to repent before being burned at the stake.

Oh, and Voltaire, that godless, heathen, deist called, and said he’ll defend your right to speak your mind, even if it means his own death.

People who claim the “Judeo-Christian” tradition led to the concepts of individual rights and liberties really need to read up on the Renaissance, Humanism, and the Enlightenment.

You should also look up “false dichotomy”: just because living in Islamic lands today is horrible, doesn’t mean living in a Christian nation would be any better (and please don’t start with that “The US is a Christian nation” garbage).

I would say that you are exaggerating, but I don’t think that you are.

MB4 on July 28, 2008 at 8:46 PM

I’m not really sure. One part of the calculation would involve the meiosis process where you’d have a 2^23 possibility for one’s genetic material to make it to the sperm and another 2^23 for it to make it to the egg. Each of those is a one-in-ten-trillion chance.

For starters one would probably need something beyond a standard double float data type just to hold the numbers. Maybe if IBM would lend us their Roadrunner computer a few hours at 1+ pedaflops/second with 128 bit floats that would help.

Though modelling the all of the chance couplings, the impromptu sexual encounters, throughout history that produced ancestors would seem to involve astronomical odds–the extra glass of ale, the way the moonlight shone, that made a couple amorous on a given night a thousand years ago to create another branch on the family tree.

I am waiting for you to prove that God does not exist.

*chirp*

How ridiculous.

I am waiting for you to prove that 4 legged, 4 armed 10 feet tall green men, and women, made of cheese and peperoni do not live on the moon.

You can chirp all you want. Have you evolved into a birds?

If you exists oh God of davidk, you are one ugly sucker and if you don’t like it strike me dead.

As significant as whale poop.

*chirp*

davidk on July 28, 2008 at 9:11 PM

What would you do if you somehow found out that there was no God, go into a deep depression and commit suicide?

There is no God for the same reason there are no green bananas on the moon. Neither exists.

MB4 on July 28, 2008 at 8:41 PM

I am waiting for you to prove that God does not exist.

*chirp*

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
–Macbeth

As significant as whale poop.

*chirp*

but

there is no afterlife (Believers- “Oh no!).

Even if there is a God it is highly unlikely that any measly human being, with just possibility a small handful of exceptions, would ever be resurrected.

A desktop computer couldn’t calculate the odds against each of us being here. Maybe it’s beyond the all the computing power that has ever existed.

dedalus on July 28, 2008 at 6:52 PM

I would say that you are exaggerating, but I don’t think that you are.

Are you a man? If God made man unhappy … ?

I was quoting Mark Twain in case you didn’t notice. I do notice though that you are unable to respond to most of what he wrote.

I could see how you could be unhappy, knowing that you are just a cosmic accident whose life is no more meaningful than whale poop.

Illogical.

All you have is (not-so) cute one liners and quotes from Twain. You were sarcastic when I said some time ago that i would outline why I believed God existed.

If you don’t want to be made fun of don’t have such silly beliefs.

Either refute what I have said, or tell us why there is no God. Shouldn’t be hard for whale poop.

davidk on July 28, 2008 at 6:17 PM

Getting very frustrated I can see as you have to call others “whale poop”. So sad. You are the one claiming the existence of and knowledge of this made up all powerful but invisible and reclusive creature. There is no God for the same reason there are no green bananas on the moon. Neither exists.

Even with a human couple some 6,000 years ago, the odds of all the begats and begats and begats happening “just so” until each of our parents met and during a particular month’s ovulation one particular sperm combined with the egg to created our lives.
dedalus on July 28, 2008 at 6:52 PM

Yeah. Out of 50,000 sperm, I can’t believe I was the fastest.

I could see how you could be unhappy, knowing that you are just a cosmic accident whose life is no more meaningful than whale poop.

davidk on July 28, 2008 at 6:17 PM

The odds against any one of us being here is cosmic whether you look to evolution or Adam and Eve. Even with a human couple some 6,000 years ago, the odds of all the begats and begats and begats happening “just so” until each of our parents met and during a particular month’s ovulation one particular sperm combined with the egg to created our lives.

A desktop computer couldn’t calculate the odds against each of us being here. Maybe it’s beyond the all the computing power that has ever existed.

Infinite regress is absurd.

Personally? Not most of the time. How about you? You seem kind of down.

MB4 on July 28, 2008 at 1:32 PM

making man unhappy when he could have made him happy

Are you a man? If God made man unhappy … ?

I could see how you could be unhappy, knowing that you are just a cosmic accident whose life is no more meaningful than whale poop.

All you have is (not-so) cute one liners and quotes from Twain. You were sarcastic when I said some time ago that i would outline why I believed God existed.

Either refute what I have said, or tell us why there is no God. Shouldn’t be hard for whale poop.

NuclearPhysicist on July 28, 2008 at 3:59 PM
but it’s not particularly important for us to understand it at this stage in our existence.

Sigh…would that we Godless were allowed such a low standard of evidence.

NuclearPhysicist on July 28, 2008 at 3:15 PM

But if you had a chronologically distributed record of tumblers in various stages of becoming an automobile, it would be entirely reasonable to draw the conclusion that indeed what you were seeing represented just that, a tumbler becoming an automobile.

Time can be eternal and still include no possibility of negative time, if time moves only in a forward/future direction. Eternity is a concept that is largely beyond the finite understanding of mortal men. Perhaps, when and if we meet the creator, he can explain it to us, but it’s not particularly important for us to understand it at this stage in our existence.