Video: Penn & Teller versus … creationism
posted at 8:30 pm on July 26, 2008 by Allahpundit
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With due thanks and praise to the Lizard King, I give you the ultimate lazy-Saturday flame-war starter. If this thread doesn’t do a thousand comments then the terrorists have already won. Content warning.
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All I have to add to the discussion is this: I do not believe the Bible and science are antagonistic. I think the two can coexist just fine. Penn and Teller are doing what they do best, picking the side they like best and finding the worst spokesmen they can for the other. Then for goofs and giggles, they selectively edit the responces in a way that supports their side the best. I find it entertaining even when I do not agree.
Dawnsblood on July 26, 2008 at 10:12 PM
Teaching of creationism has no more justification than teaching that earth is just some spoiled alien kid’s science experiment.
For everyone who needs the soothing balm of a creation story that religion offers, for those who cannot accept that their existence has no impact on the cosmos, and for those who would break psychologically upon realizing that their existence ends with the end of their lives, by all means indulge yourselves. But please do not impose your fantasies on science.
There, was that flamey enough? Of course it is and it’s what I believe–but I don’t get to stand in front of a high school class and teach my beliefs as the truth. Neither should religion disguised as science be taught in a public high school–go to a private or religious school if you want that point of view (yet another reason for school choice in my view).
BryanS on July 26, 2008 at 10:13 PM
Yes, I never thought that he started with the assumption that “God exists therefore”. Just that by using the same deductive reasoning he did different people could come up with different conclusions. No proof either way.
Oldnuke on July 26, 2008 at 10:20 PM
That’s about all the fun I can stand for tonight. I’ll check in the morning to see if it got to the 1K mark. Have fun.
Oldnuke on July 26, 2008 at 10:24 PM
They would if they could, but until the public school racket is broken up, most parents can’t afford to. I’m saying the same thing I say at LGF here, this should not be a slapfight between evolution/creation/ID people, but a recognition that the government has too much power to control how a child is taught. Privatization or vouchers would defuse this situation handily, and freeing up the market would benefit all in the macro.
And before someone starts squirming and freaking out, let me ask you, do you oppose socialist medicine? If so, why? If you’ve answered that question to yourself honestly, why shouldn’t that same principle apply to education?
doubleplusundead on July 26, 2008 at 10:28 PM
A post worthy of the topic:)
Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2008 at 10:31 PM
Freakin’ troglodytes.
TheSitRep on July 26, 2008 at 10:32 PM
I’ve grown rather tired of the endless slapfight between the ID/Creation and Evolution people. It’s great for traffic and primo comment chum, but usually only ends up causing bitterness and nothing constructive coming of it.
doubleplusundead on July 26, 2008 at 10:35 PM
Education most definitely should be privatized through a voucher system. The Republican party should be hammering this point like they did welfare reform. Most of the urban Democrat base supports choice, so it would be a winner in a general election. There are even some brave Dems who stood up against the teachers unions (like former Milwaukee mayor Norquist) because the clamor form their supporters in favor of school choice was so loud.
Instead of this debate being about what gets taught in high school, perhaps a more productive use of the religious right’s outrage would be to make school choice a non-negotiable party platform policy.
BryanS on July 26, 2008 at 10:38 PM
No argument from me.
Spirit of 1776 on July 26, 2008 at 10:41 PM
I believe in Pat Condell’s “Pig-Monkey” theory of origin.
AlexB on July 26, 2008 at 10:47 PM
Fixed it for ya.
jgapinoy on July 26, 2008 at 10:47 PM
Sorry… wrong link… Here is the Pig-Monkey theory of origin link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCpT88Jw-f4
AlexB on July 26, 2008 at 10:50 PM
Not just the hand.
SouthernGent on July 26, 2008 at 10:57 PM
I only have 3 points.
1. There has never, repeat never, been living matter created from lifeless matter in any laboratory experiment or observed in any way. (No not even close)
2. The origins of life will *never* be proven unless we come up with a time machine. (Even if we make life in a lab, that is ‘intelligent design’)
3. Most(99.99999%) people will do no better or worse in life being exposed to ID, which IS NOT creationism. Actually we owe quite a lot of the religious men of science. Science is after all a product of God as well, and they knew this.
There are definitely more important matters to attend to.
DavidM on July 26, 2008 at 10:57 PM
I tried to bring in my feelings on the debate into one of these “AP is tired tonight and doesn’t want to post so he’s just gonna say something controversial on religion and let you people argue about it” threads and ended up spending way to much time for one person to spend in a thread and none of the parties involved gained a thing from it. You can’t “debate” religion.
Stossel did a good piece on privatizing/”voucherizing” education a few years ago. 45 minutes and he only covered 1% of the argument for it. I’m still trying to figure out the argument against it. Every time I bring it up with people that I normally don’t talk politics nobody ever has an argument against it. Even the lefties I’ve talked to about it admit that it’s not a horrible idea. I’m not sure of the logistics but some sort of national voucher system would probably work. This is an issue Republicans should be using…a lot. I’m sure it’d be very popular if given the proper exposure.
malan89 on July 26, 2008 at 10:59 PM
I heard a speech in college on God by a fellow student, and the follow up questions were the typical where did God come from questions. He was criticized for not having a better answer than God has always been and always will be. At that time I remember thinking if he has to explain were God comes from then I want to know were the “rock” or “atom” or whatever it was that suddenly created everything we see came from. If the evolutionists or big bang guys can’t tell me where their god comes from then it takes a lot less faith for me to believe an omnipotent God created everything than an inanimate object blew up one day and started the process of non-living things turning into living things.
mbrans on July 26, 2008 at 10:59 PM
Haha.
Let’s disappoint Allah and not go apepoop over this. Count me as one more who thinks this is friendly fire better directed at the educational-industrial complex.
misterpeasea on July 26, 2008 at 11:13 PM
Oh, but yes you do. Which is the biggest reason that so many people want to see Intelligent Design taught right along beside that.
Jimmie on July 26, 2008 at 11:15 PM
They weren’t jerks when they went after the Truthers. Now they are. Huh.
Jim Treacher on July 26, 2008 at 11:28 PM
It was thick enough to pull a Chuck Taylor hightop (fully laced) right off of my foot! My wife kindly met me when I got home with a garden hose. It was needed.
Scribbler on July 26, 2008 at 11:28 PM
You posted this too late on a Saturday night, Allah. Unless there is little new content on HA tomorrow, I don’t think this will get anywhere near 1000 posts.
Troy Rasmussen on July 26, 2008 at 11:37 PM
It is not what you believe but who.
Most people believe those they think to be credible since we don’t all have time to curse over the the Galapagos Islands and do a fact finder ourselves.
I would much prefer a debate over the facts. If we can discover a few things are true then we all would be much better off.
Proto Avis for instance. A bird older than the dinosaurs.
Don’t tell me I’m stupid, show me the evidence. All of it.
moughon on July 26, 2008 at 11:38 PM
Come to think of it i think I will try explaining the theory of evolution to the city if they ever ask me about the building that appeared on my property without any permits. Wanna bet they say some stupid crap about design?
mbrans on July 26, 2008 at 11:40 PM
Sweet, if only I could make that work at LGF.
doubleplusundead on July 26, 2008 at 11:47 PM
earth 6000 years old. yes, could God not creat the earth with a history? for example, he created adam as an older man, why not the earth wiht a fossil record.
custer on July 26, 2008 at 11:51 PM
Penn says that the song Idiot Wind says you can win the war while losing all the battles.
As any Bob Dylan fan would know the actual lyrics of the song are:
aengus on July 26, 2008 at 11:55 PM
In Penn’s defense, no one can understand what the hell Dylan says.
doubleplusundead on July 26, 2008 at 11:57 PM
That might be true for a lot of Dylan lyrics but the above is so simple that no one who reads it could not understand it.
Its not like trying to figure out the meaning behind Stuck Inside Of Mobile With The Memphis Blues Again.
aengus on July 27, 2008 at 12:02 AM
no taxes to schools. this and many more problems solved.
allrsn on July 27, 2008 at 12:03 AM
mbrans on July 27, 2008 at 12:13 AM
Heh, I’m just messin’
In any case, I hope any attempt at flamewar in this thread descends into any random discussion or about privatization/vouchers. Mwahahahahaaa.
doubleplusundead on July 27, 2008 at 12:13 AM
If you are serious, I want some of what you’re smokin.
lorien1973 on July 27, 2008 at 12:14 AM
If I bring in Goodwin’s law now, can this get settled and put to bed?
Hitler used Darwin’s teachings..
there..
DaveC on July 27, 2008 at 12:14 AM
Godwin, not Goodwin.
doubleplusundead on July 27, 2008 at 12:17 AM
No prob, bud. I haven’t even read the thread. I just seized on the Dylan reference because I noticed it. I’m now listening to Hard Rain.
aengus on July 27, 2008 at 12:20 AM
I have come to believe that Allah has a quota to meet. If he doesn’t generate a certain minimum number of posts per week he’ll be doing data entry. So, to meet his quota, he puts up a bunch of weakass crap like Penn and Teller that produces more heat than light and watches the food fight.
snaggletoothie on July 27, 2008 at 12:34 AM
malan89 on July 27, 2008 at 12:40 AM
Neil deGrasse Tyson — Check him out. He once did a lecture called “Stupid Design” and it is most excellent.
Brad on July 27, 2008 at 12:42 AM
I wonder if those people that want their Christian Mythology taught as science in a school, so that they can allow their children to “see both sides and make their own decision” would allow every creation myth to be taught in school in addition to their biblical fiction.
It hardly seems fair to stop at the laughable Genesis myth. There are some other ones that are far more interesting, although equally fictional.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myth
So many to choose from. And all of them are complete, Bullsh*t. Yes, even the one the Xtians cling too.
I kind of like the iriquois one, but that’s because turtles are cool.
I vote and support Republicans because Democrats won’t defend the country and have zero understanding of economics, but it is scary that we give people control over nuclear weapons when they actually believe in religious garbage.
Lesser of two evils, indeed. :(
JayHaw Phrenzie on July 27, 2008 at 12:43 AM
Ok, I have the answer…..
God created evolution.
Now everybody make nice and go to bed.
Kowboy on July 27, 2008 at 12:44 AM
That might be the best post ever in one of these threads. Now put the fire hose away and let’s get this flame war started. Not even 200 comments? I hate to say it, but maybe the thrill is gone.
RightOFLeft on July 27, 2008 at 12:50 AM
Is that why it’s repeated so often?
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 12:53 AM
Very true! Specifically, micro-evolution.
Macro-evolution, of course, is impossible.
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 12:56 AM
The Christian Church used the Bible’s teachings…
Spanish Inquisition, pedophile priests, pogroms against Jews, witch burnings, book burnings, etc, etc
Higher body count than Hitler and still going strong.
deewhybee on July 27, 2008 at 1:03 AM
You’re halfway there, so that’s encouraging. Little changes are possible. Imagine what a whole bunch of little changes (a couple billion years worth) could do.
RightOFLeft on July 27, 2008 at 1:05 AM
Without question, Doubleplus has had the last word in this argument. It’s all about the freedom to be able to teach our own children in the way we see fit, as opposed to how the government sees fit.
One of the things I NEVER want my child to be taught is that science (and to a lesser extent, authority in general) is always the unquestioned truth in every matter. I don’t believe that in the global warming debate, and I don’t believe that here.
If you find this so offensive, hand me my voucher and let me be on my way. And you can do the same.
12thMonkey on July 27, 2008 at 1:11 AM
You’ve got it backwards. Do you seriously think the Church is bad for humanity?
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 1:13 AM
Do you seriously insist that pedophile priests used the Bible to justify their deeds?
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 1:15 AM
After “a couple of billion years”, is there proof of ONE such change?
No, not even one.
Darwin said that paleontologists would eventually find myriads of fossilized proofs of macro-evolution.
Not one.
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 1:18 AM
goodwin/godwin.. whatever..
another ID/evolution thread to give AP a comment count boner..
on the evolution side, people crying out that the IDers be locked up in a camp for being such fascists..
in the IDer’s side.. well, too many beers with dinner tonight so I’m not even going to bother..
please let this die.. please?
DaveC on July 27, 2008 at 1:20 AM
There’s plenty of evidence for evolutionary changes. Google transitional fossils and ERVs, have fun educating yourself. Is there any evidence that the Earth was created in an instant 10,000 years ago?
RightOFLeft on July 27, 2008 at 1:25 AM
You should try actually reading some of those books you mention. You know, the ones we Christians haven’t burned yet. FYI there were a few thousand killed by the inquisition, like around 2,000. Not including the tens of millions dead from atheist Stalin and atheist Mao, pagan/spiritist Hitler alone was responsible for over 40 million dead from WWII.
By what standard do you judge Christians anyway? Oh yah, a Christian standard.
Get saved!
Mojave Mark on July 27, 2008 at 1:26 AM
Right. Who gave deewhybee the right to judge anyone? If there is no God, there is no right or wrong.
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 1:33 AM
I said proof,
not stretch-the-find-to-fit-your-preconceived-ideas.
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 1:36 AM
If there have been millions of instances of macro-evolution, surely there is ONE that is provable.
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 1:37 AM
And if that don’t work send for Bobby Jindal to do an exorcism. One or the other should do it.
MB4 on July 27, 2008 at 1:38 AM
Well I guess the terrorists have won then.
MB4 on July 27, 2008 at 1:40 AM
It’s a shame that Penn and Teller forgot that logic in this debate demands that the Theory of Evolution be at least looked at sceptically.
Snake307 on July 27, 2008 at 1:45 AM
I would be more concerned about what the Frisbeeterians think about all this.
MB4 on July 27, 2008 at 1:46 AM
These threads always veer into a discussion of how atheists are a bunch of sociopaths. Not only does this have nothing to do with evolution, but it’s just wrong. I’m an atheist, and I believe there is a right, and there is a wrong. I want a better world, just like you do, and the only way to make one is to imagine an ethical standard and hold myself accountable to it.
Christianity deserves credit for its contribution to our values, and to our way of life. I take the teachings of Jesus as seriously as I take any of the influential philosophers, contemporary or classical. Morality, however, does not begin and end with Christianity for me; and the implication that only Christians are capable of moral reasoning is simple bigotry.
Consider the Hitchens challenge (if nothing else, it could be worth a few posts to make the thread count a little more respectable):
I’m interested in believers’ responses.
RightOFLeft on July 27, 2008 at 1:54 AM
You have curious standard of proof. Were you on the OJ Simpson jury?
RightOFLeft on July 27, 2008 at 1:56 AM
As always, we’re provided no evidence for evolution… just a bunch of people telling us “this is how it is!”
The best part was that loser at the end whining that we’re coming in to people’s homes to steal their liberties!
Let me add that I don’t want ID or Creationism taught in schools, and most of the debates over what to teach in schools don’t center around that. They generally center around allowing criticism and analysis of Evolution, and whether large assumptions should be made when deciding how to interpret bits of information that we have.
As for the obnoxious Eugenie Scott, who just throws a “natural selection” bomb out there so that she doesn’t have to really explain something, I suggest she keep up:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0803/S00051.htm
(I won’t excerpt the whole article, just the opening and a few other bits)
Anyway, you should check out the article… interesting stuff.
As for an example of nonsense being called science, and later being changed while “scientists” basically just say “oops!”, check this out:
http://creationsafaris.com/crev200701.htm#20070103a
This is the kind of stuff us non-evolutionists object to. Things being taught as science… when they are not science, they’re simply incorrect assumptions based on a larger theory. Leave that nonsense out of the classroom.
And, oh, by the way… Darwin’s “Tree of Life” looks like it might be headed for the wood chipper:
http://creationsafaris.com/crev200702.htm#20070201a
RightWinged on July 27, 2008 at 1:58 AM
The other main religion of our time, The Al Gore Church of Apocalyptic Global Warming, does kind of the same thing but there the unbelievers are damned as deniers and flat-earthers.
Not much difference I suppose.
Same show just under a different tent.
Nothing really new under the sun.
MB4 on July 27, 2008 at 2:07 AM
I think Charles is sorting thru the bedfellows he’s made with his relentlessly anti-jihadist stance, and realizing that some of the involuntary associations that have sprung up are hurting his credibility. First it was the European neo-Nazis and VB. And now the ID/Creationist crowd seems to be in his sights.
Purple Fury on July 27, 2008 at 2:20 AM
The argument against it is that it gives too much power to parents and education activists who only have their own interests, and not children’s, in mind. An example of this, while not exactly a voucher system, is the NYC public schools, in which they have been largely broken up into small, “themed” schools. I’ve actually taught in two of them for short periods of time, both middle schools. One had a curriculum built almost entirely around the ecology of a river and being “green”, and projects in all classes were limited to that subject matter. In another school, the theme was “computers”, but it was poorly administered and laptops distributed to students in class were nothing more than glorified timewasters. There are more extreme examples, such as middle schools and high schools dedicated to “social justice”. In all of these cases, the fact that a well-rounded education takes a back seat to ideology prevents students from gaining a the knowledge they need to succeed in the future. Rigorous standards must be enforced for anything like this to succeed, but in too many cases, those who push hardest for vouchers are only doing so in order to find a way to prevent their children from meeting standards they don’t like, such as learning about evolution in science classes without religious interference.
Big S on July 27, 2008 at 2:32 AM
Allah:
Here is my contribution to the ever-growing thread count.
ColtsFan on July 27, 2008 at 2:59 AM
If imagining is good enough for scientists, it’s good enough for me.
On the contrary, no one has said that. In fact, it’s one of the reasons believers think atheists are wrong. Since atheists are moral people, but their worldview miliates against an absolute morality, then they are getting it from somewhere else. 1) God by being made in his image and/or 2) Being submersed in the wider culture which is invariably religion based.
io on July 27, 2008 at 5:34 AM
Creationism and/or ‘Intelligent Design’ are theology, not science and don’t belong in science classrooms.
End of discussion.
So why does this Teller guy (or Penn—I don’t know which is which) insist on larding his videos with all this vulgarity? It’s not edifying, and it’s not funny.
MrLynn on July 27, 2008 at 8:55 AM
Well, all of the comments have are very entertaining, as usual, but the fact is, when you die – you’re dead!
OldEnglish on July 27, 2008 at 10:21 AM
If there is no God, then there are no universal ethics. People will justify whatever they do, & no one has any authority to say anyone else is wrong.
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Oh, OK, you’re right. :)
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 10:41 AM
Good Grief! superfluous “have”.
OldEnglish on July 27, 2008 at 10:41 AM
That’s a cop-out! What’s wrong with sentient beings being able to decide for themselves the difference between right and wrong – through experience?
OldEnglish on July 27, 2008 at 10:45 AM
As I said, they do decide such, but you have right authority to call someone else “wrong”. You can call it “illegal”, but not wrong…if there’s no God.
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Well, AP, I guess the terrorists have already won, since we aren’t spamming the heck out of this silly topic.
[rolls eyes]
fossten on July 27, 2008 at 10:57 AM
Hitler justified his actions because he was trying to fulfill Nietzche’s vision of mankind evolving into the ubberman.
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Correct, and his experience showed him that he was wrong.
OldEnglish on July 27, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Are you sure? What if it didn’t?
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Islamofascist societies thinks it’s good to kill Israeli children.
Some Hindu societies think it’s good to bury the wife with her deceased husband.
Who are we to tell them that they’re wrong, according to your “decide for themselves” definition?
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 11:13 AM
correction: What if he didn’t.
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Ohhh, I’m trying to write too fast. I really should learn how to type with more than one finger. : )
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 11:15 AM
@ jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 10:58 AM
The Hitler road isnt one you want to delve down. The Unified Armed Forces of Germany during WWII had “Gott mit Uns” on their belt buckles. It translates to “God With Us”. Hitler said “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
Now I am not arguing that Hitler did what he did BECAUSE of his Christianity, although, you will argue that any atheist does things BECAUSE of their atheism. Its a faulty argument at best.
muyoso on July 27, 2008 at 11:19 AM
Anyone is capable of moral reasoning but only Christians are capable of justifying moral reasoning. I was talking to a Communist last night and he demanded to know what is wrong with stealing, what is wrong with murder. The answer, from his perspective, is there is nothing wrong with stealing and murder.
Since God created all people and every non-believer is a potential believer the answer is nothing. He made everyone capable of good and evil acts. Hitchens is not as clever as he thinks he is.
aengus on July 27, 2008 at 11:20 AM
@ jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 11:13 AM
Why are they wrong? Their religion demands it of them. I am sure you wouldn’t mind them telling you that you can’t go to church anymore, because you are worshiping the wrong God, right? The problem IS religion. Its irrational, and it calls on people to do awful things in its name.
muyoso on July 27, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Of course Hitler claimed to follow the Lord, for political reasons.
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 11:22 AM
@ aengus on July 27, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Are you out of your mind? How do you justify it? Because you read in a book that some invisible lord told you not to? Christians are the most pompous people on the planet.
muyoso on July 27, 2008 at 11:22 AM
You have a religion. Everyone does.
jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Everybody has beliefs, but beliefs do not equal religion.
Anna on July 27, 2008 at 11:27 AM
Its not pomp. Its faith. Its not like I insulted you or anything. RightOFLeft asked for a response.
aengus on July 27, 2008 at 11:27 AM
The main problem with with deciding for oneself is that many get it wrong in absolute terms, but right in selfish terms. Your Hindu example is a case in point – the cretinous husband doesn’t want his wife to have a longer/better life than him. It works for him.
What I actually meant is that, if we perform an action, it will have a consequence. If we don’t like that consequence, we usually don’t do it again.
On the other hand, we have the ability to calculate, such as, if I decide that I wish to kill the bloke down the road, for whatever reason, I must also allow that he may have the same thought. Therefore, it is better if we both agree that it is a bad idea and refrain from so doing. In fact, under the right circumstances we may both be in a position to make it a law that killing is wrong, and a punishable crime. I believe that this is how laws were originally formed – from experience.
OldEnglish on July 27, 2008 at 11:27 AM
Christians–real Christians–are the most
pompousgenerous, sacrificing, loving people on the planet. Christians are more likely to devote their entire lives to do good than any other group. Christians are the 1st NGOs to arrive at any disaster. Christians are the most likely to adopt. Christians are the most likely to move to impoverished places to aid the poor. Christians go to prisons to try to change the lives of those society hates. Shall I go on?jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 11:30 AM
I’m confident that this site is not going down the path of Big Purple Baseballs.
The coward there can’t even allow this question to be asked:
When will Negroes become extinct?
corona on July 27, 2008 at 11:30 AM
Ethic of reciprocity
aengus on July 27, 2008 at 11:32 AM
I guess I should clarify that’s more of my opinion than anything.
I still need to wake up, but I wanted to get my contribution in. Don’t want the terrorists to win and all.
Anna on July 27, 2008 at 11:32 AM
@ jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 11:22 AM
Always excuses.
muyoso on July 27, 2008 at 11:33 AM
@ corona on July 27, 2008 at 11:30 AM
Probably when the rest of us do. Why do you ask?
muyoso on July 27, 2008 at 11:33 AM
@ jgapinoy on July 27, 2008 at 11:30 AM
And why do they do that? For political reasons, they want to convert people.
muyoso on July 27, 2008 at 11:34 AM
@ aengus on July 27, 2008 at 11:27 AM
There we go, faith. That is something I don’t understand. If you read the bible and you think its the word of God, why do you need faith. Faith by itself denotes a measure of doubt. I don’t have faith that i will fall to the ground if I jump off a building. I know I will. I don’t have faith that the sun will rise, I know it will.
muyoso on July 27, 2008 at 11:36 AM
muyoso,
Hitler was an anti-Christ. You might as well say Satan is a Christian. Hitler could’ve said he was an American but that wouldn’t have made it true or challenge all Americans to disprove it.
aengus on July 27, 2008 at 11:37 AM
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