Europe’s “serious losses” put in perspective
posted at 12:30 pm on July 25, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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No one doubts that our partners in the coalitions in both Iraq and Afghanistan have suffered losses on the battlefield, and of course every loss is tragic. However, Barack Obama tells NBC’s Brian Williams that Americans have ignored the “serious losses” that NATO allies have taken in Afghanistan, scolding us for our lack of appreciation for their effort. Unfortunately, this dumbs down the definition of serious to such a degree that our losses look positively catastrophic:
At the same time, he said Americans also had to slough off their false impressions of their European allies.
“Americans have a tendency to characterize Europeans as effete or unwilling to shoulder the necessary burdens for freedom when you’ve got a lot of coalition forces in Afghanistan who have taken serious losses,” Obama said.
“Hopefully, we can move beyond some of those stereotypes and recognize that we remain bound together by a set of values: a belief in freedom, democracy, markets, rule of law, human and civil rights,” Obama said. “That coalition of ideas and values is what’s necessary for us to solve transnational problems of the 21st century, like climate change, terrorism, genocide and poverty.”
Jim Geraghty takes a look at the numbers:
The European country with the most casualties by far is Great Britain; their forces have suffered 111 fatalities, and upwards of 900 combat injuries of varying degree. Of those deaths, 68 are classified KIA and eight are attributed to “injuries sustained from Action.” (Other deaths include accidents, non-combat incidents, etc.)
Let’s include Canada as part of this exercise, even though they’re not technically Europeans. They have had 88 fatalities, 75 of which are attributed to “hostile circumstances,” which includes bombs, etc.
The next highest are Germany (25 fatalities, 14 KIA); Spain (23 fatalities, 4, but this total does not include 62 who died in a plane crash returning from the region); Netherlands (16 fatalities, 11 KIA); Denmark (16 fatalities, 15 in “hostile engagement,” the highest proportional to the national population); France (12 fatalities, 9 KIA) and Italy (12 fatalities, 7 KIA). Beyond that, casualties of the past seven years include seven Romanians, five Polish, three Czech, three Estonian, three Norwegian, two Hungarian, two Portuguese, two Swedish, one Finnish, and one Lithuanian. Most of these countries have been active in the country since 2001.
Did Obama study history at all? We lost more in a single battle to begin the Atlantic campaign in World War II than all of these nations combined: 1500 men at Kassarine Pass, a disaster that forced the American Army to shake up its Africa command. The Canadians lost a similar number at Dieppe in 1943. We lost tens of thousands in the Philippines in 1941, and tens of thousands in the march up the island chain from 1942 to 1945.
Those are “serious losses”. We’ve lost around 4,000 troops in Iraq over the last five years, and while relatively speaking those aren’t serious in terms of combat readiness, it’s orders of magnitude over the losses in Afghanistan from these nations.
And why? Because most of them don’t contribute to the combat effort, and specifically have reinforced that stance even while Obama spoke in Europe this week. France has added several hundred special forces to the combat lines this year in order to keep Canada in the alliance, but Germany refuses to allow their troops to share the combat burden. Americans can be excused from being less than impressed with the show of commitment from our NATO partners on the fight they claim to support.
If Obama considers these “serious losses”, then he’s even less ready to run the military than anyone anticipated.
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He’s reiterating that point at his horrific press ocnference right now with Sarkozy.
And it is SO obvious he’s doing this press conference so it looks like he’s already President.
OH MAN THIS SUCKS.
Vincenzo on July 25, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Europeans have the same damn “view” of Americans.
What comes around goes around!
Also, I think I have about had it with the Obama in Europe crap. The wounded and disabled troops he won’t visit now, the Germans who he has talked to that do NOT like Americans LIVE in BERLIN (what a concept there) and the fact that he is being a mamsy pansey concerning any direct questions. Ugh! I am so damn frustrated!
upinak on July 25, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Maybe this dullard will lose his luster come fall.
The Race Card on July 25, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Typical liberal…others losses are his gains…
right2bright on July 25, 2008 at 12:37 PM
Watching this press conference a day after his big Berlin speech, I’m starting to wonder, is this all a mini-series pretending that Obama is President?
Here he is today doing a joint press conference with Sarkozy. He MUST already be President. He just addressed the world on behalf of America the day before.
This is all a wonderful movie, but what about the real world?
Vincenzo on July 25, 2008 at 12:38 PM
I am watching the press conference. Sarkozy’s opening comments were tepid at best - he likes Obama because he is American. Shouldn’t he be worshipping BO because he is the Messiah. Return to Freedom Fries in 3…2…1.
HawaiiLwyr on July 25, 2008 at 12:38 PM
Vincenzo on July 25, 2008 at 12:33 PM
It started off with a bang. Amanpour asked Sarkozy about the car-b-que riots and he unloaded with a long, angry response dripping with sarcasm. The empty suit stood there next to Sarkozy looking like he didn’t know whether to cry or wind his watch. Not ready for prime time.
forest on July 25, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Meanwhile, I’m sure he refuses to acknowledge any contributions or losses whatsoever by other countries in Iraq, because it doesn’t fit the “Bush=unilateral” narrative.
BuzzCrutcher on July 25, 2008 at 12:42 PM
Obama just said: ‘We can’t base all our foreign policy on just American interests’….did I get that right?
Limerick on July 25, 2008 at 12:43 PM
The Race Card, passion is definitely your fruit :)
The sane American voters will have to decide, sadly, whether or not they want papy as CiC, or a child emperor.
Entelechy on July 25, 2008 at 12:44 PM
Yeah, and he said we need to change on CO2 first to set and example for china and India. You know, the onus is entirely on us, then we can just hope they follow out lead.
forest on July 25, 2008 at 12:45 PM
Probably just didn’t know what they were talking about. Geez, give the guy a break, after all how would knowing that stuff benefit Michelle’s kids?
Oldnuke on July 25, 2008 at 12:46 PM
I love the “serious losses” in Iraq and Afghanistan stuff. to be sure, every loss in the field of battle is a tragic loss. But for goodness sakes, 72 MILLION people died in World War 2. How many people died in the Battle of the Bulge? Should Obama talk about the serious losses suffered in Somalia or Bosnia? What about the serious losses in 9/11?
Whatevs. This guy needs more than 1 history lesson, he needs several.
mjk on July 25, 2008 at 12:47 PM
He keeps offering up ‘advice’ to Sarkozy. What a moron.
Limerick on July 25, 2008 at 12:47 PM
Could we, please, just on this site, put a big red NO in front of “Judgment to Lead under Herr Obama’s mugshot here.
eaglesdontflock on July 25, 2008 at 12:48 PM
I doubt that the French are going to take well how arrogant Obama comes off towards Sarkozy in this campaign speech.
I mean really does Obama need to tell Sarkozy how to conduct a press conference?
Texas Gal on July 25, 2008 at 12:50 PM
I had to do some extra reps this morning as penance for that one.
The Race Card on July 25, 2008 at 12:51 PM
child emperor
Heh.
The Race Card on July 25, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Sarkozy: ” Americans will choose the next President, not I.”
Obviously went right over Obamas head.
Rovin on July 25, 2008 at 12:52 PM
I don’t think we neglect the losses of other countries, I just think we aren’t happy that most of these countries tell their armys to not fight, I wonder how many of these deaths were in 1 sided fire fights.
Rbastid on July 25, 2008 at 12:52 PM
Sarkozy is up there defending the point that France works with America regardless of who is President, and he didn’t wait for this year’s elections to work with America.
Such a better man than Obama.
Vincenzo on July 25, 2008 at 12:52 PM
I think this press conference was a mistake for Team Obama, he looks very weak up against Sarkozy. Clearly Obama as president does not carry the image of Leader of the Free World. Obama looks very childish.
Texas Gal on July 25, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Mark Halperin quoting Obama at the join conference now:
…
amerpundit on July 25, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Weltmensch of Gargantuan proportions.
Zeus is indignant.
Entelechy on July 25, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Obama just makes things up as he goes along. He doesn’t let actual facts divert him from the story he wants to tell.
Cicero43 on July 25, 2008 at 12:55 PM
We’ll spend trillions cutting CO2 emissions, and the Chinese will just build more inefficient coal-fired power plants to pick up the slack, and Americans will lose their jobs to the Chinese.
Obama: Judgment to lead = give away the store. Brilliant!
Steve Z on July 25, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Just more hyperbole from “Citizen of the World” Obama. Didn’t he recently say that the military situation in Afghanistan was perilous? Someone needs to buy him a dictionary so he can see what words actually mean.
TooTall on July 25, 2008 at 12:55 PM
~ ~ Barack Obama
~ ~ The average American
Eat. Drink. Be happy. We vote.
~ ~ The discerning American voters (many independents)
Entelechy on July 25, 2008 at 1:00 PM
I’m willing to bet that O and his people didn’t even bother to research those fatality numbers before he made that remark. Why bother with facts when dramatic effect is so much more satisfying. Why bother to proudly point out the sacrifices our people have made for some country not our own when handed the opportunity. I guess Michelle was speaking for them both when she said she had little pride in this country.
jeanie on July 25, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Obambi would look weak debating your average Hot Air poster. With no teleprompter or prepared speech he is nothing. It’s is sad that he has gotten this far.
Les in NC on July 25, 2008 at 1:01 PM
The Dutch are Europeans, I think the Dutch are out in front of the problems, facing many other countrys, that are part of the “Continent” called “Europe”
“At the same time, he said Americans also had to slough off their false impressions of their European allies.”
Maybe this is what Miss South Carolina, was trying to tell us about American’s Geography defict “such as” maybe if Barack Obama had Maps of the Continent of Europe, he would see it is made of Countrys of different populations. For Example, English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh, then there are the Germans, French, Spanish ect..do all these Countrys, have the same exact opinion of American Foreign Policy? Really, I am supposed to Believe “Broad General Statements about people, who are being identified as Generic European Continent Dwellers” No wonder the foreign press is having fun with the Light Bringers tour…Such As.
Dr Evil on July 25, 2008 at 1:01 PM
They’re good for you :)
Entelechy on July 25, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Les in NC on July 25, 2008 at 1:03 PM
And who is he speaking for here? Chicago must be full of hate filled and closed minded people. It’s not a campaign rally, he’s on a fact finding mission as a Senator from Illinois.
I love how liberals take every opportunity to speak poorly of America. These people are determined to rule people, not represent.
Rogue Traveler on July 25, 2008 at 1:10 PM
Words, again, just words
Brat on July 25, 2008 at 1:12 PM
I agree! I was talking with a friend last night about how the weakness of Obama’s team and their inexperience has become so evident since Hillary has moved out of the way.
Texas Gal on July 25, 2008 at 1:14 PM
Barak Obama: The Affirmative Action President
flicker on July 25, 2008 at 1:15 PM
Intrusive and presumptious. Arrogance is something the French don’t like to share.
a capella on July 25, 2008 at 1:17 PM
And after B.O.’s Most Excellent Adventure World Tour here, I am sure that view has changed from “damned” to “God-damned”.
pilamaye on July 25, 2008 at 1:20 PM
They LOVE even more to do it on foreign soil.
Every opportunity they can get.
Sir Napsalot on July 25, 2008 at 1:23 PM
I hope someone here who can read French will grab some online French newspapers to see how they react to this campaign speech. It sure looked to me like Sarkozy was trying really hard to hide his irritation for being used as a backdrop for Obama.
Texas Gal on July 25, 2008 at 1:23 PM
That’s not a “stereotype” Barry, that’s a realistic assessment of how Europeans have behaved in the past, and how they continue to behave today (and hey, Barry, wasn’t that you yesterday telling the German crowd that they needed to do more to help in Afghanistan? I heard that part of your speech was received rather quietly by the German crowd. Imagine that.).
AZCoyote on July 25, 2008 at 1:25 PM
BarryO got confused by the math because it takes about 10 eurosoldiers to kick as much ass as just one of ours.
innominatus on July 25, 2008 at 1:39 PM
The Dutch are European, they don’t have a choice they are a country located in the Continent of Europe. People don’t get these countrys have their own National Identitys, and alot of them don’t like being called a Europeank ask an Englishmen if he is a European.
The Dutch are effete? Really is that what Americans think of the Dutch because I am an American as in United States Citizen, NOT a North American Generic Continent Dweller, and I don’t agree with that discription. How can Obama make Generalizations like the above about Generic Groups of people? Will he be taken seriously. Remember the people for example, who went to English Public School Systems, are not like people, who went to American Public School systems, say in Hawaii.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011938.php
Dr Evil on July 25, 2008 at 1:43 PM
Obama explains his short stop in France by saying his Berlin speech was “hopefully speaking to a broad European audience,” adds “the average American has enormous fondness for the French people.”
So why Germany, why not give your speech in Portugal or Poland? Because you wouldn’t have found a mass audience who are willing to stain their chino’s the moment you arrive?
Bishop on July 25, 2008 at 1:58 PM
He actually reminded the press that he isn’t the president.
Speaking of Sarkozy, whom he said was treated like “a rock star” when he visited the US last year: why was he so treated? Maybe because he said things like these:
“Here, both the humblest and most illustrious citizens alike know that nothing is owed to them and that everything has to be earned. That’s what constitutes the moral value of America. America did not teach men the idea of freedom; she taught them how to practice it. And she fought for this freedom whenever she felt it to be threatened somewhere in the world. It was by watching America grow that men and women understood that freedom was possible…
“Fathers took their sons to see the vast cemeteries where, under thousands of white crosses so far from home, thousands of young American soldiers lay who had fallen not to defend their own freedom but the freedom of all others, not to defend their own families, their own homeland, but to defend humanity as a whole…
“I want to express the deep, sincere gratitude of the French people. I want to tell you that whenever an American soldier falls somewhere in the world, I think of what the American army did for France. I think of them and I am sad, as one is sad to lose a member of one’s family.”
And so on.
Akzed on July 25, 2008 at 1:58 PM
Oh yeah, and Sarkozy spoke to the US Congress 11/7/07 in French. How embarrassing.
Akzed on July 25, 2008 at 2:00 PM
Merci beaucoup.
Bishop on July 25, 2008 at 2:01 PM
This page is from Le Monde’s (the French NY Times, but as far right as French papers go) Berlin correspondent dated today regarding the speech. Absolutely nothing there. Talks about the young essentially happy crowd. No criticisms of Obama. All leftie pap.
This Le Monde editorial from yesterday is more critical. It says Obama never really bothered to visit Europe before (except for a brief London stop once on his way to Russia), that the folks seem to like him but the leaders are more wary, that Obama never called his Senate committee (on Nato/Europe) to meet, and as of a few months ago, still hadn’t ever asked to meet with the EU’s Washington representative.
It goes on to say that Obama is showing signs of protectionism re. trade, and that he may be the “global” candidate, but his actions don’t back it up. It mentions his Iran with conditions/without conditions policy, and says Obama mentioned in Israel that all options are open with respect to Iran, but notes that Obama advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski ( and the vast majority of Europeans) oppose any use of force in Iran.
Then it says Obama trys to have it both ways. If he’s criticized, he changes, but doesn’t repudiate his initial position. The editorial closes with mentioning that McCain is likely to ask less of Europe in re. to troops for Afghanistan than Obama will.
All in all, it was no ringing endorsement.
JiangxiDad on July 25, 2008 at 2:04 PM
America and Americans are always wrong in Obama’s world view.
jukin on July 25, 2008 at 2:08 PM
When folks talk about wartime losses, they are most frequently groping for a measure of the cost of war. To get a clearer picture, it is most helpful to break the number down into combat and non combat related deaths.
While I don’t recall the number off the top of my head, I seem to recall that non combat related deaths account for something like 20-25% of the total number of in theater deaths.
A percentage of the total number of non combat related deaths (statistically speaking) would have occured no matter where these individuals were stationed. The fact that they are stationed in combat theaters means their numbers are rolled into the death total.
Having served in the Army Medical Corps at a number of very large bases and combat training facilities, I can speak from personal experience. Heat related deaths and accidents of every imaginable stripe occur on an ongoing basis.
While each death is tragic, it is meaningful to place the entire count into perspective. It is hard to imagine combat operations over this length of time and have so relatively few deaths and injuries.
God bless the servicemen and women and our prayers are with them and their families.
moxie_neanderthal on July 25, 2008 at 2:09 PM
As usual, Barack HUSSEIN Obama (PBUH)(SAW)(SWT) doesn’t know SQUAT about “serious losses”.
And of course what his trying to do, with this statement is
a) downplay the US losses and overplay the European losses, to make the US effort look less…
and
b) of course, in a backhanded way, build up the Afghanistan campaign, and backhand the Iraq Campaign…
This POS is such a fraud, like All “Democrats”, he absolutely HATES the troops, the US Military, etc.
He wouldn’t know squat about sacrifice, service, Military Service, Military History, Historical trends in casualties, etc., if it hit him square in the face.
In fact, his comments betray, as usual, his and typical Democratic complete and utter idiocy and stupidity and ignorance on such matters.
It also betrays his stupidity and lack of knowledge on the current NATO allies in Afghanistan, and their current missions.
The French, though they are there, and have suffered some casualties, have refused to actually let their troops engage in any Combat; they’re only allowed, currently, to engage in “Peacekeeping”.
The Germans are the same, the Germans in fact, make sure they deploy their troops, on the opposite side of the country from any figthing, on purpose.
The British, mix it up whenever they can, and have borne the brunt of the figthing just the like Canadians and the Americans. However, with the British, as soon as their Troops win a battle, they’re Generals and their Politicians, just like in Iraq, try to give the victory away, by immediately “negotiating” with the same people they just defeated, and giving them moral and political victories, and then withdraw; only having to go back in later, and fight all over again, when the situation turns out worse (just like they did in Basra).
The Canadians, despite their Leftist Government at home, and the same with the Australians, have actually been our most reliable allies over there.
But the Danes, the Dutch, the Poles, and the other Eastern Europeans have also done VERY well, especially their Special Forces.
But again, Obama wouldn’t know any of this, because he’s a lying, Troop-hating Democratic POS!
And for the record, the US has lost 560 people in Afghanistan; but according to Obama, that doesn’t matter, the European losses are “serious”; ours are not!
Typical Democrat POS!
Dale in Atlanta on July 25, 2008 at 2:10 PM
While I don’t recall the number off the top of my head, I seem to recall that non combat related deaths account for something like 20-25% of the total number of in theater deaths.
Currently, our Non-combat losses in Iraq, are 18.55%, and IED’s account for approximately 70% of our losses in Iraq; both figures represent a stunning idictment of how incompetent, and how much of a non-threat, the “insurgency” really was.
But you’ll never convince the clueless, Anti-American/Pro-Jihadi Democratic Traitor Nutbags, such as Obama, of that!
We lost 7000+ Army, Marines, Sailors, Airmen in the Battle of Guadalcanal, over six months, in WWII.
Compare that with under 5000, in Iraq & Afghanistan COMBINED, in seven years!
We’ve had under 5000 Service members killed in Iraq & Afghanistan, in TWO Wars, Simultaneously, since 9/11.
Over 110,000 Americans, have been MURDERED, by the own Fellow Americans, in the same time period!
WHERE IS THE DEMOCRATIC OUTRAGE???
Oh, there is none, because “murderers” are the “victims”, propped up by their Activist Lawyers, Judged, Politicians.
I’m tired of “Democrats” and Obama; they’re liars, frauds, Traitors & POS’s!
Dale in Atlanta on July 25, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Thank you.
Seems like at least one person on their editorial staff has been paying close attention to Obama.
Watching Obama up against Sarkozy was like watching the student up against a master. As hard as Obama tried to take charge of that press conference, every move came across as immature. If I was French and a supporter of Sarkozy, I would have very mixed feelings about Obama becoming president. On one hand the realization that America will not be leading under him and on the other hand the real possibility of a shift in world leadership to France under Sarkozy.
Texas Gal on July 25, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Well, I think Obama does have a slight point in that many Americans feel we’re essentially going it alone. Just how many Americans are aware of the fact that countries like Poland and the Netherlands just to name a couple have been steady and reliable allies from the start? Europe as a whole doesn’t have the military capabilities of the U.S. but they are contributing though there are some countries who are shirking their responsibilities to the fight as mentioned above.
Yakko77 on July 25, 2008 at 2:21 PM
How many of you know, that the UAE of all countries, has a contingent of Troops over in Aghanistan; and though small, they’ve been doing a great job, and have really helped with the whole fellow “Muslim” thing.
In fact, several of the Al Anbar tribes, have offered to send troops over to help the Americans in Afghanistan, they so hate Bin Laden and Al Qaeda now; anyone know that?
Thank that POS Obama knows that?
Dale in Atlanta on July 25, 2008 at 2:25 PM
Girlbama should have brought along Rev. Wright as his warm-up act.
God DAMN America!
God DAMN America!
The Berliners would have ate it up.
Cicero43 on July 25, 2008 at 2:27 PM
Ed, you’re just not seeing this properly. It depends on the meaning of the word “serious”….. Clearly that’s a relative term. (dry humor off)
The Brits and Canadians are tough, and the Dutch have stood pretty firm in agreeing to serve in combat roles unlike most of the continental Europeans. However, none of the continental Europeans are used to taking any sort of combat losses in the modern times. Having any soldier killed is serious for them because they haven’t got much political support or will to stand up militarily.
Sen. Obama was trying to be polite (good), diplomatic (good), and keeping up with his usual practice of tailoring his message to please the current audience (not good).
Jill1066 on July 25, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Ich bin ein bullshitter.
whitetop on July 25, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Well,Obama wanted to be JFK, but as in Germany, he also fails in France. He gets the first part right (insubstantial lightweight meets French President) but flubs the second (visit saved by charming French speaking wife.)
JiangxiDad on July 25, 2008 at 2:40 PM
No, I didn’t. Had to Google it up to find out. Thank you for sharing.
Yakko77 on July 25, 2008 at 2:51 PM
Did he list “climate change” above terrorism? Tell me he didn’t just list “climate change” above terrorism. He did, didn’t he?
crazy_legs on July 25, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Yup, he put it above genocide and poverty too. Remember, the sky is falling, so sayeth ManBearPig.
Yakko77 on July 25, 2008 at 2:59 PM
Is it absolutely necessary, Mr. Obama, to call Americans bigots and relatively denegrate the sacrifices of American troops?
If all you really wanted to do was praise our allies - you know, the people John McCain referred to as “the coalition of the bribed and coerced” - then why the Hell can’t you JUST DO THAT?
And, assuming that was your goal, the best way to show genuine appreciation would be to have somebody feed you a couple of facts so you can at least get a detail or two right while you’re at it. But I suppose that’s out of the question; I mean, nobody expects miracles from The Messiah, right?
logis on July 25, 2008 at 3:00 PM
Thanks crazy_legs for the heads up. Here’s what I Googled up.
Iraqi Sheik Offers To Take Fight to Bin Laden
Yakko77 on July 25, 2008 at 3:07 PM
And (some) Americans feel that way because the Democratic party, along with media enablers, have been accusing the US of “unilateralism” since we invaded Iraq.
So now, in Obama-speak, let us chastise the same American people that he and his party and the media have lied to for years for the crime of believing those lies.
Change you can believe in.
Nichevo on July 25, 2008 at 3:27 PM
Just words.
Just facts.
He won’t let such things get in the way.
ej_pez on July 25, 2008 at 3:27 PM
For those of you who have castigated me here, for implying that his Holiness, Barack HUSSEIN Obama (PBUH)(SWT)(SAW), is a Marxist-Mulism, please feel free to check this out, and then start fitting the women folk in your extended family for Burqas!
Dale in Atlanta on July 25, 2008 at 3:30 PM
Time to match The Great Pretender with the oversess trip footage.
davod on July 25, 2008 at 4:33 PM
You’re being kind to Obama by not mentioning WW1 casualties.
The Third Battle of Ypres in late 1917 lasted about 3 months. Both sides lost a total of more than 850,000 dead, wounded, captured, or missing.
Kinda puts things in perspective.
misterpeasea on July 25, 2008 at 5:25 PM
This has been my thought every day.
Connie on July 25, 2008 at 5:37 PM
It’s becoming more and more obvious that Obama was anointed because his left-wing puppet masters are convinced that he lacks knowledge, he’s incapable of independent thought, and he’ll do exactly what he’s told.
landlines on July 25, 2008 at 6:28 PM
Heh, right now you’d think that Obama isn’t even married. If they could they’d hide Michelle O. until Nov. 04, 2008.
Entelechy on July 25, 2008 at 9:11 PM
I don’t know JiangxiDad, if Mrs. Obama went to France and spoke French it probably would not have played well with those working class whites who cling to their guns and bible.
Texas Gal on July 25, 2008 at 10:16 PM
Ich bin ein beginner!
moxie_neanderthal on July 26, 2008 at 3:14 AM