And I can’t respect someone who puts no responsibility on the candidate he wants as President.

If I was harry potter, I could *wand at the ready* make McCain understand what an idiot he is about illegal immigration *swoosh!* McCANIOUS, McDUMBUS youIDIOUS!!!

… but I can’t.

As a real wise man once said,

“As a citizen, I would rather have a President McCain that we fight with 20 percent of the time than a President Clinton or a President Obama who we fight with 90 percent of the time.”

And it would be nice if a few good conservatives would consider this statement.

And you don’t see a democrat victory as anything to be troubled about.

You really are stuck on this stupid assertion that has no factual basis and a ton of evidence to the contrary.

I never said that.

At least you didn’t vote for McCain, and that is the important thing, right?

wise_man on July 23, 2008 at 3:56 PM

Drop the holier than thou bs. It’s not welcome.

At least I don’t take Arianna Huffinton’s version of events over John McCain.

I know you are but what am I?

I can’t respect anyone who watches the process, and then refuses to take part in it, because your candidate lost to the one who won.

And I can’t respect someone who puts no responsibility on the candidate he wants as President.

If you don’t like the rules, then change the rules.

wise_man on July 23, 2008 at 3:52 PM

Sure. Just call me Harry Potter or Merlin if you prefer.

The republican voters who decided on McCain have instructed us all to ‘bring his party together’ because that is how our primary system works. If you choose to be a conservative version of “anyone but McCain,” then this is your decision. I can’t respect anyone who watches the process, and then refuses to take part in it, because your candidate lost to the one who won.

If you don’t like the rules, then change the rules.

Maybe you cannot respect me, but that’s alright as it’s now mutual.

Such BS. Conservatives have no responsibility to tow the party line. McCain himself would agree with this, since he probably didn’t even vote for Bush in 2000.

I see that you take Arianna Huffington’s word over John McCain.

This says a lot about you.

.

And finally, being able to pick either the better of the two, or to prevent the worst of the two to win – is the same as a vote for someone. This one act has a dual result. Again, this is how our electoral process works after the primary system that reduces a field of candidates that you vote for down to one, and then you make one final vote from a choice of two. One from eachside of the political chart. You can not vote against someone in the voting booth. If you vote to protect your country from someone who wishes to do great harm to it, and I do mean Obam, in case you were wondering, is not in any way, shape, manner or form, being a “blind party loyalist.”

You are claiming that the only reason people voted for John Kerry is because he was not Bush.

If I said only, I was lying, as that’s certainly not what I believe. What I do believe is that it’s the main reason people voted for Kerry, just like it’ll be the main reason to vote for McCain this year.

Some people made a website called “AnyonebutBush dot com.” and there is no numbers available to make the case that these people are responsible for 100% of John Kerry’s vote numbers.

Yeah, I never claimed that they were. Not everyone gets online, but that doesn’t mean the same thought process doesn’t also exist in the “real” world.

If you made the claim

Which I didn’t.

I’ve said this a few times on this page alone, and maybe dozens of dozens of times in the last few months.

See, here’s where your posts seem to venture into the “rude” territory. Maybe you really believe we don’t get it, but we all really do.

Even still. My point is, and has been this entire time, that voting against Obama is a losing strategy. McCain cannot win an election without convincing people to vote FOR him.

We’re not talking about me or other conservatives who are so committed to the GOP that we actually hang out on blogs. We’re talking about the American people as a whole.

Even if everyone on this blog votes R, it won’t get McCain elected. If we were enough to elect a president, McCain wouldn’t be here in the first place.

So you’re job isn’t to convince people McCain’s somewhat better than Obama. That just doesn’t get people out of their homes and off their couches to vote. It didn’t in 2004, and there’s no reason to believe it will in 2008.

My point is not a controversial one. I don’t understand why you won’t at least meet me halfway there. You’re a little too stuck on my vote, and the truth is that I have no idea what I’ll do come November. I go back and forth all the time and likely will continue to do so for the next few months.

I haven’t liked McCain since I was eligible to vote, so this isn’t an easy one for me even though Obama seems determined to make it easy for me.

And as I have also stated as well, you are welcome to re-join reality at any time you choose

Dickish statement notwithstanding, as I’ve said countless times, that’s not the point.

It’s like you’re trying to explain time and again how 1 plus 1 equals 2 even though we already agree with you there.

No wonder you’re frustrated. You think we’re complete idiots. If you can’t respect me, then don’t bother talking to me as it’s a waste of both our time.

Blaming McCain for people not voting for him is a cop-out to the responsibility we all as conservatives have to do what is best for our nation

Such BS. Conservatives have no responsibility to tow the party line. McCain himself would agree with this, since he probably didn’t even vote for Bush in 2000.

I’m sorry. We’re not all blind party loyalists. There are worse things in life, like blind party loyalists.

‘not any factual evidence to back up your opinion.’

I’m not sure where your evidence is, so I don’t see how that’s a valid argument.

You are claiming that the only reason people voted for John Kerry is because he was not Bush. That is absolutely not true. Some people made a website called “AnyonebutBush dot com.” and there is no numbers available to make the case that these people are responsible for 100% of John Kerry’s vote numbers. If you made the claim, then it is on you to provide the evidence that it is true, not for me to produce the evidence that your claim is not true.

In fact, that’s one of the reasons you’ve been derided. Don’t tell us why we shouldn’t like Obama. Tell us why we should like McCain.

As I have said many times. The US election is now in the phase were two people are running for office (not counting the people wasting their time and money as a third party which is guaranteed to loose) and as such, You, Esthier, are guaranteed to get Obama as your next president, or McCain. And while I think that McCain may be an acceptable president, I also think that it is more dangerous to this country to get the junior senator from Illinois who is the most liberal senator in 2007 as the president. 6 of one, half dozen of the other. It doesn’t matter if you don’t like McCain, if you agree that Obama is worse, and you do nothing while millions of others will be voting for Obama or McCain, then you decision not to vote for McCain because he’s not good enough fails (in my opinion) as not being as imporntant as actually doing something to stand up and be counted while all of the voters cast their ballot for Obama.

I’ve said this a few times on this page alone, and maybe dozens of dozens of times in the last few months. If you haven’t gotten this concept yet – then I really can’t fathom why.

If instead, you just want to argue, call names and turn people off of McCain, then go right on ahead with what you’ve been doing.

The people who want to turn off conservative from McCain are the liberal trolls who pose as conservatives, and people not unlike yourself who wish to continue to exist in a time where the republican primary is still ongoing.

And as I have also stated as well, you are welcome to re-join reality at any time you choose. The reality so far is this:

1: Obama and McCain have won their respective primaries from the voters who put them there.

2: In just 4 short months, all Americans who wish to do so will cast their ballot for president this November. The one who gets the most electoral votes based on each state’s popular vote will be sworn into office in January.

3: Blaming McCain for people not voting for him is a cop-out to the responsibility we all as conservatives have to do what is best for our nation, otherwise, Obama will be the next president, and govern as a liberal, contribute to laws that we will oppose, and most likely nominate extremely liberal justices that will remain decades after Obama has left in 4 to 8 years. (or 10).

4: If nothing more I can say can help to open your eyes to the truth, then please don’t ask me any more questions that I will most likely have to rehash from my earlier answers that have already answered the questions you asked.

Then she says “Actually, the “twice the coverage” comment is possibly an understatement.” More unsubstantiated bullsh*t.

I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but it is actually a fact that Obama has received at least double the coverage McCain has when you add up all of the hours devoted to each candidate.

McCain’s had something like 48, while Obama is in the triple digits.

This is a fact that not even Obama campaign members dispute. They simply chalk it up to his historic run, which is obviously newsworthy in and of itself.

I would respectfully disagree

That’s fine and a vast improvement.

But I also disagree. Kerry was the guy who listened to the polls and would do what ever they said. He was the guy with a shot to beat Bush.

Those were his selling points.

That’s not much to vote for.

not any factual evidence to back up your opinion.

I’m not sure where your evidence is, so I don’t see how that’s a valid argument.

argue with good conservatives the benefits of not having the most liberal senator in 2007 and obvious fraud of a democrat politician

The thing is, you don’t have to argue with us about that. We already get that.

In fact, that’s one of the reasons you’ve been derided. Don’t tell us why we shouldn’t like Obama. Tell us why we should like McCain.

That’s the only way you’ll convince people like me that he’s worth the nose pin clip that’ll be necessary come election day.

I think that the people not supporting the republican and allowing the democrat to win are being dicks.

I think they’re just making their choice, same as everyone else.

something that I want to fight back

If that’s truly your mission, then you need to change the way you post things.

If instead, you just want to argue, call names and turn people off of McCain, then go right on ahead with what you’ve been doing.

And the time to b*tch about how McCain isn’t as strongly conservative as he should be has passed since he won the nomination.

wise_man on July 23, 2008 at 12:33 PM

The problem is that many of us didn’t even get a chance to vote for someone else. By the time it came to Texas, it was either him or Huck, one of the two people I like less than McCain.

Esthier throws out “In this election Obama has gotten at least twice the coverage and nearly all of it positive.” Now that’s bullsh*t.

Then she says “Actually, the “twice the coverage” comment is possibly an understatement.” More unsubstantiated bullsh*t.

Predictably, aero, you’ve goy your little Junior Ranger party blinders on. I understand how and why you all perceive an overwhelming positive media bias in favour of Obama. I’m simply arguing that it definitely exists, but nowhere near to the extent you believe it does.

And speaking of media bias, how do YOU feel about CBS editing McCain’s interview to save him from looking stupid? Is that not contrary to their job to be objective journalists? I guess either A) they felt sorry for him and his stupid answer or B) the McCain camp pleaded with CBS to edit the interview. It’s one of those two scenarios but it most definitely wasn’t neither.

I wish there was a color coding system so I can see the difference aero, because some times what both of these people say look very similar.

wise_man on July 23, 2008 at 12:20 PM

Oh, and regarding telling the difference between actual liberal trolls and good conservatives who can’t bring themselves to support McCain, I think you can figure it out. The simplest way, of course, is to just ask. Trolls pretending to be conservatives can’t keep up the charade very well. But our trolls are mostly of the confessed liberal type, like Dave Rywall and alphie. There are a few that seem to think they’re conservatives but are so darned stupid and narrow-minded that they’re an embarrassment to all of us, so they get treated like trolls.

If there are any really clever sockpuppet infiltrators trying to persuade readers here at Hot Air as “fellow conservatives” not to vote for McCain, never fear. The long-time readers who are true conservatives are accustomed to thinking things through on their own and making their own decisions. They will be no more persuaded by such sockpuppets than they are by you. If they’re smart enough to have chosen conservatism, I am optimistic that they are smart enough to make the right choice in the end, or at least the choice that they have a darned good justification for after thinking very hard about it for a very long time.

This is ten times as frustrating as attempting to debate liberals. At least with liberals, I don’t care why they have come to the wrong conclusion.

wise_man on July 23, 2008 at 12:20 PM

Believe me, I totally understand. Totally. I have lost it on occasion as well and lashed out at them for what I believe is short-sightedness in opposing McCain. But inevitably, when I do lash out at them, their push-back is far more rigid afterwards than it was before and I realize I’ve done more harm than good.

One time recently, though, I asked someone to stop hyperbolically describing McCain as a “socialist” in the same vein as Obama because it was diluting the meaning of the word and the argument against the real enemy. The commenter admitted to a bit of hyperbole and backed off to a degree. He isn’t going to vote for McCain, but he acknowledged that he went rhetorically over the top.

That post you just wrote, by the way, the one I’m responding to, is the most sincere, genuine, and persuasive post I’ve read from you on this topic.

“They were few and far between.”

I would respectfully disagree that the number of people who wanted “anyone but Bush” is the same amount to the people who joined that website as a member, and that is a small fraction to the millions of people who voted for Kerry. I was well aware of that organization and website. It was highly publicized on the conservative blogs. Just because it was my and your front of mind …. did not make it the overwhelming majority of the people who felt that way. It is dangerous to think that way, based on your opinion, and not any factual evidence to back up your opinion.

And to answer your other question, I am extremely pissed off that I have to come to a conservative web site and argue with good conservatives the benefits of not having the most liberal senator in 2007 and obvious fraud of a democrat politician (and that’s saying something) – not to be the next president. In my opinion (and I would otherwise never say this, but you asked) I think that the people not supporting the republican and allowing the democrat to win are being dicks. That’s my opinion. because they are helping the same people who want the republicans to loose. And I use republicans and conservatives as the same entity, and I know that this is not always the case.

Add onto that, the seemingly liberal trolls who have posting privileges here who are using their own operation chaos on us is something that I want to fight back. And I have stated before that these two groups seem to want the same thing, Obama, and these two groups also act in a same behavior of slamming McCain and mocking him. He has his faults, he is a flawed candidate, and the majority of republicans voted him for our candidate. This is the situation we now face. And the time to b*tch about how McCain isn’t as strongly conservative as he should be has passed since he won the nomination.

aero on July 23, 2008 at 12:11 PM

Flattery will get you everywhere with me.

And there were democrats who wanted Kerr to win

They were few and far between.

Maybe your reaction to someone who is attempting to tell you the truth is to call them a dick.

wise_man on July 23, 2008 at 12:12 PM

I really do hate to argue about semantics (though that won’t stop me), but I wasn’t saying that you as a person are a dick. Your posts are dickish and for no reason whatsoever. I was merely asking why, albeit in a more confrontational manner than I intended.

I wish there was a color coding system so I can see the difference aero, because some times what both of these people say look very similar.

And in the same vein, my comments that should only be directed at these actual trolls are picked up and responded to by these good conservatives who want the same thing as these liberal trolls, so please understand my confusion and regret when I blur the lines and regrettably hurt ‘my cause.’

I seem to be in a frustrating world where my attempts to mention what I see as the logical choice is meet with bot lies and half-truths and both parties end up hating me for being abusive. This election is not a game. This feels to me like I am trying to convince drowning people to swim to the surface and breath air while others are pulling them down by their ankles from below. This is not that difficult. McCain won the republican nomination and this crappy candidate is the republican nominee. This election is now a “check the D or the R” choice. The republican primary was the time to pick a candidate you liked, and bash the ones you didn’t like.

This is ten times as frustrating as attempting to debate liberals. At least with liberals, I don’t care why they have come to the wrong conclusion.

Kerry was the “anybody but Bush” guy, and he lost,

Only to the “anybody but Bush” people.

And there were democrats who wanted Kerr to win, so your opinion on this is also incorrect.

Maybe your reaction to someone who is attempting to tell you the truth is to call them a dick. That’s not my problem. It’s yours.

As for the conservatives resistant to supporting McCain, I reiterate that you cannot bludgeon them into reaching the same conclusions you have. And even if they do decide to vote for him in the end, you will never get them to say he’s a great choice and that they’re happy about it. The best you can hope for is that they’ll stop calling him the Spawn of Satan long enough to get him elected. I don’t see a conspiracy to keep McCain from getting elected among these long-time conservative commenters. They’re just disillusioned and feeling disenfranchised. Trust their good intentions if nothing else.

wise_man on July 23, 2008 at 12:00 PM

Do you actually have to be such a dick when you post or is that just how you type?

Bush won those votes. As you said, people were voting FOR HIM, not against Kerry.

The biggest argument for McCain, isn’t an argument for McCain at all. It’s just an argument against Obama.

Maybe you can follow the logic here. It’s really simple as well. Kerry was the “anybody but Bush” guy, and he lost, big time, cause he couldn’t give people a reason to vote FOR HIM. Now, McCain is the “anybody but Obama” guy. You’re not living in reality if you think he’ll fair any better than Kerry unless he can convince people to vote FOR HIM and not just against Obama.

You opinion that it is up to McCain to win or loose is absolutely incorrect.

This election will be no different, as millions of democrats will be voting for Obama. And there is only one way that he is not going to be the next president of the united states.

If McCain loses, it will not be “his fault.” I can see that you understand this simple logical process in which we elect presidents, and you don’t want to feel any guilt from your planned non-participation. You can lie to yourself, but the reality of your any everyone else’s actions is not going to change from how things really happen. You are welcomed to re-join reality any time you want.

Because when you repeat this fantasy that ‘it’s McCains fault when he loses’ is just that. A fantasy. Made-up. Not true. Illogical. Flawed.

MSNBC has its kneepads on for Obama and FOX has its kneepads on for McCain.

Dave Rywall on July 23, 2008 at 11:14 AM

I’d love to see evidence for the latter.

You could make a case for Fox blowing kisses to McCain, but they don’t exactly get on their knees the way Matthews and his tingling leg do.

wise_man on July 23, 2008 at 11:15 AM

The thing is (as I’ve already told you), I don’t want McCain to win. I don’t think he’ll be a good president, and I don’t like him as our representative.

Obviously I also don’t want Obama to win, but that doesn’t mean I want McCain to win.

You hurt your argument by jumping on people who are more than likely just venting here. This is not a good situation. Let’s just be honest about that. In a good situation we’d at least be able to rally around our guy, but we couldn’t have picked a worst guy to rally around considering his history with conservatives.

He doesn’t like us either. The feeling is completely mutual, which is why it’s silly to tell us to tow some party line he probably didn’t even tow himself 8 years ago when he was supposed to vote for Bush.

I’ve said this many times, and I’ll say it again. If McCain loses, it’s his fault, not those who have a problem supporting him. As a candidate, it’s his job to prove to everyone, not just those in the center, that he can be their guy. If he fails at that, then he loses.

My one vote cannot decide the presidency, which is why McCain has to make his case for himself and why it’s ultimately up to him to win or lose.

austinnelly on July 23, 2008 at 10:23 AM

And you no doubt enjoy the hundreds of mindless anti-McCain drivel and abuse of the facts regarding who the republican nominee is. You have no idea who I am so your make-believe version to define me fits very will within your own mind. It suits you.

Most of us have been here long before you and long before McCain’s campaign even had a prayer of doing anything but bottoming out.
I miss those days.
Esthier on July 23, 2008 at 10:41 AM

You know what I miss? I miss the days when the only operation chaos was going on was inside the democrat party, not here on a conservative website. I miss those days.

I didn’t vote for McCain in the primaries, but when it came to my state, McCain was already ahead, and he won just a few weeks after I cast my vote against him and for my candidate. And then he clinched the nomination. That’s how it works.

There are people here who are acting in the same manner as democrats as they trash McCain, just as the democrats who trashed Bush. They want McCain to loose, just like the democrats do. Criticisms of McCain is NOT what I have a problem with. And if I didn’t call you a troll, then it is not the “us” who I am disagreeing with when there is an honest dispute with McCain. Therefore, and please follow me here, I don’t have the same problem with you as I have with the people who suspiciously want McCain to loose when our democratic process has finally brought us to the final decision between a democrat and a republican. Do we honestly want a democrat to be the next president?

I don’t want Obama to win. I don’t think that an Obama presidency will somehow bring about a more conservative candidate next time by magic. Misrepresenting Bush is what the democrats have done for the last 7 years. And this misrepresenting of McCain is just as vile. Even more so because it is coming from (as fas as I can tell) conservatives. And this only bothers a few people here. Fine. I hope you enjoy president Obama’s 4 to 8 years, and you complain a lot while this real democrat trashes our country.