Obama: Immigration enforcement = terror
posted at 7:08 am on July 14, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Barack Obama spoke to the National Council of La Raza and in one sentence managed to do what most Hot Air readers would consider the impossible — he put distance between himself and John McCain on immigration. Calling the ICE terrorists, Obama made his position on border security and immigration enforcement plain. He thinks they’re fascist:
When communities are terrorized by ICE immigration raids, when nursing mothers are torn from their babies, when children come home from school to find their parents missing, when people are detained without access to legal counsel, when all that is happening, the system just isn’t working, and we need to change it.
So now the US government is a terrorist organization? Not only does this demonstrate his demagoguery on immigration, it also shows his cluelessness in the war on terrorists. If he can’t tell the difference between al-Qaeda and ICE, then not only should he not be President, but Illinois needs to answer for his selection as a Senator.
The ICE raids workplaces when they have probable cause to suspect an employer of hiring illegal aliens. They arrest workers who have false IDs and/or cannot prove their identification. The ICE takes pains to find children who have been in school when these raids occur and no other guardian can be found, and unless I missed a news story, ICE agents do not tear babies from nursing mothers’ breasts. Does Obama have a citation for that, or does he just feel like lying to people to make ICE agents sound like Nazi brownshirts?
And if that’s what Obama thinks of ICE, why has he done nothing about them during the three years he’s been in the Senate?
Illegal workers wouldn’t get rounded up and arrested by ICE if they hadn’t entered the country illegally. When people break the law, they’d better be prepared to get arrested. If Obama wants to change that, then let him propose the bill that does it, which thus far in his career he has declined to do. Until then, Obama had better do some studying to learn the difference between American law enforcement and terrorists.
Update: The nursing story turns out to be true, at least partially:
Federal immigration agents were searching a house in Ohio last month when they found a young Honduran woman nursing her baby.
The woman, Saída Umanzor, is an illegal immigrant and was taken to jail to await deportation. Her 9-month-old daughter, Brittney Bejarano, who was born in the United States and is a citizen, was put in the care of social workers.
The story never claims that the baby was “torn” from her mother’s breast though; apparently ICE waited until Umanzor finished the feeding to arrest her. And pardon my indifference, but nursing mothers who break the law don’t have immunity from arrest and detention. (via Bill from Wizbang)
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Barack Obama – Ahmadinajad – Hugo Chavez – Fidel Castro:
No difference.
S on July 14, 2008 at 12:21 PM
Like I said, I am a law and order guy, and breaking IRS laws isn’t my bag. However, deep down I’ve got to believe that the majority of US citizens know that amnesty is rewarding what you don’t want. If we could do something at the election other than boycot just to get attention, we could use that attention for the good of the nation.
Imagine, if millions of people voted for say Mitt Romney, or Dick Cheney, or Newt Gingrich, (choose one so the impact is greater), it would no doubt be noticed. (even if there was no chance of winning). God knows I will not spend a dime this season on McCain, but I would spend on a protest candidate. None of the current advocates like the “Minutemen” are in a position to lead because they have an established agenda.
A new agenda would be focused like a laser beam on “demonstrating to illegals that crime doesn’t pay”.
I would even be OK with having the candidate “Deputy Dog”, and spend millions of campaign contributions durring the election running ads to articulate his view on rewarding cheating, stealing, and lying.
At least McCain would know that this money would otherwise be spent on him this season if he wasn’t so shamefull.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 12:22 PM
Wow! Moving to the left of Senator McCain on immigration. Quite an achievement.
Is it just me or would “when nursing
mothersbabies are torn from theirbabiesmothers” have been more appropriate?TooTall on July 14, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Idiocy, with a dangerous dose of appeasement
Kini on July 14, 2008 at 12:29 PM
McCain and his chronies have successfully defined the immigration debate as biggots and nativists. If we had a campaign to re-define the debate as “Crime shouldn’t pay”, we could have Hispanics telling the story, and tout the wonderfull contributions legal hispanic immigrants have done for America.
McCain and Obama are phonys, and shold be smoked out.
Imagine how we could make those jokers dance when they have to explain the necessity for “Crime should pay big”.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 12:31 PM
He’s been busy running for President.
It's Vintage, Duh on July 14, 2008 at 12:34 PM
I agree, Illinois needs a new Senator. This guy is completely around the pipe.
dogsoldier on July 14, 2008 at 12:36 PM
I’m telling you that if we could organize a national ad campaign supporting “Deputy Dog” as a candidate that is smarter than the other two because even he knows rewarding crime is really really stupid. We could talk about the side effects of the 1986 amnesty which increased illegal immigration 100 fold.
I am willing to put my money where my mouth is for a legitimate, no scam campaign. I am not comfortable sitting on my hands and letting McCain and the RNC off the hook for their shameless pandering and disregard for what is truly the right thing to do.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Are you assuming that everyone who is in this country “illegally” is guilty of a criminal offense?
Big S on July 14, 2008 at 12:37 PM
If the swiftboaters can do somethin similar, why can’t we. Chances are, it would strip as many democratic voters as it does Republicans.
Whether Obama or McCain get elected, I woul like to see a huge pall over the new administration and teach the fools a good lesson on putting their personal ambitions over the good of the country.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 12:40 PM
Nursing mothers are torn from their babies? That has got to hurt. What an idiot.
bloggless on July 14, 2008 at 12:42 PM
Excuse me, but i thought there was a relationship between the term Illegal and crime. Maybe the word “violation ” would be more patable. Speeding is a violation of the law, but is not tried in criminal court. Either way, it is a crime.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 12:43 PM
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH Senator Obama!!!!
Why just last week, I wrote the Senator that the police are now breaking down the doors of Crack Houses, stopping some fine women from working on the street corners, MANY of whom are mothers and for what????
Senator, thanks for believing in America’s security first.
Explain to me though, doesn’t this go AGAINST the “Support and Defend the Constition” (and laws) of the United States????
HarryStar on July 14, 2008 at 12:46 PM
by definition they are.
right4life on July 14, 2008 at 12:46 PM
The term “illegal” is not a very good one in many cases, precisely because “illegal presence” in the country does not constitute a criminal violation. Look it up.
Big S on July 14, 2008 at 12:47 PM
Imagine that idiot McCain or Obama touting the virtues of speeding and running red lights.
Tresspassing is a crime for sure, and the illegals are minimally guilty of tresspassing.
It is like lying. For every lie you tell, you must tell 10 more to cover it. Such is illegal immigration. It is an engine for illegal activity and at best it promotes anarchy.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 12:47 PM
He is certainly smoking from the pipe.. and clearly inhaling a little too deeply too.
saus on July 14, 2008 at 12:48 PM
Natural law theory sets forth two “classes” of crime. The first are “malum in se” crimes, which roughly translated, means crimes reflecting “evil in and of itself.” Your murders, rapes, robberies, and such fall into this category. The second are “malum prohibitum” crimes, which include acts that are not morally evil in and of themselves, but are nonetheless defined as criminal acts by statute or other positive law.
Routine immigration violations (illegal entry, staying over after your visa expires, etc.) fall into the second category. Those are criminal acts because Congress deemed it so. But they do not carry the same moral approbation that “malum in se” crimes do.
So the answer to your question is, yes, everyone in the country here “illegally” has violated the law and has committed a crime. But how you feel about that “crime” and how that “crime” ought to be punished are going to be influenced by the “malum prohibitum” nature of their offenses.
Outlander on July 14, 2008 at 12:52 PM
MCCAIN: My friends, you are right. Those people who killed my shamnesty bill have ill intentions. They are bigots, just like my friend Lindsay Graham told you they were when he spoke before you two years ago.
My friends, I don’t want to talk about securing the border any more than you do. But trust me, when the “border” is “secure” (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), then we’ll do what we all want to do: Formalize our Sanctuary Nation. Rejoice that illegal aliens are serving in the military. And sanctimoniously demonize and marginalize all those pesky bigots who keep obsessing about immigration enforcement and national security. I’m as committed to peddling sob-story platitudes and whitewashing your ethnic nationalism as you are! (What was that about the 15 things about The Race you should know? Shhhhhhhhhhh!)
Just work with me here, ok? Brother Obama may have marched with you at the Chicago May Day illegal alien parade. But I have a lifetime commitment to Hispandering! And you have showered with me with honors for my open-borders work.
Remember?
They don’t call me La Raza’s voice in Washington for nothing.
Just ask my friend, Juan Hernandez.
My friends.
- Michelle Malkin
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 12:52 PM
If your boat sinks and you wash up on an American beach, it is not illegal. If you commit conspiricy to intentionally circumvent the law, you are a law breaker at the very best. I just don’t see how anyone can take the position that rewarding law breaking is the right path to take. It makes no sence to me.
I understand the corruption and $hithole most of the Latin American countries are, and I understand wanting to improve their lives. I am on board with that. If we need to increase the quotas for humanitarian reasons, I’m OK with that too. But, I will never be OK with granting the ultimate reward for people that have nothing but contempt for our rule of law. Ro me, cheating, lying, and stealing for your own selfish gain demonstrates bad charecter, and I don’t think it is best to pour gas on that fire.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 12:54 PM
I’m not talking about “Natural Law Theory”, but the federal laws of the USA. Illegal presence is not a criminal violation, and Congress has not deemed it so.
Big S on July 14, 2008 at 12:55 PM
…and if you overstay your visa (as almost half of the current undocumented/illegal aliens have), you have not committed a criminal violation by doing so.
Big S on July 14, 2008 at 12:57 PM
Well Congress tried to make it the felony it should be but then caved in when all the school kids (i.e. future voters) took to the streets with their Mexican flags.
mrsmwp on July 14, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Sounds kind of familiar. Sort of like this:
iurockhead on July 14, 2008 at 1:02 PM
There is no ‘try’…
Big S on July 14, 2008 at 1:03 PM
I was stupid, I admit it. I thought he would be better than Allen Keyes. Boy was I wrong. Should have left that one blank. I’m truly sorry…
bspoogeferd on July 14, 2008 at 1:07 PM
1. Illegal entry is a criminal offense. 12 U.S.C. s 1325.
2. Failing to leave subjects an alien to civil penalties and fines. 12 U.S.C. s 1324d. While civil penalties are not criminal penalties, the law frequently regards civil penalties as being “quasi-criminal” in nature.
3. You’re also forgetting that most illegals who overstay their visas also commit all kinds of crimes to “cover their trails” such as document fraud, using fake social security numbers, failing to file tax returns or pay taxes (to the extent not withheld), driving without a driver’s license, etc.
I realize point (3) is tenuous because you have to determine guilt or innocence of those secondary crimes on an individual basis, making it hard to “broad brush” a population. But, in general parlance, I see nothing wrong with generally characterizing “illegal aliens” as being lawbreakers.
Outlander on July 14, 2008 at 1:08 PM
This is right out of the Gospel of Kerry.
How many openings can McCain squander?
drjohn on July 14, 2008 at 1:11 PM
So what is your point? Breaking immigration law is fine with you? Do you really think that is sound reasoning?
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 1:14 PM
Mexico is NOT a friend of the United States. Since 1848 Mexicans have resented the United States. During World War I, Mexico allowed German spies to operate freely in Mexico to spy on the U.S.. During World War II, Mexico allowed the Axis powers to spy on the U.S. from Mexico. During the Cold War Mexico allowed spies hostile to the U.S. to operate freely. The attack on the Twin Towers in 2001 was cheered and applauded all across Mexico. Today, Mexican school children are taught that the U.S. stole California, Arizona, new Mexico and Texas. If you don’t believe it, check out some Mexican textbooks written for their schoolchildren
- David J. Stoddard, 27 year veteran of the Border Patrol
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 1:15 PM
Lets not forget where Trotski found refuge.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 1:16 PM
What’s wrong with me? I should be so cynical at this stage of the game that I can no longer be shocked. I’m an adult, I’ve been paying attention…why does this shock me, that Senator Obama is pandering to La Raza? He’s not looking for their votes, as they can’t vote-legally. It does dress up his bonafides to the ‘kook base’ already in his pocket. Why campaign for votes he already has? Is he so tone deaf that he can’t understand how this La Raza speech sounds to moderates?
Who believes that ICE agents are terrorists? Obama seems to have forgotten that ICE agents are Americans who will be voting in November.
This is surreal. I almost expected to see Forrest Gump waving at the camera while standing behind Obama.
Stupid is as stupid dos.
Doug on July 14, 2008 at 1:18 PM
Truer words were never spoken. The 1986 amnesty is mute testimony to that reality. Unfortunately, the dumbning down of America has come to full fruition, and has even infected our leadership.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 1:21 PM
When our nation had only a few million people, we had Washington, Jefferson, Adams and Madison. Giants!
Now with over 300 million people, we have the two LaRaza (the Race) twins to choose from. Dwarfs!
We are so scroomed!
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 1:21 PM
Obama decries the NEW YORKER cover as “tastless and offensive” yet he continues to make these tastless and offensive remarks that are, in fact, tasteless, offensive and terrorist-agitating. What about Obama is NOT tasteless and offensive?
I mean, his smile, fine, not tasteless and offensive, his big booming voice, same, but that’s about it.
Everything else: tasteless and offensive.
And, I think the NEW YORKER cover is pretty accurate and because of that, it depicts Obama’s (and wife’s) tastless and offensive personalities AND politics well — in that, it’s entertaining (some publication has finally come forth with realism about Obama’s tastlessness and offensiveness).
Interesting, Obama can deem a magazine cover so severely yet his politics can’t be named. He can call the U.S. government a “terrorist” so what does that make Obama? Supreme Terrorist? Mastah NoPin Terrorist-O?
S on July 14, 2008 at 1:22 PM
Well, if some SOB breaks in my front door, sits down on my couch, grabs the remote and demands to stay forever, I will immediately put my foot squarely in his ass all the way out the front door. If he breaks in again, he will get the Joe Horn treatment.
I will not cave in, surrender, back off, or give up because i know it will only promote more of the same.
Stupid really is what stupid does, and amnesty is absolutely stupid.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 1:26 PM
Two bits, four bits, six bits a peso
All for Saiga for President stand up and say so!
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 1:29 PM
I have a great idea.
This is the way Presidential elections should work from now on.
1) Republican candidate.
2) Democrat candidate.
3) Third parties.
4) None of the above. *
* If none of the above get the most votes an American will be picked at random from a national lottery.
I really think that it would be a BIG improvement.
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 1:34 PM
Anyone that actually believes that McCain and Obama sincerely believe amnesty is whats right, and is not pandering to fulfill the candidates selfish ambition for being President, is confused at best, and utterly stupid most likely.
Let me clue you in. McCain and Obama both are well aware amnesty will cause way more problems then it solves, but they only care about themselves and their election. The way they see it, the hispanic vote is the tiebreaker, and they have no scruples.
That is why I believe a grass roots, national campaign to illuminate the facts to the sleeping public is so vitally important. La Raza has mis-defined the issues to expand their voting power, and the facts have no big-stage advocate. A new grass roots campaign to raise money and run national adds could wake up the sleeping giant and break the fantacy of the harmonious utopian gift for the poor crapt on illegals, granted by the ambivilant McCain.
The bottom line is and always will be that granting the ultimate reward in return for lying, cheating, and stealing is very bad policy, as demonstrated in 1986 when Reagan was lied to by the Democratic congress.
Any fool that thinks the granting of amnesty will not promote more illegal immigration truly is nothing short of ignorant, stupid, or both.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 1:39 PM
If by illegal presence, you mean somebody that accidently strays across the border, you might have a case. That doesn’t extend to instances where one is employed without proper authorization to be in the country, nor use fake credentials, or all other ways illegals break the law each and every day they have a “presence” in this country.
highhopes on July 14, 2008 at 1:41 PM
Well fortunately you don’t own the United States, you are just one voice (you and MB4).
If amnesty was put together correctly, it would work.
And your solution to the 10-20 million that are here illegally is to do what with them?
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 1:46 PM
Doug,
“Stupid is as stupid dos.”
Unfortunately, this November the left is going to show us that ‘Stupid is as stupid votes.’
exhelodrvr on July 14, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Amnesty isn’t the answer to squat! It is rewarding criminals while penalizing the countless millions who have been waiting to get into this nation legally.
The solution is to go out after the employers and make it virtually impossible for illegals to make any kind of living here. Most will self-deport themselves and the rest could easily be taken care of by the usual methods of disposing of undesirable foreign nationals.
Beyond that, and clearly off the table, seems to be a rational guest worker program where there is no path to citizenship, no anchor babies, no social services (beyond what is expected for humane reasons). In the end, back to Mexico or wherever.
highhopes on July 14, 2008 at 1:53 PM
That’s what The Race also believes.
That Strawman has been shot down so many times already. I for one have grown tired of repeating it. If it hasn’t registered with you by now it probably never will.
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 2:07 PM
So what tools do you give the employers to know whether someone is illegal or not? Do you think it is the employers duty to police the state? If you were manufacturing a widget, and an expert in widgets, you should now become an expert in immigration?
The increase costs and burdens that are placed on businesses for “good causes” is just as foolish. That is what a liberal does, find a “good cause” then find someone to pay for it.
You don’t think we should have a guest worker program?
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 2:09 PM
Aww, you’re the one that thinks that making the illegals pay a fine and then applying,is bribery. Are you the one, or am I mixing up the posters?
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 2:11 PM
That appears to be The Race and the Plantaion owners at this time.
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 2:13 PM
I want all of you who are always whining about McCain and immigration to see what you have waiting for you. Why don’t all of you whiner stay home in Nov. and show McCain…by election this guy.
Really pathetic.
Chudi on July 14, 2008 at 2:15 PM
Red herring must be on the menu today because your post is nothing but one large non-sequitor.
Employers are already expected to hire only those with legal status to work in the country so your rant about “tools” and “policing the state” is nothing more than irrational twaddle from somebody who clearly has an agenda favoring the criminals already in the country. It’s not a matter of becoming an expert on immigration but simply a business complying with the laws concerning proper documentation of all workers.
Finally, it isn’t I that am against guest workers, that is a logical solution that is continually tamped down by people like you who throw out nonsense like needing to reward the criminals because there are too many of them and not enough of us.
highhopes on July 14, 2008 at 2:17 PM
All that has been answer before over and over again and in practically every way under the sun. If you haven’t understood it by now, I doubt that regurgitating yet it again would penetrate any better.
Are you in some kind of ground hog day loop?
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Well, I don’t know that many (including Malkin) that would advocate
killing an immigrant for attempting to come into the U.S. to find work. I don’t thing Michelle Malkin goes for shoot them on site, so we are down to MB4, Saiga, and maybe a couple of others.
But then there are a few nuts who would shoot and kill, we could set up a DMZ zone like Korea…
See how nutty you guys get? Advocating killing, let’s see, where was that last done…Oh, yeah, the Berlin wall….only it was the other way around, well not exactly, they didn’t shoot them when they tried to enter.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 2:20 PM
McCain may not have called ICE terrorists but his position vis-a-vis the McCain/Kennedy bill is virtually identical to the ideas being put forth here by Obama. McCain remains commited to giving away citizenship to the least deserving of those who seek to become part of America. That can’t be ignored by the babbling of morons who defend McCain without question, context, or critical thinking.
highhopes on July 14, 2008 at 2:20 PM
I have no problem with writing law that held private sector employers responsible for certain documentation in order to verify alien status.
That being said, it is quite amusing that while our representative blo-hards write these laws to punish the private sector, there is no mention of holding the public sector accountable for giving away taxpayers money by the boat-loads providing services to the same.
Its fricken amazing how the few things politicians should be responsible for are just disregarded.
Its a disgrace and possibly the end of a great system
Sonosam on July 14, 2008 at 2:20 PM
If McCain loses this election it will be on him and his koolaid crew. Period.
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 2:21 PM
As Michelle Malkin has so well put it, they are the LaRaza twins.
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 2:23 PM
You see, ignoring the fact that liberals like to create “good intentions” then tax people to help them. It falls into the same category. The reason why it has been answered time and time again in numerous ways, is that each of the “numerous” ways won’t work.
What is your favorite way of removing the illegals…busing, taxing the business, shooting them, putting them in pens then herding them to the border, , put them in camps east of the highway (no that has been done with those “Japs”), maybe a neighborhood posse?
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 2:24 PM
Here’s another one:
“ICE agents went to Jesus Garcia’s home on April 16 in conjunction with a raid on a nearby Pilgrim’s Pride poultry processing plant, where he worked marinating chicken meat. Garcia, from Mexico, has been a legal permanent resident for a year and a half. When about 10 ICE agents and local sheriff’s deputies knocked on his door, they told him he was using the wrong Social Security number, says his wife, Olivia Garcia, a U.S. citizen.
Though Garcia showed the agents his green card, they handcuffed him and jailed him. He was released a day and a half later after agents told him he wasn’t the person they wanted, he says. He had spent the night in jail. “He said it was pretty bad,” Olivia says. “People were crying and screaming.”
Jesus Garcia, who has since left Pilgrim’s Pride for another job, says the mishap cost him three days of work. “I worked hard to get my residency,” he says. “And to take me to jail just over a mistake?”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-06-24-Immigration-raids_N.htm?csp=34
jim m on July 14, 2008 at 2:27 PM
Well, that is interesting. You think the least deserving is those who seek to live and work in the U.S. You don’t think people like NAMBLA is less deserving, you don’t think communists, or marxists or less deserving. You don’t think serial killers are less. No you think illegal immigrants that have a job are the least deserving…but then if someone doesn’t agree with you they are babbling morons. How about a racist advocating murder, isn’t that what you are?
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 2:30 PM
Shooting them?
Pens?
Camps?
Those “Japs”?
You are an hysterical buffoon.
All that is necessary is to make the employers verify legal status. It’s an open “secret” that those who don’t know exactly what they are doing.
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Well, if it was Highhopes he would have had a “I will immediately put my foot squarely in his ass all the way out the front door”.
This is what being overzealous is about.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 2:34 PM
You are profoundly demented. That’s what you are.
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 2:34 PM
first off,
no solution will work if it doesnt include holding mexican ( not macho ) authorities accountable.
not only do they enable this invasion because of their own greed and inabilities to put up any sort of beneficial governance, but they thwart our attempts to punish capital criminal cases where a mexican national could face the death penalty.
No way can you get away with this shit any where else in the world except maybe europe with muslim immigration.
Ultimately we are to welcome a possible invasion force because a handful of tyrants can make worthy property useless to its inhabitants.
The United States is not the worst offender as some may claim,
But it may very well be the nation that could do something about the vaste waste and suffering caused by a handful of tyrants.
Sonosam on July 14, 2008 at 2:35 PM
LOL.
Is that a serious argument on your part?
Do you think that the US belongs to everyone in the world and anyone who wants to be a US citizen is entitled to just break in, any way they can, and claim their citizenship? Is that your position?
What does the concept of national sovereignty mean to you, anyway? … nothing, evidently. That’s why you’re so trigger happy to print up US citizenships for every illegal who barges in here.
That sort of attitude makes for an unsustainable nation. You are aware of that, aren’t you?
progressoverpeace on July 14, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Let’s see….
Hispanics supported Hillary over Obama by wide margins throughout the primaries.
The Democrat Convention draws close.
Hillary wants a floor vote.
Obama goes to La Raza and refers to immigration enforcement law officers as terrorists.
Maybe it’s not surprising that Obama’s not running to the center on this particular issue just yet.
Obama will take whatever position he has to in order to win. When he was getting started in politics, he buddied up to “Reverend” Wright and Ayers the terrorist, because they were influential in politics. He became close to Tony Rezko to get the (corrupted) funding he needed. He sat under a racist pastor when it was convenient, but ran as “above the fray” of racism when he thought it would help him get nominated. He supported partial birth abortion when appealing to leftists, and backtracked when he needed to start appealing to centrists. He ran as passionately anti-war in Iraq until he got the Democratic nomination more or less sewed up, then claimed he had always said we should be cautious about withdrawing too precipitately once he had the nomination.
Change you can believe in.
But it’s Obama who keeps doing the changing…
tom on July 14, 2008 at 2:41 PM
Maybe I actually will vote for Obama then, rather than Bob Barr, whoever he is, as with Juan McVain we know exactly what we will get (Scroomed!) and with Obama it just might be like “a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get” and there might at least be some hope anyway.
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 2:49 PM
I’m not sure what your point was but I’ll try to clarify mine.
The members of the House of Reps that actually care about and represent AMERICAN CITIZENS “tried” to pass a bill that would make being in the country illegally a felony. The members that pander to Hispanics, big business, their own need for power, etc. shot it down.
mrsmwp on July 14, 2008 at 2:50 PM
Well then you are for a guest worker program, good for you. And get off your high horse, you have to answer every post with your nasty rhetoric, it only shows that you don’t have faith in your argument, so you have to get personal.
If you were in business, you would know that you have to hire staff to make sure everyone is “legal”, and seeing as there is no way to confirm or deny a correct social security card without some effort, it costs money and is an additional fee. I had a plant of 200, and 2 full time people to keep track of what the state wanted on record for each employee. Remember, every employee is treated the same, so the same data info on each employee (I had to lay off my VP until he got his new SS card).
As I said, every liberal program is too “help” someone, every government program is to “help” someone, and this is a government program to “help” the immigration problem.
Each state has their own guidelines, 12 states have none. A business man should be able to run his business without doing the states job.
It is easy to be a liberal, just create a “worthy program”, that helps the government.
Listen:
The business should provide insurance to make sure the person stay healthy.
The business should provide insurance to make sure the person is legal.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Maybe you know something awful about Keyes that I’m not aware of, but if you will look at his position on all the issues you will see that he is as conservative as you can get. Perhaps its his emphasis on God/Christianity that turns you off? The guy is right on every issue. You should give him another chance.
mrsmwp on July 14, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Seeing as you take mine out of context, I will do the same to you.
So you think we should shoot and kill the illegal immigrants?
Listen I have posted my stance, it is not open borders by any means. Not even close. So you may want to know what my stance is before proclaiming it.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 2:55 PM
I am in business. We have hired people and then gotten a “no-match” letter from SS. We then give the person a chance to prove it was a mistake. Funny but usually they just leave. If all the things on the books were enforced and we had E-Verify or whatever, it wouldn’t be hard. We need to hold foreign immigrants to the same high standards that American Citizens are held to. I remember clearly that when I worked for others I had to show a Driver’s License and a SS card to get hired. Not to mention to rent an apartment. But we constantly lower standards especially for the Hispanics. Why is that?
mrsmwp on July 14, 2008 at 2:59 PM
If you don’t mind my asking, where do you live? And what is your general economic level. I would guess that illegal immigration isn’t in your face on a daily basis where it affects the quality of your life. If you make $40-50K or less and live in a border state it is a living hell!
mrsmwp on July 14, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Well first I wasn’t responding to you, but to this:
and the ones who support it.
And of course you put your name and Michelle Malkins name to my post denigrating the killing of immigrants. You may like that post, I have a feeling MM doesn’t subscribe to that sentiment.
I believe that analogy is pertaining to illegal immigrants, and the desire to kill them.
Now who is profoundly demented?…the ones who advocates killing immigrants, or the one who thinks it is a vial post.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 3:03 PM
I don’t even know what ‘illegal immigrants’ are. I will say that illegal aliens need to be cut off from all services and deported as soon as the Fed is aware of their status, which should be determined at every point of contact with the government (federal, state, and local).
As to our border, it should be militarized. I don’t see any argument against that. Unless you think that international borders are not really serious things.
If you support legalizing illegals then you are an open border person. You might claim, today, that you’ll do all the enforcement later that you refuse to do now, but no one with a brain would believe you. After all the illegals are legalized, then there are no illegals left in the US, so the enforcement money dries up. What do you think happens after that? It becomes, very quickly, open borders. That doesn’t even start to take into account many of the ancillary effects of the legalization policy (even assuming no path to citizenship).
progressoverpeace on July 14, 2008 at 3:04 PM
Like obama said, Americans can accomplish whatever they want if they put their mind to it.
I would persue a policy of moderate effort to find and deport illegal aliens. The rule of law trumps the “feelings” of the “throw your arms in the air and submit” malase crowd. Tough love would be my policy with illegals here now.
I would increase the quota for Legal immigration, and set up a guest worker program that does not have a path to citizenship. If they want to be citizens, then take the citizenship path. If they want a job, take the guestworker path.
I do not and never have advocated shooting illegals. I do not and never have advocated rewarding illegal behavior. And, I have yet to hear a rational reason to grant amnesty. All I have heard is “they are all Gods children, and should be treated humanely” in which I agree.
I would stop allowing “anchor babies” because they do not serve Americas interset and represent just another incentive to break our law. I would come down very hard on those knowingly hiring illegals. I would go forward with a tamperproof ID card like the “twic” card used today. I would require guest workers to turn in their cards when their stay was up, and put out a warrant for those who do not.
Also, I would hold it against any applicant for citizenship or guest worker that was a known illegal immigrant in the past and make them go to the end of the line.
In other words. I would move to eliminate the incentives that draw them here illegally, and create incentives for legal immigration. I would do my best to promote legal behavior and reduce illegal behavior.
If that makes me a monster, so be it. At least I’m not mistaken for a chump or fool by the illegals or their advocates.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 3:05 PM
I do not believe in killing illegal immigrants, but you already know that. Most people understand the difference between figurative and literal and I’m sure you are one of those. If not, wise up.
If you can, please give me one sound reason to grant amnesty.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 3:12 PM
You were responding to highhopes, whom you said was a “racist advocating murder” and he didn’t even say -
which isn’t a “racist advocating murder” comment anyway.
As to the rest of your post, it is so confused as to be almost incoherent.
I think you need a nap.
MB4 on July 14, 2008 at 3:25 PM
I live in NC, but own two business in California (in the process of moving them). I lived in Ca for 50 years. My kids went to school in a school district with 70% Mexicans. I lived for 20 years in that city. My economic level is not any of your business, but it is comfortable. I fly back to Ca on a regular basis (will be flying there this week for several days).
As I stated, I had a business with 200 employees (that one I sold awhile ago), during the Reagan immigration program. It worked, until the congress backed down, I hired an attorney (my expense) and filed legal status for over 100 employees. Each one in a family that was buying a house, paid their taxes, never filed (well one by error)a workers compensation claim. I sent them to management school at Cal State Fullerton, in a program I set up with a business teacher there, that taught them American management techniques. Over 25 of my employees went through that course, paid by me. I never had a finer group of people working…but it was short lived.
Once the dems backed out, it became chaos. The paperwork management was a mess. And the tools are limited for business owners to identify who is legal and who is not. The EEOC became oppressive, and demanded we have the information that we were legally not supposed to ask or know. It was a catch 22, even the Orange County EEOC office found 15+ illegal employees because they could not ask or research what they needed. However, they had no problems fining us for not having information that we could not obtain. It is not as easy as some would say, ask the wrong question, and you have a lawsuit.
I know what it is like to go into a Chula vista, Santa Ana, East L.A, Anaheim, San Diego, San Fernando valley hospital at 9 pm and see the mass of illegal misusing our medical facilities. I saw (with two kids) the waste of resources in bi-lingual education, the shoveling aside the average student for the very high achievers, and the low (read minorities) achievers. The average student got the shaft. Just like you, the average wage-earner, and the average business owner, they take the brunt of the force of the “helpful programs”.
I get the immigration issue better then most, I lived it, I worked it, my kids were raised in it.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 3:26 PM
LOL!
Border Patrol terrorists?
Chakra Hammer on July 14, 2008 at 3:27 PM
thats par for the course for right2bdazedconfusedincoherentbabbling
right4life on July 14, 2008 at 3:29 PM
I don’t want to go through all the posts, but Saiga, you, and highopes were all supporting each other, No? You supported his post by adding to my post MM name along with “millions of others”, but ignoring his doing a “Joe Horn”, guess you missed that…maybe you need a nap.
I didn’t like the “figurative or literal” analogy of killing an immigrant. When I read that someone has an analogy of killing someone because they are an immigrant, I am guilty of assuming they are racist. I mean, it couldn’t be because they were using their remote control.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Thank you for your response. I wasn’t being nosy with the income question it is just that when you have to live, shop, go to school, etc. in a neighborhood with lots of illegals (and even legal immigrants from 3rd world countries) there is a serious quality of life issue. I can see from your response that you are a successful business owner and I am sure in the top wage earners and live accordingly. That is what my husband and I are working toward but unfortunately we aren’t quite there yet. That being said, you used to be able to have a decent quality of life in America on a normal, middle-class income and that is fast becoming untrue in large cities like Dallas.
mrsmwp on July 14, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Also, forgot to add that all the stuff you said about the catch-22’s and red tape is totally true. There does need to be a complete overhaul from top to bottom on immigration. But until the Feds start enforcing the laws on the books it is all just a big sham. 1986 opened the floodgates for illegals. They knew that we really had no interest in enforcing the laws and came in droves. We cannot let that happen again.
mrsmwp on July 14, 2008 at 3:42 PM
I don’t disagree on much what you stated. In fact I stated several of the same for the past several months.
One issue, I would treat illegals differently.
The ones that are not productive or committed any crime, out and never return.
The ones that are productive, have established a positive work history, paid their taxes, etc.
Fine them and let them stay. Maybe charge them a percentage of their wages to offset immigration costs.
No different then if you ran a red light and was fined, they don’t take your car away. When you do wrong, you are often fined in our society.
But why remove productive people? (why not use their productivity) I know, they are “criminals”, but you break a law speeding, the fine should fit the law that was broken. If they came here to be productive, and were, that is a lot different then not-productive. Trust me, if you own a business, you learn real fast that there are some illegal Mexicans I would trade for a “legal citizen” any day.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 3:44 PM
I understand, but you have to believe me when I say much of the burden on you comes from “good government programs”. I am moving out of the manufacturing business, America does not want to compete. The restrictions are horrendous, and without those many opportunities, you and your husband become limited in using your skills.
The savings in China isn’t their wages, it is their lack of government fees, fines, involvement.
The general statement of “let the business sort out the immigration” is just to easy to state. Immigration is stopped at the border, by the government. That is the first defense, and should be the most important, and shared by all of the people in the U.S.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 3:51 PM
But when you’re driving without a license they do take your car away … AND you get fined and possibly jailed, depending on the judge and how you were driving. But they NEVER let you get back into the car and drive away, not even with a fine. They don’t issue temporary licenses to let you drive back home.
US sovereignty is, of course, a much more serious issue than the laws of our roads, though you might not feel it directly.
Because it is OUR choice who gets to stay in the US or become an American. That is one of the most valuable assets on Earth and illegals are robbing us of our choice, and forcing us to accept their choice.
These are not people without nations. They are all citizens of some country, and those countries are responsible for them, not us.
And anecdotes are no basis for policy.
progressoverpeace on July 14, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Let me be clear. If anyone, whatever race, forceibly breaks into my house with me there, I will not hesitate to use deadly force as the law allows. I am not advocating shooting anyone in a circumstance in which the law does not condone.
My point was that I don’t like being pushed against my will to accept behavior which is against the law.
As a business owner myself, I understand the lure of making a buck off of illegal immigrants. I don’t know if you felt guilty doing so, and felt compelled to make ammends by sending them to school or not. I suspect that in spite of hiring illegals, you felt educating them was the right thing to do, and that is a good thing.
It also sounds like you were justly fined for hiring them and you paid your fine. That too is a good thing. But, I would have prefered you hired legal immigrants, which probably would have been available if the illegals hadn’t priced them out, or the immigration quotas were higher. No matter how you feel, illegal immigration is against the law and hireing them is against the law.
I hope you didn’t have any conflict with the IRS you felt compelled to solve using your own devices.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Does that mean you are for a fence and/or some kind of real enforcement on the border? (Not the bogus “virtual” kind.)
mrsmwp on July 14, 2008 at 4:00 PM
I have a question for you…Do you sincerely feel you were contributing to the illegal immigration mess or not.
The reason I ask is because, you represented one of the incentives to draw illegal immigration and didn’t mention one concern for the chaos it caused in our schools, hospitals, jails, city services, etc. It sounds like you believe your business needs were more important than the residual consequences caused.
You , sir, are an example of how the breaking of laws can be rationalized away by those with a proclivity to do so.
There in lies the problem. Instead of addressing the problems, focusing on the symptoms does not cure the disease.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 4:12 PM
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 4:12 PM
mrsmwp on July 14, 2008 at 4:21 PM
It`s another RUN THIS CLIP AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TIL NOVEMBER! clip.
Bitter and clingy small-towners, Terroist government agents……….He loves America, right?
ThePrez on July 14, 2008 at 4:25 PM
Think about it. How did right2bright handle his form 941 payroll tax reports? How about withholding tax? How about his insurance? Did one illegal activity precipitate many more? Did right2bright give a hoot? Did he feel above the law and justified?
Was he able to sincerely convince himself that what is right is not always whats best?
Sounds like it to me.
saiga on July 14, 2008 at 4:28 PM
Terrorists? They must have learned their tactics from the previous administration (WACO and Elian Gonzalez raids – and they were here legally).
jerseyman on July 14, 2008 at 4:32 PM
My, aren’t we the coy one…you don’t know when someone posts the words “illegal immigrants”, you don’t know what they mean.
You are hereby confined to the children’s table, the adult table converses as adults, they don’t get into the “I don’t know what the obvious means, because I have a better definition”. Those words “illegal immigrants” have been used for about a dozen years. Ask the guy next to you in the short yellow bus what it means.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 4:40 PM
I mean whatever it takes, that is the first line. The line that should never be breached. Just like a fortified line in a battle, you don’t have it breache and expect not to have casualties.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 4:42 PM
Here, while you post what you think you read, let me post what I actually wrote and you didn’t read. I think this answers your first paragraph. …”and didn’t mention one concern for the chaos it caused in our schools, hospitals…”
Looks like I did address the problems…
This is why it is sometimes so difficult to post, please read what you respond to.
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 4:49 PM
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