McCain’s remarks to La Raza; Update: McCain tells La Raza that “borders must be secured”
posted at 2:45 pm on July 14, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Update II: The Washington Post reports that McCain took a couple of tough questions from the La Raza audience — and the responses might surprise a few people:
But the questioner continued to press McCain, asking whether he would address border security and immigration reform in a single bill. “One single bill?” he asked.
At that point, McCain reverted to the position he adopted earlier this year during the GOP primary, where he suggested the country should take on the question of border enforcement before addressing questions like guest workers and amnesty for undocumented workers. “One single, comprehensive bill — but first we have to assure the American people that the borders are secure,” he said, adding that if politicians fail to do that, “then we don’t pass the legislation.”
After a couple of questions a La Raza official suggested the senator had to leave, but McCain — who joked that in light of the “tough questions” he should have stuck to his prepared speech — insisted he would take a couple more. At one point he even tossed his microphone into the audience, at which point the questioner asked whether McCain would commit to ending the “inhumane raids” that separate illegal immigrants from their babies and small children.
“When your forefathers came, there was no illegal-legal. Everyone was welcome at Ellis Island,” the man asserted.
But McCain refused to rule out the idea of raids on illegal immigrants, saying, “The United States has to have secure borders sir, and that’s necessary, even if you disagree.”
That doesn’t sound like McCain was interested in a complete panderfest — and it gives more credence to his borders-first position.
Original post follows …
=================
The McCain campaign has released John McCain’s speech to La Raza today, one day after Barack Obama characterized ICE raids as a form of terrorism against American communities. The speech focuses more on economics than it does on immigration policy. At least half of the speech hits themes such as tax policy, free trade with Latin America, and education policy, emphasizing pro-growth strategies rather than the top-down redistributionist policies Obama offers.
At the end, he says the following about immigration:
Let me address one other issue important to all of us. As you know, I and many other colleagues twice attempted to pass comprehensive immigration legislation to fix our broken borders; ensure respect for the laws of this country; recognize the important economic contribution of immigrant laborers; apprehend those who came here illegally to commit crimes; and deal practically and humanely with those who came here, as my distant ancestors did, to build a better, safer life for their families, without excusing the fact they came here illegally or granting them privileges before those who have been waiting their turn outside the country. Many Americans did not believe us when we said we would secure our borders, and so we failed in our efforts. I don’t want to fail again to achieve comprehensive immigration reform. We must prove we have the resources to secure our borders and use them, while respecting the dignity and rights of citizens and legal residents of the United States. When we have achieved our border security goal, we must enact and implement the other parts of practical, fair and necessary immigration policy. We have economic and humanitarian responsibilities as well, and they require no less dedication from us in meeting them.
He also added this in response to charges Obama made at the La Raza conference yesterday:
I spoke recently at both the NALEO and LULAC conferences, as did Senator Obama. I did not use those occasions to criticize Senator Obama. I would prefer not to do so today. But he suggested in his speeches there and here, that I turned my back on comprehensive reform out of political necessity. I feel I must, as they say, correct the record. At a moment of great difficulty in my campaign, when my critics said it would be political suicide for me to do so, I helped author with Senator Kennedy comprehensive immigration reform, and fought for its passage. I cast a lot of hard votes, as did the other Republicans and Democrats who joined our bipartisan effort. So did Senator Kennedy. I took my lumps for it without complaint. My campaign was written off as a lost cause. I did so not just because I believed it was the right thing to do for Hispanic Americans. It was the right thing to do for all Americans. Senator Obama declined to cast some of those tough votes. He voted for and even sponsored amendments that were intended to kill the legislation, amendments that Senator Kennedy and I voted against. I never ask for any special privileges from anyone just for having done the right thing. Doing my duty to my country is its own reward. But Ido ask for your trust that when I say, I remain committed to fair, practical and comprehensive immigration reform, I mean it. I think I have earned that trust.
So McCain will tell La Raza that border security has to come first. He also put Obama to the left of Ted Kennedy and painted him as the real chameleon on immigration.
Most of the speech has been embargoed until delivery, so I will update this post at that time with the full text. Michelle, of course, has already posted her translation ….
Update: Full speech added:
Thank you, Jane, for that kind introduction. Thank you, also to the leadership of the National Council of La Raza, and its board of directors. I’m very pleased to be with you again to discuss some of the issues in this campaign that most concern you. As you know, this isn’t my first address to La Raza. I’m proud to have worked hard over the years with many friends here and elsewhere to make sure Americans of Hispanic heritage are appreciated for their contributions to the prosperity, security and culture of the United States, and to improve opportunities for your continued success, not for your sake alone but for the benefit of the entire nation. I also want to thank La Raza’s former CEO, Raul Yzaguirre, for being here today, and for the privilege of over twenty years of friendship and counsel he has so generously given me. And to my fellow Arizonans here today, who have given me the great honor of serving you in the United States Senate, thank you from the bottom of my heart. With your votes, advice and encouragement you have helped me to be a better public servant and a better American, and I am in your debt.
There are several issues I want to discuss today, but let me begin with the one that concerns all Americans the most — our economy. Over 400,000 people have lost their jobs since December, and the rate of new job creation has fallen sharply. Americans are worried about the security of their current job, and they’re worried that they, their kids and their neighbors may not find good jobs and new opportunities in the future. To make matters worse, gas is over $4 a gallon and the price of oil has nearly doubled in the last year. The cost of everything from energy to food is rising.
I have a plan to grow the economy, create more and better jobs, and get America moving again. I have a plan to reform government, achieve energy security, and ensure that healthcare and a quality education are affordable and available for all. I believe the role of government is to unleash the creativity, ingenuity and hard work of the American people, and make it easier to create jobs.
At its core, the economy isn’t the sum of an array of bewildering statistics. It’s about where Americans work, how they live, how they pay their bills today and save for tomorrow. It’s about small businesses opening their doors, hiring employees and growing. It’s about giving workers the education and training to find a good job and prosper in it. It’s about the aspirations of the American people to build a better life for their families; dreams that begin with a job.
So how are we going to create good jobs? Let’s start with small businesses, which create the majority of all jobs. A recent report says small businesses have created 233,000 jobs so far this year while other sectors are losing jobs. Small businesses are the job engine of America, and I will make it easier for them to grow and create more jobs. There are two million Latino owned businesses in America, many of them started by Latinas. The first consideration we should have when debating tax policy is how we can help those companies grow and increase the prosperity of the millions of American families whose economic security depends on their success.
It is a terrible mistake to raise taxes during an economic downturn. Increasing the tax burden on Americans impedes job growth, discourages innovation and makes us less competitive. The many small business owners who pay individual tax rates would take strong exception to the idea that keeping them low helps no one but the wealthiest Americans. Taking more money from small businesses deprives them of the capital they need to invest and grow and hire. Jobs are the most important thing our economy creates. When you raise taxes in a bad economy you eliminate jobs. I’m not going to let that happen, I will keep taxes low and cut them where I can. For those of you with children, I will double the child deduction from $3500 to $7000 for every dependent, in every family in America. I will reduce the estate tax to fifteen percent, so parents who have spent long years working hard to build a business, and provide a decent living to t heir employees, can leave the product of a lifetime of labor and love to their children.
La Raza runs one of the largest housing counseling programs in the country that has helped tens of thousands of Latinos become homeowners with secure mortgages. But millions of Americans have been hurt by the mortgage crisis and falling home values, and many in the Hispanic community have been especially hard hit. I want to help people who genuinely need assistance in these tough times, not speculators and lenders who contributed to this mess and didn’t follow the basics of good business practice. I am committed to making sure families who want to hold onto their home have a chance to do so. My HOME plan allows families who need help to apply — either at their local Post Office or online — for a new, guaranteed, fixed-rate, 30-year mortgage that will allow them to remain in their home, and raise their family with dignity.
To get our economy on track again, and create new and better jobs, we need to compete more, not less, in the global economy. We can’t build walls to foreign competition, and we shouldn’t want to. America is the biggest exporter, importer, producer, manufacturer, and innovator in the world. That’s why I reject the false virtues of economic isolationism. Any confident, competent country and its government should embrace competition - it makes us stronger - not hide from our competitors and cheat our consumers and workers. We can compete and win, as we always have, or we can be left behind. Lowering barriers to trade creates more and better jobs, and higher wages. It keeps inflation under control. It makes goods more affordable for low- and middle-income consumers. Ninety-five percent of the world’s consumers live outside the U.S. Our future prosperity depends on opening more of these markets, not closing them.
I recently traveled to Colombia and Mexico because I understand how vitally important it is to the prosperity and security of our country to strengthen our trade, investment and diplomatic ties to other countries in our hemisphere. I have often traveled over the years to Central and South America, and I have learned our relationships there are as important, if not more important, as any relationships we have in the world. It is the reason why I’m an unapologetic supporter of NAFTA, the Central American Free Trade Agreement, and the Colombian Free Trade Agreement, and why I believe a hemispheric free trade agreement is a worthy and necessary goal whose time has come. And while it is surely not my intention to become my opponent’s scheduler, I hope Senator Obama soon visits some of the other countries of the Americas for the first time. Were he to do so, I think he, too, would see that stronger economic bonds with our neighbo rs and the closer friendships they encourage, are a great benefit in many ways to our country. Colombian President Uribe, a man of courage and vision, has risked much to combat the narco-terrorists of FARC for the sake of all peoples in this hemisphere. His recent leadership in freeing Americans held hostage for years should earn him the respect and gratitude of all Americans. And we should emulate his statesmanship by passing the trade agreement Colombia and the United States have negotiated, and which both countries would greatly benefit from.
I know that not all Americans have prospered in the global economy. And for those who, through no fault of their own, have lost their job to foreign competition, I have proposed a comprehensive reform of our unemployment insurance and worker retraining programs. We will use our community colleges to help train workers for specific opportunities in their communities. And for workers of a certain age who have lost a job that won’t come back, if they move rapidly to a new job we’ll help make up the difference in wages between their old job and the new one.
In the global economy what you learn is what you earn. Today, studies show that half of Hispanics entering high school do not graduate with their class. By the 12th grade, U.S. students in math and science score near the bottom of all industrialized nations. Many parents fear their children won’t have the same opportunities they had. That is unacceptable in a country as great as ours. In many schools, particularly where people are struggling the hardest, the situation is dire, and I believe poses the civil rights challenge of our time. We need to shake up failed school bureaucracies with competition; hold schools accountable for results; strengthen math, science, technology and engineering curriculums; empower parents with choice; remove barriers to qualified instructors, attract and reward superior teachers, and have a fair but sure process to weed out incompetents. I’m a strong believer in charter schools. La Raza has hel ped establish 50 new charter schools and the results they are producing are very encouraging. Hispanics work hard and sacrifice a lot because their most cherished dreams are the ones they hold for their children. You understand the importance of early childhood development and the active role parents must play in their children’s education to make sure they graduate on time and with an excellent opportunity to live happy and prosperous lives. You deserve a greater say in deciding how your children are educated, and I am committed to making sure you do.
Let me address one other issue important to all of us. As you know, I and many other colleagues twice attempted to pass comprehensive immigration legislation to fix our broken borders; ensure respect for the laws of this country; recognize the important economic contribution of immigrant laborers; apprehend those who came here illegally to commit crimes; and deal practically and humanely with those who came here, as my distant ancestors did, to build a better, safer life for their families, without excusing the fact they came here illegally or granting them privileges before those who have been waiting their turn outside the country. Many Americans did not believe us when we said we would secure our borders, and so we failed in our efforts. I don’t want to fail again to achieve comprehensive immigration reform. We must prove we have the resources to secure our borders and use them, while respecting the dignity and rights of citizens and legal residents of the United States. When we have achieved our border security goal, we must enact and implement the other parts of practical, fair and necessary immigration policy. We have economic and humanitarian responsibilities as well, and they require no less dedication from us in meeting them.
Several years ago, the leading newspaper in my state published an article putting faces on the tragic human costs of illegal immigration, and I would like to briefly quote from it:
“Maria Hernandez Perez was No. 93. She was almost 2. She had thick brown hair and eyes the color of chocolate.
“Kelia Velazquez-Gonzales, 16, carried a Bible in her backpack. She was No. 109
“John Doe, No. 143, died with a rosary encircling his neck. His eyes were wide open.”
We can’t let immigrants break our laws with impunity. We can’t leave our borders undefended. But these people are God’s children, who wanted simply to be Americans, and we cannot forget the humanity God commands of us as we seek a remedy to this problem.
I spoke recently at both the NALEO and LULAC conferences, as did Senator Obama. I did not use those occasions to criticize Senator Obama. I would prefer not to do so today. But he suggested in his speeches there and here, that I turned my back on comprehensive reform out of political necessity. I feel I must, as they say, correct the record. At a moment of great difficulty in my campaign, when my critics said it would be political suicide for me to do so, I helped author with Senator Kennedy comprehensive immigration reform, and fought for its passage. I cast a lot of hard votes, as did the other Republicans and Democrats who joined our bipartisan effort. So did Senator Kennedy. I took my lumps for it without complaint. My campaign was written off as a lost cause. I did so not just because I believed it was the right thing to do for Hispanic Americans. It was the right thing to do for all Americans. Senator Obama declined t o cast some of those tough votes. He voted for and even sponsored amendments that were intended to kill the legislation, amendments that Senator Kennedy and I voted against. I never ask for any special privileges from anyone just for having done the right thing. Doing my duty to my country is its own reward. But I do ask for your trust that when I say, I remain committed to fair, practical and comprehensive immigration reform, I mean it. I think I have earned that trust.
Let me close by expressing my respect and gratitude for the contributions of Hispanic-Americans to the culture, economy and security of the country I have served all my adult life. I represent Arizona where Spanish was spoken before English was, and where the character and prosperity of our state owes a great deal to the many Arizonans of Hispanic descent who live there. And I know this country, which I love more than almost anything, would be the poorer were we deprived of the patriotism, industry and decency of those millions of Americans whose families came here from other countries in our hemisphere. Latinos are among the hardest working most productive people in our country. The strength of your religious faith and the strength and closeness of your families are a great force for social stability and individual happiness. In my recent visit to Mexico, I visited the Shrine of the Virgin of Guadalupe, and was greatly mov ed by the experience, and came to appreciate all the more your deep devotion to the God who created us and loves us all equally. I will honor your contributions to America for as long as I live. We would not be the special country we are without you.
I know many of you are Democrats, and many of you would usually vote for the presidential candidate of that party. I know I must work hard to win your votes, but you have always given me a respectful hearing, and I appreciate it. I know many of you were disappointed and hurt by those who used the debate on immigration last year, not to respectfully debate the issue, as most did, but to denigrate the contributions of Hispanics to our great country. I denounced those insults then, and I denounce them today. My friends, you know me. One of my proudest achievements as a politician is to have won 75 percent of the Hispanic vote in Arizona in my last re-election. I believe I’m the only member of the Senate to have twice won your Congressional Leadership Award, a distinction I am also very proud of. Senator Obama is a fine man, and an inspiring public figure. All Americans should be proud of his success. I also greatly admire Sena tor Hillary Clinton, and value her friendship. She, too, would have been a very worthy opponent. But I intend to compete for your votes by continuing to earn your trust.
When I was in prison in Vietnam, I like other of my fellow POWs, was offered early release by my captors. Most of us refused because we were bound to our code of conduct, which said those who had been captured the earliest had to be released the soonest. My friend, Everett Alvarez, a brave American of Mexican descent, had been shot down years before I was, and had suffered for his country much more and much longer than I had. To leave him behind would have shamed us. When you take the solemn stroll along that wall of black granite on the national Mall, it is hard not to notice the many names such as Rodriguez, Hernandez, and Lopez that so sadly adorn it. When you visit Iraq and Afghanistan you will meet some of the thousands of Hispanic-Americans who serve there, and many of those who risk their lives to protect the rest of us do not yet possess the rights and privileges of full citizenship in the country they love so well. To love your country, as I discovered in Vietnam, is to love your countrymen. Those men and women are my brothers and sisters, my fellow Americans, an association that means more to me than any other. As a private citizen or as your President, I will never, never do anything to dishonor our obligations to them and their families or to forget what they and their ancestors have done to make this country the beautiful, bountiful, blessed place we love.
Thank you.
Blowback
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SIMPLE ANSWER, EL STUPIDO…..
Get back in line with the legal applicants. The sooner you go an check out of this country at the border - sign your name, let us know that you were here and that you want to be a citizen - the sooner you will be in line. Then, get your former (legitimate and eligible) employer to be the first in line to sponsor you - after he has exhausted all other English speaking employee options, of course.
Then, learn or prove your proficiency in English in order to be finally approved!.
- I heard first hand from a middle class Mexican family that the best schools in La Raza country are taught in English only… which is what qualified their son for a full scholarship to the USA, AND, they (the parents) got a green card to here as well!!
So don’t give me any La Raza bullshit!!
I’m sick of it and I’ve had it with those assholes!!
Mcguyver on July 15, 2008 at 12:20 AM
Thanks, but no thanks, I have no desire to go back to Ireland, where my great, great grandfather and grandmother immigrated from. How do you say The Race in Irish?
You guys are too much, now you have a litmus test for being an American, if we don’t agree 100% (95% is not enough) then we are no longer a “proud American”.
Tell me, your grandparents called them Wops, and what did your parents call those JOOOOOS? Where did you learn such hatred, imagine I agree on everything but what to do with the working productive Immigrants, and you have declared we have “no f**king clue about real USA citizens”.
You guys crack me up…I just don’t understand how us conservatives lose votes with such great wisdom emanating from these blogs.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 12:21 AM
Yes. Every illegal is stealing from us. The most important thing he is stealing is a space in American society and he is causing these perversions of our own law, which is an incalculable cost to us.
By the way, how is an illegal owning a home, working and paying taxes without any papers? How does he have health care? He is illegal. How is he driving - or are you restricting this hypothetical to states that issue licenses to illegals (though that doesn’t cover a hundredth of the rest of the paperwork)? Or, are you just willing to overlook all this fraud, on top of everything else? What about Americans who were prosecuted for less fraud over the same periods? I hear “Equal Protection” arguments off in the distance …
In the end it is very simple - we have the right to choose exactly who we want to invite here, for what ever reasons we decide, and no one else has any right to be here. You give up this basic right and there will be nothing left.
progressoverpeace on July 15, 2008 at 12:26 AM
So that just makes you a weak kneed Irishman shilling for comprehensive immigration bullshit!
Go figure.. we have a weak kneed Irishmen here.
What else is new?
Mcguyver on July 15, 2008 at 12:26 AM
Do you know the difference between a racist and a bigot?
good
So now would you think it better to be called a racist or a bigot?
Okay, your right, one may be worse but they are both bad
Would we agree that either one is something not to be proud of?
I agree, so now you have the understanding of the first part of my post.
The second part you understood.
See, pretty easy when you take the time and read.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 12:27 AM
By the way.. I have some bagpipe music you can have…….. that should cheer you up.
Merry Christmas.
Mcguyver on July 15, 2008 at 12:29 AM
Dang what a cheesy thread this is fil;ed with pseudo-cons. Hollowpoint you beat me to it on this one
Now I see the problem with this thread. THere are two definitions of conservatives. Fake Bucnananite conservatives who read Kos and want immigration laws enforced, and real conservatives who value the illegal ‘Mexican’ commodity and want it to replace spoiled white kids. Not sure where real conservative stand on black kids.
Just white ones, or do you ship out black ones too? Glad you are not a racist.
You must puke when you read Michelle Malkin
entagor on July 15, 2008 at 12:34 AM
Every Illegal Alien Anchor Baby is stealing the American Dream of a college education from an American citizens’ kid…They are taking up space that should be allocated to American citizens…
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 12:39 AM
Are you in agreement that Mexico is a FAILED STATE?
DfDeportation on July 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM
For lack of time and space, yes. Maybe unfixable (if that’s a word).
right2bright on July 14, 2008 at 11:40 PM
Then THEY need to fix their problem and NOT at my expense..although I can sympathize while they still hate my guts…
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 12:43 AM
What’s that got to do with anything?
Did you even read my comments?
The entire foundation of your “argument” is nonsense. My point is that Pax Americana is on here calling immigration-enforcement commenters “bigots” at all. One is just as bad as the other. The only time I used the word racist was to invite Pax Americana to show where I claimed the two were synonyms. I extend the same invitation to you.
Either you:
a): have reading comprehension problems; or,
b): argue like a French regiment campaigns though a Parisian brothel.
jaime on July 15, 2008 at 12:45 AM
Once again, you make my point. You guys get your shorts all tangled without understanding what you are debating. You were, as I stated earlier, debating with yourself. Just weird.
I said, emphatically several times, if they are not breaking any laws (I actually used committed any crimes). I never said anything about overlooking fraud, you should read my words before arguing with me. So far we are now at about 98% common ground.
Do you want to secure the borders?
so do I and have stated from the beginning
Do you want to send bank all illegals who have broken the law?
So do I
Where we differ, is where we have allowed families to become established (yes I mean we the state). Now we suddenly say you can’t stay here, the past 3 or 5 or 10 years okay, but now you can’t. I see “squatter” rights problems.
I knew many who had bought homes, had health insurance, drivers license not so much. But if they were caught without a license, that is a criminal act…ship them out. Other words, the squeaky clean stay…
Here is the difference maybe…you see them crossing the border to seek a better life as being a criminal, I see it a a human trait as old as mankind. Crossing borders to make a better life, breaking down barriers, taking a risk. No different then the hundreds of people left dangling on barb wire along the Berlin wall.
I see the real criminal act as not being a good citizen, not wanting to be an American, not following the state and local laws of our land.
Just a different perspective…hardly a reason to call people names, it is just a different perspective.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 12:46 AM
The thing I don’t like is the Anti-American demagougery coming from The Dali Bama while supporting the criminal behavior of Illegal Alien chuntes…The Dali Bama continues to tell us that he is embarrassed of us, thus he does not deserve to be president….
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 12:47 AM
Illegal Immigration is a Crime
Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, “Improper Entry by Alien,” any citizen of any country other than the United States who:
• Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
• Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
• Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.
Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense.
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 12:49 AM
No the reading problem is you, I first brought up the word racist not to you, but to another poster because that is what poster was doing. Race baiting or bigotting, my only beef with you, is that you drug my name into your post for really no reason but to be obnoxious. I then responded to your unsolicited post.
So drop it…
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 12:49 AM
Fantasy land, not happen’n, can’t happen, with a highly nationalistic, ethnocentric foreign body supported with millions in tax and foundation funds that will never agree to any program that stifles the continuing flood of more ethnocentric, highly nationalistic foreign bodies bent on domination.
Still don’t Skippy and you haven’t done a lot to change that.
John, make up your mind how you’re going to act.
How much fantasy is supposed to be mixed up with near reality anyway?
Speakup on July 15, 2008 at 12:50 AM
Here is the difference maybe…you see them crossing the border to seek a better life as being a criminal, I see it a a human trait as old as mankind. Crossing borders to make a better life, breaking down barriers, taking a risk. No different then the hundreds of people left dangling on barb wire along the Berlin wall.
I see the real criminal act as not being a good citizen, not wanting to be an American, not following the state and local laws of our land.
Just a different perspective…hardly a reason to call people names, it is just a different perspective.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 12:46 AM
Nobody really cares how you “see it”, Illegal entry into the country is against the law…our fair, humane, generous, and compassionate immigration policy.
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 12:52 AM
So we now we know it is a misdemeanor…repeat could be a felony. Or are all federal crimes a felony…
So my solution of fining the ones who are here, is actually written in the law.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 12:53 AM
The Berlin Wall was to keep people “IN”. Our proposed Border Fence is to keep people out and keep our citizens safe…
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 12:54 AM
McCainiacs live on Mobius strips. They don’t understand the difference between ‘inside’ and ‘outside’. It’s kind of cute, actually.
progressoverpeace on July 15, 2008 at 12:58 AM
That explains much about McCain.
Until he gets rid of Hernandez from his “volunteer staff” I will not vote for him.
F15Mech on July 15, 2008 at 1:02 AM
Whatever, goodnight, I think you won’t get what you dream of. So you either settle for a compromise, or go whining into the sunset.
No way are we going to displace people who have built a life in America…no matter what you want.
So make a choice, complain about it, or learn to negotiate your terms and come to grips that everything you want, you can’t have…life ain’t fair.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 1:03 AM
I didn’t read all the comments in this thread, so I had no idea you were calling people “racist” to justify your criminal activity.
I suppose I’ll stop there, in case we’re still commenting here together over the years. Unless I’m wrong, and you really do think that people who want to enforce immigration laws are “racists”.
jaime on July 15, 2008 at 1:07 AM
• Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.
Ooooops! You forgot that part. Nope, Illegal Immigration IS a Federal Crime. Treating it as a misdemeanor is a recent phenomenon…
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 1:07 AM
OPEN BORDERS ZEALOTS who claim they want our laws enforced and our borders secured are NOT telling the truth…They say we should deport the ones who commit crimes…
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 1:09 AM
BTW, you think me saying that flenser pwn3d your argument was obnoxious?
jaime on July 15, 2008 at 1:10 AM
OPEN BORDERS AMNESTY ZEALOTS are willing to allow Illegal Alien chuntes to rape, kill, mame, and murder before they’ll arrest them and deport them or put them in jail….keep that in mind…
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 1:13 AM
I am so sick and tired of hearing liberals claiming that we need illegals. It has been proven time and time again that their negative impact far outweights the positives.
And don’t give me this “Texas used to be Mexico before Americans were here” crap either. Louisiana used to be France, and North America was once part of Pangaea. WHO FRIGGIN CARES about what the borders used to be like. We’ve had wars, legislation and trade and we have to live with REALITY.
Of course, we could always enact Mexico’s southern border laws. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, right? Some highlights:
Mexico has a single, streamlined law that ensures that foreign visitors and immigrants are:
* in the country legally;
* have the means to sustain themselves economically;
* not destined to be burdens on society;
* of economic and social benefit to society;
* of good character and have no criminal records; and
* contributors to the general well-being of the nation.
The law also ensures that:
* immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor;
* foreign visitors do not violate their visa status;
* foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country’s internal politics;
* foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported;
* foreign visitors violating the terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported;
* those who aid in illegal immigration will be sent to prison.
cannonball on July 15, 2008 at 1:47 AM
You want more?
Mexico welcomes only foreigners who will be useful to Mexican society:
* Foreigners are admitted into Mexico “according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress.” (Article 32)
* Immigration officials must “ensure” that “immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance” and for their dependents. (Article 34)
* Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets “the equilibrium of the national demographics,” when foreigners are deemed detrimental to “economic or national interests,” when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken Mexican laws, and when “they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy.” (Article 37)
* The Secretary of Governance may “suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when he determines it to be in the national interest.” (Article 38)
cannonball on July 15, 2008 at 1:48 AM
Even more…
Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country:
* Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)
* A National Population Registry keeps track of “every single individual who comprises the population of the country,” and verifies each individual’s identity. (Articles 85 and 86)
* A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91).
Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:
* Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)
* Foreigners who sign government documents “with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses” are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)
cannonball on July 15, 2008 at 1:49 AM
Again… these are MEXICO’S OWN LAWS. I’m not making this stuff up. So swallow up some of your own medicine and shut the hell up.
cannonball on July 15, 2008 at 1:50 AM
Anyway, I really logged in to say that I feel better about McCain now. It took some guts to stand up in front of La Raza and tell them he was going to secure the borders first, before “comprehensive immigration reform”. Some actual straight talk from the Maverick.
I’m back on board.
As far as the people here illegally now, I don’t have a problem with “amnesty” of or in itself. It really depends more on how it’s done whether I’ll have any difficulty accepting it when the time comes.
jaime on July 15, 2008 at 1:54 AM
Well, OK. But I’ve been to Mexico several times and I don’t recall ever having to show a visa, never been searched, never even been asked how long I’ll be there, where I’m staying, the purpose of my visit… you know, like you would normally expect when traveling abroad. I admit, it’s been a few years. Last time was around ‘01. Maybe it’s changed.
jaime on July 15, 2008 at 2:03 AM
AGAIN……..
…. poor, poor, pitiful ” the race “.
Seven Percent Solution on July 15, 2008 at 2:31 AM
To re-phrase…you don’t have a problem with “amnesty” as long as it is done correctly (what ever that means).
F15Mech on July 15, 2008 at 3:29 AM
You all have your methods for dealing with amnesty hombres like not2bright and his partner in crime PaxMexicana. I have a different method. Mine is better. I put a rope around their necks and put them up on a stool and then shoot the legs off the stool. Adios.
Tuco on July 15, 2008 at 3:43 AM
Tuco your references to The Good The Bad and The Ugly are starting to fail.
F15Mech on July 15, 2008 at 3:51 AM
I’m sorry…I’m so sick of hearing this load of BS. For over 125 years ANYONE coming into the country had to sign in and register themselves.
Granted, that’s quite a bit easier than having to go through a visa process et. al, but we also didn’t have a ludicrous income tax system that requires it (thanks FDR).
If they wanna dump the income tax system, I am all for going back to the sign in registry with a background check.
MannyT-vA on July 15, 2008 at 6:36 AM
No, I don’t think people who want to enforce laws are “racists” people who want “all Mexicans removed” or “all of your Mexicans” deported are bigots. Get it?
And before you call someone a criminal, don’t you think you should have some facts to back that up.
So I doubt we will have much a a time posting, as long as you are wrongfully calling someone a criminal to get your point across.
Good think their is a keyboard and a monitor between us, I guarantee you wouldn’t call me that to my face. You weasel.
You wrongly call someone a criminal behind a keyboard,
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 7:31 AM
No, you injecting yourself into the debate knowing this:
and then insinuating me a criminal, that is obnoxious. You should:
A. Read before you comment
B. Have some idea what you are talking about
C. When issuing disparaging remarks, back them up with facts
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 7:35 AM
So you want to hold Mexico up as an example of good Government…I think you should find a better example.
The slogan…”We want to be like Mexico”, just won’t sell…
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 7:39 AM
Where’s McCain’s lapel pin?
If he loves America he should be wearing one.
Dave Rywall on July 15, 2008 at 8:26 AM
And before you call someone a criminal, don’t you think you should have some facts to back that up.
So I doubt we will have much a a time posting, as long as you are wrongfully calling someone a criminal to get your point across.
Good think their is a keyboard and a monitor between us, I guarantee you wouldn’t call me that to my face. You weasel.
You wrongly call someone a criminal behind a keyboard,
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 7:31 AM
That’s why the popo do background checks for outstanding warrants and such on traffic stops. If there is a questionable license and no proof of insurance on a driver, cooperating under 287(g) is a good thing…
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 9:43 AM
You don’t think a person violating the above immigration policy is a criminal?
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 9:47 AM
I don’t want to make assumptions based upon what you revealed in this post, so I will pay you the respect of asking you directly:
You said you employed hundreds of workers, and you made it very clear that you preferred Mexican workers over American workers. I think it’s a fair question to ask:
Did you ever knowingly or “unknowingly” employ illegal aliens in your company?
Redhead Infidel on July 15, 2008 at 10:00 AM
McNumbnuts is a liar. His definition of immigration reform is amnesty and allowing even more H1-B high tech workers into the country to take OUR high paying jobs and drive OUR wages down.
Anyone who claims all the illegals can’t be sent back is telling you they won’t even try, and they are lying. Comprehensive immigration reform = H1-b visa costing $250,000.
American companies must be made to be good corporate citizens, to hire, train and keep American workers.
dogsoldier on July 15, 2008 at 10:16 AM
check out MM’s home page for more about this:
same old pandering from mcobama…
right4life on July 15, 2008 at 10:31 AM
Why does America owe current illegal aliens any easier path to citoienship than any offered before?
catmman on July 15, 2008 at 10:32 AM
Oh please, how can claim that illegals are “good citizens” when they broke the law to get here, lied to get employment often with fake documents, use social services without contributing to the tax base, and have no intention of ever assimilating into American culture?
It’s not a matter of namecalling just more of your rabid defense of the indefensible.
highhopes on July 15, 2008 at 10:38 AM
The Dream Act will kill McCain’s chance for beating Barry.
omnipotent on July 15, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Anyone ever wonder if McCain isn’t just a contrarian at heart? Maybe he just likes disagreeing with people.
TheUnrepentantGeek on July 15, 2008 at 12:06 PM
Here’s a site that will help you translate Gaelic to English.
Irish Dictionary Online
I believe “the race” in Gaelic would translate to: An cine
For German: das Rennen
moonsbreath on July 15, 2008 at 12:07 PM
Tell that to right2bright, who happily employed Mexicans because American workers weren’t good enough. It doesn’t look like being a “good corporate citizen” is a priority for employers like that.
I’m curious about r2br’s answer to my question above. He’s raised considerable questions about his own hiring practices. And such practices would explain much about why r2br is such an avid apologist for open borders.
Redhead Infidel on July 15, 2008 at 12:26 PM
Good, back to the main point - Why do you hate Africans and Asians? Why do you want to give the immigration spots reserved for Filipinos to Mexicans?
Jaibones on July 15, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Just one, a young woman from Guatemala, whose husband was taken out on the lawn, shot and killed and left there as a reminder to all not to talk about not voting the “right” way (he was an activist for freedom). She immediately sold everything to her relatives took her children and made it to the U.S. She worked for me. The day I hired her she wept and said all she and her husband wanted was freedom from tyranny. And when Reagan’s bill passed, I helped her gain legal status. Several years later she was re-married, and she and her children became citizens.
I will say it again, in 1986, the EEOC did not allow you to ask the questions that you needed to find out if someone was legal. There was no way to check SS #’s (pre internet, computers basically). Even the Orange County office had over a dozen illegals working for them.
So I hired,out of maybe a thousand in my lifetime, one illegal knowingly…and I would hire her again. Nobody should not be allowed to come to this country if their life and their children’s life is at stake. Others would rather see her and her children murdered then have her “cross” the border.
Unknowingly I hired many, hundreds, because with Reagan’s bill they came “out”. I contracted with a lawyer (because they were being ripped off by unscrupulous attorneys), and had the papers processed to make them legal, as per the law. One of my V.P.’s was illegal, from England, had no idea, but he was also granted, eventually, amnesty.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 1:23 PM
Excuse me, where did I say I hated Africans and Asians? Quite frankly I have only met about 3 Africans in my life.
You must be posting about someone else…take a rest.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 1:25 PM
Hello, this is why it is so difficult to post… I was talking about someone else calling me a criminal…read the post, then comment. Sheesh
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 1:28 PM
You see, this is where personal disagreements happen.
I never said American workers were not good enough, I said many of the Mexicans outworked the spoiled American kids. Now if you want to debate that, fine, but I doubt you will win.
If you were going to hire a janitor, and one would work for minimum wage and the other wanted $2 more per hour, and would not be as reliable, which one would you choose? (both are legal) Seeing as you have to maintain a profit to keep all of your employees working, I venture to say the one who would start at minimum wage would be your choice also.
Now if you needed an accountant, and one had a 6th grade education and spoke little English, and the other wanted $10 more per hour but was educated and spoke perfect English, which one would you hire? $10 (but only $8 because you are saving $2 on the other worker)…there, a lesson in business.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 1:39 PM
R2br, you gave an emotional and extreme anecdote and then said “Nobody should not be allowed to come to this country if their life and their children’s life is at stake. Others would rather see her and her children murdered then have her “cross” the border.” People who come here due to persecution and under dire threat of life are the smallest most minute portion of illegal immigrants. And we have a process in place for people whose lives are at stake to apply for sanctuary. But that tiny percentage does not represent the mass majority of illegal immigrants - and to represent otherwise is grossly misleading.
We wouldn’t rather see her murdered - and you know it. So why do you say such things?
We want our laws respected, followed, and enforced. Including those against hiring illegals in the first place. Most of the immigration problems we face today is because American employers have cheated - and broken the laws themselves.
I’m not surprised to hear that you employed hundreds of illegals. Not surprised at all. It explains a lot of your perspective on this issue. You can hardly be objective when you’ve broken the law yourself. You’re only lucky that Reagan’s ill-fated amnesty absolved you of the consequences.
Sorry, r2br, that may sound harsh - but it’s true.
Redhead Infidel on July 15, 2008 at 1:55 PM
The day I hired her she wept
And both of you became criminals.
I understand your argument. But it is wrong.
Extentuating circumstances do arise and there isn’t anyone who isn’t reasonable who recognizes special circumstances can be made. But they should be made within the law.
You did what you did, and obviously feel you were justified in your thinking. But trying to extrapolate “special circumstances” to millions of people is wrong
Additionally, American kids may indeed be “spoiled”, and you as an employer have every right to hire employees you feel would be reliable and give you the best “bang for your buck”. But again, it must be done within the law. Instead of working within the “system” to make it better, you chose to circumvent that system and make things worse.
This isn’t meant as an insult, so please don’t take it that way: Frankly, your actions are partially responsible for the mess we’re in now. And your continuing to break the law, regardless of what your justifications may be, exacerbates the problem and cheapens what it means to come to this country legally.
catmman on July 15, 2008 at 2:01 PM
.
THIS
.
SilverStar830 on July 15, 2008 at 2:07 PM
I don’t think anyone who comes here illegally should ever be given citizenship. That would be rewarding them. However the one compromise that I think would be reasonable would be to allow some to obtain legal permanent residence. No citizenship, but they would be able to stay here legally, “out of the shadows.”
Rose on July 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM
“That doesn’t sound like McCain was interested in a complete panderfest — and it gives more credence to his borders-first position.”
He knows that he can get more votes by pretending to be an advocate for ‘national security’ but panders unashamedly with his ‘immigration reform’ schtick. The La Raza, LULAC, etc, extremists won’t be happy until we have the so-called mythical homogenization of North America. Borders, we don’t need no stinking borders, hell, we don’t need no stinking US of A!
Sorry to repeat the same thing but: Juan can pander/lie to the Right all he wants by saying that he wants secure borders, but he hasn’t answered any questions regarding how he can do that since the Border Fence Bill has been gutted and will expire next year, (not to mention the real deal of the NAFTA Superhighway). It’s the old shell game, my friends…
Christine on July 15, 2008 at 3:06 PM
Rose has a good point and I have agreed with her until i realized that it would still attract the same kind of person who is fleeing their oppressed country and doesn’t want to or can’t go thru the hassle of learning the language, etc…therefore all the same burdens will plague our schools, jails, health care system, highways and courts.
I heard about a book that advocates no immigration at all for a period of time. Isolationist yes, but it seems necessary given the mess we’re in.
Christine on July 15, 2008 at 3:14 PM
Rose, these people are not hiding ‘in the shadows’. Many of them are in our face with a raised fist, demanding their ‘rights’. Please visit the border states. It will open your eyes to reality.
Christine on July 15, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Christine - excellent points, all.
I cannot take anyone seriously on National Security who isn’t completely serious about securing the border. That includes President Bush. Every time he talks tough on National Security, I laugh.
Likewise, I can’t take seriously any of the McCain supporters here who go on and on and on about the War being their only priority while they completely ignore the borders. There’s more than one way to conquer a nation - and to think Iraq is the only threat to our national security is shockingly short-sighted.
Redhead Infidel on July 15, 2008 at 3:18 PM
Christine, I live in Ventura County, Ca. I lived next door to a house full of illegals for a year. It was a nightmare. I’m not saying it isn’t serious, personally I would like to see all of them deported. But I don’t think that will ever happen. Too many people feel that would be inhumane. I’m just saying the only compromise that would be feasible to me would be to allow the ones who have made some kind of a life here to have permanent legal residence, no citizenship, no voting rights. And to get this they would have to be squeaky clean and have a sponsor.
Rose on July 15, 2008 at 3:41 PM
Also, I don’t think this should even be offered until a fence is built and anyone who comes illegally from this year forward will not be eligible for anything.
Rose on July 15, 2008 at 3:44 PM
How do you determine when an illegal came here? They’re ILLEGAL. They have no papers - none that we can trust.
No, if they’re illegally in the US they have to leave. Leaving is much easier for them than coming was. We saw this as laws were starting to be enforced and illegals made their way up to Canada. These are very mobile people - they are migrants.
In the end, these are not people without nations. They are citizens of countries and those countries are responsible for them, not us. What is so difficult about that?
progressoverpeace on July 15, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Fine with me, deport them all. I just don’t think it is going to happen.
Rose on July 15, 2008 at 3:56 PM
I do however think that the employers who have hired illegals should be put in jail. This would probably be the best deterrent of all. They are the ones who have created this problem, they should suffer the most.
Rose on July 15, 2008 at 3:59 PM
Sham. Photo op. Staged event. I guarantee it. Like Obama half-disowning that psycho preacher of his. Squabbles in pro wrestling have more sincerity than this so-called “dialogue”. McHamstercheeks is an honorless, pro-amnesty shill.
Spanglemaker on July 15, 2008 at 4:02 PM
If we made our mind up about this and gave a clear signal that they were unwelcome most would leave on their own. But too many are enticing them to stay and wait it out. I’m scared that they are going to get amnesty, eventually, so it makes sense to me that they are optimistic that they are going to get amnesty. That will be the start of the end of our Republic. All to alleviate some more delusional white-guilt and attempt to appear morally superior. Great.
progressoverpeace on July 15, 2008 at 4:03 PM
I think enforcing the laws and making the employers suffer would go a long way to making them feel unwelcome. I am certainly not saying they should be allowed to stay, like I said I live in an area where they are a real problem. I’m only saying that this would be the only compromise that would even be feasible. These people should never be allowed to obtain citizenship. Not under any circumstances.
Rose on July 15, 2008 at 4:07 PM
The only insult is your misreading or misunderstanding, please don’t take it personally.
I stand by my actions, that is what America was created for, the oppressed to come. And in that one–one instance, it was true. Like I said, and one person (and a correction, she was from El Salvador) nailed me so I guess they were wrong, some would have just as soon let her stay and be killed.
And where do you get “continuing to break the law”, that has been hinted at several times. So I guess you can just say someone is a criminal or breaking the law because you feel like it. That is a vigilante way of thinking.
That is why people like you and others, can’t be trusted, you call people criminals, without any hesitation and no proof…some Americans you have all shown, trial by desire.
You and others who call me a criminal are the ones cheapening our country…or do you believe our country was built on thinking someone is guilty because they don’t agree with you.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 4:15 PM
I understand your position. It’s just that once you start talking about allowing some to stay legally you open up a beaurocratic nightmare and lend credence to the legalization side of the issue. We have seen that the amnesty crowd is willing to be sneaky and underhanded in their attempts to impose their will on the US (their will to surrender our sovereignty, which our Founders would have punished quite mercilessly - I can’t even imagine what Polk would have done to any amnesty folks!).
You might mean to only legalize 3% of them, but that would turn out to be 83% of a larger group to include those rushing across post-haste to get in on the action, with help from the Mexican government, we can all be quite sure of.
Our sovereignty is the essence of our nation. Sovereignty must be defended, but in some cases it must be actively imposed to remind all. This is one of those cases. If we do not impose our sovereignty now, then we will lose it in the not-too-distant future. That’s how I see this situation.
progressoverpeace on July 15, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Well what have we here, I state I hired on illegal and you have now moved it to hundreds. When I hired the others I followed every bit of the law, don’t you get it? Every thing they asked of my business, we did. Did you know the hiring laws in 1985? Apparently not, you guys make it hard to post an honest statement, when you twist it and make lies out of it.
Like I said, even the EEOC ended up with over a dozen illegals, because they couldn’t ask the question or request the documents needed. Get it Now????Sheeesh.
So now, how about retracting your untrue statement.
that may sound harsh - but it’s true.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 4:22 PM
So what is your solution? Is it possible to convince enough people in congress to prevent any thing passing that would allow some of these people to stay? I totally agree with you, I just don’t think enough people in power agree with you. They will seek some compromise. The fence needs to be built now and they won’t even get that done.
Rose on July 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM
I’m sorry, my comments were for progressoverpeace.
Rose on July 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM
To stand firm on no amnesty.
If it isn’t, then the US is on the way to the end.
That’s true, but the people in power are pliable enough to be convincible. It takes threats to their political positions. Real threats. We are losing, so far, but it depends on how much airing the illegal issue gets in the election. I’m not optimistic about this situation, at all.
Yeah, it’s a sad situation. It is probably going to take a couple of big rallies to really get the pols to start to understand that they cannot hide this away. I mean BIG rallies. There’s enough money coming from amnesty supporters (or those who aren’t bothered by it) to take the financial threat away.
I just fear that Western society, and American society in particular, has grown too hyper-sensitive and guilt-ridden (for no good reason, as the West and America have done more for the world than anyone else) to defend itself. We feel bad when we rightly enforce our own reasonable laws. That’s a tough thing to fight.
Just for fun, there is one simple solution to this problem (though this will not be implemented). That is to give Americans full rights to their citizenship, which means the right to sell it, subject to the same security checks of the buyer that we have with immigrants. US citizenship is probably worth upwards of $300,000 - considering how much people are willing to do and pay just to be illegally in the US or get fake papers. This would be the biggest asset that many Americans have and they would be quick to notice when anyone does anything that causes that price to drop, such as printing up tons of US legal residencies and citizenships to distribute to anyone and everyone.
But this, unfortunately, is not going to happen, though it is the best solution.
progressoverpeace on July 15, 2008 at 4:47 PM
I’m not going to waste my time with a weasel who will try to nitpick semantics to argue that in the context of this discussion “bigot” means something other than “racist”. You know full well the two words are interchangeable, as does anyone who read your post. Your argument is reminicent over the question over whether “sexual relations” includes a BJ from an intern.
Your obvious intent was to portray anyone who disagrees with McCain’s immigration policy being motivated by racism (i.e. bigotry). Don’t pretend otherwise, and don’t try to label others as “trolls” when you employ the very same ad-hominem tactics.
Hollowpoint on July 15, 2008 at 4:48 PM
R2br, you said: “Unknowingly I hired many, hundreds, because with Reagan’s bill they came out.” And after the fact, you contracted with an attorney to follow the paperwork to get them amnesty. What did I not understand about your own statement? You yourself said that you “unknowingly” hired hundreds of illegals.
Redhead Infidel on July 15, 2008 at 4:52 PM
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 4:15 PM
OK, I was extremely respecful to you and what you wrote. You chose to attack instead of address what I wrote in my post.
You said you hired an illegal alien. You admitted it. When you did that, you became a criminal.
I made the point that by doing what you did, you helped exacerbate the problem we have now. I also made the point that you can jsutify your actions to yourself in any way you wish, but it doesn’t change the fact that you broke the law.
I made the point, using your example, that there are indeed extenuating cirumstances in certain cases and that no one would advocate for sending anyone back somewhere where they would be murdered.
And this sentence of yours, “So I guess you can just say someone is a criminal or breaking the law because you feel like it.” makes absolutely zero sense. I stated no such thing. I said you were a criminal becasue YOU said YOU hired an illegal alien - not because I felt like it.
And then this: “That is why people like you and others, can’t be trusted, you call people criminals, without any hesitation and no proof…” What? Again, you admitted you broke the law, hence my accusation and dare I say “proof”?
I crafted a comment based on what you wrote. I didn’t pick any accusation from thin air.
So where exactly am I wrong in my response to you? We can agree to disagree on immigration; no skin off my teeth whatsoever.
Or do you simply enjoy being a horse’s ass when it really isn’t necessary?
catmman on July 15, 2008 at 5:09 PM
And you wonder why someone would attack you…look at your post.
So when you run a red light, you are now a criminal? If you did not pay exactly 100% of what you owe in taxes, you are a criminal? Ever speed over the limit…well look what we have, a criminal.
Sheeeesh, you guys should be embarrassed, what are you trying to prove?
I think the horse’s ass is on your shoulders.
You see, you are the one who said:
Guess that makes you a criminal can’t just make those kind of statements without facts…but then you don’t believe in courts, you just say “continuing to break the law”. A typical vigilante response.
Here let me give you another example:
Your words, now tell me, is offering political asylum against the law or within the law?
The Immigration and Nationality Act defines “refugee” in Sec. 101(a)(42) as:
So, when the 1986 Reagan bill came up, no need to file, but she was given asylum, which is why she obtained citizenship so quickly…except in your court, you just make judgments based on feelings.
If you knew what you were talking about, the immigration form had a check box for asylum…man you guys are so eager to prosecute, so eager to convict…that is why people like you can’t ever have control of the government, no different then the left wing extremists…both ready to convict without all the facts.
And no, long ago I learned people like you never apologize for misstating the facts…never.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 7:12 PM
Why don’t you understand the word unknowingly? You see when I hired them (as I have explained), they met all of the requirements of legal status that the state imposed on us.
Now here is where it gets tricky for you…unknowingly, they were illegals. The state didn’t know, I didn’t know, the EEOC did not know, immigration did not know…until after Reagan bill was issued and they could come out.
If someone hands you a counterfeit bill, and you unknowingly take it, are you now a criminal?
If someone hands you a fake SS card and you take it are you now a criminal?
Get it?….sheeesh
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 7:22 PM
Surely you’ll support the E-VERIFY program, yes?
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 7:50 PM
Just say NO to open borders. Close em up, monitor them, send illegals back home, and charge a boatload of money to people who hire them (yes some places know for a fact they hire illegals..some even know what street to go pick them up at for the day). It’s REALLY not that hard of a concept. We need to know who is in our country and that the people we bring in, aren’t going to leech off of us and work towards making a better America. Illegals cost we taxpayers in the state of california a ton of money and they are bankrupting us while people battle back and forth on how mean the USA is to protect itself.
I can only hope that Mccain means this.
diaphanous on July 15, 2008 at 7:50 PM
In California, we have a STRUCTURAL BUDGET DEFICIT of $10 Billion annually…all due to taxpayer benefits distributed to Illegal Alien chuntes and their Anchor Babies…
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 8:00 PM
R2br, you said: “Unknowingly I hired many, hundreds, because with Reagan’s bill they came out.” And after the fact, you contracted with an attorney to follow the paperwork to get them amnesty. What did I not understand about your own statement? You yourself said that you “unknowingly” hired hundreds of illegals.
Redhead Infidel on July 15, 2008 at 4:52 PM
C’mon…he knowingly hired them…don’t be stupid…
DfDeportation on July 15, 2008 at 8:02 PM
I have never understood the whole anchor baby allowance. It seems simple to me, if you are here illegally, your baby you just had is not granted automatic citizenship. They really need to tighten up those loopholes.
One of the news shows had an expose YEARS ago on some employers knowing full well they were hiring illegals, skipping paperwork and even at times helping them falsify it, picking them up and paying them under the table..etc. This was before all this border fiasco.
diaphanous on July 15, 2008 at 8:05 PM
One thing I do know back in the day our forefathers would not have supported all this government given handouts. They’d have made them pull their own weight…something we seem to have no concept about on a political level.
diaphanous on July 15, 2008 at 8:09 PM
It’s kinda funny that every time you are called on your assertions you provide more “facts”. No mention of asylum from you previously. You said you hired an illegal. You didn’t say you hired a political refugee. I don’t see how your not mentioning any context is anyone else’s fault but yours, but…
And yes, I would wonder why I was attacked. I simply replied to what you wrote. I do see your point, but it is more nuanced than is necessary for this argument.
What your basically saying is that if a tree falls in the woods and no one sees it, did it happen? It’s a logical fallacy.
I may not know all of the particulars of your specific situation, true. But given the facts you provided, what I said was pretty spot on. So there is nothing for me to apologize for on that front. Your omission, whether by accident or design was the problem.
People like me honestly and openly state their opinions and address others’ inconsitencies so there is as little confusion in a debate as possible.
I do need to apologize to you for the name calling. It was uncalled for.
With that said, it is unfair for you to castigate dissenters to your comments when you failed to offer proper context or clarification; especially when said clarification comes after your engaged.
catmman on July 15, 2008 at 8:33 PM
Like I said, the vigilante mentality…a woman was raped, let’s find us a Mexican to hang.
You are what destroys freedom, destroys America, you have your own justice, and you don’t need proof. No different, as I pointed out, to the extreme left.
Thanks for a great post, you made my point explicitly, better then I could ever.
right2bright on July 15, 2008 at 10:51 PM
Why do you think I used her as an example, think about it…it showed your worst bigotted side. You, without all the facts, and others, were calling her and me a criminal…never stopping and thinking why I would use this one example. And you continue with this:
Well next time, stop and gather facts, or ask a few questions…or is it easier to “hunt” those Mexicans down. Vigilantes, more interested in your little view of the world, then Americas freedom, Americas laws,
As I said, your kind never apologizes, never…the Mexican could be hanging from a tree, and you would say, “well with the facts that I had, I thought the Mexican was guilty”.
You are what makes America weak, you are just pa