Timetables for Iraq?
posted at 10:55 am on July 9, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
The elected government of Iraq wants a timetable for American withdrawal as a condition of a security agreement, and the result could be an American withdrawal by 2011, according to a spokesman for the Maliki government. The Bush administration has thus far resisted a timetable commitment to withdrawal, but the changed circumstances may give both nations an opening for a reconceptualization of the partnership:
A deadline should be set for the withdrawal of U.S. and allied forces from Iraq, and the pullout could be done by 2011, an Iraqi government spokesman said Tuesday.
A deadline should be set for the withdrawal of U.S. and allied forces from Iraq, and the pullout could be done by 2011, an Iraqi government spokesman said Tuesday. …
But in Washington, State Department spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos said U.S. negotiators are “looking at conditions, not calendars.”
“Two things we’ve made very clear from the beginning of the process — the first is that we’re going to deal as sovereign nations working towards an agreement that satisfies both of our needs, and secondly that we’re not going to be discussing individual parts of this negotiations during the negotiation process itself,” Gallegos said.
Democrats have begun licking their chops over this development. Harry Reid said that Democrats wanted timetables all along, and that he welcomes Iraqi agreement on this point. However, the call for timetables in 2004-6 are hardly analogous to the situation today — when timetables have begun to make more sense.
Reid is being disingenuous in his statement. Democrats wanted timetables for withdrawal in order to surrender in Iraq, not after Iraqi security and stability had been achieved. Not even the Iraqis want the US out that quickly, nor on a 16-month schedule offered by Barack Obama. They want American troops to leave when they foresee their own army and internal security forces achieving the necessary strength to keep Iraq secure, internally and externally, and not before.
It’s the difference between discussing withdrawal timetables from Europe in 1944 and 1946.
Dabbagh also said that the two sides are approaching a middle ground, and that the primary concern is Iraqi sovereignty — as it should be. The Iraqis should stand on their own, but that doesn’t mean that America cannot be their partner. A security arrangement that benefits and respects both nations is in the collective interest, and we should applaud Iraqi efforts to establish themselves as an independent and stable nation capable of its own defense.
The reason we eschewed timetables in the past is to keep terrorists of all stripes from using a withdrawal to topple the Baghdad government. That situation has passed, and by 2011 will be a faded memory. Once we have cleared Mosul and its environs of al-Qaeda and ensured that the militias have disbanded or run out of Iraq, we will have transitioned to a peacetime presence, and timetables do not carry the same strategic and tactical risks, especially in the longer timeframes mentioned in this negotiation.
Rick Moran makes the point here:
The Iraqis want our combat forces to leave in an orderly fashion by withdrawing troops using a timetable that will be mutually agreed upon. What’s not to like in this?
Well, if you’re President Bush or John McCain, you have a political problem in that you have opposed a timetable being attached to our withdrawal for years. But that was Democrats setting arbitrary timetables not the sovereign nation of Iraq giving their problematic allies a graceful way to exit with honor and a true “Mission Accomplished.”
Saddam is gone. His WMD programs are history. The Iraqi army has proven in Basra, in Sadr City, and most especially in Mosul that they are capable of handling the security of the country (internal). The police – while still a large problem as far as corruption – performed quite well in Mosul also.
Just what is it we are still needed for?
I’d say the Iraqis will need American military assistance for logistical support and training for the next several years — but it won’t take 135,000 troops to complete that mission. We also could use our forces there to assist in badly-needed infrastructural improvements, a mission that would strengthen the bonds of friendship between Iraq and the US and make democracy much more stable. That also would take a lot less than 135,000 troops. Rick suggests 20,000 or so, which I think is an underestimate, but it wouldn’t take an order of magnitude more than that.
We accused opponents of the war of being unrealistic when they demanded a timetable for withdrawal before victory was achieved. Politically, at least, it’s unrealistic of mission supporters to remain obstinately opposed to timetables after the victory has been secured. In the end, we have to respect the wishes of the Iraqis if we want them to be true partners in the region. Thankfully, they have the strength to be just that, thanks to the tenacity of the Bush administration.










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Maybe it is a light at the end of the tunnel. I hope so. But when the troops go home, the media the people better be out in force to congratulate them on a victory well won. No more of this silence over success.
p40tiger on July 9, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Although Iraq is no winner for him, Reid will now say or do anything to draw attention away from the energy debacle that is falling in on his head. I wouldn’t want to be any elected candidate right now, or candidate not pushing for immediate drilling everywhere.
Expect a lot more gay in the military/Social security stuff.
JiangxiDad on July 9, 2008 at 11:03 AM
Maliki also knows that the US pulling out too fast or too soon will just bring back the Iranians, the militias, maybe even al Qaeda. The premature British pullout from Basra was a lesson for all.
Wethal on July 9, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Semantics.
Bush always said he would keep the troops there until Iraq became stable and was able to protect and govern itself.
That was a timetable, in that it takes time to get from Point A to Point B.
fogw on July 9, 2008 at 11:06 AM
The dems seem to think they have a winner here, saying they have always pushed for timetables.
Difference is, they always wanted timetable regardless of the situation on the ground and Bush has always relied on conditions on the ground, which, in itself in a timetable of sorts, as fogw says.
Key point is, one party cares about the result, one doesn’t.
cntrlfrk on July 9, 2008 at 11:09 AM
And, one way or another, the Iranian bomb issue will be settled by then, but, I can’t see Maliki being happy with no U.S. in the country if Iran is successful and is the big dog in the neighborhood.
a capella on July 9, 2008 at 11:14 AM
The Bushies have been declaring victory in Iraq since 2003, cnt.
You can’t blame the Dems for taking them at their word.
Or is the latest lull in Iraq somehow different than the previous ones that were called “victory”?
alphie on July 9, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Mitt Romney is twitching uncontrollably right now
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 11:16 AM
What I’ve read is not that Iraqi’s want to say “On Jan 1st allUS troops are out”. its that their idea of a specific date for withdrawl is something akin to the date when the last province is turned over to Iraqi control. What date is that? No one knows but it still makes it a conditional withdrawal. Here is what I’m talking about.
Zaggs on July 9, 2008 at 11:17 AM
It is a winner argument for the Dems with the public. The plebs have no idea of the difference between strategy and tactics. To them they are one in the same. Details are boring.
Limerick on July 9, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Very different, but you would not know anything about that since you believe whatever the DUers tell you.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 11:17 AM
U.S. negotiators are “looking at conditions, not calendars.”
Why do lefties want us outta there so bad anyway? The war is over, the fighting is done. Their arguement was that our Troops were getting killed, but now they’re not, so what’s the problem THIS week? Why don’t they want us to withdraw from Germany? Japan? Korea? It’s all about being right or wrong. They’ll never admit they were wrong about Iraq.
Tony737 on July 9, 2008 at 11:22 AM
I don’t see the big deal. It seems reasonable for the Iraqis to set up a plan for total transition, and if the plan needs to be modified down the road, so be it.
To cling to the idea that a timetable has no value for planning the future is a little paranoid.
Goals can be good, and changes can be made.
What am I missing?
saiga on July 9, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Don’t hold your breath.
TheUnrepentantGeek on July 9, 2008 at 11:25 AM
It’s more likely the media will for the “success” part and give credit to Obama for pulling the troops out.
Ortzinator on July 9, 2008 at 11:29 AM
i suspect most of us are a little concerned the donks will hijack credit for the Iraqi suggestion of timetables by claiming they were right all along. A fair number of voters may buy it.
a capella on July 9, 2008 at 11:30 AM
The “Mission Accomplished” banner was a reference to the USS Abraham Lincoln finishing its 10-month operation. I know it probably won’t interest you, but here’s what he said:
Operations against the Iraqi government did end then. We’ve spent the last few years establishing the Iraqi government and securing the nation.
amerpundit on July 9, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Take it a step further. Dems wanted out when 3 of the 18 benchmarks were met. They wanted to withdraw. Bush wanted to withdraw when 18-of-18 were met. We are at 15-of-18 being satisfactory.
So, when all 18 are met, it is time to withdraw the bulk of the forces.
Bush stuck to the goal of meeting the 18, Dems never cared about the 18, they just wanted out and wanted an American defeat.
WoosterOh on July 9, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Since Muslims prefer killing one another (see: female suicide bombers in Iraq, Indian embassy in Afghanistan, and Turkish US embassy, ad nauseam), the sooner we can withdraw the better.
In an orderly and secure manner, leave them to sort out their 1400 year old religious schisms.
AND HIT ANY FUTURE TROUBLEMAKERS FROM THE AIR (predator drones, cruise missiles, stealth bombers, warthogs, et al) ONLY.
profitsbeard on July 9, 2008 at 11:35 AM
“few years” Ameri?
Try 5+ years.
There have been longer pauses in violence in our 7 year war in Afghanistan, squid.
And Iraqis are still being slaughtered at a rate that would cause the American right to panic if they were Americans dying.
Iraqis are still experiencing about a 9/11 every few weeks.
Mission Accomplished!
alphie on July 9, 2008 at 11:37 AM
Dems … just … wanted an American defeat. – Wooster
Exactley right, because they hate Bush more than they love America. Party comes before country to these leftist traitors. They’d rather lose a war and win an election than win a war and lose an election.
Tony737 on July 9, 2008 at 11:38 AM
Afganistan has been a piecemeal operation from the beginning, with fewer troops and less presence, so yeah.
Apples to Oranges alphie.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 11:40 AM
Then we’ve spent the last 5 years securing the nation and establishing a government. As for civilian casualties, it’s very sad. But the numbers are down significantly, those responsible for most of the casualties are being beaten back badly, and there are regularly-published stories of Iraqis returning to normal life.
Got news for you: If we had left when you and your buds wanted, we’d be lucking at a much worse situation. By the NYT own admission, the withdrawal could easily have lead to ethnic cleansing and a terrorist safe-haven.
amerpundit on July 9, 2008 at 11:42 AM
Mohammed nails it here:
Most famous Arab slogan after the stupid moving caravan dog barking:
“Me against my brother. My brother and I against my cousin. My cousin against the outsider.”
I really wish I was wrong about this stuff. But pessimism about human nature pays off in predictions. I’m afraid it’s back to nearly square one after we leave. We will have emboldened the Shia and put them in power but overall Sunni dominance in the Arab world will soon reassert itself.
Beagle on July 9, 2008 at 11:46 AM
[fogw on July 9, 2008 at 11:06 AM]
Agreed.
Sovereignty was an ultimate objective, but throughout the period after the Saddam was overthrown, the primary concern was security and one can see that if one looks at the rhetoric by Iraqi’s in government to it sounded like Dem rhetoric for leaving Iraqis to their own devices would be implemented.
That primary concern for security was addressed and another has risen on the list.
I agree with what you say wrt to this, Ed, and the reason for the extended timetable if not quantity of troops. One thing that I thin lies hidden in this discussion vis-a-vis timetables is that, not to their knowledge, Iraqi’s while not having learned these aspects, they have internalized the desire to know it and learn it, regardless of how it is achieved.
The Iraqi’s may not want to think like Americans, but they sure do want to think like the American military.
Dusty on July 9, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Ameri,
I think Iraq would be better off if we’d pulled out in 2003.
And we’d have had an extra trillion dollars to spend on things that actually matter to America.
I doubt Maliki will win next year’s elections.
Look for someone who demonizes America and loves Iran to take over Iraq next year no matter what we do.
Probably some al Sadr stooge.
alphie on July 9, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Well as soon as you and your buds build a time machine, give me a ring. Until then, many Democrats even supported the invasion in 2004. Dean himself congratulated the president in December ’03 for his actions.
In 2006, when Democrats took over and demanded withdrawal, it was too late to go back and fix what was done in ’03. The only option was to continue or retreat. Retreat would’ve left ethnic cleansing.
amerpundit on July 9, 2008 at 11:56 AM
Well, if you are right, they have had their chance to move forward and have rejected it, which will reinforce the concept that Arabs, or Muslims, or whatever, are doomed to remain in the third world. I’m a bit more optimistic in thinking that they have enjoyed some of the benefits of western ways in doing things as the conflict unfolded and don’t want to go backwards. But, that is something they will have to decide on their own. Can the secularists hold their own against the religious extremists in politics? No one knows at this point.
a capella on July 9, 2008 at 12:03 PM
Wow, that 100 years went by so fast!
Seriously though, will McCain and the rest of the “just like South Korea” crowd throw the permanent base idea under the bus? I noticed that there was no mention of that in Ed’s piece.
What about the impending genocide? No mention of that hysteria either. I guess the factions have suddenly found common ground?
You guys can spin this as some evidence of “victory”, but I saw it as inevitable. The Iraqis have favored a timetable all along, and I’m sure it never occurred to you guys that the reason why we’ve encountered so much resistance there for so long is related to the fact that the administration had been so opposed to it.
ChenZhen on July 9, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Which Obama indicated would not be a problem for him. Would it have been O.K. with you too, alphie? it was a problem for you in Yugoslavia, wasn’t it?
a capella on July 9, 2008 at 12:07 PM
Genocide is a fear when we leave before the job is done. You know what else is missing from Ed’s post? This part via CNN:
Iraqis are talking about a pull-out in “three, four or five” years. We’ve currently accomplished 15 of 18 benchmarks. When Democrats wanted out, we had barely accomplished 3.
amerpundit on July 9, 2008 at 12:11 PM
As for “hysteria”? Here’s the New York Times:
And John Burns of the same paper:
amerpundit on July 9, 2008 at 12:14 PM
I suspect the need for a permanent base will be gone long before that timetable kicks in. The Iranian bomb issue will be decided within the next year.
a capella on July 9, 2008 at 12:18 PM
alphie on July 9, 2008 at 11:37 AM
According to icasualties summary for “Iraqi Security Forces and Civilian Deaths” you would need to count back to about mid-February this year to equal a 9/11.
I suppose, though, that you also supplement that with an undercount of native Iraqi’s killing, kidnapping, thieving, blackmailing, extorting and generally oppressing their fellow citizens, under the banner of fighting their government(or, better yet, driving out the infidels) that have died, so you may be right.
I hope you don’t mind if I side with the majority of Iraqi’s, though.
Dusty on July 9, 2008 at 12:19 PM
So let me get this straight … when the dems called for a timetable it was a defeat, when the Iraqis call for one it is victory and a job well done?
GOP … “We don’t flip flop, we evolve”.
Monkei on July 9, 2008 at 12:39 PM
I think Iraq would NOT have been better off if we’d pulled out in 2003. I think the sectarian violence would have allowed the Islamic State of Iraq (formerly Al Qaeda in Iraq) to become the strongest power in the country.
I think it would have become such a mess that we would have had to go back in and spend out trillion dollar savings anyway.
BohicaTwentyTwo on July 9, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Monkei:
“So let me get this straight … when the dems called for a timetable it was a defeat, when the Iraqis call for one it is victory and a job well done?”
So, would you say getting off an airplane at 30,000 feet is the same as getting off when it’s landed?
JM Hanes on July 9, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Iraq will need some Amrican Air Power and armor for years before they have enough to keep Turkey, Iran or Syria from being a threat to invade. Right now Iraq has an airforce of a few helicopters, limited numbers of tanks and little artillery. Ground troops they can supply themselves. The Kurds understand this and so do a lot of Sunnis and Shia.
KW64 on July 9, 2008 at 1:04 PM
When Dems called for a timetable it was a cowardly act for political gain. Period.
Maybe you should read up a little. Unlike the Dems, the Iraqi government is asking for a drawdown of American troops against a timetable that will not play havoc with their nation’s sovereignty or security. They are looking at a 3-5 year timetable, and only if conditions are right.
This is in direct contrast to the Dems timetable which centered on ….. get out now, run for the hills, people are dying, it’s turned into a civil war, things will never improve, the surge is a waste of time, we’re screwed and Bush is stupid.
fogw on July 9, 2008 at 1:13 PM
Yes,
That is correct.
The whole point of this exercise was to get the Iraqi govt to tell us when they are ready for us to leave.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 1:15 PM
I’ve not heard anyone stating that we should stay in Iraq beyond when Iraqis want us to leave, or don’t need us anymore.
As far as permanent bases, it’s always been with the understanding, if the Iraqis agree to it. I think it would be a good idea to have bases there, but that’s an opinion, not an inflexible policy (like exiting Iraq no matter what the conditions.) If it makes sense for our national security, we should try to negotiate for bases, if it doesn’t we don’t.
Keith_Indy on July 9, 2008 at 1:20 PM
We’ll stand down when the Iraqis can stand up for themselves, and that time (thanks to the U.S. Military!!!) is thankfully drawing near.
A democratic state in the Middle East that is an American ally………………Bush, you magnificent bastard!
omnipotent on July 9, 2008 at 1:40 PM
400,000
That’s how many we had in Germany during the post war reconstruction period. Of course, part of those were facing the Russians, but not in the beginning.
I would say that the number of troops for a more significant and focused reconstruction will depend on how much you want to get done by when and how much you want to give it to the Iraqis to figure out.
Kat_Mo on July 9, 2008 at 2:14 PM
yes, that reminds me.
With a timetable for withdrawal set by Iraq, that means we can have a VI (victory in Iraq) day with an accompanying parade. Yes?
Kat_Mo on July 9, 2008 at 2:16 PM
I wondered the same. Ed didn’t explicitly mention it, but the article seems to. Moreover, as a capella said above, a base might no longer be necessary if the Iran threat is off the table.
The State Dep’t spokesman said:
Genocide averted. The good guys are mopping up now. We won. Sorry to have to tell you the bad news Chen. You can commiserate with Al-Qaeda.
.
Yes Chen. You’re absolutely right. We lost. Iran took over Iraq. Most of our soldiers were killed. The lucky ones got out on the last camel.
Link or slink. Or do we just take your word for it?
JiangxiDad on July 9, 2008 at 2:23 PM
Dusty,
Iraq has less than 1/10th of our population.
Every 300 Iraqi civilians killed = one 9/11 to them.
Recalculate…and imagine America if we were suffering through a 9/11 every few weeks.
Victory?
alphie on July 9, 2008 at 2:31 PM
We will probably be down to 12 combat brigades by the end of the year. (3 Divs)
The IA is currently forming their 15th, 16th and 17th Divisions.
We will probably be down to 7 by the end of 2009.
The only reason it will be this long is we are using our combat brigades as partner units for new IA formations in combat operations. (OJT) also, the IA does not have sufficient Engineers or any Field Artillery yet. Those are planned for 2009/10.
By 2011, the Iraqi ground force should be built to sufficient levels. We will be down to covering the air bases and providing Air Defense. Training the IZAF is the long pole. 2018/20 before they can do that alone…
DJ Elliott on July 9, 2008 at 2:35 PM
If the Iraqis are talking about 2011 or 2012, that’s at least three years from now, or twice as long as Obama’s timetable. If the current (post-Saddam) Iraqi government is our ally, why should we pull out faster than THEY want us to?
Steve Z on July 9, 2008 at 2:35 PM
That claim is absurd as I have never heard anyone call for “Surrender in Iraq”.
MB4 on July 9, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Harry Reid calls the war lost, and calls for withdrawing US forces.
Yes, they didn’t say “surrender in Iraq,” but they sure weren’t calling for victory in Iraq either. So, you make the logical leap about what they were calling for.
Keith_Indy on July 9, 2008 at 3:18 PM
IMO, an Iraq timetable would be a massive mistake!
Past PC politicians have screwed up every conflict we’ve ever been in. Not to be outdone, the Harry Reid’s and Nancy Pelosi’s are trying their damnedest to screw a victory in Iraq too!
byteshredder on July 9, 2008 at 4:05 PM
Ameri,
I think Iraq would be better off if we’d pulled out in 2003.
And we’d have had an extra trillion dollars to spend on things that actually matter to America.
I doubt Maliki will win next year’s elections.
Look for someone who demonizes America and loves Iran to take over Iraq next year no matter what we do.
Probably some al Sadr stooge.
alphie on July 9, 2008 at 11:52 AM
The shame is you will be happier if this happens so as to be able slam Bush, more than if Iraqis do run a legitimate country and start the renaissance for the middle east.
Sonosam on July 9, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Accusing those who think we should leave Iraq of being for “surrender” is simular to calling those who do not believe in Al Gore’s Apocolyiptic Global Warming, “deniers” or calling those who do not believe in “affermitive action” racists or calling those who do not belive in McCain/Kennedy “Immigration reform”, “nativists”.
It’s all the same show, just under a different tent.
MB4 on July 9, 2008 at 6:40 PM
By that “logic” a doctor is shameful if he diagnosis a patient with cancer instead of lying to him.
“renaissance for the middle east”. LOL.
MB4 on July 9, 2008 at 6:46 PM
Beware the Dolchstosslegende redux.
MB4 on July 9, 2008 at 6:51 PM
Good post Ed.
Terrye on July 9, 2008 at 7:14 PM
When our forces have not been driven out by enemy action or overrun, but the dems insist on a withdrawal anyway, aren’t they advocating giving up? That, boys and girls, is surrender.
Really, it’s not that hard to understand.
jl on July 9, 2008 at 8:13 PM
This is good news. I was starting to wonder if HA was going to kick it around. This has been the end game for a long time, a free Iraq that is capable of defending it’s self. I for one have no problem doing on the Iraq government’s time table. Once Iraq is providing for their own security, the victory is complete, and it’s time to get the hell out of Dodge. WE are still years from that, getting out of Dodge part, but everything starts with the first real discussion of an idea.
Hog Wild on July 9, 2008 at 8:24 PM
If you view the Islamic nation building as some kind of sports event and/or are into Dolchstosslegende redux.
MB4 on July 9, 2008 at 8:57 PM
“renaissance for the middle east”. LOL.
MB4 on July 9, 2008 at 6:46 PM
I stand by it.
When the soviets fell a great number of the countries that fell under their oppression have had promising entry into the free world.
And, they are generally supporters of efforts against tyranny being fresh from such a state.
What do they know?, right?
You bet,
a free Iraq smack dab in the middle of the middle east can quite possibly create the setting for a rennaisance.
Sonosam on July 9, 2008 at 9:46 PM
So with all the $hit in the Islamic world you just know there has got to be a pony around there someplace.
Islam and renaissance are at war with each other.
MB4 on July 9, 2008 at 10:42 PM
This is off topic, but Allah, I just had a prayer answered. My grandson just returned from Afghanistan. He was wounded and he did not tell me until he returned to the U.S., because he did not want me to worry. He is going to be OK, but I am now really worried about my son. I cannot wait until he gets home.
Johan Klaus on July 9, 2008 at 11:10 PM
Didn’t Commander Bush say something to the effect: “if the Iraqi’s want us to leave, we’ll leave”? And what is all this crap about “we can’t surrender in Iraq”? if you beat your opponent bloody and broken but breathing, and the local guy tells you that he can handle it, how on Earth is that “surrender”? But don’t worry, the propaganda to get you good and scared of Iran is working. And more of America’s best like Johan Klaus’s grandson can be injured or killed.
RMC1618 on July 10, 2008 at 7:37 PM