Study: Gays in military would not be disruptive; Update: AOL Hot Seat Poll added
posted at 7:52 am on July 8, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
A bipartisan panel of retired military commanders has concluded that Congress should repeal “don’t ask, don’t tell” and allow gays to serve openly in the military. One commander helped Bill Clinton implement the current policy in 1993 but says it’s flawed by an assumption of disruption when no evidence exists for it. The study, commissioned by UC Santa Barbara, found no evidence that gays serving openly would affect morale, unit cohesion or readiness:
Two of the officers on the panel have endorsed Democratic candidates since leaving the military — Army Lt. Gen. Robert Gard, who supports Barack Obama, and Marine Corps Gen. Hugh Aitken, who backed Clinton in 1996.
Air Force Lt. Gen. Robert Minter Alexander, a Republican, was assigned in 1993 to a high-level panel established by the Defense Department to examine the issue of gays in the military. At one point, he signed an order that prohibited the military from asking a recruit’s sexual orientation. …
Navy Vice Adm. Jack Shanahan said he had no opinion on the issue when he joined the panel, having never confronted it in his 35-year military career. A self-described Republican who opposes the Bush administration’s handling of the Iraq war, Shanahan said he was struck by the loss of personal integrity required by individuals to carry out “don’t ask, don’t tell.”
“Everyone was living a big lie — the homosexuals were trying to hide their sexual orientation and the commanders were looking the other way because they didn’t want to disrupt operations by trying to enforce the law,” he said.
The study will no doubt come under scrutiny for its source. The Michael Palm Center sponsored this study, and it is not a disinterested party to this issue. It champions gay rights as part of its mission. That will have critics saying that the study itself is unreliable and biased from the start.
However, most studies on contentious issues get sponsored by organizations with dogs in the fight, and to dismiss it out of hand would be unreasonable without considering the retired commanders who ran it. According to this report of the study, they found the basic problem of “don’t ask, don’t tell” too large to overcome: an assumption of disruption without any evidence of it. Indeed, the success of DADT would tend to argue otherwise; gays serve without disruption and the military values their service, until the moment they reveal their orientation.
Supporters of the ban have argued that the potential for disruption has never been disproven, but one cannot prove a negative. Evidence exists in other Western forces that gays serve openly without affecting unit morale or performance; British and Israeli militaries have long allowed gays to serve openly, and they have suffered no loss in readiness. As Admiral Shanahan notes, DADT itself creates morale problems with its hypocrisy and necessary deception on the part of everyone involved.
DADT could be considered a necessary bridging step between the outright ban on gays in the military and full acceptance. Congress needs to ask whether the policy has outlived its usefulness and — importantly — whether this moment will serve best as a launching point for a more reasonable policy. The military has spent 15 years admitting, at least tacitly, that gays can serve their nation with honor and distinction.










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After having been grabbed by gays in the shower several times I decided I didn’t enjoy serving with them and punched one out. Next stupid idea.
dogsoldier on July 9, 2008 at 11:09 AM
Oh I meant them serving. Punching out some grabby asshole is just fine.
dogsoldier on July 9, 2008 at 11:10 AM
The Navy has to share open living accommodations and tight spaces with other sailors all the time. Dont do thinking you have some moral authority on this because you are a “grunt”. It makes you sound like Jim Webb and Chuck Hagel. I have served with gays out in the field, on ships and in office environments. My view remains the same.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 11:13 AM
As does all Branches.
You forget that just because the Navy lives in tight areas, doesn’t mean that Marines (who usually share them ith the Navy) are quite sardined in there as well.
Army… hell I can tell you stories on guys spooning to keep warm and sharing poncho liners. But they usually sleep and share very close quarters.
Air Force, won’t even go there.
But the point is, I don’t want to know! DADT is and has been working quite well.
upinak on July 9, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Well one issue now is that people are “telling” in order to get out.
If I could tell you how many times I got that story as Legal Officer on the ship. The funny part was, I am sure that my clerk was gay, and she would laugh every time she got the paperwork.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 11:28 AM
The Air Force does not have to, they all live in 5-star accomodations, they do it because they like it.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 11:29 AM
I think his point is that the perspective is different.
For some reason, the Navy seems to be very accepting of gays, but that doesn’t mean that other branches of the military share that opinion.
Esthier on July 9, 2008 at 11:30 AM
Really? My Flight Line buddies would say differently. The Flight Crew may have, but not the flight line crew.
upinak on July 9, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Just joshing on ya, its not your fault.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 11:33 AM
I can understand that, I am just getting tired of the whole “grunts are so much more awesome than the Navy” thing. It is bad enough that I have to hear two Senators making that stupid argument. The Navy is sending over a couple thousand people a year, in addition to our ridiculous GWOT commitments, to get shot at lead convoys, etc. with the Marines and Army, they have 15 month tours as well.
When the Naval war with China comes, will the Army grunts be cooking our meals and chipping paint on the deck? I am not holding my breath.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 11:37 AM
Squid, my BF (not saying it for the hell of it) and I were talking about this thread last night.
He being a former Marine and a National Guard Load master, has seen it from both (I guess the Navy too) angles as I have only seen it from the Army end.
We both remember working with someone who had a different sexual pref. We both didn’t have a problem with it, usually. But we both agree… niether of us wanted to know more then we did. And we both left it at that.
upinak on July 9, 2008 at 11:42 AM
It’s OK to be jealous of Marines, Squid, we’re used to it. I actually have a few squids in my family (poor souls) and as a Marine I realize I’m in a department of the Navy…the Men’s Department! Just kidding, but not really. :-)
I’ve also spent more time than I care to remember stuffed into deisel fume filled berthing compartments aboard LST’s, LSD’s and LPH’s. Uh…I gotta tell ya they were a bit uncomfortable but it’s a cot compared to the swamp, it’s a shower compared to scraping off the leeches, it’s hot chow compared to weeks of MRE’s, it’s floating around compared to patrolling five days outside the wire in 100 lb battle rattle.
I know I won’t change your mind, but I, and any grunt here, knows what the fate for the dope who outs himself in a line company would be.
Alden Pyle on July 9, 2008 at 11:54 AM
And when the rocket war comes in space the AirForce will get a chubby, in the meantime we’ll keep kicking down doors in a dozen more savage infested pygmie nations and taking out the trash.
BTW maybe the ARMY grunts will be cooking your meals, but the Marine grunts will killing the enemy and blowing things up.
Alden Pyle on July 9, 2008 at 12:02 PM
Hugs Alden. You Good Old Marine!
sorry I am in a weird good modd for some odd reason.
upinak on July 9, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Heh, in line with this thread, I hope you’re a chick. ;-)
Alden Pyle on July 9, 2008 at 12:16 PM
Dont get me wrong, I like Marines, I have enjoyed the ones I have taught and the ones I have served along side with. They are like Army guys with brains.
They are the only ones who get a pass from me for being cocky assholes.
:)
Good on ya Devil Dog.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 12:28 PM
Guess I didn’t realize the rivalry was that extreme.
Well, all of the branches get my support. I’m just a civilian who is grateful someone is watching out for this country.
Esthier on July 9, 2008 at 12:31 PM
The rivalry is OK with the Marines, at the end of the day, we are still a team.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Yep, all Female! Alpha actually. But you and oldnuke will have to be my side men as the Former Marine up here with me might get jealous. :)
upinak on July 9, 2008 at 12:36 PM
On the seventh day God rested, Marines filled sand bags.
Alden Pyle on July 9, 2008 at 12:40 PM
Question: Marines or Martyrs– Who Do You Think Will Get The Virgins? ;-)
You’ve got one Marine, that’s all you can handle.
Alden Pyle on July 9, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Why do we bring Marines on Ships? Because sheep would be to obvious!
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 12:44 PM
Do Marines even want virgins?
Esthier on July 9, 2008 at 12:45 PM
Don’t ba aa aa ait the Marine. He may rip off your arm and beat you with it and enjoy it!
No comment on the handling part. He can barely handle me. Hates it when I catch more fish then him!
upinak on July 9, 2008 at 12:46 PM
I like the way you think.
Alden Pyle on July 9, 2008 at 12:55 PM
I dated a female Marine once, it was a frightening experience.
The fact that she was hot only slightly made up for the fact that she could kill me in 5 different ways.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Only 5? Did she ever mention Duct Tape and your head? I think that is my favorite!
upinak on July 9, 2008 at 1:15 PM
Those are just the ones she tried during arguments.
Squid Shark on July 9, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Only slightly OT, but I was wondering: Where’s CAIR on this? They get offended at all these other “great leaps forward” the libs propose, why not this one? I noticed a lot of people quoting the Bible, but I was curious how the religion of stoning people for the slightest offenses would view this.
Also, I find it hilarious the dichotomy of the Left pushing a study to get gays in the military while holding hands with Osama.
Oh, the webs we weave when we practice to deceive!
pookysgirl on July 9, 2008 at 1:27 PM
:)
Esthier on July 9, 2008 at 1:40 PM
If the men who say that it is okay to have gays in the military (and I am not sure after reading all of the comments) had some this happen to them, what would they think.
First the premise, that gay men are sexually attracted to men.
If 40 men and 3 nice looking women were made to shower, sleep, and dress together day after day, in close quarters, would that cause a problem? If 3 guys were made to shower and dress and sleep with 40 women day after day, would that cause a problem?
If yes to either situation, then why would 3 gay guys showering day after day, dressing and sleeping, with men (whom they are physically attracted to) be any different…wouldn’t they be “driven” or distracted by all of exposed sexuality?
right2bright on July 9, 2008 at 2:09 PM
One difference is it is standard for homosexuals to shower with the same gender from an early age through adulthood.
Do you think we should prevent gay people from serving as ER doctors, policemen or firemen? In the course of their jobs they may see naked people or share close living conditions.
dedalus on July 9, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Thanks for the insight. It makes sense.
dedalus on July 9, 2008 at 2:38 PM
Good point, though I would think that’s the only difference. What else is there?
As to the second half, I’m not expert, but I would assume all (or nearly all) of those civilian jobs are a little more relaxed in shower times, at least more relaxed than Professor Blather’s description.
Esthier on July 9, 2008 at 3:16 PM
Sure, though an ER doctor not only sees naked bodies (of whichever gender they are attracted to), but can touch, probe and pentrate those bodies often while the patient is unconscious.
My point is most people would be more concerned with whether the ER doctor paid attention in Med school than who they were having sex with at home.
dedalus on July 9, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Sure, but that’s partially because the ER doctor gets to go home.
Well, not alone.
I get your point, and it’s decent. But I also get the point being made that unique environments exist in the military which make homosexuality a different issue than it would be under normal working conditions.
Esthier on July 9, 2008 at 3:39 PM
Trust me. DADT is the best solution. All the way around.
upinak on July 9, 2008 at 3:42 PM
I don’t disagree.
dedalus on July 9, 2008 at 3:46 PM
I haven’t been given many reasons that it isn’t except for the idea that homosexuals are forced to lie, but that’s a problem that seems to only affect homosexuals and not the military at large.
On the other hand, many have made arguments to the effect that outing homosexuals in the military will negatively affect it.
Esthier on July 9, 2008 at 3:46 PM
I love double negatives. They’re useful but sometimes momentarily confusing.
Esthier on July 9, 2008 at 3:47 PM
Not true. Military people who engage in behaviors counter to good order and discipline lie too. Adulterers will lie about affairs with co-workers. Officers will lie about having sexual relations with enlisted troops. Drug abusers will lie about their off duty activities….. etc.
The fact of the matter the gay agenda demands that homosexuals be seen as victims when, in reality, the military doesn’t care about sexual orientation beyond how it affects the unit. Legitimizing a counter-cultural lifestyle choice is decidedly against good order and discipline. The dirty little secret that the gay activists refuse to admit is that legitimizing homosexuality would result in a massive attrition of trained troops unwilling to put up with the new order and they could clear out San Francisco and still not get enough homosexuals to fill the holes left behind- even if they stood up the Big Pink 69 Division to create a gays-only military command.
highhopes on July 9, 2008 at 4:12 PM
Should an adulterer be treated differently than a homosexual, assuming that both engage in their activity outside of the military?
dedalus on July 9, 2008 at 4:29 PM
I understand what you are saying.
But it is like this when it comes to this project. Are you willing to treat with special regard the few … or go off what is right for the good of the many?
I will go with the many… and I am tired of cowtowing.
upinak on July 9, 2008 at 4:41 PM
No, and as long as their detrimental lifestyle choices remains outside the military, I don’t see the problem. It’s when the adulterers partner starts calling the command for child support or the homosexual starts dating his tent-mate that the military should deal with either situation.
DADT is simply nothing more than keeping the lifestyle choices private. I’ve served with individuals who were clearly gay but I didn’t care what they did on their own any more than I would want to know about the sex life of any co-worker.
highhopes on July 9, 2008 at 4:51 PM
How are you disputing my statement?
All you’ve done is add more people who lie. I never said that only homosexuals lie. I’ve only said that DADT forces them to lie or else get kicked out, which is exactly how the policy works.
I understand.
Esthier on July 9, 2008 at 5:31 PM
Ok so basically your stance is that gay men shouldn’t allowed to be openly gay around you because that might mean you have to have them fooling around with other men around you. How is that any different from a closeted gay man being forced to watch you have sex with your girlfriends near him?
And the part about it being against your religious and moral values is laughable considering you make it sound like those particular morals and values don’t preclude you from having pre-marital sex. I don’t agree with homosexuality either because of my beliefs btw but your argument against them being open doesn’t hold up because of your own actions.
As I said before, this is all a bunch of excuses and I have yet to see a legit argument in this thread supporting the continuation of current policies.
Benaiah on July 9, 2008 at 5:48 PM
A hell of a lot of comments on this. But here’s a point I haven’t seen made although I may have missed it. Recruitment. What kind of people are going to voluntarily enlist into an organization that promises to force them to live and work with people that will make them uncomfortable? Every kid who talks about enlisting will be ridiculed for wanting to live, shower and work with gays. Take away DADT and I guarantee you will have to resort to the draft. Either that or most military personnel will be gays and liberals.
The military is the wrong place for PC bullsh*t.
Guardian on July 9, 2008 at 6:02 PM
They are not living in combat situations, showering with 20 people in a small stall, is different then an ER. I don’t think doctors live and bunk like the military…just a guess.
right2bright on July 9, 2008 at 6:39 PM
Another bogus argument. Again, gays are in the military whether they are open about it or not. Your argument is just another attempt to pretend they aren’t there but obviously they are.
Benaiah on July 9, 2008 at 6:51 PM
I’ve served in 2 branches of the military and I’ve served in Iraq. I’m well aware that there are gays in the military. I am also aware of the mindset of soldiers and how they feel about this issue. Many soldiers I know, good men all of them, either would not reenlist or would never have joined in the first place if DADT was not in place. I could care less if a fellow soldier was a closeted gay. If you have some sissy prancing around openly there will be problems.
Soldiers are not a bunch of Latte sipping liberals having a spaz attack on the unfairness of discrimination over Nancy-boys. They have their own sense of justice and will thin the herd when necessary. I’ve seen it done. They will take matters into their own hands. Laws written by desk jockey liberal lawyers don’t mean squat on the battlefield. They never have and never will.
Guardian on July 9, 2008 at 7:11 PM
There are obviously some morons on here that have absolutely no experience with the military, but assume they know about the navy because of a silly song by the village people.
“For some reason, the Navy seems to be very accepting of gays, but that doesn’t mean that other branches of the military share that opinion. – Esthier”
This is exactly what I mean. Esthier obviously has no clue about the military but because she/he heard the song by the village people, she feels qualified to make an obviously ridiculous statement.
If anyone has been through OCS, boot camp, etc(as I have), you would realize that it is completely impractical to have people serve openly in regard their homosexuality. Whether it be the fact that we constantly see the same gender buck naked in showers, have to share rooms with each other, etc, it’s impractical. The military is not a social project. We don’t want to force straight people to subject themselves to being roommates with homosexuals who, just as I would have problems rooming with an attractive woman(particularly when she takes off her clothes), would create a ridiculously uncomfortable situation.
Why do we separate the genders? For no other reason than sexuality. If we allow homosexuals to serve openly, there’s absolutely no reason to separate genders anymore, and I can guarantee you that would lead to a ridiculous amount of sexual harassment and other problems.
The military is not a social project. I have every right to not want a homosexual man to stare at me in the shower as any woman has a right not to want some guy to stare at her. This doesn’t make me a bad person, a homophobe, or whatever insult you can come up with, it makes me REASONABLE.
TTheoLogan on August 25, 2008 at 10:41 PM
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