Video: 1,215 troops re-enlist in Baghdad on Independence Day
posted at 3:46 pm on July 4, 2008 by Allahpundit
Share on Facebook | printer-friendly
Petraeus: “You and your comrades here have been described as America’s new greatest generation, and, in my view, you have more than earned that description. It is the greatest of honors to soldier here with you.”
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2 3 Next »
Since the time that our army has been a volunteer army it is certainly easy and correct to say that the ones who serve are the cream of the crop for each generation. But the generation itself is not necessarily represented by those who serve. I see MB4’s point. The WW11 generation’s military was more representative of that generation. Even those who were in the States supported their mission and did what they could to help those who served. This generation not so much.
Rose on July 4, 2008 at 7:45 PM
I meant WWII, obviously we haven’t yet had 11 world wars.
Rose on July 4, 2008 at 7:47 PM
Mega Dittos
Texyank on July 4, 2008 at 7:48 PM
But was Petreus talking about the entire generation of Americans, as MB4 was arguing, or was he referencing that specific generation of American soldiers?
It’s seems to me that Petreus was addressing that military/uniformed generation and was praising that group as being the next greatest generation. Not the entire generation of Americans.
Anyway, it seems a rather small point to make in light of the greater significance of the event.
SteveMG on July 4, 2008 at 7:58 PM
Looking back a looong way but there were certainly more than that amount.
Beto Ochoa on July 4, 2008 at 8:00 PM
Very right as usual Mr SteveMG.
Beto Ochoa on July 4, 2008 at 8:02 PM
You are very inarticulate if that’s the best you can do.
“Your not much of a man” – that sounds oh so grade school. I took no offense at what the good General said, I merely pointed out how illogical it was.
Now, now, take a deep breath as you sound so childish when you lose your cool. And I’m not your buddy, Poncho.
Do you even know what narcissism means? If you do you hide it well.
Not nearly as interesting as not as many of the natives would have had a cow that way and besides what I said was very clear and frankly it really never occurred to me that it would go over anyones head.
Finally someone who is not blind!!!
*
I have got to be honest and tell you that most of you critics are really not much of a challenge at all and should really try to do better in the future. Now go set off some fireworks to ease your frustrations. Be sure to go outside first.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 8:02 PM
If he was addressing this particular generation of soldiers do you think it is a disservice to the generations of soldiers who came before? They have all been great. But, of course this was a special ceremony and it would be wrong to find fault. I just think that all generations of soldiers from the Revolutionary War to the Iraq War have been incredible. The fact that these men have reenlisted during a very unpopular war may be the basis of his statement. These men and women know what is at stake. And I certainly did not mean to discredit those who were drafted and served. They also showed incredible character.
Rose on July 4, 2008 at 8:19 PM
ABSOLUTELY AWESOME:
This is so excellent,and to me ,very symbolic for American
soldiers to re-inlist in Saddam Hussien’s former Palace,the
Al Faw,in Camp Victory!
On former enemy lands,at that,Iraq has been LIBERATED!
And their was loss, to a degree,heavy,however the assault
on Iwo Jima and Okinawa,sustained that casuality rate in
just one day on the beach alone!
This re-enlistment,is a testament to true grit,the American
way,FREEDOM,SACRIFICE,HONOUR and COURAGE!
To all American’s on your INDEPENDENCE DAY,once again,as a
Canadian,I thank-you America,for being the,
LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD,:)
canopfor on July 4, 2008 at 8:22 PM
Good Lord man, Petraeus said: “You and your comrades here have been described as America’s new greatest generation”.
One percent of the population, actually a lot less than that if you count the very small number who have been to Iraq or Afghanistan as it’s basically just the same guys going over and over and over again, does not make a generation, not even remotely.
Petraeus was obviously alluding, with his “new greatest generation” to the WWII “Greatest Generation” where practically every able bodied man of military age went and those who didn’t go worked supplying those who went and made many other sacrifices. Less than one percent of a generation going with the other more than 99% of that generation “out shopping” hardly even begins to compare or be a generation. Besides Iraq is a tea party compared to WWII anyway.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 8:28 PM
It seems to me that MB4’s initial statement was misunderstood, and then some threw flames, and he didn’t explain his original meaning…and then the flames turned into some HA-mini-fires.
Now, all let’s get out our beers, other liquor, cigars, micro-brews, and whatever pleases us, take a deep breath, and celebrate the freedom to do so, while these wonderful people enlist and reeinlist so that we can do so.
Entelechy on July 4, 2008 at 8:29 PM
aengus and canopfor, thank you for being so supportive, as foreigners, of what the U.S. still stands for, in the realm of good in the world.
Entelechy on July 4, 2008 at 8:31 PM
A beautiful thing….i am so proud and grateful.
I have a question….youtube says this video has had “0″ views…like nobody has watched it….whats up with that? i went back in several times and it still says “views: 0″.
surrounded on July 4, 2008 at 8:36 PM
lol. I don’t think that any of the points made in comments on this or any other blog are exactly going to make the history books.
Besides what do you want, just variously worded amens over and over again on every thread.
Now I’m getting bored.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 8:42 PM
Entelechy, I’ll take iced tea, which I’m sure my southern born and raised mom will be serving tonight.
Rose on July 4, 2008 at 8:43 PM
Praise the Lord!! Another person who can see!
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 8:44 PM
Another sighted person!! Praise Jesus!!!
What “defines a generation”?
1%, or less depending on how you figure it, of a generation or the 99%?
I prefer the “old” math.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 8:51 PM
BTW does the nick “MB4″ designate anything? Is it some kind of military jargon? I don’t know anything about this stuff.
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 8:58 PM
I swear to defend the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.
So when do they march on Washington D.C. seems ample enemies in the senate, congress and supreme court…
Domestic Enemies! Hopefully not one in the Whitehouse come Nov.
dhunter on July 4, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Some like it hot and some sweat
When the heat is on
Some feel the heat and decide that
They can´t go on
Some like it hot, but you can´t tell how hot
Til you try
Some like it hot, so let´s turn up the heat
Til we fry
Some like it hot
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 9:00 PM
The key phrase is: “You [i.e., the soldiers at the ceremony] and your comrades [i.e., other soldiers]“.
If he had meant the entire generation of Americans from which those soldiers came from he wouldn’t have said “You and your comrades”, would he?
He would have said “Your generation has been described as America’s new greatest generation”.
He specifically used the term “you and your comrades” which limits it to the soldiers.
To complain about this is extremely petty and small.
Not surprising given the source of the complaint.
SteveMG on July 4, 2008 at 9:00 PM
see my 8:02
Beto Ochoa on July 4, 2008 at 9:03 PM
Yeah but you do realise that the term “domestic enemies” doesn’t mean you can just decide that Democrats are enemies and start gunning them down on the street right?
If you regard the lefties as ideological enemies then you have to fight them ideologically, you can’t just toss grenades at the DNC.
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 9:05 PM
Everyone, please go celebrate the birthday of this great lady, America, and those who keep her so, while we pontificate. No one cares how right or wrong you are on one or two words, or their meaning, really.
Entelechy on July 4, 2008 at 9:06 PM
It’s “The Hill” at Fort Sill, Oklahoma that you had to run on week ends when you were “bad” during the week.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 9:08 PM
Rose:
Of course. That is why he said the “next greatest” generation.
The ones before were great and this generation of soldiers are the next in line.
It’s clear he was referring to the soldiers at the event and their comrades elsewhere in the military. Not the entire generation of Americans.
If he had meant the entire generation he wouldn’t have said “You and your comrades”. He simply would have said “Your generation…”
After all, he was addressing the troops who re-upped and not all Americans of that generation.
SteveMG on July 4, 2008 at 9:10 PM
Oh well. Guess we’ll just have to go to the movies then.
Beto Ochoa on July 4, 2008 at 9:14 PM
All our Soldiers, with few exceptions, past and present, were/are great. No one claimed otherwise.
MB4 wanted to make the point, I think, that they are great, but 99% of us “go shopping”, symbolically. I think we should all just give it a rest. Respectfully to all,
Entelechy on July 4, 2008 at 9:15 PM
Ah, I see. Thanks.
Judging by your quote marks around the word bad I’d imagine you’re something of a champion at running up hills.
/Kidding
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 9:16 PM
No, he was taking another shot at Petreus. As he has often done.
It was uncalled for given the nature of the event.
Sorry, like most people, I ignore most of his bile. But this warranted a response.
But as you suggest, it’s time to let it rest.
SteveMG on July 4, 2008 at 9:20 PM
Yeah but didn’t Bush or someone tell people to “go shopping” or something repulsive like that after Sept. 11? I vaguely remember it but can’t provide a quote I’m afraid.
As for giving it a rest, the best way to do that is to turn off your computer. I like arguing.
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 9:20 PM
Thank you to our nations finest who serve which enables the rest of us back home to enjoy our holiday in peace.
*salutes*
Yakko77 on July 4, 2008 at 9:22 PM
Cheers!
shhhh – it’s Petraeus…and, yes, he’s great. I respect him a lot too. You too.
Entelechy on July 4, 2008 at 9:23 PM
It was clearly, to any sighted person anyway, more of an observation than a “complaint” and you are continuing to be petty and small, particularly with your “Not surprising given the source of the complaint”, which is exceedingly petty and small.
General Petraeus said – “You and your comrades here have been described as America’s new greatest generation” and I will say it yet again, one (1) percent of Americans of a generational age group do not even remotely make a generation, “greatest generation” or “new greatest generation” or at generation at all. One (1) percent is one (1) percent, not a generation. Good Lord. Do the math.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 9:24 PM
Blah, blah, blah…
Beto Ochoa on July 4, 2008 at 9:25 PM
Really? :) We both do, but not now. It’s an important birthday we’ve got to celebrate.
p.s. you’re right on the Bush “shopping” think. In hindsight so many things are much clearer.
Entelechy on July 4, 2008 at 9:25 PM
MB4, it’s time for you to grab some micro-brew and a cigar.
Beta Ochoa, you too, because all you do is throw petrol on the flames, and it’s totally below you. With respect,
Entelechy on July 4, 2008 at 9:26 PM
aengus – s/b p.s. you’re right on the Bush “shopping” thing.
Entelechy on July 4, 2008 at 9:27 PM
I know what you mean. Happy birthday America!
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 9:28 PM
Yes.
You mean you don’t understand what I’m trying to tell you, MB4.
You’re making a thread designed to thank these troops all about you and your desire to trade insults with other people.
Your grammar point was a valid one. But your personality quirks are obscuring its importance.
Also…one can’t but notice that you behave this way in all threads in which the troops are lauded. Why is that?
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 9:29 PM
one can’t but notice=one can’t help but notice
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 9:30 PM
Let’s just say that I probably ran MB4 a lot more than Tommy Franks did. He “dated” it, I was more like “engaged” to it.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 9:35 PM
“One can’t but notice…”
Actually, archaic but very good.
Beto Ochoa on July 4, 2008 at 9:36 PM
Now you are really just making things up. There is a search function, use it.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 9:37 PM
That sounds familiar. Not as familiar as his Islam is a Great Religion of Peace though of course.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 9:39 PM
There you go again.
- Ronald Reagan
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Nanoo, nanoo, nanoo.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 9:44 PM
Hi baldilocks.
Happy Independence Day.
I can’t answer for MB4 but this a good question and I’d like to supply my own response.
The key question is does one “support the troops”? The rejoinder to an antiwar person who says yes is well if you don’t support their mission then you don’t support them.
But one can disagree with a political decision to conduct a military campaign while not holding any ill-will towards troops and simultaneously hoping and praying that they are not suffering unnecessarily.
Democrats often pretend to think this way but expose themselves with intemperate public statements i.e. Durbin but I’m sure there are plenty of people who think this wat.
Now it could be (and is) argued that by not offering political support you are damaging their morale and thus weakening them but one shouldn’t abandon their political beliefs because of this argument.
Besides as we’ve been told ad nauseam the success of the Iraq war ultimately depends on the Iraqis and in my view any war aims that depend totally on the goodwill of an alien population of 27 million people whose religious doctrine holds that they should distrust, disrupt, main, kill, convert and subjugate nonbelievers is incoherent.
We all know that socialists are utopian with all their mad Euro-schemes but are supporters of nation-building in some of the most undeveloped countries in the world any less utopian?
Incidentially the latin word utopia simply means non-existent place.
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 9:47 PM
It was not me who “made it about me”. It was my many, how shall I say,
rabid haters“admirers”, who took what would be a pretty uncontroversial comment to a normal person and read all manner of things into it and “made it about me”.BTW, the troops are not even going to read this thread. Give them some credit.
You must notice only what you want to notice.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 9:51 PM
Hm I just noticed that baldilocks’ question had nothing to do with my response. The question I unthinkingly formulated in my mind reads something like this:
“Why would someone express antiwar sentiments in a post devoted solely to celebration of the troops in Iraq?”
Hope that helps.
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 9:53 PM
They are all quite mad I tell you. Quite mad.
Sigy on July 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
You’re jealous, aren’t you? Jealous of everyone from General Petraeus down to the lowest ranking E-2. Is it because they’re getting the love and admiration that your generation of GI didn’t? Well, a small part of the country was wrong to inflict its ingratitude upon you all and the larger part was wrong to allow it. But why take it out on the troops and out on us? Most of us were kids or not born yet when you served. We didn’t let your generation down and we don’t want to make the same mistake that our parents and grandparents did.
Heck I remember the first time I noticed you posting here. It was in a thread about troops; one in which you were proclaiming that they were all dupes and that Bush had misled the country into war. You were making a far more eloquent case than most people do when they make similar claims. And that’s what makes you readable and a valuable commenter here.
What makes you unreadable is your tendency to make every subject that you’re passionate about all about *you,* i.e. your tendency to not reign in your narcissism.
Let me say this, however, MB4, you have my gratitude for your service to this country. It was your service and that of those like you which planted the idea in my head that such service might be worth making a life out of (or at least twenty years).
Many thanks. Have an excellent holiday weekend.
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Texyank on July 4, 2008 at 6:29 PM
re: Drudge, goes to show what a media pimp he is after all.
maverick muse on July 4, 2008 at 10:06 PM
Baldilocks:
Can’t improve on that.
From top to bottom.
I thank MB4 too for his service.
Happy Fourth.
SteveMG on July 4, 2008 at 10:10 PM
I have argued this, with MB4 as a matter of fact.
If this is true, then we should pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Here and at my blog, I’ve asked opponents of the Iraq War who make this claim about Islam whether they are for pulling out of Afghanistan also. That stance would be consistent. But nobody wants to go there publicly yet. (Three guesses as to who will be the first to go there.)
If it’s all about the Islam and Islam is destined to make our efforts in the ME futile, then we should pull all the way out.
Are you willing to make that claim?
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 10:16 PM
Rose on July 4, 2008 at 8:19 PM
“No greater gift than this” would be the greatest gift of all. That America has been so blessed with the greatest of givers is humbling. Each generation is called to serve. Those who answer with such loyalty are the greatest patriots amongst us. Our founding fathers depended upon volunteer militias that George Washington had the humble responsibility to marshal into a volunteer army consisting of farmers and merchants. They answered the call and fought without food, clothing, boots, tents, ammunition, horses, cannon lost in battle. They were the greatest generation of patriots. Each subsequent generation that honors our fore-fathers’ tradition of sacrifice for our fellow citizens and for humanity at large in this global nightmare of a world, to dream the impossible dream, to be willing to march into hell for the glorious cause of LIBERTY, those are the greatest generation, whether they sacrificed during WWII or today following 9/11, or any conflict wherein they exercised their ultimate faith in our Constitution. They have been called the Band of Brothers, and today they include Sisters in the ranks. The only literal translation is that THESE NEWLY RE-ENLISTED ARE OF THE GREATEST GENERATION, taking part in the greatest sacrifice for us to preserve our Constitution.
God Bless Them!
maverick muse on July 4, 2008 at 10:26 PM
I think that all the nation-building hullabaloo ought to be dropped hastily and that the fighting against the Taliban ought be conducted on a basis that the sole mission is to kill Talibs, no more no less.
Iraq ought to be abandoned because the sectarian fractures there could make for a civil war (involving sectarian and ethnic tensions) that would, like the Iran-Iraq war or the proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Egypt in Yemen, weaken Islam.
In retrospect it would have been great if the US had manipulated Iran and Afghanistan into war. Iran was on the verge of invading Taliban-controlled Afghanistan in 1999 but ultimately held back.
Iraq and Afghanistan are different countries and do not necessarily require identical/parallel approaches.
Hamid Karzai is an ex-Talib and the Afghan Islamic Council has inordinate power over him. Thats Afghani democracy for you.
Besides, the United States Constitution guarantees to each state “a republican form of government.” It does not guarantee a “democracy.”
Why is the US promoting, across the world, a form of government that it does not itself employ? Very strange.
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Don’t give up your day job and try to become a shrink as you are not given to it.
I certainly do not recall ever saying that the troops were dupes. I also do not seem to recall ever saying that Bush had mislead us into war. It’s the staying part to Islamic nation build that I have had the problem with, not the first part. There is a search function, so maybe you can use it to back that up, particularly the troops are “dupes” bit.
Now you are trying to play “Good cop, bad cop”.
You are one of the ones, some reading all manner of things that aren’t there into a comment(s) of mine, trying to “make it about me”. I have just been responding. All I made was a simple comment about how many it takes to make a generation, with 1% being not nearly enough. Do the math.
Doesn’t your head spin going from “Good cop, bad cop”?
BTW, “Thank you for your service” or variations thereof is becoming almost like Hannity’s “You’re a Great American” or “Have a nice day”.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 10:37 PM
I suppose to let Islam be Islam and wish and hope upon a star that it is something far different from what it is. “Hope and Change” on steroids.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 10:44 PM
BTW in 2000 Bush campaigned against nation-building. The argument by many conservatives in 2003 that “9/11 changed everything” makes no sense. A nonsensical idea does not suddenly start to make sense because the murder of 3,000 Americans requires a quick solution. This is not plausible.
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 10:45 PM
Iraq’s only a battle in the war By Diana West
“Such a proposition is always undone by the word “bloodbath,” as though Americans are eternally obligated to serve as buffers between the warring Islamic tribes of Iraq — which is both cracked and a good way to tie up American forces for the next several centuries.
Maybe the United States needs to get out of the real reconciliation business, and fast.
There’s a world of trouble outside Iraq. At the very least, it’s debatable whether building bridges between Sunnis and Shiites inside Iraq should remain American Priority No. 1.”
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 10:50 PM
IIRC, his argument – one I agreed with then – was that the costs of nation-building (Haiti, Somalia et cetera) exceeded the benefits accrued for us and that, at that time, it was not a proper role for the US to engage in.
It’s still not a good idea in general.
However, I would argue that the type of regime – nation, if you will – that succeeded Saddam would have a critical effect on the security of us, our friends in the region and our interests.
A failed nation, like Afghanistan, would be used – could be used – by the Islamists for their own interests.
That may be wrong; but that’s the argument (briefly stated).
SteveMG on July 4, 2008 at 10:50 PM
If I were being insincere, you have no trouble figuring it out. :::shrug::: Oh well. Pearls before swine. In light of you subsequent comment, I meant that also. Do at least to enjoy your holiday. It must be tough with your persecution complex.
If what you say is true about Islam, how do you see the end playing out?
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 10:52 PM
Diana West’s views on Bush and Iraq
Scroll down a bit to – What President Bush should say to us -
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 10:52 PM
I see that my wine is kicking in. :-)
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 10:53 PM
George W. Bush on October 11 2000 -
“Maybe I’m missing something here. I mean, we’re going to have kind of a nation-building corps from America? Absolutely not. Our military’s meant to fight and win war. That’s what it’s meant to do. And when it gets overextended, morale drops. But I’m going to be judicious as to how to use the military. It needs to be in our vital interest, the mission needs to be clear, and the exit strategy obvious.”
And no 9/11 did not override that. It should have reinforced it.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 10:55 PM
Here’s where your comments have value: how do you think Afghanistan will play out? Serious question.
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 10:56 PM
“Good cop, bad cop”.
There you go again.
- Ronald Reagan
Smile followed by an ad hominem. You are going to wear that routine out.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 11:02 PM
It’s a gift. :-)
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 11:03 PM
How so?
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 11:03 PM
In the short run? Could go either way. Some good, some bad.
In the long run? Islam is Islam.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 11:04 PM
I will decide for myself whose comments have value. You shall keep watch in the street.
Holmes on July 4, 2008 at 11:06 PM
What I’m trying to figure out is why those who are openly for pulling out of Iraq because of Islam aren’t openly for pulling out of Afghanistan for the same reason.
If Islam makes our effort futile in one place, the same should be so wherever Islam dominates. Just saying.
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 11:07 PM
Oh okay. :::cracking up:::
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 11:08 PM
I understand your position.
But a fairly moderate Iraqi polity could have been created by installing Allawi or Chalabi as the ruler of Iraq. This is the position that was favoured by Donald Rumsfeld and John Bolton, who were overruled.
Most people do not consider this. They are required to support the conservative position whatever that is.
The idea that Iraq has to be turned into some sort of shining beacon of liberty is the current policy.
The US is not going to be defeated militarily anywhere by anyone but that is not the deciding factor in this “war”.
Success in Iraq, according to those who define the policy, depends on the Iraqis. The Pentagon has ceded control over the success of this war to 27 million foreign people it cannot even begin to understand.
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 11:10 PM
It’s much to transparently insincere to wish someone well and call them names in the very next breath. Very few can join the two together and you are not among those few. If you are going to go that route you need to be much more subtle and not put them so close together.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 11:12 PM
I don’t understand this question. You’ll have to be more specific.
Do you mean the end of the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan? One or both? Or the end of the West? Or the end of current US foreign policy?
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 11:14 PM
Fact are facts, Watson.
Holmes on July 4, 2008 at 11:15 PM
At least the enemy wore uniforms in ww2.
Johan Klaus on July 4, 2008 at 11:22 PM
Try a Shiner beer; it takes longer.
Johan Klaus on July 4, 2008 at 11:27 PM
I do wish you well even though you have an obnoxious personality. That’s no not to do so. You’re not harming anyone by displaying it.
I don’t think I should follow your advice.
My original question was about Afghanistan. How do you see our efforts in Afghanistan playing out? In light of the prevalence of Islam in that region and its nature as you deemed it, when would we kill enough Taliban to call it a day, declare victory and pull out?
What “facts” would those be?
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 11:28 PM
That’s no not to do so=That’s no reason not to do so
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 11:30 PM
I duuno.
Maybe because the cost in lives and limbs and $$$ has not been nearly as great in Afghanistan as it has been in Iraq. Maybe because Afghanistan does not have the added “problem” of Sunni v Shiite. Maybe because Afganistan is not nearly as much a natural ally to Iran as a Shiite controlled Iraq is. I would think that most who think that it is time to start leaving Iraq would think that it is time to start leaving Afghanistan when/if the cost gets that high with not a whole lot to show for it.
Kind of like if you have a lemon car. How much are you willing to put into it hoping that you can get it working well before you say #uck it and have it towed to the junk yard.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 11:34 PM
That’s fine, but if you are going to play that kind of game, which you of course shouldn’t, you would be better at it anyway if you did.
I’m looking out for you.
MB4 on July 4, 2008 at 11:38 PM
Just got in from the town firework display. Grand as usual. For a berg of 20k they sure do it right.
Happy Birthday America!
Limerick on July 4, 2008 at 11:40 PM
In Islamic theology there is a kind of opt-out clause for marginalised jihadis – those who are not capable of engaging in jihad due to weakness are exempt from it.
This principle was in effect from roughly 1800-1960. This is why modern people do not understand jihad – the idea that a principle could run totally unbroken and unchanged over two centuries is considered ridiculous.
The Taliban can be defeated by their total destruction but the nation-building stuff is worse than useless because it maintains that the way to win a war is to woo an enemy. Battered Westerner Syndrome.
You know that without Christianity man gravitates to an evil, sinful nature. Handing out money to local Sheiks and Imams does not negate this effect.
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 11:43 PM
Remember the condition that aengus put forth: Islam is problem, not the Sunni/Shiite split and not the cost. If Islam is truly the problem, then it would make sense to pull out of Afghanistan regardless of the cost and those who believe that Islam’s doctrine precludes peace would logically believe that any expenditure in Afghanistan or anywhere else where Islam dominates would be a waste.
baldilocks on July 4, 2008 at 11:43 PM
Try PBR since 2 o’clock. I’m lucky I made it to the fireworks.
What an interesting thread. Happy 4th all!
SouthernDem on July 4, 2008 at 11:50 PM
Back up there a little. I myself mentioned the Sunni/Shiite split as reason for leaving Iraq. Let them war against each other in full savagery without US troops catching stray bullets and holding them away from each other like a boxing referee.
Afghanistan is majority Sunni which I why I would have liked an Iranian invasion to exacerbate a Sunni-Shia conflict without US troops standing in the middle of it and bearing the brunt.
aengus on July 4, 2008 at 11:52 PM
Actually, I suspect our goals in Iraq and Afghanistan are quite different at present.
1. I’ve always felt Iran’s nuclear ambitions were a major reason for the Iraq invasion, with Hussein’s rebuffs regarding UN resolutions on valid WMD inspection being used as a handy excuse to get up close and personal with Iran for the end game. A secondary benefit was that if the Arab street got a taste of something even close to meaningful voting rights in Iraq, it would shake the towers in some of the other ME regimes which don’t want their general populations getting too frisky, and which then might slowly start to loosen up. That would be a long term benefit if it happens. As others have stated, Iraq may not be able to make it work in the long run. Contrary to aengus(from another discussion on another thread), I don’t think it is inevitable that the secular Iraqis will be overcome by the religious fanatics. But, I think Iran/Hezbollah have been the target all along, and if Syria gets sucked in, that’s also acceptable. I don’t know how we can work the diplomatic lever to go after Hezbollah, so that one may not happen. It would also have a tremendous positive effect on Israel’s situation.
2. I think because Afghanistan is less capable of handling anything close to a democratic enviorment in a responsible fashion, the primary mission there is to seek and kill Taliban as a pre-emptive measure against them using the country again as a training ground for the various terror groups.
Two different military engagments,..two different goals.
a capella on July 5, 2008 at 12:02 AM
This is from your first comment addressed to me:
There’s no differentiation between the two sects in this statement and I’ve been commenting on that in this thread. The implication is that both sects hold to a doctrine ‘[hold] that they should distrust, disrupt, main, kill, convert and subjugate nonbelievers;’ the implication is that Islam–regardless of sect–is the problem and it is the reason why we should pull out.
If that’s not what you meant, then ok, but I think you can see where I got that the entirety of Islam is the problem in your estimation.
baldilocks on July 5, 2008 at 12:08 AM
Perhaps. I’m just not seeing that the area will run out of Taliban.
baldilocks on July 5, 2008 at 12:11 AM
Yes both sects hold to the doctrines of jihad but it is also true that they have everlasting disagreements based on historical matters that are not directly connected to their common doctrine.
It is not possible to continue this discussion unless you study Islam because I would be introducing theological concepts you don’t understand and I wouldn’t be able to summarise them in short comments.
In any case, enjoy your night.
aengus on July 5, 2008 at 12:14 AM
Just to throw a cat in the bag with this thread….
U.S. Army, March 1945 8.7 million. Of which only 2.7 million were ground combat troops, 2mil Air Force, 4mil support personnel. Total 89 divisions. DRAFTEES and volunteers, scaled and organized to fight in Europe, Africa, Pacific, Asia against other organized armies.
To compare those force levels with today’s force levels as a measure of patriotism or resolve is ridiculous. If the country called they would be there. The evidence is in that re-enlistment video….
You don’t need a Godzilla to root out a rattlesnake. A much smaller critter works just dandy.
I’ll go with holding this generation up with their grandfather’s one.
Limerick on July 5, 2008 at 12:15 AM
What makes you think I haven’t Islam? :-) That’s why I’m asking about the inconsistency.
Good night.
baldilocks on July 5, 2008 at 12:16 AM
studied
baldilocks on July 5, 2008 at 12:16 AM
Islam is the main problem. Sunni v Shiite and cost (lives, limbs, burnt up equipment, etc.) just compounds it.
I am having more and more doubts about staying in Afghanistan, but there is a difference between going after Al Q’s allies the Taliban and trying to Islamic Nation build in Afghanistan, or Iraq for that matter. Besides it might not be so good to have two nation building failures back-to-back.
This whole thing started out as what looked to be a short a$$ kicking gig and has turned into what I don’t think would unreasonable be called an Islamic nation building quagmire, complete with
Mein KampfKoran kissing American Generals in Iraq and probably in Afghanistan soon too if not already. Plus “unholy” alliances with Islamic thugs in both countries, certainly in Iraq.Sometimes you got to know when to hold them and when to fold them.
MB4 on July 5, 2008 at 12:18 AM
You may want to rephrase that.
FeralCat on July 5, 2008 at 12:21 AM
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2 3 Next »