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Video: The obligatory “Hitchens gets waterboarded” clip

posted at 3:38 pm on July 2, 2008 by Allahpundit
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A snippet of vid to accompany his new piece in Vanity Fair, surely the most eloquent entry in the expanding genre of waterboarding opponents seeking to show how fearsome the practice is by … willingly subjecting themselves to it. Unlike most other pieces in that genre, the argument in favor is forcefully presented before being rejected:

The team who agreed to give me a hard time in the woods of North Carolina belong to a highly honorable group. This group regards itself as out on the front line in defense of a society that is too spoiled and too ungrateful to appreciate those solid, underpaid volunteers who guard us while we sleep. These heroes stay on the ramparts at all hours and in all weather, and if they make a mistake they may be arraigned in order to scratch some domestic political itch. Faced with appalling enemies who make horror videos of torture and beheadings, they feel that they are the ones who confront denunciation in our press, and possible prosecution. As they have just tried to demonstrate to me, a man who has been waterboarded may well emerge from the experience a bit shaky, but he is in a mood to surrender the relevant information and is unmarked and undamaged and indeed ready for another bout in quite a short time. When contrasted to actual torture, waterboarding is more like foreplay. No thumbscrew, no pincers, no electrodes, no rack. Can one say this of those who have been captured by the tormentors and murderers of (say) Daniel Pearl? On this analysis, any call to indict the United States for torture is therefore a lame and diseased attempt to arrive at a moral equivalence between those who defend civilization and those who exploit its freedoms to hollow it out, and ultimately to bring it down. I myself do not trust anybody who does not clearly understand this viewpoint.

In that last sentence lies the difference between Hitchens and most of the left, which probably explains why his verdict goes down so much smoother than theirs. I don’t quite follow him at the very end, though. The quote from Malcolm Nance suggests that by waterboarding Al Qaeda we’ve only ended up teaching them how to resist the practice, but that’s a risk you absorb whenever you introduce a new weapon or tactic. And given the fact that the practice is reportedly no longer used and was never used all that much to begin with, how big of a risk is it? As for Hitch’s own final point, about the U.S. having lent credence via waterboarding to Al Qaeda’s formerly discredited tales of abuse at enemy hands, I’m not sure if his objection is moral or strategic. If it’s the latter, then he’s assuming that the propaganda value of AQ receiving credibility on that point outweighs the deterrent value of knowing that the U.S. is (or was) willing to do this sort of thing to a captured jihadi. I’m skeptical that suicidal fanatics who don’t blink at beheadings are going to feel any extra surge in motivation from knowing that KSM did hard time on the board, but oh well.

On to the clip, destined to become a cult classic among atheist-haters of every stripe. Click the image to watch.

hitchens-waterboard.jpg


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Comment pages: 1 2

Sounds good to me. I’d like to see him try it too.

wise_man on July 2, 2008 at 7:20 PM

People like you are the ones scoffing at Hitchens, implying some sort of superiority. Hike up your tic-tacs and back it up.

MadisonConservative on July 2, 2008 at 7:33 PM

I admit, despite my disagreement with Hitchens on principle, I think there are a lot of pathetic internet tough guys here. Why don’t you all try it first, big men?
MadisonConservative on July 2, 2008 at 6:17 PM

I have.
Twice.
Once at Camp Mackall SERE school
A few years later at Camp Peary in a sort of a SERE grad school.

It is damned uncomfortable.
it is damned scary.
And when it is over, it is no worse than a really bad dream.
All your body parts are still there, still functioning. Even any bruises from it are your own fault from useless struggling, and fade quickly.
And as to long term psychological effects: I’ve seen movies and even single images that have haunted me more deeply and for longer.
It is not torture.

LegendHasIt on July 2, 2008 at 7:49 PM

Why don’t you all try it first, big men?

I would do it for charity but I wouldn’t last more than a few seconds.

aengus on July 2, 2008 at 7:50 PM

Again, I was addressing those here who haven’t, yet who chastised him for it. And I do know that many rolling their eyes haven’t done it. I haven’t done it, but I’m not shallow enough to pass judgment on those who have.

MadisonConservative on July 2, 2008 at 8:18 PM

Atheist haters, huh?

I don’t believe religious people hate atheists. Atheists only bother the religious people who don’t really believe what they want to believe. We atheists are a threat to those people because we make them hate themselves.

The people who really hate atheists are those people who claim to be agnostics. But there really is no such thing as an agnostic. People who call themselves “agnostics” fall into two categories: believers who know how stupid it is, and believers who think calling themselves agnostic gives them an upper hand in an argument.

An agnostic never argues with a theist because the agnostic has already admitted he doesn’t know the answer. The real joy agnostics get out of claiming to be agnostic is that they think their inability to make up their minds makes them superior to someone who has made up their mind.

That’s all they get out of it. Because they believe. Agnostics argue the theists point of view because they think they’re smarter than everyone else.

Jaynie59 on July 2, 2008 at 8:56 PM

Wow I thought they would be using a lot more water. That’s all it takes? It must be extremely uncomfortable. What was deal with the music?

ronsfi on July 2, 2008 at 9:20 PM

what a wussy… and – the W + the P

Kaptain Amerika on July 2, 2008 at 9:35 PM

MadisonConservative on July 2, 2008 at 7:33 PM

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again you can waterboard me for the security of America…

Kaptain Amerika on July 2, 2008 at 9:36 PM

Wow I thought they would be using a lot more water. That’s all it takes? It must be extremely uncomfortable. What was deal with the music?

ronsfi on July 2, 2008 at 9:20 PM

Loud and disorienting. Meant to unsettle whoever is going to get waterboarded.

MadisonConservative on July 2, 2008 at 9:42 PM

How awful for atheists looking death in the face, to have to deal emotionally with the fact that they think their existence is about to cease forever.

inviolet on July 2, 2008 at 6:07 PM

I was dead for billions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit.
- Mark Twain

MB4 on July 2, 2008 at 9:44 PM

He made Mark Twain and gifted him with the wit to ridicule his creator.

::shrugs::

Fatal on July 2, 2008 at 6:12 PM

Is man one of God’s mistakes or is God one of man’s?

MB4 on July 2, 2008 at 9:46 PM

And as to long term psychological effects: I’ve seen movies and even single images that have haunted me more deeply and for longer.

LegendHasIt on July 2, 2008 at 7:49 PM

Someone tricked you into looking at Tubgirl and Goatse side by side?

Lehosh on July 2, 2008 at 9:49 PM

God Himself is ridiculed every day, yet He’s not going anywhere.

Well of course your Invisible Man isn’t going anywhere. He has no legs!

Will see your Mark Twain though and raise you a Martin Luther and a St. Thomas More:

“The best way to drive out the devil,if he will not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and flout him, for he cannot bear scorn.” –Luther

The devil…the prowde spirit…cannot endure to be mocked.” –More

inviolet on July 2, 2008 at 6:16 PM

Only young children who have been frightened by mean people and the addled believe in the Devil.

MB4 on July 2, 2008 at 9:53 PM

Jaynie59 on July 2, 2008 at 8:56 PM

In my experience, most agnostics I have encountered are actually atheists, not believers, who claim agnosticism to gain an ‘upper hand’ in an argument.

Agnosticism is the cop out, a position which you do not have to intellectually defend. The agnostic claims ignorance assuming it will get them off the hook any time they are painted into a corner of reason.

Grafted on July 2, 2008 at 9:55 PM

Someone tricked you into looking at Tubgirl and Goatse side by side?
Lehosh on July 2, 2008 at 9:49 PM

I have no idea who those people? creatures? are.
And I must assume that I am the better off for it.

LegendHasIt on July 2, 2008 at 9:58 PM

Only young children who have been frightened by mean people and the addled believe in the Devil.

MB4 on July 2, 2008 at 9:53 PM

Jesus (an historical figure) said He saw Satan (aka the devil) fall from Heaven like lightning. Which was He, in your two-part classification opinion?

inviolet on July 2, 2008 at 10:08 PM

I have no idea who those people? creatures? are.
And I must assume that I am the better off for it.
LegendHasIt on July 2, 2008 at 9:58 PM

Do. Not.

Just – walk away, and no one gets hurt. Just walk away.

wise_man on July 2, 2008 at 10:10 PM

I was actually impressed that he lasted as long as he did. I have tremendous respect for Hitchens’ integrity and courage in putting his pro-interrogation views to the test. Also, I appreciate the distinction he is trying to make between this sort of “torture” and the sort used by the enemies of civilization.

However, there is a kind of moral equivalence implied by use of the same word to describe both actions. I take it that Hitchens would say something like “waterboarding is unacceptably bad, but not as bad as other practices” which would save him from inconsistency but defeats the purpose by subjectivizing the definition of torture.

Given that the whole purpose of the procedure is to disorient the subject, his subjective judgment that it is torture remains unconvincing. Especially in light of the fact that he voluntarily underwent the procedure — twice! — it is hard to conclude that it should be categorically prohibited. In fact, having seen the video, I am slightly more inclined to approve of the procedure than I was before, provided that there are sufficient controls in place to avoid abuse.

JackOfClubs on July 2, 2008 at 10:10 PM

LegendHasIt on July 2, 2008 at 9:58 PM

DON’T. JUST DON’T.

MadisonConservative on July 2, 2008 at 10:16 PM

MB4 on July 2, 2008 at 9:53 PM

How could I forget? He also apparently told at least one of His disciples (cf. Luke 4) that He was personally tempted by the devil. Well, whaddya think? Was this man, so praised as a great thinker and teacher by so many who nevertheless don’t believe Him to be God, actually insane in your opinion?

I say “your opinion” of course because what you believe or don’t (or what I believe or don’t for that matter), doesn’t change the truth in the slightest.

And, just by the way? My God DOES have legs. Two Jewish and presumably hairy legs, up there in Heaven. :)

inviolet on July 2, 2008 at 10:20 PM

It is damned uncomfortable….
LegendHasIt on July 2, 2008 at 7:49 PM

Well, imagine that.

We have the usual atheists and homosexuals arguing a definition again. (And although no one’s specifically mentioned it in this discussion, I assume most of them are also vegetarians; for some bizarre reason that seems to be the trifecta of liberal “lifestyle” choices.)

I know this is evil incarnate to the subjectivist mindset, but let’s quit making fun of the retards for a second and REALLY torture them with something called linear logic.

What if (horror of horrors!) waterboarding isn’t just a less-than-polite reception for our “guests” in Gitmo? What if we actually DO decide to call it “torture?”

What then?

So the white-loafered, religiously intolerant and/or non-carnivorous among us will whine about it…

Seriously, what difference could it possibly make?

Liberals offer no alternative suggestions; ever. All they ever do is screech about how incredibly much more they CARE about everything than we do.

When we let liberals set up the discussion on those terms; they can never lose. We can never, ever, not in a million years prove that they don’t care.

But if we refuse to argue on those terms, liberals have nothing else. Nothing.

logis on July 2, 2008 at 11:00 PM

he wooda dug it if they’d only out some scotch in da wawa.

reliapundit on July 2, 2008 at 11:48 PM

wise_man on July 2, 2008 at 10:10 PM
MadisonConservative on July 2, 2008 at 10:16 PM

I shall gladly take both of your advice(s) in this one case. ;-)

I used to know a guy named Goetze…. He was no competition for Cary Grant, but not a grotesque either…. So I guess that isn’t what you are talking about.

And I also suppose that Tubgirl is neither a svelte nymphet at her bath, nor an affectionate nickname for Miss Harriet Tubman.

LegendHasIt on July 2, 2008 at 11:56 PM

Jaynie59 on July 2, 2008 at 8:56 PM

Grafted on July 2, 2008 at 9:55 PM

I think the term agnosticm is very misunderstood. Most assume it is a claim of ignorance (I don’t know whether God exists or not), but this is not exactly correct. Agnosticism is an expression of what knowledge I possess – theism (or atheism) is an expression of what I believe or (don’t believe) based on that knowledge.

I am agnostic, meaning the question of God’s existance is unknowable to me with the information that I have – therefore I am an atheist.

or..

I do not have the knowledge or information necessary that would lead me to the belief in the existance of God (or gods or the Supernatural), therefore I do not believe. My atheism is a function of my agnosticism.

Then again, neither would exactly be my first choice if I had to label myself.

HeIsSailing on July 3, 2008 at 1:19 AM

HeIsSailing on July 3, 2008 at 1:19 AM

There is a flaw in your explanation. Your approach assumes that one does not take into account the unexplained. There are things that everyone encounters that cannot be explained by any scientific means we have created. They cannot be explained with our known senses other than the fact that they did happen. Therefore, it is only logical to conclude that there is something greater at work. What that something is, is irrelevant. It precludes atheism if you accept the possibility that it could be some sort of greater force beyond our absolute understanding. Atheism rejects all notions of higher powers. The consideration of such shows a lack of this conviction.

MadisonConservative on July 3, 2008 at 1:52 AM

What’s with the bashing of agnosticism? What exactly is wrong with admitting that one doesn’t have an answer when one doesn’t? Should I also have to take a side in a specific theory about how the universe came about? I mean, I think even the most ardent atheist would have to admit that he or she doesn’t actually know the answer to that, while the theist would admit their answer comes down to faith. So why can’t I just say “I don’t know.” After all, I don’t.

Grayson on July 3, 2008 at 1:58 AM

Some folks would rather let an imminent attack destroy an elementary school than employ this technique.

I am not one of those.

TheSitRep on July 3, 2008 at 7:38 AM

I consider this a public service announcement:
To all the terrorist, there is a better way, send in for your free water-boarding kit, when you send in your beheading knives.
Be the first on on your block to use this new method of torture. Give up the ol “chop of the heads”, and step into the new modern world of torture….handling and shipping free with each order.

right2bright on July 3, 2008 at 10:04 AM

On to the clip, destined to become a cult classic among atheist-haters of every stripe. Click the image to watch.

Firstly, disagreement is not hate. But mischaracterising disagreement as hate, is in fact hate.

Secondly, torture is in the eye of the beholder. Anything can be considered torture, but the question is what is acceptable interrogation?

I think we should take all these people, feed em till the are fat, dumb, and happy, and then slip in some sodium pentathol.

Lawrence on July 3, 2008 at 10:26 AM

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