Supreme Court: No death penalty for child rape
posted at 3:26 pm on June 25, 2008 by Allahpundit
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5-4, with Kennedy joining the liberals to make a majority and the conservatives in dissent, the same posture for most “values” cases these days and just the latest reminder that Americans are fully justified in their cynicism about how the Court goes about deciding these things. Here’s the opinion. Don’t be afraid to dive in, as Eighth Amendment cases are mercifully jargon-free and Alito’s dissent, which starts on page 42, is a sterling example of his clean, accessible prose style.
The interpretive dilemma for “cruel and unusual punishment” is the same as for all constitutional clauses, except more starkly so: If you follow the originalist model here and define the term by using the Founding Fathers’ standards, then conceivably it’s constitutional to let prisoners be drawn and quartered. Rather than let the amendment process of Article V deal with that, though, the Court long ago decided that “cruel and unusual” should be determined according to society’s “evolving standards of decency.” How do they determine what those standards are? Simple. They use their own standards of decency, then go look for whatever data they can scrounge about social attitudes to make it seem like they’re taking the culture’s pulse. One might suggest, as Alito does, that a better gauge of society’s standards in a democracy are the actual laws that it passes — like, say, laws punishing child rape with death — but in that case, every duly enacted punishment would be constitutional per the Court’s test. So we’re stuck with this charade where the majority pretends that it’s divined some sort of National Ethos against executing child rapists and that it’s merely applying that Ethos instead of imposing its own judgment of what’s right and what’s not and dressing it up as the people’s will.
The irony (just one of many, like why, if this National Ethos exists, the Court doesn’t leave it to the public to pass a constitutional amendment formally recognizing it, or why, per Alito, the Court won’t acknowledge that it’s own prior rulings on the death penalty have prevented a true National Ethos from freely forming) is that America’s standards have actually evolved to be more sensitive to crimes committed against kids. Never has public awareness been greater of how abuse affects children psychologically, and virtually no one disputes that rape, let alone rape of a child, can be life-ruining. Look at the FLDS case, where the possibility of underaged girls being preyed on by men caused a national uproar. No wonder, then, that some states want to raise the penalty on a particularly vicious strain of child abuse. If Kennedy and his pals in the majority were honest about divining the National Ethos, they’d acknowledge that. But as I say, the “evolving standards” line is a scam in the same way that it’s a scam in other cases when the Court tries to divine international standards of opinion by citing statutes from European countries — but never from, say, Saudi Arabia or Iran. (Point being, they shouldn’t be citing foreign law at all.)
Here’s the money passage from Alito responding to Kennedy’s baseline nonsense that only murder is depraved enough to warrant the ultimate punishment. Citations omitted:
With respect to the question of moral depravity, is it really true that every person who is convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death is more morally depraved than every child rapist? Consider the following two cases. In the first, a defendant robs a convenience store and watches as his accomplice shoots the store owner. The defendant acts recklessly, but was not the triggerman and did not intend the killing. In the second case, a previously convicted child rapist kidnaps, repeatedly rapes, and tortures multiple child victims. Is it clear that the first defendant is more morally depraved than the second?
The Court’s decision here stands in stark contrast to Atkins and Roper, in which the Court concluded that characteristics of the affected defendants—mental retardation in Atkins and youth in Roper—diminished their culpability. Nor is this case comparable to Enmund v. Florida, 458 U. S. 782 (1982), in which the Court held that the Eighth Amendment prohibits the death penalty where the defendant participated in a robbery during which a murder was committed but did not personally intend for lethal force to be used. I have no doubt that, under the prevailing standards of our society, robbery, the crime that the petitioner in Enmund intended to commit, does not evidence the same degree of moral depravity as the brutal rape of a young child. Indeed, I have little doubt that, in the eyes of ordinary Americans, the very worst child rapists—predators who seek out and inflict serious physical and emotional injury on defenseless young children—are the epitome of moral depravity.
Quite so. And maybe in the eyes of less ordinary Americans too, as we’ve all heard stories about the sort of special “justice” reserved in prison for inmates convicted of abusing kids. Even ardent opponents of the death penalty, I suspect, wouldn’t shed any extra tears over the execution of a child molester who beats some kid’s head in “merely” to the point of leaving him in a coma versus one who succeeds in finishing the job.
The ultimate irony here is that they’re using an ad hoc metric — the “evolving standards” test that theoretically changes day by day (but only ever towards greater “progressivism”) — to institute what’s actually a fixed, bright-line rule. No death except as repayment for death, because if they allow capital punishment for child rape, what’s next? Capital punishment for violent assault? For larceny, a la 17th century England? Either is unlikely in the extreme, but partly because they don’t trust the public and partly because they know their own test is crap and don’t trust it to produce persuasive distinctions between child rape and some lesser crime in a future case, they’ve decided to simply take the issue off the table. That is to say, after paying lip service to letting the will of the people guide them and trusting the “evolution” of American culture to go the right way, the Court ends up with a diktat set in stone that’s aimed squarely at preventing the sheeple from executing people for petty crimes at some dark distant point down the road. Perfect.
Exit question: Death penalty opponents like to argue that life in prison is actually worse. If you want a murderer to suffer, the theory goes, why give him an easy way out with a hot dose? Stick him in a dingy cell for 50 years and let him waste away. If that’s so, how does it square with Kennedy’s claim that murder is uniquely terrible? If some forms of existence are so physically or psychologically painful that death is actually more humane, then why is the guy who murders a child unthinkingly presumed to have done more harm than one who beats, rapes, or otherwise abuses him until he’s a basket case condemned to a life of misery? And, follow-up question: If we’re taking Kennedy and those death penalty opponents seriously (which we’re not), does their assertion that child rapists haven’t done as much harm as murderers mean that rapists should be executed because, after all, execution’s supposedly a lesser punishment?
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The face of the Court changeth.
madmonkphotog on June 25, 2008 at 3:28 PM
No death penalty for child rapists but death penalties for unborn children. Sad.
Mojave Mark on June 25, 2008 at 3:28 PM
Too many words, short attention span.
Anywho, the fact that this dipsh*t will be allowed to get off light is sickening. Thanks libs!
amerpundit on June 25, 2008 at 3:29 PM
to liberals, child rape is just another lifestyle choice.
kirkill on June 25, 2008 at 3:30 PM
The only reason that the death penalty in this case would not be proportional is because the state would not be allowed to torture him first.
Think_b4_speaking on June 25, 2008 at 3:31 PM
Fine, no death penalty for a child rapist. Then no protective custody for him either… put him GENERAL POPULATION.
m1a1usmc on June 25, 2008 at 3:31 PM
Needs ‘alphie’ to chime in on how liberals are all
FOR THE CHILDREN!
It is ok to kill the result of the rape but not the pervert.
Sir Napsalot on June 25, 2008 at 3:32 PM
I agree we need to be more merciful.
If Justice Kennedy, Justice Ginsberg, et al are brutally raped, I propose the perp get sentenced to 2 hours of community service.
How compassionate is that?
NoDonkey on June 25, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Excellent point.
Spirit of 1776 on June 25, 2008 at 3:33 PM
I am generally against the death penalty, but this is a pretty crappy opinion.
Squid Shark on June 25, 2008 at 3:35 PM
NoDonkey!
Long time no see.
Squid Shark on June 25, 2008 at 3:35 PM
Great exit question AllahP, for a minute I thought I was reading an Ed post!
There are usually multiple counts against these cretins too, so maybe if there are enough, it would be justified to hang ‘em up by the offending appendage.
kirkill on June 25, 2008 at 3:36 PM
Nothing that the Gang of 14 can’t straighten out.
Attila (Pillage Idiot) on June 25, 2008 at 3:37 PM
I wonder if they would allow castration instead? :-)
JeffinSac on June 25, 2008 at 3:37 PM
As for the argument that this reduces the incentive for the criminal to kill their victims,
Read the justice’s (I refuse to honor it with a capital J) opinion, it has nothing to do with such sentiment. It is all as ‘we become a more mature society’!
Sir Napsalot on June 25, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Ouch! My eyes!
kirkill on June 25, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Allah, you’ve framed it perfectly with your exit question.
Esthier on June 25, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Nail on head. But, possibly, the Court’s disdain for children is shown in both instances?
Anyway, well said.
OhEssYouCowboys on June 25, 2008 at 3:38 PM
How would Obama’s empathetic justices vote on this one? *snicker*
ninjapirate on June 25, 2008 at 3:40 PM
I would rather keep murderers in jail for life.
And immediately put to death anyone who harms an innocent child.
bridgetown on June 25, 2008 at 3:42 PM
The question here isn’t whether a child rapist should get the death penalty. The question is whether the Constitution forbids a state from giving a child rapist the death penalty.
If you argue with the court’s policy views, you’re implicitly saying that the court is entitled to its policy views. It is not.
paul006 on June 25, 2008 at 3:42 PM
From Ed Whelan’s Bench Memos blog at NRO:
By not putting to death the purpetrator of such a crime, it is our society – especially our children – that receives the cruel and unusual punishment.
Forget a painless lethal injection. This POS should be drawn and quartered.
-phil
phile on June 25, 2008 at 3:42 PM
The justices seem to forget that criminal justice is more than punishment; it is also about protecting the population from dangerous individuals, and about preserving standards of behavior. The court failed on all counts in this case, by not punishing the perpetrator harshly enough, leaving the possibility that someday he will be released to strike again (95%+ recidivism rate among child molesters), and by once again stating that standards are not standards, but that they ‘evolve’.
Think_b4_speaking on June 25, 2008 at 3:42 PM
More Hubris on their part. They are so smart, the rest of us just need to follow their
dictateslead to be wiser ourselves.If society’s ethos is evolving and needs to govern what is “cruel and unusual”, let the legislative branch update the laws to reflect them.
OBQuiet on June 25, 2008 at 3:42 PM
Of course, they’d be happy, since they can empathize with rapists so well.
kirkill on June 25, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Long live the Republic… :(
Tim Burton on June 25, 2008 at 3:44 PM
Yeah, w/o the Gang of 14 the vote would have been 7-2
Squid Shark on June 25, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Wow. I think I could cheerfully kill that guy myself.
Tanya on June 25, 2008 at 3:46 PM
It’s better to let someone live in a cell for life? Really?
They get 3 hots and cot for life. Never know work. Access to books. Access to television (cable, no less). Access to medical care. All at the taxpayer expense. In some (not all) respects, a prisoner has a better life than an average citizen.
Some politicians think it is OK to terminate life so that a person is not “punished.” But when we keep alive those that have committed heinous crimes, aren’t we (law abiding citizens) being punished? We are forced, through taxation, to support this vermin’s life.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on June 25, 2008 at 3:47 PM
According to Ginsburg, the proper standard to use is the opinion of European elites.
MarkTheGreat on June 25, 2008 at 3:47 PM
In response to Kennedy saying “The death penalty is not a proportional punishment for the rape of a child.”
Andy McCarthy at the Corner says:
INC on June 25, 2008 at 3:47 PM
Just think what a quandary the Court would be in, if a pregnant child – who was on the way to have an abortion – was brutally raped, resulting in the death of the “fetus.”
The Court’s opinion would be at least 700 pages long.
OhEssYouCowboys on June 25, 2008 at 3:48 PM
Bakersfield Californian today
Alleged molester caught with (3) nude boys in home
Jessica Lunsford was buried alive, btw.
Justice. There is no justice, imho
normsrevenge on June 25, 2008 at 3:49 PM
Excellent post Allah. Was actually a bit surprised at your stance on this.
At any rate, my cousin is a cop and the only time I have ever seen him cry is when he was retelling the story of when he responded to a call and arrived at a house only to find an infant had been raped by its stepfather. Brutal stuff.
Corinthian Jest on June 25, 2008 at 3:49 PM
Wow. That really puts the case in perspective. This one section is surreal.
And apparently she heard him on the phone saying she’d just become a lady. Wonder how that must have felt.
The man’s a monster.
People forget why we punish crime. It isn’t necessarily because it’s the moral thing to do, though it is. It’s also to prevent justifiably angry citizens from taking the law in their own hands.
If the public loses confidence in our justice system, this country will have a serious problem.
Esthier on June 25, 2008 at 3:49 PM
that is very sad
vinllo on June 25, 2008 at 3:50 PM
The ral scary part of this case is the basis on which the decision was made.
michaelo on June 25, 2008 at 3:50 PM
From the Opinion …
C.H., an eight year old girl at the time of the rape, suffered major trauma to her vagina, with her perineum entirely torn and her rectum protruding into her vagina. Kennedy, 957 So. 2d at 761. To recover, C.H. had to be tube-fed gallons of stool softener Id. at 761.
I’m not really the vindictive type, but I hope that dude is sodomized to death in prison. God bless that poor girl.
Blacksheep on June 25, 2008 at 3:51 PM
With the level of govt provided protection the justices receive, the chances of any of them getting raped, burglarized, etc. are pretty close to nil.
Which explains why these guys have absolutely no concept of how much damage opinions like these do to the security of the rest of. Those who can’t afford to live in gated communities and have private security gaurds wherever we go.
MarkTheGreat on June 25, 2008 at 3:51 PM
Super.
Allahpundit on June 25, 2008 at 3:52 PM
The money quote from Kennedy’s idiot decision:
(quoting Coker v. Georgia)
Translation: The term cruel and unusual is defined at whim by me and four of my colleagues; neither the opinions of the legislature nor those of the rest of you little people down there are of any particular consequence. Enjoy what’s left of your democracy.
morganfrost on June 25, 2008 at 3:52 PM
Could the statute be visited again in the future? If say, a liberal justice were replaced with a constructionist justice, couldn’t a different SCOTUS review a different case and rule they way we wish that had? They do have a history of overturning their own precedents.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on June 25, 2008 at 3:53 PM
This from your link:
.
That says it all, right there
Think_b4_speaking on June 25, 2008 at 3:54 PM
God, I hope people wake up to what Obama would do to that court. His supporters are the ones who acquitted OJ.
pedestrian on June 25, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Racist! Come on. You know someone was going to say it!
/sarc
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on June 25, 2008 at 3:57 PM
That was one motivated critique, AP. Thanks.
BTW, I heard on the radio this PM that John Moore is up for parole after forty years. He confessed to the rape and murder of Pamela Moss, 14, (and the rape of two others) in return for being sentenced to life in prison without parole, rather than the death penalty he was facing.
The standard for life in prison without parole has evolved, too, it appears.
Dusty on June 25, 2008 at 3:57 PM
How about castration?
malan89 on June 25, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Beat me too it.
malan89 on June 25, 2008 at 3:59 PM
In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
So congress should make laws removing the court’s jurisdiction regarding abortion and capital punishment as enacted by the states, how prisoners of war (legal and illegal combatants) are treated by the DoD, whatever.
We elect congress. Congress sits idly by. Therefore, we sit all idly by.
Akzed on June 25, 2008 at 3:59 PM
as long as we have judicial review of the constutionality of laws then we live in a judicial tyranny. The supreme court usurped this power in marbury v madison. it is not granted them in the constitution.
congress and the president need to take this power from them. by ignoring their rulings and/or passing a constitutional amendment stating that the congress and president decide what is constitutional, not the courts, and any ruling of the courts can be overriden by a simple majority of congess, or an executive order of the president.
right4life on June 25, 2008 at 3:59 PM
*TO
PUBLIC SCHOOL GRAMMAR…EPIC FAIL!
malan89 on June 25, 2008 at 3:59 PM
Following the court’s logic, I think we should start executing the victims of child rape. You cannot make the argument that the victim has a potentially high quality of life. Would it not be “cruel and unusual” to let the damaged individual (victim) live? Therefore, the previous mentioned “treatment” for the victim should be enacted.
/sarc with a purpose
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on June 25, 2008 at 4:00 PM
It’s not about the magnitude of the punishment, but whether it’s “cruel and unusual.” Torture, sodomy with a broom, and being forced to spend 1000 hours listening to reggae are all lesser punishments than life or death, but they’re never used as government-mandated punishments because of their cruelty or unusualness. I understand what you’re arguing with saying that rape is in some instances worse than murder, but, just because some opponents to the death penalty say something similar doesn’t mean that Kennedy believes it. Have you an example of the same person saying that death is getting off easier than life also saying that only murderers should be executed?
That said, I don’t know much about this particular ruling, and, being opposed to the death penalty, I don’t much care. I don’t think the government should seek and fund the death of anyone not actively threatening national or personal security. We’ve got a secure enough system that the larger society no longer has to worry about those we’ve resolved to lock up forever. It olden days, that wasn’t the case, so execution was a lot more understandable then. (Unfortunately, the system is not perfect enough that those found guilty are all guilty, one of many reasons to oppose capital punishment.)
A life sentence is worse than death in one sense: You won’t have a cadre of lawyers automatically working for your gratis after getting a life sentence.
calbear on June 25, 2008 at 4:00 PM
I have no words for how unspeakably vile this crime truly is. Murder? Murder can be done in a second of deranged anger.
Rape is calculated. You have to plan it, think about it, and execute it. Not much, but there’s definite thought involved. Child rape is the blackest kind cruelty – a spitting in the face of defenseless innocence. It is violation, corruption, and destruction incarnate.
To plan such a thing bespeaks of a deep evil. How it got there is essentially irrelevant. Such people must be eliminated from the population or we dare not claim to be a just society that protects its citizens.
TheUnrepentantGeek on June 25, 2008 at 4:02 PM
Awful….simply an awful opinion.
I endorse extending the death penalty option for all crimes where deadly force could have been legitimately used by the victim.
LimeyGeek on June 25, 2008 at 4:03 PM
The standard is not cruel or unusual, but cruel and unusual.
Not bustin yer balls, but why oppose the death penalty but not life w/o parole if life w/o parole is worse than death? It is totally illogical to hold that a fate less than death is a fate worse than death.
Akzed on June 25, 2008 at 4:04 PM
In this case, I do not want to “evolve”. This type of “change” is not acceptable.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on June 25, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Has ANYONE done more damage to liberty and the United States this year than Anthony Kennedy?
Dirthead on June 25, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Well, that’s kind of unfair, framing opposition to the death penalty as a function of life imprisonment being worse. I don’t know many death penalty opponents who make that argument.
A better argument against the death penalty is the conservative argument. For one thing, death penalty cases are more expensive to taxpayers than life imprisonment. But more importantly, it’s a matter of limiting government power – a government should never legally be able to take the life of one of its own citizens, except when that citizen is an imminent threat, i.e., a police officer shoots and kills someone in the middle of committing a violent act. Short of that, there’s no good reason for the government to have that kind of power – the risks far outweigh the perceived benefits.
Enrique on June 25, 2008 at 4:08 PM
…and right now he has the 2nd Amendment by the hair.
Akzed on June 25, 2008 at 4:08 PM
What would happen if the citizens of a state made an issue like this a ballot initiative and the initiative passed? Would we get the same ruling? Or would the citizens of that particular state de-evolve?
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on June 25, 2008 at 4:09 PM
Perhaps we need to go back to our roots.
The time when child rapers didn’t get multi-million dollar defenses from bleeding heart lawyers and jackass “justices”.
They got hung from trees by enraged citizens.
Good thing we’re much more civilized now, when child rapers get three hots and a cot, conjugal visits, cable TV and eventual parole.
NoDonkey on June 25, 2008 at 4:09 PM
Again, SCOTUS has trumped the other two branches of government. “Checks and balances”? It’s hard to see it from here.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on June 25, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Must be nice to have such absolute values that you don’t even need to look into what happened to form an opinion. I can’t help but wonder if you’d feel differently if the child was yours. But I guess not — like you said, you really “don’t much care.”
Blacksheep on June 25, 2008 at 4:10 PM
No one argues that but you. Classic straw-man.
I’m against the death penalty but I agree this is a stupid ruling. It should be left up to each state, no matter what the other states think.
B26354 on June 25, 2008 at 4:10 PM
our laws, and constitution mean what 5 ‘learned’ people on the supreme court says it means…
we do not live in a republic or a democracy, rather a judicial tyranny. our masters tell us what our laws means….until this fundamentally changes, nothing will improve.
right4life on June 25, 2008 at 4:11 PM
But more importantly, it’s a matter of limiting government
1. So you know better than the Founding Fathers?
2. The deterrent nature of capiptal punishment is twofold: to prevent the perpetrator from repeating his crime, and to strike fear in those who would commit the same crime.
It was either a study or a book, but last year Michael Medved interviewed an author who proved that each instance of cappital punishment saved 18 lives. Sorry I can’t recall any more details, I just recall being convinced by the man’s data and argument.
Akzed on June 25, 2008 at 4:12 PM
That doesn’t pass the smell test. Who fed you that spoonful of poop?
Our government should dispense justice. I look at the death penalty as “justifiable deadly force by proxy” – delivering that deadly justice on behalf of the victim.
LimeyGeek on June 25, 2008 at 4:13 PM
Sigh…
I Repeat…
WE USED TO HANG HORSE THIEVES!
why are child rapists more than that?
when did we get so DANG WUSS_I_FIED????
makes me sick.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on June 25, 2008 at 4:14 PM
We no longer have a Justice system.
all we have is a legal system.
I prefer the former.
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on June 25, 2008 at 4:14 PM
It’s actually true but primarily because of court costs.
Esthier on June 25, 2008 at 4:15 PM
Yes, because these guys kill guards, convicts and in the case of gang leaders, order hits on citizens outside the prison walls.
Dead men tell no tales and dead men don’t kill guards, other prisoners or order hits on people outside of prison.
Five of our “justices” are complete idiots who need to be removed from the Supreme Court TODAY.
NoDonkey on June 25, 2008 at 4:15 PM
Technically they can only make these laws. They don’t have the authority to enforce them.
I would love to wake up one day and see our president make that point after another stupid verdict.
Esthier on June 25, 2008 at 4:20 PM
What is that Liberal anthem,oh ya its always about the
children.The death penalty would insure no repeat
offenders,ever!
canopfor on June 25, 2008 at 4:20 PM
I think you are the victim of a masterful bullshit artist.
Think about it. Court costs? Seriously? That’s twaddle.
Whether the person is sentenced to death or life imprisonment, the judicial proceedings were identical, incurring identical costs.
Life imprisonment is a long-term fiscal drain.
LimeyGeek on June 25, 2008 at 4:21 PM
After reading the ruling it can be summed up as: The death sentence cannot be used in child rape cases because this is the only state in the union that has this law. I wonder how many states have to pass similar laws before the court would change their mind? Yeah, like that would make a difference.
Obvious case of tyranny from the bench.
Buford on June 25, 2008 at 4:24 PM
That’s certainly not true. It’s practically the mantra for many death penalty opponents.
In order to survive, a government must prove that it is useful, and it is no more useful than its ability to protect its citizens.
Aside from outside threats the government has no better proof of its protection that law enforcement. Bad rulings like this will easily erode the public’s trust in the government to protect its citizens.
When that happens, the rule of law be damned, people will do what they consider justice and be hailed as heroes for their actions.
Esthier on June 25, 2008 at 4:24 PM
You know, that sounds a lot like what a Kossack would write regarding dead troops and the people ambivalent about the war. Just because I don’t have a dog in this fight doesn’t mean I wish all dogs ill.
calbear on June 25, 2008 at 4:25 PM
At least you think it was a masterful one. I guess I shouldn’t feel too insulted then.
But no, the court costs aren’t the same. Appeals, appeals, appeals… We always try to make sure that we’ve got the right person, even if it means 20 years and 20 court trials have passed.
Esthier on June 25, 2008 at 4:26 PM
I don’t know which is worse, but I do know which is easier to reverse in the case of a faulty finding.
calbear on June 25, 2008 at 4:26 PM
No, it’s different because you’ve actually said that you don’t care.
No one’s saying that for you, you said it for yourself.
If I said that soldier’s deaths mean nothing to mean, the Kossacks would be right to use my own words against me. It wouldn’t make my argument wrong. It would just make me a horrible human being.
Esthier on June 25, 2008 at 4:27 PM
No one argues that but you.
[B26354 on June 25, 2008 at 4:10 PM]
I think you mean no one argues that except you, John Kerry and a host of other anti-death penalty advocates.
Wasn’t it Kerry that qualified the death penalty for bin Laden but not others because life in prison is worse than death?
Dusty on June 25, 2008 at 4:28 PM
You can’t reverse an innocent man’s 30 years in maximum security either. What’s done is done either way. Keep in mind that perfect justice simply cannot be had in this world. The choice is not between perfect justice and injustice, but between the best justice possible in this world, and injustice.
Akzed on June 25, 2008 at 4:32 PM
lousy formatting: The “you” meant your referring to AP.
Dusty on June 25, 2008 at 4:32 PM
That’s not their only argument, but you’re telling me you’ve never heard that offered before? Every death penalty discussion I’ve ever had with an opponent eventually touches on it. Usually it takes the form of, “If it were me, I’d rather be executed than spend my life rotting away in jail.”
Allahpundit on June 25, 2008 at 4:33 PM
No, she’s right. Think how much longer the trials run, how many more hours the prosecuters and public defenders have to spend on the case to make it presentable/defendable. And that’s not even starting on the lengthy and repeated appeals. And higher security and a private cell in prison while they’re still alive.
Which doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done. But it’s true.
Tanya on June 25, 2008 at 4:33 PM
they can’t make the laws, but our congress and president dont’ have the guts to stand up to them
it would be nice if bush would have said as jackson did, ‘kennedy made his ruling, now let him enforce it’
right4life on June 25, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Yep.
Let’s see… where to start on this bit? First, don’t forget that ‘penal’ has to do with ‘punisnment’ rather than ‘prevention.’ Second, this maggot has already threatened someone’s personal security – the little girl he raped.
Wish this were true, but all too often ‘life without parole’ is something less than ‘in prison for the rest of your life.’ These days, judges let convicts out because of prison overcrowding or a whole host of other reasons. If they ‘behave’ themselves in prison – where they can’t prey on little girls anyway – they can be adjudged to no longer be a threat to society, and some lenient judge can and often will release them.
Appeals are appeals. And, usually, there is a cadre of lawyers trying for a mistrial, a technicality, or anything at all to get their client off.
True dat, playa – but most of those so convicted are guilty. That’s also why there is a standard of ‘reasonable doubt’ – that standard works in favor of the defendant, not the prosecution.
Or, to put it in another light: it is possible that those sentenced to prison may also be not guilty (no one is – just as anybody in prison). It is, of course, a miscarriage of justice to deprive an innocent person of their fundamental right to liberty (a la Declaration of Independence). It can be argued that an imprisoned person can receive their liberty back (unlike, so the argument goes, a possibly wrongfully executed criminal). While this is true, releasing that prisoner does nothing to restore the time lost while imprisoned. In fact, the second law of thermodynamics makes such ‘restitution of time’ impossible under the laws of physics as we know them. Therefore, it is just as logically sound to argue that we should eliminate prisons for the same reason we should eliminate capital punishment – because both remove something from the wrongly convicted that cannot be made right again.
psrch on June 25, 2008 at 4:36 PM
Yes, that’s exactly what I was thinking of, though I couldn’t quite remember it.
That would be an exciting day.
Esthier on June 25, 2008 at 4:37 PM
Execution is not murder.
aengus on June 25, 2008 at 4:37 PM
To be is better than not to be, not matter how you slice it. Did you know that Richard Speck got breast implants in prison paid for by the state of IL? He apparently would rather be in prison than not to be – or to be in hell.
Akzed on June 25, 2008 at 4:37 PM
I said that I don’t much care about this particular ruling. To the extent that I care about the fate of victims and murderers, I care about the people involved here. But only to that extent. That’s what I’m saying. The flippant way I put it was perhaps not appropriate, but so is twisting what I said to mean something else entirely.
You know, I was always astonished that Dukakis flubbed the death penalty question he got, which was quite similar to the rhetoric you are employing. If I’d been asked about the fate of my wife’s murderer, I’d say that of course I would want that man’s death, but that’s the whole reason we don’t allow vigilantism; it’s not the victim or the family that determines the punishment, but “the people.” That way we have a system of law and order, rather than a system based on who wants whom dead. (I’d also say that that was an inappropriate way of phrasing the question, and I’d demand an apology of the person asking it, especially since Bernard Shaw tastelessly used Dukakis’ wife’s name.)
calbear on June 25, 2008 at 4:41 PM
I understand what you’re saying, but there are appeals for lifers too. Ultimately, I would want to see some empirical evidence to support this claim – I consider it highly suspicious. The ongoing costs of lifetime incarceration seem far more likely to outweigh accumulated legal fees (and be sure to discriminate between those borne by the defence, and those borne by the state).
Either way, I do hope you’re not suggesting that justice should be dispensed in accordance with costs. Justice has costs, and we should be glad to bear them in order to live in a society where justice has integrity.
In theory….
LimeyGeek on June 25, 2008 at 4:42 PM
A Time to Kill.
This is exactly what the U.S. Supreme Court is inviting here. Those outraged enough at the Cruel and Unusual Crime of child rape may want to take the law into their own hands, since the Supreme Court will not deliver justice to the victims.
newton on June 25, 2008 at 4:42 PM
The argument of costs is irrelevant mostly because if you eliminate the death sentence, lawyers will switch to constantly appealing life in prison without parole and you’ll be paying the equivalent death penalty appeal costs + the life in prison costs anyway.
Dusty on June 25, 2008 at 4:45 PM
The determination of the people was precisely what was taken away by this decision. The people – meaning their elected officials – set a penalty; the SCOTUS decided they didn’t like it, and overruled the will of the people.
psrch on June 25, 2008 at 4:47 PM
Yeah, I did too, and guess what, I actually saw some. Crazy, I know.
It’s not my pet cause, so I don’t have it handy, but I’m sure someone here does.
No offense intended, but your flippant way came across just as it was twisted. I believe you that you didn’t mean it that way, but I don’t think it was twisted intentionally.
Esthier on June 25, 2008 at 4:48 PM
You really couldn’t google it yourself? It took me five seconds to find this site which links half a dozen studies saying that execution is more expensive, in ten different states.
As for your second point, I already said that I wasn’t against the death penalty.
Tanya on June 25, 2008 at 4:48 PM
There are no little girls in a men’s prison, so none are being actively threatened; many lifers rot without any active post-sentencing pro bono council; I would be curious to hear your examples of people who got let out of prison due to overcrowding when they were supposed to be there forever (or, better yet, statistics on this phenomenon you cite); and while you cannot restore time spent in prison, you can restore freedom for the remainder of life, not an option for the executed.
calbear on June 25, 2008 at 4:50 PM
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