you insist that Ma’an is a reliable news agency.

You gave me an article where at most a stupid math mistake was made and you discount everything from that news agency until the end of time. This is ridiculous. Besides, the conclusion is not necessarily significant. Food supplies would more accurately be measured by the pound, not the lorry load. So maybe Israel shipped 20% more food supplies by the pound and simply shipped it in 33% more lorries. Grow up.

You cite no “eyewitness” reports to counter my Ynet news article

Maybe you can staret with the MSNBC article linked to in the thread by Morrissey:
“A neighbor said a Palestinian bystander was also shot to death by troops when he opened the door of his apartment during the raid.”

Genius.

We’re done. I’m going to talk to the wall. I find it far more responsive.

dave742 on June 24, 2008 at 8:28 PM

It doesn’t matter how many, or how few Israelis are killed by Palestinian terrorists, there shouldn’t be any.

You say that Palestinians lie, and the Israelis at B’tselem lie, so I guess I can only trust the IDF. I’ve seen your B’tselem rebutals before, but haven’t gotten around to writing something up on it. I guess I will do it now that I’ve been shown it yet again. Next time.

You showed me how great it is that Israel only killed 131 Palestinian civilians in 2006 vs. 348 the year before. Fine. But in 2006 17 Israeli civilians were killed. That’s a difference.

Ma’an News is a Palestinian news outlet that cannot be counted as a reliable news organization

They were quoting Israeli news. You’re saying they simply lied? When they quote Israel sources that thousands are coming over the fence, the real number is zero? Is the photo also a lie?

the terrorists’ cowardly pratice of hiding in the civilian population

Baseless. The only documented use of human shield use is by Israel.

Palestinian terrorists deliberately target Israeli civilians

Is this true for Hezbollah terrorists as well? Because here are some numbers from the 2006 war (off the top of my head – they are close enough):

Israeli civilians killed: 20
Israeli soldiers killed: 120

Lebanese civilians killed: over 1,000 (and counting, since they are still dying due to the two million plus cluster bomblets the civilian-conscious Israel dropped 24 hours before the end of the war)
Hezbollah soldiers killed: 250 max

So terrorists aim for civilians, but they kill 6 times as many soldiers as civilians. Israel works tirelessly to not kill civilians, but they kill four times as many civilians as fighters.
Either the terrorists are terrible at targeting civilians, or Israel is terrible at avoiding civilians

Can you show me where your read this?

Here.

During the operation Abu Ra’ali barricaded himself in an apartment with another gunman and the two opened fire on the Israeli troops after refusing to turn themselves in.

The two were killed in the ensuing exchange of fire. A sweep of the apartment after the operation revealed several explosives devices, an AK-47 assault rifle, ammunition and other paramilitary equipment.

Ynet is a good source for news.

Can you show me an instance where Palestinians where stopped at a checkpoint trying to sneak bombs through?

Yes.

IDF soldiers manning the Hawara checkpoint near the West Bank city of Nablus apprehended on Sunday an 18-year-old Palestinian who was carrying six pipe bombs, a bullet cartridge and a bag full of what appeared to be gunpowder.

[...] In recent years the army has foiled numerous attempts to smuggle explosives and weapons through Hawara, which is located south of Nablus. Three weeks ago a 20-year-old Palestinian carrying three explosive devices was shot dead by soldiers at the checkpoint.

There are multiple examples of Palestinians trying to sneak explosives through the checkpoints. They’ve used children on a regular basis.

So even with easy access to Israel, how many “terrorist” attacks have there been in Israel over the past couple years originating from the West Bank?

That’s because of several things: The fence in part, and also the Israeli security services’ intense work to find and expose terror plots before they happen. Why do you think Hamas is using rockets instead of blowing up buses now? Because they can’t. If they could, they’d be doing it. Israel has made it that much harder.

In case you didn’t know, the vast majority of civilians murdered are Palestinians.

That’s a false comparison. While it is true that numerically, more Palestinian civilians have been killed than Israeli civilians, when you compare actual statistics, a higher percentage of Israeli civilians has been killed. (Those stats have been updated but I can’t remember where at the moment.)

The reasons for the higher percentage: Palestinian terrorists deliberately target Israeli civilians. Israeli forces have been working for years to hit terrorists without causing civilian casualties; an impossible task due to the terrorists’ cowardly pratice of hiding in the civilian population. But compare the Palestinian civilian casualty rate this year with the one in 2004. Try not to use Palestinian statistics; they lie on a regular basis about whether the dead are civilians. (Funny how so many Palestinians were killed while out having a picnic near the site of rocket launchers.) Civilian casualty rates have gone down. Not so for terrorists, of course. And B’tselem has been known to cook the books as well. But even they acknowledge that Palestinian civilian deaths are down significantly.

Ma’an News is a Palestinian news outlet that cannot be counted as a reliable news organization. Its editors can’t even do simple math that would show that Israel is NOT violating the agreement to let more goods into Gaza.

I know, all Palestinians are “terrorists”.

Nice little bit of slander there, dave. I never said that.

The Palestinians will put down their bottle rockets as soon as Israel puts down their tanks and F-16’s.

Bottle rockets? You’ve never taken a good look at the rockets that have killed 12 and wounded more than 500 Israelis.

Their use goes back 7 years, and 22 Israeli civilians have been killed by kassam rockets.

A bottle rocket can’t kill you. A kassam can, and has, killed many.

You might want to try using facts next time. Real ones, that is.

They had information of a terrorist attack about to take place in the West Bank.

Yes. And the Americans had information about WMD in Iraq. Can you show me where your read this?

They killed them because they were fired upon.

Can you please tell me where you read this?

Israel isn’t including the West Bank because that’s where most terrorist attacks originate. Checkpoints are still stopping Palestinians with bombs and weapons

Can you show me an instance where Palestinians where stopped at a checkpoint trying to sneak bombs through? Why would they do this when they can simply jump the “fence.” According to this article, Israel’s channel two reported that over 17,000 Palestinian workers were arrested over a two months period, and over 2,500 in two weeks. If I wanted to bring a bomb into Israel, I’d climb the fence before trying to go through a checkpoint. So even with easy access to Israel, how many “terrorist” attacks have there been in Israel over the past couple years originating from the West Bank?

If the Palestinians really wanted a truce, they would simply lay down their arms and stop trying to murder Israelis.

In case you didn’t know, the vast majority of civilians murdered are Palestinians. I know, all Palestinians are “terrorists”. The Palestinians will put down their bottle rockets as soon as Israel puts down their tanks and F-16’s. That’s what’s called a truce. A truce has to be declared everywhere to work, however. Israel’s “Gaza not the West Bank” strategy of declaring a truce in one area while continuing to kill people in the other is not really a truce.

Israel knew Islamic Jihad would respond, which is exactly why they killed the Islamic Jihad members.

That’s bull. The Israeli security services were arresting a “ticking bomb”. They had information of a terrorist attack about to take place in the West Bank. The terrorists declined to come quietly. They were killed. The Israelis didn’t kill them because they were PIJ members. They killed them because they were fired upon.

Rockets do not enter or leave Gaza without Hamas’ permission and knowledge. Why do you think there were five days of calm?

It is a fiction that Hamas can’t control PIJ. It is also a fiction that the Palestinians want a “real” truce. Hamas has stepped up weapons smuggling and training in the last five days.

But at a Friday sermon in Gaza, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said the deal did not include a ban on smuggling, and he would not enforce it on militants in the coastal strip.

Israel isn’t including the West Bank because that’s where most terrorist attacks originate. Checkpoints are still stopping Palestinians with bombs and weapons. If the Palestinians really wanted a truce, they would simply lay down their arms and stop trying to murder Israelis. As the saying goes, if the Arabs laid down their weapons, there would be peace. If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no Israel.

Let’s say that hamas gets everything they want.

What exactly do they offer to the world that anyone would want except for an undereducated improvished populace that will fall for any propoganda that those in power to arm and cause caos to the highest bidder?

This theory has been proven wrong for these groups many, many times. In fact, “Palestinian” is a totally artificial construct which has no basis in law or history. It is a complete waste of time to sign agreements with any of them.

To continue treating any of these groups as actual organizations with responsible leadership is both ignorant and insane.

Meanwhile, MS-NBC continues to prove itself incompetent and dishonest at news gathering and delivery: it is a total waste of bandwidth.

“…before Hamas launched rockets at Israeli civilians. Islamic Jihad launched the attack…”

Hamas and Islamic Jihad are different organizations, and the two names should not be used interchangeably. Israel killed two Islamic Jihad members, and it was Islamic Jihad who claimed responsibility for the rocket fire.

When the truce was made, Khaled Batsh of Islamic Jihad said that if an “Islamic Jihad militant was killed in the West Bank the group would respond.”
Israel knew Islamic Jihad would respond, which is exactly why they killed the Islamic Jihad members.

Not even the Palestinians fall for this game any longer. Unfortunately, MS-NBC is more gullible antisemitic than most.

Better.

Just in the tank for all things Obama and all things Anti-US/Isreali.

Well, there’s more to it. Israel conducted a raid in the West Bank (not covered by the Gaza cease-fire) against the Islamic Jihad (not covered by the cease-fire with Hamas). In retaliation for Israel killing terrorists who supposedly have nothing……

Even the local news reporters reflexively blame Israel for everything and give the actual terrorists a pass. It’s some kind of industry-based contagious mental illness.

That says it all.

But as biased as the Times may be, they still have a certain sense of where the line can’t be crossed, before they marginalize themselves with all but a handful of their far left readers. Not so with sites like Kos, where anti-Israeli propaganda, and anti-Semitic rants, are out there for everyone to see. So if the staff at MSNBC is getting their anti-Bush/McCain/Fox News/Limbaugh/etc. talking points from sites like that, it wouldn’t be surprising that anti-Israeli riffs would start making their way into the news stories (I’m just surprised MSNBC let their exclusive deal with Pat Buchanan slip away, since his views on Israel would be right at home with most of the websites the news staff there has on their favorite bookmark list).