Dobson: Obama is “dragging biblical understanding through the gutter”

posted at 11:10 pm on June 23, 2008 by Allahpundit

Why this, why now? Probably because Obama’s evangelical outreach is just starting to gear up and Dobson wants to use his influence to blunt it before it can build up steam. Whether he’s doing that out of loyalty to the GOP, genuine concern over a pro-choice candidate peeling away Christian voters, or just the usual craving for attention, I leave to you to decide. Here’s the money section from Obama’s speech on faith two years ago:

Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God’s will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

Now this is going to be difficult for some who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do. But in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice. Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. It involves the compromise, the art of what’s possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It’s the art of the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God’s edicts, regardless of the consequences. To base one’s life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime, but to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing.

The example he gives to make his point is Abraham preparing to kill Isaac on God’s command, as though the moral argument against abortion were no more coherent or “universal” than the voice in some zealot’s head. Dobson’s rejoinder:

Dobson reserved some of his harshest criticism for Obama’s argument that the religiously motivated must frame debates over issues like abortion not just in their own religion’s terms but in arguments accessible to all people.

He said Obama, who supports abortion rights, is trying to govern by the “lowest common denominator of morality,” labeling it “a fruitcake interpretation of the Constitution.”

“Am I required in a democracy to conform my efforts in the political arena to his bloody notion of what is right with regard to the lives of tiny babies?” Dobson said. “What he’s trying to say here is unless everybody agrees, we have no right to fight for what we believe.”

That’s not what he’s trying to say. What he’s trying to say is that it’d be unfair and unconstitutional to make policy based on the ipse dixits of some religion’s God. You’re fully entitled to fight for what you believe, but if you’re going to turn it into law, you need a better justification as a legal matter than “Because God says so.” Otherwise, the only people who will understand it — not agree with it, necessarily, but understand it (i.e. who’ll find it “accessible”) — are people of your own faith. What’s obnoxious about the passage from his speech isn’t that he thinks policy needs to be based on more than a Biblical imprimatur, it’s that he’d choose abortion, of all things, as the example to illustrate his point. That’s a sly, convenient way for him to dodge the issue by implicitly reducing the pro-life position to nothing more rational than one of those holy say-so’s, something he can agree with as a God-fearing Christian but as a lawmaker in a pluralistic country is obliged to dismiss. Note to St. Barack: You don’t have to be a Christian or even a theist to find the pro-life position “accessible.” He knows that, of course, but this issue is so dicey for him with the evangelicals he’s trying to woo that he’s forced to try this feeble sleight of hand as a way of getting it off the table. Think it’ll work, when viewed in the soft glow of his Lightworker halo? Ask Doug Kmiec.

Exit question: Bizarrely, I got three separate e-mails this morning pointing to the year-old video of Obama saying America’s no longer a Christian nation. WND even wrote it up today. Were people connected to Dobson circulating that to lay the groundwork for this broadside, or has it been circulating independently for who knows what reason over the past couple of weeks and maybe that’s what inspired him to speak up now?

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He is the Way and the Lightworker.

Why fight it?

SlimyBill on June 23, 2008 at 11:14 PM

Obama makes a good point about having to sell an idea, whatever it’s basis, to Americans of different beliefs.

I’d like to believe that a respect for the sanctity of life would transcend a particular belief group, though. I should know better by now.

joewm315 on June 23, 2008 at 11:15 PM

Isn’t Jesus Christ the Section 8 Housing Provider, the Food Stamp Provider, the “Free” Healthcare Provider, the head of Handgun Control, and the Best Man at every gay wedding for all mankind? Don’t tell me Sen. Obama is just making this stuff up.

RBMN on June 23, 2008 at 11:25 PM

Well, like AP I don’t enjoy this now; but it’s not a bad discussion to have in general. Obama’s made some head feints about how religion plays a role in his public policy views/formulation.

Although I’m not sure Dr. Dobson – who is a pretty well read man even if he’s got some dangerous views re the role of the state vis-a-vis religion – is the man I want making it.

SteveMG on June 23, 2008 at 11:25 PM

The most sickening thing ever.

From the link:

But Stanek and other anti-abortion crusaders in Illinois are targeting Obama because he voted on a package of legislation collectively known as the Illinois Born Alive Infants Protection Act.

The legislation came about after Stanek, then a nurse at Christ Hospital in the Chicago suburb of Oak Lawn, witnessed late-term abortions “where babies were being aborted alive and shelved to die in the soiled utility room” of the hospital, in her words.

Stanek, who said she held one of those infants until it died after about 45 minutes, began reaching out to public officials, testifying before both state and national lawmakers.

From 2001 to 2002, Obama voted either “present” or “no” on the legislation

Obama is ok with “shelving” babies born alive until they die.

I mean, WTF.

VolMagic on June 23, 2008 at 11:28 PM

Exit question: Bizarrely, I got three separate e-mails this morning pointing to the year-old video of Obama saying America’s no longer a Christian nation. WND even wrote it up today. Were people connected to Dobson circulating that to lay the groundwork for this broadside, or has it been circulating independently for who knows what reason over the past couple of weeks and maybe that’s what inspired him to speak up now?

Someone sent it to me last week, so it has been going around.

bnelson44 on June 23, 2008 at 11:30 PM

VolMagic on June 23, 2008 at 11:28 PM

From 2001 to 2002, Obama voted either “present” or “no” on the legislation. In his floor speeches at the time, he cited in particular his concerns about the constitutionality of the definition of a “born alive infant” and the inclusion of potential civil and criminal penalties for doctors in these situations. He also warned that the bill might compromise the relationship between a woman and her doctor.

The measure failed in the Illinois statehouse in both 2001 and 2002.

This is sickening

bnelson44 on June 23, 2008 at 11:33 PM

Obama is ok with “shelving” babies born alive until they die. I mean, WTF. VolMagic on June 23, 2008 at 11:28 PM

There’s “hope” for ya by golly.

I knew Obama was a biblical moron when he said that the book of Romans in the bible is obscure. That’s like calling Mozart an obscure composer.

Mojave Mark on June 23, 2008 at 11:35 PM

Once again Allapundit shows his ignorance of the Scriptures (along with Hussein). Yet he continues to display his foolishness to the blogosphere, removing all doubt about his atheist leanings. Keep up the fair work AP.

Andy in Agoura Hills on June 23, 2008 at 11:35 PM

Not at all surprised. As time goes on we are going to see more and more of this. He belonged to a church…doesn’t mean he’s Faithful.

The scary news is I’m not sure we are that much better with the Republican candidate. Not a complete spine between them.

Pilgrim on June 23, 2008 at 11:36 PM

Your Obama supporting Christian friends may also be interested in “Obama is not a Christian”, a post that argues that Obama’s own statements make him out to be a universalist, although he says he is a Christian.

Obama:”I believe there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people.”

“I don’t presume to have knowledge of what happens after I die.”

Post: http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/06/02/barack-obama-is-not-a-christian/

kc8ukw on June 23, 2008 at 11:36 PM

VolMagic on June 23, 2008 at 11:28 PM

No doubt, my friend. There was a headlines article about this several months ago.

That is why I have to cast a vote for John McCain, no matter how much bile I have to swallow in doing so. Obama is the most anti-life candidate in America’s history. Even NARAL was ok with the bill Obama opposed. There’s no accounting for his blind devotion to infanticide. It goes above and beyond anything we have seen before short of Margaret Sanger.

Hell, even she might have let at least the white babies live if they popped out with functioning brains. That would mark them as superior evolutionary specimens, right?

joewm315 on June 23, 2008 at 11:38 PM

Note to AP: Barry O also said the Hebrew Scriptures suggests slavery is OK. Is that assinine enough for you to cover? Or is abortion the only issue YOU think is important in this muslims interpretation of the Judeo-Christion texts?

Andy in Agoura Hills on June 23, 2008 at 11:38 PM

That’s not what he’s trying to say. What he’s trying to say is that it’d be unfair and unconstitutional to make policy based on the ipse dixits of some religion’s God.

Like a law against murder?

bnelson44 on June 23, 2008 at 11:39 PM

Think about this….if all the children aborted over the last forty years had been allowed to live, grow up, get jobs and work, and pay into Social Security would it still be about to go bankrupt? I’m just asking….

Vntnrse on June 23, 2008 at 11:45 PM

Obama wants his cake and eat it too. He claims to be against an all-Christian method in policy making, for example abortion. However he sends out flyers and ads with him preaching from a pulpit with the cross in the background (Huckabee received so much heat for this). I am glad that Dobson is pointing out the hypocrisy of B. Hussein Obama. But I wish he were more supportive of McCain and not let the Obamination into the White House without the support of the evangelicals. As Rush said, third party does not work. At least we can agree with McCain in most cases especially the right to life.

jencab on June 23, 2008 at 11:47 PM

There you go. Your religious convictions against killing babies are only valid if they’re not specific to your religion.

Democracy demands that we replace religion-specific values with “universal” ones.

Typical for Obama, this really means nothing. If you believe abortion is murder, then you have an obligation to oppose it, whether your belief is religiously-motivated or just due to an appreciation that a society that doesn’t value life can easily rationalize denying it to others as convenient.

In short, Obama wants to be enthrone his values above Christian values. Sounds to me like an excellent argument that he’s not a Christian after all.

theregoestheneighborhood on June 23, 2008 at 11:48 PM

Jill Stanek lives a few miles away in southwest suburban Mokena, Illinois. I don’t agree with everything she says, but her pro-life creds are unblemished. She’s lives the life, and has been in the trenches. I great admire her efforts.

And I see nothing wrong with the timing or substance of Dobson’s cannonade. The magnitude of Obama’s stupidity in framing this argument on abortion is staggering.

Jaibones on June 23, 2008 at 11:50 PM

Like a law against murder?

bnelson44 on June 23, 2008 at 11:39 PM

He’d probably argue that rules against murder are common among many religions and most civilizations in history. Though slaves and wives probably haven’t always been fully protected by law from being killed.

dedalus on June 23, 2008 at 11:50 PM

usual craving for attention

An uncharacteristically stupid thing for you to say, AP. The guy’s already got many millions of happy listeners every day. By making political statements (that I sometimes disagree with), Dobson is certainly inviting arrows like yours to hit him in the back, but he is also doing good by warning people about BO’s fake Christianity.

jgapinoy on June 23, 2008 at 11:51 PM

I saw on the cover of Us Weekly that Michelle O. “loved Sex and the City“. I haven’t heard her say that she shares BO’s “faith”, but her choice of which movie to publicly praise says a lot about her spiritual condition.

jgapinoy on June 23, 2008 at 11:54 PM

I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

I give AP credit for alluding to this in his commentary, but I’ll make it more clear. Abortion is the killing of a baby. It isn’t just God that says you shouldn’t kill babies, it is our laws that say murder is a capital offense.

If you believe that murder is OK, then you can justify abortion. Absent that, I don’t need any religion to show what principle abortion violates.

As AP says, he KNOWS the issue but chooses to claim that the only way you can be pro-life is because you believe it is in the Bible.

As for the Abraham issue, isn’t it convenient that he brings up the primary point of contention between Muslims and Christians/Jews to make his point here. Christians believe the Bible where it claims Isaac was going to be sacrificed. . . Muslims believe it was the servant’s child Ismael that Abraham was going to kill for God.

Obama is really a hack. The sad thing is he’s going to be the next president.

ThackerAgency on June 23, 2008 at 11:55 PM

That’s not what he’s trying to say. What he’s trying to say is that it’d be unfair and unconstitutional to make policy based on the ipse dixits of some religion’s God. You’re fully entitled to fight for what you believe, but if you’re going to turn it into law, you need a better justification as a legal matter than “Because God says so.”

First of all, I have to say the Obama speech seems to be very well written. And, he makes some valid points.

But.

His point, and the one that is highlighted here, in my opinion limits what you can propose and why. Religious motivations were a part of the context of the founding of our country. Why is freedom of religion highlighted in the Constitution? Because so many immigrants came to this country fleeing persecution. Their religion informed what they thought was important, what they fought for politically and physically, and contributed to the founding of our republic.

No one sect was allowed dominance. But, I haven’t read anything about the founders saying “you can’t propose that policy, because it is based on your religious views.” They discussed it, argued, compromised based on the pluralism represented in the country, and developed sound policy alongside (not in the absence of) religious principles.

At least, that’s my take.

cs89 on June 23, 2008 at 11:57 PM

Way to Go Dobson. I am a BIG FAN Of DOBSON!!!

Christian should not be fooled by voting for BO.

BroncosRock on June 23, 2008 at 11:58 PM

A saline abortion survivor speaks. This is old, but certainly relevant. The abortion advocates quoted in the story remind people that measures are in place to prevent “such things” from happening often… meaning preventing people like Gianna from being alive.

One such preventive measure means making doctors and nurses shove babies in closets to die alone. Senator Obama, as a committed Christian, thinks these measures should be sacrosanct and above challenge.

I don’t care at all about flag pins, fist bumps, or arugula, but I’ll pile on this issue all day long. Especially when he worms out of it with weaselly essays like the one in AP’s post above and understanding head nods to the doe-eyed Doug “the stooge” Kmiec.

joewm315 on June 24, 2008 at 12:00 AM

AP, if Dobson expressing his political views is his “usual craving for attention”, then is that why you express your views?

jgapinoy on June 24, 2008 at 12:01 AM

AP, I think Dobson’s daily audience is much bigger than yours, isn’t it? So why is his statement a “usual craving for attention”, but yours isn’t?

jgapinoy on June 24, 2008 at 12:04 AM

It seems that AP thinks that his opinions are somehow more valid because he is an atheist. Why is it a Christian must meet some phony litmus test when they advocate a certain policy or take a position? We all base our beliefs on many things, some may find our basis valid and some may not, regardless of the origin of our views.

Allah seems to think that to advocate a certain public policy we must do so on his terms, meaning from the perspective of a non-believer. However, he doesn’t seem to be required to explain his views, the basis of which may prove to be totally asinine for all we know. I am getting a little tired of the atheist minority trying to dictate to the religious majority. Clearly this nation has a rich heritage of religion and many of our founding principles were based on those beliefs.

I personally don’t care if atheists want to dispute that or not but I also don’t tell them what to think or how to express their views. If only they would make the same allowances to religious people. I must say that the air of superiority that some atheists exude is tiresome and irritating.

echosyst on June 24, 2008 at 12:08 AM

I suppose Jefferson’s “separation of Church and State” quote, which has already been stretched & distorted to mean something much different than what he meant, is being stretched even more:
If you go to church, you can’t voice a political opinion.

jgapinoy on June 24, 2008 at 12:08 AM

Mr. Obama is not a Christian, let alone a God-fearing one. It is possible he believes he is through some warped-viewpoint, but that would mean he has just bought into some deception feed to him by the likes of the J Wrights of the world. One thing is certain, he is a deceiver in his own right (and he knows this).

Obama, like many others in this world, uses other people’s ignorance of the Christian faith against them. He spouts off a verse or section of the Bible, uses it in a context favorable to his viewpoint, and then champions his viewpoint with the view of “God said this is ok” or “not ok” pending the stance. The ignorant of the Christian faith bob their heads up and down and believe the crap handed to them. People can go to church their whole lives and not have a clue about the Christian faith because the do not bother to study the Bible themselves. But these same people hear a Bible verse and immediately think the person who said it must be a ‘godly’ man. Same effect when it comes to a politician claiming their stance is covered by the Constitution when it is not (freedom of speech for me but not for thee, etc).

The Founding Fathers of this nation were very specific in the fact that the United States was founded on Christian principles and values. The Constitution was written with these principles in mind. Our early leaders were very specific on this matter. They were also very specific as to what would happen to this country and democracy if the people (and therefore government) strayed from these Christian values and principles. That was over 200 years ago and yet they have predicted the future.

SwampRat on June 24, 2008 at 12:08 AM

Obama and, frankly, you also, Allah, make one critical error in your reasoning. Your world view is based upon secularism, and you assume that all should have to live under that world view. Every religion and world view tries to answer these four questions: 1) origins, 2) morality, 3) purpose, and 4) afterlife. Each of these four things builds upon the previous. For example, if we’re from secular origins, then yes, you are right, who am I to enforce my personal beliefs upon you or anyone else? But, if there is a God who did create us, as a Christian or any theist believes, then we should follow the morality set for us by that God.
Now, yes, as a Christian, I know the world in which I live. Christ said, “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves.” As a result, I take to heart what he said next: “so be as shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves.” For this reason, Christians should be like Paul in that when speaking to a Greek, we should speak and argue as a Greek. When speaking to a Jew, we should speak and argue as a Jew.
In a somewhat related question, I ask when was the last time that God’s commands were put to a vote and God won? If one is a Christian, that is the question one must ask when talking about public policy. This was one of the learning points throughout the Old Testament. I hope we learn it someday.

Send_Me on June 24, 2008 at 12:11 AM

I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

Actually, no you don’t. Everyone gets a vote. If something get’s more than 50%, it passes. End of debate. That’s how democracy works.

pedestrian on June 24, 2008 at 12:13 AM

the crazy thing is its Planned Parenthood and their founder Margaret Sanger who are the racist killers, targeting black babies. http://www.blackgenocide.org/

interesting Rev. Wright doesn’t mention any of that when talking about the Govt. trying to exterminate the black race with HIV or Crack cocaine…..when in reality it was the Eugenics movement and the “progressives” in this country who did this very thing and whose clinics target black communities.

oh, Obama is not a Christian. He is a Humanist like AP, a Universalist as AP mentioned. fortunately for civilization they all borrow bits and pieces of their worldview from the biblical base or all hell would break loose.

jp on June 24, 2008 at 12:16 AM

here is Amanda Carpenter’s HE article on Obama and Abortion….to the Left of NARAL

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=18647

jp on June 24, 2008 at 12:18 AM

The example he gives to make his point is Abraham preparing to kill Isaac on God’s command

Has he read Kierkegaard? I heard he’s all about the Nietzsche.

Election 2008: Knights of Faith vs Ubermensches

ninjapirate on June 24, 2008 at 12:18 AM

I say sweet broadside,all nine guns,but
theres nothing wrong with a bit of air
support as well!

However,this is going to be another grand
distraction from the left,and a few more
Christian bashing specials from CNN!!

canopfor on June 24, 2008 at 12:22 AM

Now, yes, as a Christian, I know the world in which I live. Christ said, “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves.” As a result, I take to heart what he said next: “so be as shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves.” For this reason, Christians should be like Paul in that when speaking to a Greek, we should speak and argue as a Greek. When speaking to a Jew, we should speak and argue as a Jew.

when speaking to secular libertarians, you should speak on abortion as a Civil Liberty and Property Rights issue(their grounds). Science proves life starts at conception, this life has property rights and a right to life, etc. vs. where they confuse it, the woman having property rights over her body and a ‘right to choose’, except in reality she’s choosing to murder and take away another’s Property Rights and life….etc….

just my opinion.

Sam Adams was actually very good at this, he was of course aa very very devout Christian(and brewmaster) but he also knew how to speak in public in a more secular way

jp on June 24, 2008 at 12:23 AM

Actually, no you don’t. Everyone gets a vote. If something get’s more than 50%, it passes. End of debate. That’s how democracy works.

pedestrian on June 24, 2008 at 12:13 AM

In a democracy with a constitution individuals are protected from government trampling on essential liberties. In those cases 51% isn’t enough.

dedalus on June 24, 2008 at 12:23 AM

just the usual craving for attention

AP, we’re waiting. Where is the evidence for this awful, habitual craving of Dobson’s that you habitually mention? We only see a man giving political opinions, but you see right into his evil heart, don’t you? Tell us about your evidence, AP.

jgapinoy on June 24, 2008 at 12:24 AM

He’d probably argue that rules against murder are common among many religions and most civilizations in history. Though slaves and wives probably haven’t always been fully protected by law from being killed.

dedalus on June 23, 2008 at 11:50 PM

Abortion is murder. Non-Christians want to debate the matter or make fun of Christians about it, but it is objectively very clear. This idea that Obama wasn’t man enough to stand up against leaving an infant to die on a shelf, speaks volumes.

bnelson44 on June 24, 2008 at 12:27 AM

I’m just confused … we as a country are far more concerned about the polar bears than we are about a human baby in it’s mother’s womb. Is that thinking upside down or is it just me? I don’t know what more to say.

ORrighty on June 24, 2008 at 12:30 AM

The best argument to aim at the choice crowd is a secular one: Whether you want to call it tissue, a tadpole or a human, the result is that we have at least 100 million fewer Americans today than we would have had if Roe had not sanctified abortion. We’re in the third generation of culling our own herd, and I think we need to start framing it that way.

The free love, I-me-mine, rights-without-responsibilities baby boomers are leaving the taxpaying-human-being-Americans pipeline dry for the generations that follow. Theirs will likely be the last to enjoy “retirement,” which is a made-up contemporary idea anyway. Their retirements were actuarially unsound long before they cheered judicial activism that assured the impending actuarial catastrophe.

If American-humans were mere animals, they’d be labeled by the left as an endangered species. Hell, if liberals considered human life a part of the earth’s “ecology” they would be setting up breeding programs and encouraging heterosexual marriage as a way to save the subspecies!

And, obviously, they’d be banning abortion.

But they don’t consider humans to be a part of the earth’s ecology. They consider humans that they don’t know to be malignant, except, of course, those that are protected and favored as minorities, Therefore, we must be free to choose to kill babies.

Makes perfect sense…if you’re a lunatic.

kdaddy on June 24, 2008 at 12:32 AM

I’m just confused … we as a country are far more concerned about the polar bears than we are about a human baby in it’s mother’s womb. Is that thinking upside down or is it just me? I don’t know what more to say.

ORrighty on June 24, 2008 at 12:30 AM

We’ve let it get this way by allowing our schools to teach this rubbish.

bnelson44 on June 24, 2008 at 12:33 AM

Government IS god to BarryO/The Left. Abortion is their sacrament. Environmentalism is their doctrine.

Worship at your own peril.

SouthernGent on June 24, 2008 at 12:39 AM

The example he gives to make his point is Abraham preparing to kill Isaac on God’s command, as though the moral argument against abortion were no more coherent or “universal” than the voice in some zealot’s head.

AP, if you are willing to publicly call Abraham, a central figure in the Bible, a “zealot”, I shudder to think what you and your atheists friends say about “those Bible thumping conservatives” in private.

RMR on June 24, 2008 at 12:40 AM

We’ve let it get this way by allowing our schools to teach this rubbish.

bnelson44 on June 24, 2008 at 12:33 AM

Here Here!

ORrighty on June 24, 2008 at 12:42 AM

No need to beat up on AP here. I mostly agree with him on the attention whore Dobson.

But the problem is that Christians are seen as somehow ‘bad’. I don’t know why, maybe it’s the packaging. But people need to see that the Christian view of lifestyle is for your own good. Don’t have sex before marriage. That leaves out the possibility of STD’s, unwanted pregnancies. . . it leads to the establishment of the nucleus of the family.

ALL OF THAT IS GOOD. If you follow that, you will have a fulfilling life. You don’t need to chastise those who don’t follow it. Just understand that if you do follow it and encourage others to, you will have a better society.

Don’t murder, steal, be jealous. Be kind, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Love your neighbor. Don’t judge. Give to charity. Nothing is wrong with any of these Christian principles. . . yet in our society we are led to believe that all Christians are ‘Timothy McVeighs’ or ‘Eric Rudolph’s', or just as bad as jihadists.

ThackerAgency on June 24, 2008 at 12:42 AM

Why this, why now?

I’ll take just the usual craving for attention for the win.

AprilOrit on June 24, 2008 at 12:43 AM

Abortion is murder. Non-Christians want to debate the matter or make fun of Christians about it, but it is objectively very clear. This idea that Obama wasn’t man enough to stand up against leaving an infant to die on a shelf, speaks volumes.

bnelson44 on June 24, 2008 at 12:27 AM

There are also a lot of people who sincerely wonder when, during the reproductive process there is a person deserving of rights under the law. I agree with your point on Obama.

dedalus on June 24, 2008 at 12:43 AM

AP, if Dobson expressing his political views is his “usual craving for attention”, then is that why you express your views?

jgapinoy on June 24, 2008 at 12:01 AM

AP views make much more sense. Dobson not so much.

AprilOrit on June 24, 2008 at 12:45 AM

No need to beat up on AP here. I mostly agree with him on the attention whore Dobson.

Sorry. Dobson doesn’t need attention and I don’t think he wants it. I’m glad that Christians have a voice with a National audience who is willing to stand up and stand against the words of people like BHO and his Biblical stupidity.

ORrighty on June 24, 2008 at 12:55 AM

Liberals never hesitate to pervert religion in order to advance their own causes.

The Bible calls their kind “Pharisees” in several passages explaining this particular kind of blasphemy. The tip-off then and now was that everything is all about them.

landlines on June 24, 2008 at 12:58 AM

Dig my comment out of whatever queue it’s stuck in please.

baldilocks on June 24, 2008 at 1:08 AM

In a democracy with a constitution individuals are protected from government trampling on essential liberties. In those cases 51% isn’t enough.

dedalus on June 24, 2008 at 12:23 AM

Oh, excuse me. 5 out of 9, or 55%.

pedestrian on June 24, 2008 at 1:12 AM

It involves the compromise, the art of what’s possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It’s the art of the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God’s edicts, regardless of the consequences. To base one’s life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime, but to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing.

So basically BHO just said he has no morals and everything and anything is up for grabs when bills are being made. He will do what is possible REGARDLESS of his views.

the 100% politician. No morals, no guiding principles, no allies are safe and no enemies are in danger. Everything is possible and everything is on the table. Anyone or anything that gets in the way will be thrown under the bus.

God help us.

unseen on June 24, 2008 at 1:15 AM

Dig my comment out of whatever queue it’s stuck in please.

baldilocks on June 24, 2008 at 1:08 AM

I’ve noticed the system doesn’t like some links

bnelson44 on June 24, 2008 at 1:17 AM

Dobson: Obama is “dragging biblical understanding through the gutter”

On interpretation, and explanation of the Bible, I’ll go with Dobson, before a student of Black Liberation Theology, like Hussein Obama!

byteshredder on June 24, 2008 at 1:21 AM

Why this, why now?

I’ll take just the usual craving for attention for the win.

AprilOrit on June 24, 2008 at 12:43 AM

Judge not, that ye be not judged….

No, wait, that only applies to Christians. You atheists continue to feel free to judge everything any Christian does based on what you happen to know he really wants.

theregoestheneighborhood on June 24, 2008 at 1:24 AM

Okay I’ll say it again minus the CNN link. I think that every public Christian should speak out against the heresy and racism that is Black Liberation Theology. ‘Cause when Obama tries to bring about his “Kingdom here on Earth,” Dobson’s so-called attention-whoring will be the least of our worries.

baldilocks on June 24, 2008 at 1:28 AM

Sorry. Dobson doesn’t need attention and I don’t think he wants it. I’m glad that Christians have a voice with a National audience who is willing to stand up and stand against the words of people like BHO and his Biblical stupidity.

Pope Dobson is an power hungry attention whore. He stands no chance with the “National audience” when put up against the Blessed -B-m-(pbuh).

ninjapirate on June 24, 2008 at 1:29 AM

baldilocks on June 24, 2008 at 1:28 AM

Yep, CNN links are one kind the system doesn’t link. So are some blogspot links.

bnelson44 on June 24, 2008 at 1:30 AM

I think that every public Christian should speak out against the heresy and racism that is Black Liberation Theology. ‘Cause when Obama tries to bring about his “Kingdom here on Earth,” Dobson’s so-called attention-whoring will be the least of our worries.

baldilocks on June 24, 2008 at 1:28 AM

Like Muslims speaking out against Islamists. Black Christians have to speak out against BLT. It doesn’t do any good for us white Catholics to speak out against it. No one will listen since we don’t have any clout in that community. Anyway, we have enough of our own problems with so called Catholic liberation theology.

bnelson44 on June 24, 2008 at 1:32 AM

Like Muslims speaking out against Islamists. Black Christians have to speak out against BLT.

I disagree that the two situations are the same. Muslims don’t have to be Muslim, but black people have to be black. All Christians are told to speak boldly about Christ, not just certain ones. And you can’t say whether it will do any good or not if you don’t do it. Where’s your faith?

baldilocks on June 24, 2008 at 1:40 AM

I’m just confused … we as a country are far more concerned about the polar bears than we are about a human baby in it’s mother’s womb. Is that thinking upside down or is it just me? I don’t know what more to say.

ORrighty on June 24, 2008 at 12:30 AM

No, don’t be confused. You’re absolutely right on this!

Vntnrse on June 24, 2008 at 1:44 AM

but black people have to be black. All Christians are told to speak boldly about Christ, not just certain ones. And you can’t say whether it will do any good or not if you don’t do it. Where’s your faith?

baldilocks on June 24, 2008 at 1:40 AM

White Catholics can speak out boldly about Christ all we want. My point is, and I might be wrong, that I don’t think too many blacks who are into or tempted by BLT will listen to us. After all, one of the main tenants of BLT is that the white church is for white people and there is a distinctly separate message for black people. In other words they are told in BLT churches not to listen to any white people.

bnelson44 on June 24, 2008 at 1:49 AM

ninjapirate on June 24, 2008 at 1:29 AM

Do you think that Dobson calls for a press conference on these things? No Way! The media asks him for his opinions, and far more often than he responds to them.

ORrighty on June 24, 2008 at 1:53 AM

bnelson44 on June 24, 2008 at 1:49 AM

You’re probably right about that particular angle, but don’t let that stop you from hammering home the point that Senator Obama supports infanticide, something even NARAL recoiled from, every time your fellow churchgoers mention that they might support him. Don’t let them be fooled by airy rhetoric and dodgy “gee, everybody makes really good points” speeches and essays like the one quoted above.

They can’t be allowed to claim ignorance, or weave a Gordian Knot of feelings-oriented statements like that laughable lapdog Doug Kmiec. If they are going to support Senator Obama, then they should have to own that issue in doing so.

joewm315 on June 24, 2008 at 1:58 AM

Judge not, that ye be not judged….

theregoestheneighborhood on June 24, 2008 at 1:24 AM

Judge, that ye be not judged to have no judgment….

MB4 on June 24, 2008 at 2:02 AM

Oh come on, AP . . . You’ve made it annoyingly clear that you don’t like Dobson . . . it seems that it’s a scab you can’t (or won’t) stop picking at.
.
It truly does seem that your fundamental atheism (!) will not allow you to recognize that Dobson has – for some 30+ yearsconsistently walked the talk. His is a real, 24/7 faith – a God driven faith, not a poll driven faith. It’d be waaaaaaaaaaay easier and prob’ly a lot more financially rewarding if he’d just sit back and be quiet — but a Believer’s faith has to affect his actions and his actions have to reflect his Savior (otherwise he’s just a make-believer!)
.
Unlike Obamessiah’s *spit* “faith”, Dobson’s is the real deal, and will have eternal consequences. Your snarkiness is but a vapor.
.
The message that should come out of all this is:
Obambi’s faith seems to come from his speech writers.
Dobson’s faith is in GOD, not polls and focus groups.

least1 on June 24, 2008 at 2:42 AM

I disagree. It is perfectly acceptable to argue that we should do something “because God says so”.

Just don’t expect that to persuade everybody to agree with you.

If you do manage to convince people to agree with that argument that’s fine- it’s just not very likely, except perhaps about the commandment: “Thou shall not kill”- which of course has some other reasons to back it up.

I do think we should avoid labeling obedience to God an illegitimate motivation for supporting certain legislation. Rather we should recognize that such an argument is unlikely to persuade many people, and should instead focus on universal reasons while God’s will makes sense even if you don’t believe in God.

Maybe that’s splitting hairs, but I think it’s an important distinction.

To be a good Christian you have to do what God says, and I have no sympathy for a Christian trying to claim that he is free from that restriction in political matters.

Sackett on June 24, 2008 at 2:43 AM

“I am convinced Sen. McCain is not a conservative, and in fact, has gone out of his way to stick his thumb in the eyes of those who are … I cannot, and will not, vote for Sen. John McCain, as a matter of conscience.”

–James Dobson

I think that statement hurts McCain far more than any Dobson has made against Obama. Obama can win without the fringe religos…McCain can’t.

alphie on June 24, 2008 at 2:56 AM

Actually, no you don’t. Everyone gets a vote. If something get’s more than 50%, it passes. End of debate. That’s how democracy works.

pedestrian on June 24, 2008 at 12:13 AM

But that’s NOT how the US works: The United States is a Democratic Republic…not a pure democracy. The founders deliberately gave us a bicameral legislature to keep “51% Mob Rule” from trampling on the rights of minorities and to keep the large, populous states from running everything and imposing their will on the smaller, less populous states. It’s messy, but it works!!!

landlines on June 24, 2008 at 3:16 AM

Government IS god to BarryO/The Left. Abortion is their sacrament. Environmentalism is their doctrine.

Worship at your own peril.

SouthernGent on June 24, 2008 at 12:39 AM

Exactly right!! And it’s nothing new: “Environmentalism” is just “Paganism” renamed in an attempt to hide its true nature. Pagan philosophy is that “nature” should be worshiped and man is inferior to “nature.” Abortion underscores this philosophy, as does the promotion of eugenics by the left. In ancient Rome and Greece, many Pagan temples had resident prostitutes: another way of devaluing human life.

When BHO talks, always check to see whose lips are moving…

landlines on June 24, 2008 at 3:24 AM

Obama has completely and utterly bastardised what GOD is teaching us when he instructed Abraham to set about to sacrafice Issac to HIM. GOD was testing Abraham’s OBEDIENCE to HIM and therein is the lesson. Abraham didn’t hesitate to set up the altar, bind Issac and take the knife into his hand and rear back in preparation of striking Issac in the heart. GOD stoppped Abraham as HE was satisfied that Abraham was about to completely and totally fulfill the commandment from GOD to sacrafice Issac thereby demonstrating complete and unwaivering OBEDIENCE to GOD and cementing Abraham’s place in GOD’s plan. Abraham proved his obedience to GOD and was richly rewarded for his obedience. Obama has mutilated the meaning of that portion of scripture and has NO GRASP whatsoever on the Old or New Testament’s teachings.

And I am not at all surprised.

And Obama’s belief that thare are several “ways” or paths to GOD is exactly contrary to what Jesus himself said. “I am the way the truth and the light. NO ONE cometh unto the Father but BY ME.”

In short, Obama’s a fraud on even a spiritual level over and above his being a fraud of a leader.

44Magnum on June 24, 2008 at 3:46 AM

That’s not what he’s trying to say.

Yes it is.

Sir Andrew on June 24, 2008 at 3:49 AM

In short, Obama wants to be enthrone his values above Christian values.
theregoestheneighborhood on June 23, 2008 at 11:48 PM

It’s probably more accurate to say he wants to enthrone his values as Christian values.

Unfortunately, too many Christians have bought into the idea that their benevolence must be enacted through the power of government, which in practice translates into using coercive taxation for redistribution of wealth.

Bush, no matter how well-intentioned, pushed the idea along with his “Faith-Based Initiative,” and Obama is ideally suited to carry the concept to its Marxist extreme. He’s fully versed in the language of religion (as Kmiec knows), having used the socially radicalized Chicago churches to gain a foothold in the political arena. (See Stanley Kurtz)

Dobson may be an ass at times, but he has good cause to be alarmed. Obama, like Wormtongue, can talk the talk.

Nichevo on June 24, 2008 at 6:07 AM

Way to Go Dobson. I am a BIG FAN Of DOBSON!!!

Christian should not be fooled by voting for BO.

BroncosRock on June 23, 2008 at 11:58 PM

I once was a fan of Dobson myself. Not anymore. The more I read scripture the more I saw how classical psychoanalysis is anti-Christian.

Christians but no longer psychologists.

shick on June 24, 2008 at 6:55 AM

Maybe Allah should refrain from posting on subjects he is so intolerant towards, and ignorant of.

MarkTheGreat on June 24, 2008 at 7:03 AM

Hell, even she might have let at least the white babies live if they popped out with functioning brains. That would mark them as superior evolutionary specimens, right?

joewm315 on June 23, 2008 at 11:38 PM

If going to play the “pro-life” game of attacking Margaret Sanger out of any relevant context, we should remember that important little detail about her life. While keeping her views on human reproduction and abortion, she went from being a socialist to being a Republican and supported Ike for President. In “pro-life” logic land, this has the obvious implication that Republicans are genocidal racists.

thuja on June 24, 2008 at 7:11 AM

As for the Abraham issue, isn’t it convenient that he brings up the primary point of contention between Muslims and Christians/Jews to make his point here. Christians believe the Bible where it claims Isaac was going to be sacrificed. . . Muslims believe it was the servant’s child Ismael that Abraham was going to kill for God.

Obama is really a hack. The sad thing is he’s going to be the next president.

ThackerAgency on June 23, 2008 at 11:55 PM

Didn’t read all the comments yet, but my take was that Obama was clearly putting Jews and Christians on notice that the primacy of the Judeo-Christian ethic in our social life was no longer going to be acceptable.

Obama’s comment about consuming shellfish is offensive to Jews who observe kosher dietary laws. As you said, his comments about Abraham and Issac are controversial insofar as the Muslims distorted the bible in their Koran to substitute Ishamael for Isaac. And it’s offensive to those with strong Christian beliefs who are in the forefront of the anti-abortion struggle.

This was a shot across the bow to the Judeo-Christian religous community in America, and to the ethos on which our country was founded. Thank you Dr.Dobson for responding, even if AP’s religious beliefs allow him to find room for reason in Obama’s comments.

Finally, the live birth abortions Obama supports make me scream to the heavens. How about a separate thread on that AP?

JiangxiDad on June 24, 2008 at 7:41 AM

Once again Allapundit shows his ignorance of the Scriptures (along with Hussein). Yet he continues to display his foolishness to the blogosphere, removing all doubt about his atheist leanings. Keep up the fair work AP.

Agreed. AP get a real life.

wepeople on June 24, 2008 at 7:41 AM

Obama doesn’t care about the babies. He doesn’t care about the Christians. He doesn’t care.
THe man simply wants to get elected.
I think it really is that simple.

bridgetown on June 24, 2008 at 8:06 AM

…Everyone gets a vote. If something get’s more than 50%, it passes. End of debate. That’s how democracy works.

pedestrian on June 24, 2008 at 12:13 AM

Wasn’t their recently someone who won the majority vote, but did not get selected?
Hasn’t their been propositions passed by more then 50% yet not made law?
Better retake Politics 101…

right2bright on June 24, 2008 at 8:06 AM

Lightworker, hah!

Read it and laugh:
http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/2008/06/23/

BobH on June 24, 2008 at 8:06 AM

Obama is trying to frame religious people who disagree with him as zealots. It’s as simple as that.

It’s an old trick.

Meryl Yourish on June 24, 2008 at 8:08 AM

It appears an unusual number of “geezers” have allowed AP to bundle their “undies” with respect to this topic.

A word of caution here AP. Giving political “wedgies” to olde farts can result in a number of inordinate strokes and heart attacks.

Don’t yah just luv it…! :)

J_Gocht on June 24, 2008 at 8:08 AM

thuja on June 24, 2008 at 7:11 AM

Pro-life issues trump any party loyalties I may have, so that fact means nothing to me.
Your breakdown of my logic is nonsensical and groundless as well. I never suggested that anyone but Margaret Sanger was a genocidal racist.

joewm315 on June 24, 2008 at 8:11 AM

Didn’t read all the comments yet, but my take was that Obama was clearly putting Jews and Christians on notice that the primacy of the Judeo-Christian ethic in our social life was no longer going to be acceptable.JiangxiDad on June 24, 2008 at 7:41 AM

Yep. and most of the young folk on this blog appear to have no idea of the significance of this change. Perhaps they are blinded by hope.

Angry Dumbo on June 24, 2008 at 8:22 AM

My point is, and I might be wrong, that I don’t think too many blacks who are into or tempted by BLT will listen to us. After all, one of the main tenants of BLT is that the white church is for white people and there is a distinctly separate message for black people. In other words they are told in BLT churches not to listen to any white people.

bnelson44 on June 24, 2008 at 1:49 AM

One of the other tenets is that blacks like myself are tools–I’ve read one of BLT founder Cone’s handbooks and am going to pick up one of the other ones from the library today–so if you’re thinking that my skin color would confer some sort of authenticity in their eyes you’re mistaken. (I believe in reconnoitering the enemy.)

My point is that God opens up hearts and minds so if you’ll give it a try you never know what might happen. And if you give up, the same is true.

baldilocks on June 24, 2008 at 8:25 AM

Obama is pandering to the racist religious cult he supported for over 20 years. We are entering a period of contrived racial confrontation and social unrest and I’m afraid it is about to spiral out of control. Electing this inept radical will completely change the essence of what was once a great nation. The Republic is in serious trouble.

rplat on June 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM

The Republic is in serious trouble.

rplat on June 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM

Yes it is. God bless America, with repentence.

shick on June 24, 2008 at 8:50 AM

The example he gives to make his point is Abraham preparing to kill Isaac on God’s command, as though the moral argument against abortion were no more coherent or “universal” than the voice in some zealot’s head.

-AP

Abraham was “some zealot” with a voice in his head? Stay classy, AP, stay classy.

Akzed on June 24, 2008 at 8:55 AM

attention whore Dobson
just the usual craving for attention

1) You have offered no proof of Dobson’s allegedly evil motives
2) Dobson talks to many millions 5X a week–he needs attention?
3) Who else do you call an “attention whore” for sharing political opinions?
4) Accusers, how big is your audience? It’s smaller than Dobson’s. So when you give your opinions, are you attention whores?

jgapinoy on June 24, 2008 at 8:58 AM

Didn’t I hear on the news yesterday that Obama made a speech telling us the as Americans we do not have “inalienable” rights, but we have “birth” rights, which can and should be taken away by the government when it is deemed necessary. That is far more scarry than this religion gaffe.

TimothyJ on June 24, 2008 at 9:05 AM

I am not a big Dobson fan, but the man is genuine, I believe.

There is only One who has the answer for man and His name is Jesus (not Dobson or Hussein).

saved on June 24, 2008 at 9:09 AM

-AP

Abraham was “some zealot” with a voice in his head? Stay classy, AP, stay classy.

Akzed on June 24, 2008 at 8:55 AM

Perhaps AP interprets the bible literally.

JiangxiDad on June 24, 2008 at 9:15 AM

It is a ridiculous notion that pro-lifers have tried to change laws based on “Because God says so.” The right to life is the most basic of human rights. Believing in God or not, one would hope that all us believes in that. “the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness” is, after all, not a religious mantra.

If we don’t have the right to life, then all other rights are moot. When we take away the right to life, then we have no other rights.

This may be a religious issue to many, as the civil rights movement was, but like the civil rights movement, it is also based on the basic rights of humanity.

Rightwingsparkle on June 24, 2008 at 9:15 AM

VolMagic on June 23, 2008 at 11:28 PM

Yes it is the most disgusting thing I have ever heard about too. It relates directly with the Born Alive Infants Protection Act that Obama voted AGAINST three times. THREE TIMES, PEOPLE!

NARAL didn’t even oppose it, to give you some perspective.
_
This man must not become our president!

MechEng5by5 on June 24, 2008 at 9:19 AM

It appears an unusual number of “geezers” have allowed AP to bundle their “undies” with respect to this topic.A word of caution here AP. Giving political “wedgies” to olde farts can result in a number of inordinate strokes and heart attacks.Don’t yah just luv it…! :)J_Gocht

Looks like Gocht has had his nose in enough bundled undies to make him an expert on who are the old farts among the bloggers. Time to wipe your nose off J!

wepeople on June 24, 2008 at 9:23 AM

“That’s not what he’s trying to say. What he’s trying to say is that it’d be unfair and unconstitutional to make policy based on the ipse dixits of some religion’s God. You’re fully entitled to fight for what you believe, but if you’re going to turn it into law, you need a better justification as a legal matter than “Because God says so.” Otherwise, the only people who will understand it — not agree with it, necessarily, but understand it (i.e. who’ll find it “accessible”) — are people of your own faith.”

I understand and agree with your argument, AP. The problem I have with this is twofold. The first is that in most cases, “Because God says so” is the headline, if you will, to the full story of arguments below, most of which is below the fold. That every single member in a particular religion hasn’t memorized the arguments — and I’m thinking only of Christians as that’s the religion I’m familiar with — and recited the full text of the story every time there is an debate isn’t relevant to the debate. If this is to be the applicable modus operandi for debate, then all sides will just find the dumbest person on the opposing sides to quote exclusively and we get nowhere.

The second problem is what I can only comprehend as a feigning of ignorance. Why is it that some persuasive admonishment found in the Bible is automatically discounted as irrelevant because of it’s religious connotation, but we have no problem accepting the name dropping Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, or Kennedy or King quotes as though they have come from some other source than their God? This is especially true with respect to Lincoln and King.

What’s obnoxious about Obama’s speech, and his use of abortion as his example, is his hiding behind his religious convictions, if he really has any, as a way to not have to enforce the command “Thou shalt not kill” to protect the most innocent and helpless of our society. Seriously, what “regardless of the consequences” and “uncompromising commitments” are imposed on those who, rather than have a partial birth abortion are, by law, made to have a live birth and have the baby given up for adoption? When it comes to partial birth abortion, at the very least, I find this “woman’s womb is personal” zealotry a concept quite inaccessible to me, yet it was imposed on society by 7 people in 1973.

Dusty on June 24, 2008 at 9:28 AM

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