It’s on: Lawsuit filed to halt production of SC’s Christian vanity plates
posted at 4:52 pm on June 19, 2008 by Allahpundit
For those about to rock, I salute you.
No, seriously, cliched though it may be, legal clashes over inanities like this are always gratifying as a reminder of how successful America’s been in keeping church and state separate and settling in the most mundane way the sort of dispute that gets people’s throats slit in other countries. And needless to say, it’s always fascinating to watch great principles decided on the dumbest conceivable fact patterns.
Americans United for Separation of Church and State today filed a lawsuit in federal district court on behalf of several religious leaders and a religious organization whose First Amendment rights are violated by South Carolina’s “I Believe” license plate…
Plaintiffs in the case include four South Carolina clergy the Rev. Dr. Thomas A. Summers, Rabbi Sanford T. Marcus, the Rev. Dr. Robert M. Knight and the Rev. Dr. Neal Jones as well as the Hindu American Foundation…
“The state has clearly given preferential treatment to Christianity with this license plate,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, Americans United executive director. “I can’t think of a more flagrant violation of the First Amendment’s promise of equal treatment for all faiths. I believe these plates will not see the light of day.”
Here’s the complaint; note paragraph 36, which knocks the legislature for giving consumers a price break on the plate even though they had to do so or else they would have made the Establishment Clause difficulties worse. Exit compromise: You can keep this if the state also offers a plate featuring an image of Hitchens, drunk, above the slogan, “Abandon all hope.”
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Yay…Allah used a tip I mailed in. *Toot, Toot*
Anyways, this lawsuit is predictable at best and silly at worst. No one is forcing anyone to buy the plate, and just because a Hindu (or whatever!) is offended is no reason not to have it. The very vast majority of people in South Carolina are Christians, and that means something. It’s time for the majority to stop trying to be nice to increasingly balkanized minorities of all stripes in an effort to keep the peace. I’m not even a religious person at all, and I don’t have a problem with this. I understand this great country I live in is a Christian nation. I say grow the F*** up and get over yourselves or at least buy your own vanity plate in South Carolina which you are allowed to do. Case dismissed.
SouthernGent on June 19, 2008 at 6:17 PM
Hindu American Foundation is a national non-profit advocacy organization that provides a voice for over two million Hindu-Americans, including members who reside in South Carolina. Foundation objects to, and is offended by, the State’s approval and offering of the “I Believe” plate, and the production and issuance of the plate, because these activities advance a religious viewpoint to which the Foundation’s members do not subscribe; create religious discord and thereby undermine the Foundation’s efforts to promote understanding, tolerance, and pluralism; improperly place the state’s imprimatur on the Christian beliefs expressed by the plate, sending the
message to Hindus and believers of other non-Christian faiths that the they are second-class citizens; and discriminate against Hindu believers (and those of other non-Christian faiths) by affording preferential treatment to an expressly Christian viewpoint, while failing to create an analogous forum for the expression of an expressly Hindu viewpoint.
RushBaby on June 19, 2008 at 6:18 PM
Hubert Humphrey talks so fast that listening to him is like trying to read Playboy magazine with your wife turning the pages.
- Barry Goldwater
I think any man in business would be foolish to fool around with his secretary. If it’s somebody else’s secretary, fine.
- Barry Goldwater
MB4 on June 19, 2008 at 6:18 PM
Yep- because everyone knows that having a personalized Christian license plate is right up there with baptism and communion in terms of Christian religious practices.
Hollowpoint on June 19, 2008 at 6:19 PM
It was an exaggeration for rhetorical purpose that anyone who isn’t a dimwith is able to see as such. It doesn’t change the fact that there is a disturbing amount of paranoia and even outright hatred of muslims on hot air.
And there are no Christian/Jewish/atheist murderers in America. Gotcha. Since “all it takes is one” I take it you’re now living as a hermit in the Nevada desert.
Darth Executor on June 19, 2008 at 6:21 PM
Me, I’m in favor of an Elder Gods plate….but I don’t suppose that there would be enough interest to warrant its manufacture.
Wouldn’t any sort of custom plate qualify as “favoritism toward the popular”, if only plates that would be expected to have some minimum level of demand get made?
cthulhu on June 19, 2008 at 6:22 PM
What should be next is a manic depressive schizophrenic paranoid like you being strapped down on my table receiving the first of about 200 electroshock treatments.
Sigy on June 19, 2008 at 6:23 PM
Precisely. And let’s not forget about the Nonplatists, who are discriminated against by being forced to carry the most abominable object known as a plate, an everlasting symbol of shame on their car every day.
Darth Executor on June 19, 2008 at 6:24 PM
My statement was based on the assumption that the plates are exclusive to only one religion.
FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 6:25 PM
And what if someday the vast majority of people in some American town or city or maybe even state are muslim? Then what?
MB4 on June 19, 2008 at 6:29 PM
I would also love to see that return, but not to the picking and choosing of lefties, nor righties.
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 6:29 PM
Then they can petition for a license plate. Is it that hard?
Sure, which is why this topic needs to be discussed with integrity.
Spirit of 1776 on June 19, 2008 at 6:32 PM
This is going to be interesting to watch. This is one of those issues where I understand each side’s points and don’t really have an set in stone opinion one way or the other. That doesn’t happen often with me. We’ll see what happens.
malan89 on June 19, 2008 at 6:33 PM
Let them make Muslim plates then!
jgapinoy on June 19, 2008 at 6:34 PM
There you go again.
- Ronald Reagan
The only “gotcha” you got is another one of your strawmen.
On the next open registration you should just change your name to Strawman.
Make that change your name to StrawmanTheClueless.
MB4 on June 19, 2008 at 6:35 PM
Well, neither of our analogies were very good. I was basically trying to point out that the house analogy would be more akin to the government making you remove expressions of your faith from the interior or exterior of your car, verses in this case we’re talking about license plates which are, basically, state property.
FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 6:36 PM
No matter how much lipstick one puts on it, I think that is clearly the general idea.
MB4 on June 19, 2008 at 6:37 PM
Or, a glowing image of the Messiah, above the slogan “Change we can believe in“.
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 6:37 PM
And how about Muslim law too? Is that also good to go with you?
MB4 on June 19, 2008 at 6:39 PM
In Tennessee if you can get something like 300 people to order a vanity tag the state will make them. If it drops below a certain number it will be discontinued. Unless it is something clearly offensive the plates will be produced. The simple solution for S.C. would be to offer a plate that reads “I don’t believe”.
JonRoss on June 19, 2008 at 6:39 PM
Slogan “Sharia we can live with“
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 6:40 PM
You think I’m kidding?
We are just a couple steps away.
Right now, they are bypassing the will of the people and forcing the homosexual agenda through gay marriage..
The next thing that will happen is; they will make it a hate crime to say anything “disparaging” about homosexuality.
Such as “homosexuality is a sin”.
Here is an example of what is happening in Canada as a result of legalizing gay marriage
http://www.markmallett.com/blog/?p=714
Stephen Boisson is being denied his free speech..he was ordered by a canadian activist judge to never say that homosexuality is a sin again EVER IN HIS LIFE!
He is never again allowed to preach that, in his pulpit or anywhere else,..even in his private emails.
The next step is to outlaw Christianity completely and put the Christians in concentration camps for their eventual beheading.
I hope you atheists realize what side you are on and the monstrous nature of atheism.
SaintOlaf on June 19, 2008 at 6:41 PM
This could actually be a very clever argument to the judge/jury.
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 6:42 PM
Sure.
Just don’t try to bring it into the US.
Spirit of 1776 on June 19, 2008 at 6:44 PM
No, I think you’re nuts.
FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM
“Honor killings for Mohammad”
“Mohammad says behead all gays”
MB4 on June 19, 2008 at 6:48 PM
I follow the Prophet
You better too
MB4 on June 19, 2008 at 6:49 PM
Colloquially put Watson, put essentially correct.
Holmes on June 19, 2008 at 6:51 PM
What do atheists and muslims have in common?
SaintOlaf on June 19, 2008 at 6:53 PM
I rarely develop a treatment plan that is in error, but did I ever do so this time. I said that you should have 200 electroshock treatments for your manic depressive schizophrenic paranoid. Make it 2,000 to start. Then we will reevaluate from there.
Sigy on June 19, 2008 at 6:56 PM
They both would love nothing more than to round up and behead all Christians.
You shouldn’t insult your Christian persecuting allies MB4.
SaintOlaf on June 19, 2008 at 6:57 PM
What do SaintOlaf and The Devil have in common?
MB4 on June 19, 2008 at 6:58 PM
Yes, absolutely — through the DMV, which has explicit guidelines including: plates may display only the name of the sponsoring organization and its official logo; no other emblems, symbols, or iconography are permitted, and
expressive words and/or phrases, such as “I Believe,” are prohibited. Again, these are the DMV guidelines that everyone else has to use.
In this instance, the legislature initiated the plate design, unanimously approved it, the Lt. Gov. even offered to pay $4,000 of his own money, to be reimbursed by the state, so that the plate can be produced without delay.
RushBaby on June 19, 2008 at 6:59 PM
What, that you’ve condemned them all, including many Christians that don’t meet your approval, to an eternity in the lake of fire?
FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 6:59 PM
They’re both flying over your house right now in a black helocopter getting ready to abduct you and implant a mind-control chip in your brain, which will be controlled remotely via satellite? Tip: Tinfoil hats block the signal.
Hollowpoint on June 19, 2008 at 7:00 PM
Make that 20,000 electroshock treatments and Senator McCain had best call for building even more electricity generating nuclear power plants. Looks like we are really going to need them.
Sigy on June 19, 2008 at 7:01 PM
Sigy, you make me ashamed to have scandinavian blood.
It’s shameful, the kind of Christian persecuting, rabid atheists your country produces now.
SaintOlaf on June 19, 2008 at 7:02 PM
heh, just a thought, can we put Muhammed Cartoon with a bomb head on there?
And put “1st Amendment” as the text.
kirkill on June 19, 2008 at 7:03 PM
The article I read (I couldn’t find any actual state law to read) said that the DMV or the state legislature could initiate a new plate design.
I don’t know if this is the only instance where the legislature has created a design, but, the article made it sound like both avenues for creating new plates were pre-established. It didn’t seem like there was anything out of the ordinary in this instance with the legislature designing the plate (other than the fact that it had religious symbolism which immediately made it controversial).
JadeNYU on June 19, 2008 at 7:05 PM
Make that 200,000 electroshock treatments and somebody had better figure out a way to harrness all the power of the sun or we will run out of electricity before we cure you.
Sigy on June 19, 2008 at 7:05 PM
The link didn’t load for me so that’s the first I’ve heard the details. It sounds like these plates are a special privilege, then, and exceed the rules and regulations applied to others.
That’s the right way to do it. What galls me is that the SC legislature probably did it this way intentionally hoping that through litigation their agenda might set a precedent. At least that’s my suspicion when I hear about these sorts of issues.
FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 7:06 PM
Lake of fire!
FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 7:08 PM
Oooooo yeah! Cancel my Rastafarian license plate and sign me up for one of those instead!
FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 7:09 PM
Found the vanity plate creation requirements(oddly enough on the DMV site…not sure why I didn’t look there first).
If I’m reading this right, it looks like having the legislature approve the new plate is standard process and wasn’t a special thing done for the “I believe” plate.
JadeNYU on June 19, 2008 at 7:12 PM
Even if that be the case, the legislature, with the power vested in it, changed the “explicit guidelines”. Still no foul.
Spirit of 1776 on June 19, 2008 at 7:16 PM
Right. I was answering Spirit’s question of is this open for others to pursue. Obviously it is. But the plaintiffs cite the reasons I quoted in their complaint as part of their case.
RushBaby on June 19, 2008 at 7:19 PM
That’s how I see it.
RushBaby on June 19, 2008 at 7:20 PM
It seems like their plates that say “Protect Florida Whales”, “Save the Manatee” and “Kids Deserve Justice” would be rejected as well then. “I Believe” states something about the owner of the car whereas those other phrases are advocating for a particular point of view.
JadeNYU on June 19, 2008 at 7:22 PM
Sorry if it looks like I’m picking on you because I keep referencing your post.
It’s only because I was also interested in what courses of action were available to other groups and your post was the first I saw that had any of the “vanity plate creation” rules listed.
JadeNYU on June 19, 2008 at 7:24 PM
RushBaby on June 19, 2008 at 7:19 PM
Thanks for the info.
Spirit of 1776 on June 19, 2008 at 7:24 PM
It’s really worth it to read the whole complaint. I’m not an expert at decoding legal documents, but it sounds like a disturbing brew of sectarianism and multi-culturalism launching an assault on the First Amendment. Their Claims for Relief include: Establishment Clause Violation, Free Speech Clause Violation, and South Carolina Religious Freedom Clause Violation.
RushBaby on June 19, 2008 at 7:28 PM
I didn’t take it that way at all!
RushBaby on June 19, 2008 at 7:29 PM
There should be no religious symbols on license plates – it’s a license plate, not a fu**ing billboard.
If you want to scream praise Jesus with your car, get a bumper sticker or spray paint it on your driver side door.
Next.
Dave Rywall on June 19, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Dang! I guess there’s no chance that I’ll be getting that Muslim license plate depicting a cartoon sketch of a naked prophet Mohammad humping a little nine-year-old girl. You know. The one where the prophet looks up at the observer and the plate has a caption that says “I’ll get to you in a minute, sweetie.”
My collie says:
Now what do we do for fun?
My collie says:
CyberCipher on June 19, 2008 at 7:30 PM
Uh, thats FLORIDA, not South Carolina.
Romeo13 on June 19, 2008 at 7:30 PM
Also from the complaint (edited for brevity, emphasis mine):
On some occasions, the General Assembly has, on its own, initiated legislation to create a particular plate. Legislature-initiated license plates include, for example, “Public Education: A Great Investment” and “Protect Endangered Species.” The legislature has also used this route to approve specialty license plates marked “God Bless America” and “In God We Trust.”
When the General Assembly initiates the plate on its own, the legislation usually specifies an additional fee and designates that excess funds be directed to a private or governmental entity supporting a cause related to the subject of the license plate.
Governor Sanford ordered that, because the legislature did not designate an excess fee for the plate, or an organization to receive funds collected through the sale of the plate, the DMV determine the amount necessary to produce the “I Believe” plates and set that amount as the cost of the plate. That cost has been publicly estimated at $4-$6.
Thus, users of the “I Believe” plate will, upon information and belief, pay significantly less money to display the plate on their vehicles than virtually all other specialty and vanity license-plate users.
RushBaby on June 19, 2008 at 7:40 PM
Indeed! I’ve been looking at Florida information all day because the picture in the screen cap that was taken from MSNBC has a Florida license plate.
Thanks for setting me straight on that!
JadeNYU on June 19, 2008 at 7:42 PM
…seriously.
Emilie H. on June 19, 2008 at 7:42 PM
HA!
Weight of Glory on June 19, 2008 at 7:48 PM
If each individual is paying for custom license plates, then there shouldn’t be an argument. Whereas, we know the anti Christian Satanists will do everything in there power, to eliminate Christ from the public square.
IMO, the U.S. Constitution has been badly mis-interpreted in the so-called establishment of religion clause! More court inventions. And the band plays on!
byteshredder on June 19, 2008 at 7:55 PM
Now some bonehead will come up with a Satanic plate or some other nonsense. Don’t people have anything else to do? Get a life. If you don’t like my license plate , toughsh*t.
johnnyU on June 19, 2008 at 8:01 PM
It’s a vanity plate.
VANITY, I SAY!
Sir Andrew on June 19, 2008 at 8:02 PM
How about when CyberCipher is cremated we affix a license plate to his urn. One that says: “I tried my best to put Barry Goldwater down and the only one that applauded was my stupid dog.”
MB4 on June 19, 2008 at 8:08 PM
Actually, it was the stupid dog that suggested it. Sorry. I just don’t know what gets into him sometimes.
CyberCipher on June 19, 2008 at 8:12 PM
I still have a problem finding the part of the 1st amendment about separation of church and state. I am not a smart man but I can cypher. Can someone help me with the part of the constitution that addresses separation of church and state?
Wade on June 19, 2008 at 8:43 PM
Why would anyone insult Barry Goldwater…the gay activist and abortionist “conservative”?
Wasn’t he the guy who said he was abducted by space aliens?
SaintOlaf on June 19, 2008 at 8:49 PM
Logic 101
Atheists and Muslims have something in common (SaintOlaf).
SaintOlaf and The Devil have something in common (MB4).
Therefore, atheists must be The Devil.
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 8:50 PM
Wade on June 19, 2008 at 8:53 PM
Esthier, do you know how specialty plates come about? In Ohio, we have pro-life plates that they got all upset about… until we pointed out that Ohio law states that all you have to do is get enough signatures to get it approved… sort of like getting something on the ballot. Even then, it is up to the individuals as to whether they wish to spend extra money to purchase them.
Sooooo… voters get to lobby for them. And individuals get to exercise their rights and pay extra to express their beliefs.
If atheists want their own plates, all they have to do is get enough signatures and pay extra. What is stopping them? They don’t want equality, they want inequality.
You also seem to forget that we have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. The separation of church and state argument is bogus. The Supreme Court had to dig through documents, and then pervert the intent of the Danbury Baptist letters… which were based around the idea that while a federal church would not be allowed (but that state-endorsed churches were still valid).
dominigan on June 19, 2008 at 8:56 PM
I think you totally missed the nuance in the 1st Ammendment. I believe that it is the only one that specifically mentions Congress… and not the Federal Government in general.
dominigan on June 19, 2008 at 9:00 PM
Dave Rywall on June 19, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Wade on June 19, 2008 at 8:53 PM
+1 We don’t often agree Dave Rywall, but on this one you have the most practical approach, and maintain the separation of church and state.
I’m for federalism but upon thinking about this, license plates are a registration/identification item. The liberty to express anything else is much bigger, on the rest of the vehicle.
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 9:01 PM
How about a plate commemorating atheist charities and organizations that, you know, help other people? Riiight. LOL
Sir Loin on June 19, 2008 at 9:02 PM
Classic
+1
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 9:05 PM
Sir Loin, nice try but I know givers and do-gooders (not in the typical negative sense) from the religious and from the atheist side. Charity is not an exclusive domain of religious folks, much as I appreciate their good hearts.
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Yeah, because athiests never do anything to help people, you arrogant prick.
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Because in a proper contitutional govt, the only branch making laws is the congress.
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 9:08 PM
It is obvious many people do not know, nor do they care because if they did, they might do some homework before posting something so silly as make one for all religions. While SC is at it maybe they could make one for all religions and for each religion make one in all languages.
Wade on June 19, 2008 at 9:09 PM
Did you preview what you just typed?
Do you really think that allowing individuals to purchase specialized plates… IS ESTABLISHING A RELIGION
Are you serious?
dominigan on June 19, 2008 at 9:09 PM
I travel to the South much for business.
When I comment how nice people are there, I’m often told by the Southern professionals I work with that it’s pretty typical to get too interested/nosy into other people’s happenings, including their beliefs.
One concern I’d have, for those who won’t have such a plate, is identification and potential shunning (not only of atheists).
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 9:12 PM
Who makes laws for the federal government?
Wade on June 19, 2008 at 9:12 PM
Entelechy, please help me on this. What does +1 mean and who is we?
My blank post implied, if I had nothing good to say, say nothing.
Wade on June 19, 2008 at 9:19 PM
dominigan,
SC is such a backwards state that they should keep their idiot plates, SC and TN both have religious tests still in their constitutions.
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 9:19 PM
The message sent by the opposition to these plates and almost any other story picked at random from a newspaper is that draconian “equality” is the ruling principle of society and that the majority culture is illegitimate. Thus a society of 300 million people has to be turned upside down and inside out in innumerable ways to suit any and every minority.
Anyone who thinks that all religions ought to be represented is a multiculturalist and is giving a green light for their civillisation to be destroyed in the cause of liberal tolerance.
aengus on June 19, 2008 at 9:20 PM
They are already banned from public office, that is pretty darn shunned.
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 9:21 PM
BTW I’m not arguing from a Christian perspective here. I’m generalising. Another instance is an old thread where HA commenters agreed that the British Library should be opened up to all-comers/school kids/homeless people etc. even though it created a colossal headache for serious researchers because it would be “fair”, “equal” etc.
Its only when the consequences of liberalism are felt that the complaining begins but most conservatives believe fully in liberal principles even if they balk at their logical application.
aengus on June 19, 2008 at 9:24 PM
I would like a Jewish plate, and I am sure I would get it because Christians like to feel like they are showing us respect.
I do not think my friend Omar will get his crescent and star plate.
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 9:26 PM
If secession comes, I will stand with R.E. Lee, Stonewall, and those who embraced his heritage.
Tim Burton on June 19, 2008 at 9:28 PM
Sure he will. All he has to do is claim hes being discriminated against, mount a legal challenge and he’ll get his plate with an apology and damages for “mental distress”.
And conservatives will not oppose it because to do so would be “unequal”, “not fair” etc.
aengus on June 19, 2008 at 9:30 PM
+1, I thought meant “the same, one more” I sincerely apologize for not knowing what your blank post meant.
The “we” referred strictly to Dave Rywall and myself.
Once again, I’m sincerely sorry for the confusion on your post.
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Why shouldnt he get his plate, you seem very offended that he would get one.
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Wade is just trying to start trouble.
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 9:42 PM
Squid, I don’t think so, or hope he’s not. I sincerely misread his blank comment and hope we can go back to where we were, even if we don’t always agree.
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 9:45 PM
Good to know you stand with traitors.
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 9:45 PM
Problems like this can be avoided by preserving the separation of church and state.
FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 9:46 PM
He tried to start stuff with me on another board, he has very hit and run troll behavior.
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 9:47 PM
Oh brother,lets take the Kane and Kodo’s
approach from the Simpson’s!
Religious plates for some,Religious plates
for none,there problem solved!
Actually,(tongue in cheek)I wanna see how there
going to cram Mecca on the plate!————–:)
canopfor on June 19, 2008 at 9:49 PM
Does anyone know if there are restrictions for personalized license plates. They are all over the roads in California. I wonder if anything can go on those here and in other states, and how that goes along with this topic.
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 9:50 PM
We just had a moratorium on personalized plates here in FL. Gov Crist just signed it. Thankfully it stopped this kind of stupid from getting approved in FL.
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 9:53 PM
This is a fairly interesting article on vanity plates and similar topics. Excerpt on one case in SC
Squid, so you all have numbers and letters combined, and issued by the state now?
Entelechy on June 19, 2008 at 9:59 PM
Yep
Squid Shark on June 19, 2008 at 10:03 PM
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