Breaking: Obama passes on public financing Update: AOL Hot Seat poll added
posted at 10:41 am on June 19, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Barack Obama passed on public financing for the general election, breaking a pledge he made last year to accept federal money and spending restrictions if the Republican candidate also agreed to it. John McCain offered to stay within the system, but in an e-mailed video message today to his supporters, Obama announced that he would renege on his offer. The reasons that Obama offers are laughable in the extreme, and self-contradictory in several points:
Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Thursday he’ll bypass the federal public financing system in the general election, abandoning an earlier commitment to take the money if his Republican rival did as well.
Obama, who set records raising money in the primary election, will forgo more than $84 million that would have been available to him in the general election. He would be the first candidate to do so since Congress passed 1970s post-Watergate campaign finance laws. Sen. John McCain, the Republican nominee in waiting, has taken steps to accept the public funds in the general election.
Obama officials said they decided to take that route because McCain is already spending privately raised funds toward the general election campaign. Obama has vastly outraised McCain, however, and would likely retain that advantage if McCain accepts the public money.
One of the reasons Obama offers is that the McCain campaign and the RNC take lobbyist money. So does the DNC and many of its subsidiaries. Obama has lobbyists among his major bundlers. It’s an absurdly flimsy excuse.
So too was the other major reason Obama cites in his video. He claims that the Republicans have mastered the art of the 527, which has nothing to do with public financing. Democrats have their own 527s, and in 2004 used them much more effectively than the GOP, thanks to George Soros and other big-ticket Democratic donors. This excuse doesn’t even pass the smell test.
Obama then stares sanctimoniously at a point just above and to the right of the camera while declaring his undying support for public financing, which he proves by abandoning it. He then declares the presidential system to be “broken”, but never explains why he hasn’t lifted a finger to fix it during his three years in the Senate. Furthermore, the system hasn’t changed since Obama gave this answer to Chris Wallace in April of this year:
The calculus is simple: Obama feels he can raise more money outside the system than he can get inside of it. He wants to blame McCain, the rain, the park, and other things, but it’s the money and nothing more. It’s a dishonest attempt to explain away Obama’s dishonesty.
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This guy’s public statements need to come with expiry dates.
Or is he just appealing to Hillary’s voters in the sociopathically self-serving bloc?
DrSteve on June 19, 2008 at 10:46 AM
And his water carriers in the MSM will praise him for finally take a stand against the “broken presidential system”. Take that 527s! In your face lobbyists!
p0s3r on June 19, 2008 at 10:48 AM
The RNC should make commercials with what appears to be him playing ping pong against himself. One side of the table he says one thing. On the other side of the table, he says the complete opposite. End the commercial with “Well, what is your real position, Senator Obama? If you take both sides to every issue, how can we expect you to lead our country?”
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on June 19, 2008 at 10:54 AM
I suppose that the Barack Obama who made that promise is not the Barack Obama that Barack Obama knew.
kozmocostello on June 19, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Change!
phronesis on June 19, 2008 at 11:01 AM
This guy has a Tuzla story every week.
jgapinoy on June 19, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Public financing doesn’t help Michelle Obama’s kids.
Matticus Finch on June 19, 2008 at 11:02 AM
It’s no wonder that the Dems are better at 527s.
Corporate bosses want the government to pay for the health care that the bosses have been subsidizing.
jgapinoy on June 19, 2008 at 11:03 AM
I’ve siad it before…
Obama IS the Candidate of Hope and Change…
Yep, constantly changing, and hoping to get it right this time…
Romeo13 on June 19, 2008 at 11:07 AM
At least we have the Clintons working to take this guy down. That’s going to be worth a few points in November.
JiangxiDad on June 19, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Hope!! Audacity!!!
This discussion about Barack Obama by Barack Obama is not helping Barack Obama’s kids.
mjk on June 19, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Why? We already know the expiration date on Obama’s promises. As soon as he figures out that it’s no longer convenient and/or politically expedient for him to keep his word, he breaks it (and blames McCain or Republicans in general for “forcing” him to be so dishonest and hypocritical).
Obama’s a sleaze.
AZCoyote on June 19, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Well…..aside from Obama’s blatant duplicity (which is damning in and of itself), there really should be no such thing as federal funding for political campaigns. It should always be an entirely private matter.
LimeyGeek on June 19, 2008 at 11:17 AM
“This statement is inoperative.”
NeighborhoodCatLady on June 19, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Only with full transparency and accountability (which we should have anyway).
Also, Congress should not be able to cripple that transparency and accountability by refusing to vote on FEC appointees.
NeighborhoodCatLady on June 19, 2008 at 11:22 AM
Media fawning over Obama’s courage! and bravery! in standing up to the evil Republican public financing scheme coming in 3… 2… 1…
Gilda on June 19, 2008 at 11:22 AM
Looks like George Soros wants to really open his wallet
look out America..George Soros is taking over the White house!
galtg on June 19, 2008 at 11:23 AM
I know I’m showing my ignorance, but why is this optional, rather than mandatory? And what happens to all those funds if the canditates don’t accept them?
Ann on June 19, 2008 at 11:23 AM
HOPE!
mylegsareswollen on June 19, 2008 at 11:24 AM
Exactly. He has a few despicable 527s out there to make/run nasty attack ads against Maverick.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on June 19, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Nope. It’s none of our damn business who gives money to whom and how much.
LimeyGeek on June 19, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Is this man, B. Hussein, capable of telling the truth? Something he can stick with for 365 days? Let alone 4 years…
shooter on June 19, 2008 at 11:28 AM
maybe this IS the change his posters mention.
shooter on June 19, 2008 at 11:30 AM
Complete with ever-so-edgy FIST BUMP!!!!
mjk on June 19, 2008 at 11:33 AM
I disagree.
Give as much money as you want, but make that information public.
If there is a conflict of interest, the bought and paid for politician should be required to recuse himself from the topic being voted; that politician can argue his position, but can’t vote.
rockhauler on June 19, 2008 at 11:37 AM
This is Obama’s most egregious lie to date. It is a very, very big deal and I hope it gets appropriate coverage by the media.
davenp35 on June 19, 2008 at 11:37 AM
You’re talking about two different things.
If people wish to donate their private money to an election campaign, it is none of my business to whom they donate, or how much. A corporation should be similarly free, yet tax records and shareholder information may reveal much.
Once that person is in office, it’s a different game. ‘House Ethics” (please stop laughing) should dictate ‘disclosure’ rules to keep that sunlight a-shining. Seriously. Stop laughing.
LimeyGeek on June 19, 2008 at 11:41 AM
Change you can believe in! See, he changed, right there!
If Obama was a “new” type of politician, he would have admitted straight up front that, yes, I am passing on the federal financing because I can make more money outside of the system.
But he’s not.
Seixon on June 19, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Would you care to invest in my porcine aeronautics company?
LimeyGeek on June 19, 2008 at 11:48 AM
Tim Russert’s Rainbows Sky Writing he doesn’t need any stinkin white boards :)
http://advanceindiana.blogspot.com/2008/06/tim-russerts-rainbow.html
Dr Evil on June 19, 2008 at 11:52 AM
I doubt that will happen. From a quick glance at the usual lefty suspects, the reasoning seems to be that Obama has vowed not to take money from PACs/lobbyists and will not “allow” 527s to act on his behalf.
Of course he will end up doing these things. He already is, while couching it in manipulative semantics and legalistic evasions.
Soros and the San Francisco residents of Billionaires’ Row will (try to) purchase the presidency for their puppet, while his starstruck masses will fervently believe that his campaign was funded entirely by $5 contributions from pensioners, migrant farm workers and street urchins selling lumps of scavenged coal.
The media will laud him for it. Cults of personality do not form around rational ideas or behavior.
Gilda on June 19, 2008 at 12:01 PM
SHOW ME THE MONEY. :-)
JeffinSac on June 19, 2008 at 12:08 PM
ED!!! Kudos on the uber-obscure Cowsills reference!!!
D2Boston on June 19, 2008 at 12:08 PM
Don’t listen to what I’m sayin’, just listen to how well I say it!
-Obama, Lesson #1.
Greased weasels envy him.
profitsbeard on June 19, 2008 at 12:11 PM
Well, the way he spends money in the primary he is going to need all the money he can get.
jharada on June 19, 2008 at 12:18 PM
And make no mistake, that’s exactly what this is.
There was a point at which I actually had hopes for Obama. I’m a conservative, sure, but if he’d been somewhere in the centrist mold of Bill Clinton, I’d have been willing to consider putting up with some misfits on ideas for the sake of the message a black man as President would send to the young black men of America.
But now–and the video of this announcement sealed the deal–the man turns my stomach.
I wish we had a better voice on the right than McCain running against this lying, dissembling charlatan, but we don’t.
However I really just can’t see the “M’s” as Frank Luntz calls them in the end buying into this.
This is the ultimate freeze-dried, packaged, processed political campaign. No substance at all. Just a pretty face over a perfectly tailored suit reading his lines from a script. There’s more of the preacher than the politician to Obama. And his message isn’t about politics, it’s about personality. I have never seen anyone so blatantly attempt to game the American system.
Can you imagine the hue and cry from the very same press that masturbates over this empty suit’s every utterance if the same empty, vacuous, sloganeering nothingness of a candidate, with the same absolutely empty resume, spouting Rightwing codewords to rapturous crowds with upturned eyes and glowingly empty faces had secured the Republican nomination?
I’m convinced he cannot win, though. The mask is too thin and the illusion too obvious. Plus he just knows no words that aren’t of the Left. he can’t give an answer that isn’t Leftist boilerplate.
Man I just hope I’m not wrong.
(And yes, I know his adoring masses aren’t going to listen to one word of thought or reason. I’m just convinced that in the end there’re a lot more people like me–who in the beginning saw something to like in the guy, but the more they see the more he’ll engender revulsion than rapture amongst them.)
Typhoon on June 19, 2008 at 12:19 PM
I posted this in another thread but someone help me out.
yakwill83 on June 19, 2008 at 12:21 PM
Obama’s money pool isn’t bottomless — in fact, one of the reasons why the DNC’s coffers have cobwebs in them right now is because so much of the party’s normal income has been shifted by the fanatics to Obama. In contract, McCain’s donations have fallen short of goals, but despite conservatives’ anger at Republicans in general since 2004, the RNC is in far better shape than Howard Dean’s crew.
So the big media will buy the Obama campaign’s spin that he was forced into doing this because of the evil RNC’s financial advantage via lobbyists, even though (or in reality, because) the combined funds of McCain and the RNC still fall short of Barack’s fundraising totals.
jon1979 on June 19, 2008 at 12:22 PM
uhh..did anyone notice..uhh..that Michelle Obama..uhh…yesterday on the view..uhh..use uh..uhh alot?
uhhh just like her hubby!
becki51758 on June 19, 2008 at 12:23 PM
Cue Claude Rains in ‘Casablanca’.
locomotivebreath1901 on June 19, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Obama Math:
The Audacity of Hope varies directly with the Dishonesty of the Promise.
The Audacity of Hope varies indirectly with its basis in reality.
CK MacLeod on June 19, 2008 at 12:27 PM
A bit off-topic but that is ridiculous!!!! We all know the Messiah uh.uh.uh made that rainbow happen. A chicken in every pot, a rainbow at every funeral. I am so proud/
HawaiiLwyr on June 19, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Haughty, very haughty.
Kini on June 19, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Of course this man changed. He has no convictions, no beliefs and no MO other than making pretty noise and never-to-be-kept promises. The next few months are a crucial turning point in our nation’s future. He is the George B. McClellan to Lincoln. Lincoln pulled the election out in ‘64; let’s all hope McCain can do the same or we will not recognize the CHANGEs that our country will face.
carbon_footprint on June 19, 2008 at 12:42 PM
Well, actually, he hedges his bets in that video. Basically, since he knew that the RNC and 527s on the GOP side were going to put a lot of money into the campaign, his talk of being interested in public financing was a non-starter.
He said that he wasn’t interested in letting the RNC and 527s run wild, but if there was an agreement with him and McCain to go public financing, then he would be interested.
So not really a lie at all, just that he made a faux promise back then.
Seixon on June 19, 2008 at 12:43 PM
McCain better knock this out of the park.
DaveS on June 19, 2008 at 12:45 PM
Ha! The media would be rending their garments over the End of Civilization if the situation was reversed. Keith Obermann would collapse from dehydration caused by uncontrollable projectile spittle.
Yet the people who have been so taken in by this increasingly obvious con man are supposedly our intellectual superiors. They sure don’t look so smart to me and I hope your prediction of an Obama defeat in November is correct. For all our sakes.
Gilda on June 19, 2008 at 12:45 PM
O what a tangled web he weaves continuing on in deceit.
Come into my parlor said Obama to the fly.
Tis the prettiest little parlor
that ever took your eye, your pocket book, your life.
maverick muse on June 19, 2008 at 12:46 PM
Beautiful spin. ;)
LimeyGeek on June 19, 2008 at 12:46 PM
Nobody cares*
*Eeyore.
Buy Danish on June 19, 2008 at 12:48 PM
How are donations/contributions traced outside of the system?
Likely they are not.
maverick muse on June 19, 2008 at 12:52 PM
Barack Obama, like every other Democrat candidate to come before him, keeps every promise he intends to keep. Period.
Texas Rainmaker on June 19, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Heh, good one! Apologies in advance to Sir Walter Scott:
Smarmion, by Barack H. Obama
Yet Fox’s sharp questions must I shun,
To Kos’s bosom I must run
Oh! what a tangled web I weave
When first I lie to make them believe!
A Soros tool! No wonder why
I’m a bought and paid for Puppet Guy
Gilda on June 19, 2008 at 1:05 PM
“Sen. Obama promised to bring change. He said that he would usher in a new post-partisan era blah blah blah. He said that he would join me to reduce the influence of lobbyists blah blah and accept public financing for his campaign. Today he reneged on that promise. Time and again, his calls for change have proven to be little more than typical campaign lipservice.
I will be accepting public financing, because–like Sen. Obama–I pledged to you that I would do so. If you want change that you can actually believe in, you’re looking at it right here.”
– John McCain, in the speech that he should give but probably won’t.
DaveS on June 19, 2008 at 1:06 PM
I was hoping it was Ed that made this post. It is absolutely hilarious to see you guys complain about this. Firstly, the general public doesn’t care one bit about it, secondly you’ve ignored the many “shifts” of John McCain and you like to pretend like having people donate money to a campaign is the worst sin you could ever commit when running for the Presidency.
I command you all: get angry about this - make me laugh more.
Nonfactor on June 19, 2008 at 1:10 PM
The 527s have to go period, they should be dismantled - perferrably with a baseball bat and a sledge hammer.
AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 1:11 PM
Sounds like you’re happy his lie was exposed. Good for you.
a capella on June 19, 2008 at 1:14 PM
Sure. Who goes first?
a capella on June 19, 2008 at 1:15 PM
I don’t like to look at it as a lie so much as a politically expedient shift in position. The difference between what Obama did and what John McCain is doing on just about every single issue is that the American people don’t care about whether or not someone accepts public financing.
Nonfactor on June 19, 2008 at 1:16 PM
Yeah!
Damn straight!
Who ever had the idea of letting people of common cause join together and try to influence the outcome of an election?
Regulation of speech. That’s what we need. Sooner the better. If anyone wants to voice his opinion, take a baseball bat to him.
Typhoon on June 19, 2008 at 1:26 PM
Uhh, at the risk of reasonably refuting one who Issues! Commandments!, you have clearly missed the entire point of the controversy.
It’s not that Obama has refused public financing, it’s that he repeatedly said that he would accept public financing.
See, if he hadn’t made past statements that totally contradict his current actions, there would be no flip-flop, no hypocrisy, no dissembling, no pandering, no sleaziness.
But since he did, well, he’s being held responsible for what he says and does. That’s what you really resent now, isn’t it? Little Baracky Messiah got caught in a fib.
Don’t worry though, I’m sure you’ll find a way to rationalize it and make yourself feel all better soon enough.
Try chanting this over and over in a darkened room filled with all your aromatherapy purchases for 20 minutes: yeswecan yeswecan yeswecan yeswecan. If that doesn’t work you can always resort to pills.
Gilda on June 19, 2008 at 1:28 PM
I know you don’t like to look at it as a lie. Thinking back, do you recall how upset Obama was with Rev Wright for saying he was just a politician who would say whatever a politician needs to say? Why was he so upset with that? He wasn’t playing pretend, was he?
a capella on June 19, 2008 at 1:31 PM
Liar Liar, Turbin on Fire
EJDolbow on June 19, 2008 at 1:33 PM
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. I’m well aware of the “flip-flop,” I am simply amused at how angry you guys are getting over an “issue” that the general public doesn’t care about. It makes me smile.
Nonfactor on June 19, 2008 at 1:34 PM
It’s a good thing John McCain got all Bipartisanship-y with Russ Feingold to Get Things Done and reform campaign finance.
misterpeasea on June 19, 2008 at 1:37 PM
If given a chance to take an optional 84 million dollars or around 200 million dollars what would you choose? Even if I had promised to take that 84 million I would back out of that agreement the second I realized I could make more than double the amount, but to think that a pretty clear-cut decision like that would give people free reign to say that every single one of your decisions is “political” is a bit overreaching and convoluted to the point of willful deception.
Nonfactor on June 19, 2008 at 1:38 PM
I only sleep with wisecracking Conservative babes.
Typhoon on June 19, 2008 at 1:41 PM
Lonely much?
Nonfactor on June 19, 2008 at 1:46 PM
I wouldn’t have made the original promise, if I thought my position might change. But, as you say, Obama does the politically expedient thing depending on his circumstances at the time. Is this part of the judgment thing he keeps touting? It certainly can’t be aimed at enhancing his credibility or a perception of the type of moral character voters like in a leader. Obviously, you don’t consider that important.
a capella on June 19, 2008 at 1:48 PM
“I could no more disown public financing than I could my own white grandmother”.
Magic Bus by The Who
I don’t care how much I’m paid
I wanna drive my bus over promises made.
Magic Bus, Magic Bus!
Each time I go a different way
I want it, I want it, I want it, I want it!
Paul-Cincy on June 19, 2008 at 1:49 PM
It might not have come across but the first sentence in my post at 1:16 was pure, unadulterated irony. And with the problems you guys are having with John McCain and his incessant flip-flopping I think you should probably save the talk about someone showing a lack of credibility and judgement when they decide to accept money from supporters instead of Joe Taxpayer.
Nonfactor on June 19, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Where’s all the liberal outrage at relying on the eeevil private sector instead of suckling at the doubleplusgood gummint teat?
misterpeasea on June 19, 2008 at 2:00 PM
Awww. Effete detached amusement from on high, how very privileged the rest of us are to bask in your glorious presence! Really, I had no idea that you were the One True Determiner of the general public’s interest.
Had I known, I would not have suggested aromatherapy. I would’ve directed you straight to the pills.
Gilda on June 19, 2008 at 2:02 PM
Yes, the evil private sector consisting of more than a million small donors.
Well feel free to make up for lost time.
Nonfactor on June 19, 2008 at 2:04 PM
The latter. Which means Barry’s word is worth nothing when money is thrown at him.
But I’m sure this is just a one time thing!
Chuck Schick on June 19, 2008 at 2:05 PM
Ha! How you doin’?
:)
Gilda on June 19, 2008 at 2:06 PM
A quality I’d like in a President. Don’t get stuck with a horrible deal your opponent wants you to agree with, find a better one.
Nonfactor on June 19, 2008 at 2:12 PM
Most people don’t think being a self-serving liar is a positive thing, but hey if it makes Obama more appealing to you that’s your own choice.
18-1 on June 19, 2008 at 2:21 PM
Horrible deal? The law that applies to them equally?
It was Obama who made the promise to sticj to it, not McCain.
Obama lied, or at least chose to go back on his word for money the money. But Im sure that’s in no way indicative to how he would govern whatsoever!
Can’t spin this one, but I will enjoy watching you try.
Chuck Schick on June 19, 2008 at 2:21 PM
That is hands down the funniest thing I’ve read all day. Also, sadly, true.
doppelganglander on June 19, 2008 at 2:24 PM
And McCain changing his position on a handful of actual issues for the power is a far less severe misstep than Obama’s rejection of a possible deal. Right…
Nonfactor on June 19, 2008 at 2:26 PM
One of the interesting things about Obama is that when he first appeared on the national stage, he looked like the anti-Clinton. Sure he was a leftwinger, but he seemed to have some integrity and honesty.
Wow was that assessment off.
This guy has Clinton’s slickness squared. He can throw his own grandmother under the bus, and get lauded for it.
18-1 on June 19, 2008 at 2:27 PM
Was I defending McCain as a candidate?
No, I said Obama is a liar.
Chuck Schick on June 19, 2008 at 2:28 PM
But, but…McCain!!!
18-1 on June 19, 2008 at 2:28 PM
And of course Obama clearly lied about his primary NAFTA position as well, or flip-flopped, whatever you want to call it.
Chuck Schick on June 19, 2008 at 2:29 PM
That was actually pretty good.
Anyway, here’s why you’re mistaken on the overall outcome of what your buddy Barry did today:
You’re right, in the overall scheme of things, non-political junkies just aren’t going to get worked about whether he did or didn’t take public financing.
But there’s much more subtext than that. Not the least of which is that here we all are on the right, as a general rule not in favor of public financing of campaigns, castigating Barry who say he is, for not publicly financing his campaign.
Hell, I’d rather there was no such thing as “public financing.” If Barry said that, I’d applaud him. But no, he’s still for it, robustly.
It’s just that he’s Barry so the rules that apply to lesser mortals don’t apply to him.
And there, sir, is your problem.
If Barry had been as smart as all you Barry worshippers think he is, he would have stood up today and piously announced that as a matter of principle he was going to keep his word and accept public financing; because he believes it’s essential to the democratic process of this country that he loves, and the American values he grew up revering in Indonesia.
He would have asked his mighty army of checkbook warriors to open wide and fund construction of a new monument in his honor in South Dakota, as after his
reignterm has ended, he will of course be the most beloved figure in American history.Okay, I got carried away there, but anyway, he could have asked them to support local Dems, or something, to help him enact whatever his agenda is–see above–and not only would he truly have looked like a different kind of politician in the doing, but it would have been a freebie, because the thing is, money just isn’t going to matter this year.
Barry outspent Hillary by how much in Pennsylvania?
How’d that work out?
And he can carpet-bomb Texas with c-notes if he wants to. McCain would be advised to let him. He ain’t carrying this state.
People’s attitudes this round are not going to be swayed by tv commercials. Not by the likes of Barry for sure. I’m afraid if folks haven’t quaffed his Kool Aid by now, they’re not gonna do it.
And what chance he has of getting them to, it’s only going to be by truly being a breed apart. It’s not so much that what he did today really hurt him, it’s that what he could have done might have done just that.
Typhoon on June 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM
So you really had no point other than to reiterrate Ed? Oh wait, you made a judgement on how Obama would govern based on the rejection of a possible deal about campaign finance. See my first post.
Nonfactor on June 19, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Obama went back on his word for money.
Where’s your messiah now?
Chuck Schick on June 19, 2008 at 2:34 PM
As anyone else been wondering if times are so hard for Barry’s supporters, you know, after being subjected for seven years to the wretched economic policies of the Worst. President. Ever. where they keep coming up with all this dough.
Typhoon on June 19, 2008 at 2:41 PM
When Bozo speaks, he needs to prove his fingers aren’t crossed.
oakpack on June 19, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Uhm. That IS the private sector, is it not?
misterpeasea on June 19, 2008 at 3:31 PM
Moveon.org
AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 3:33 PM
They are both shameless liars. Got it? Now can we move on? Agree?
Its actually kind of liberating having nobody to cheerlead for. Everything is so clear to me now.
Nonfactor cheerleads for Obama and can’t see sleazyness for what it is. And Republicans have developed some need to cheerlead for McCain and are now blind to the same sleazy behavior on their side. Aren’t we all having such a lovely partisan time?
Zetterson on June 19, 2008 at 3:34 PM
And billionaire bundlers pulling from every industry you blame the woes of society on.
If Obama really were a grassroots movement, he wouldnt have lost the primary popular vote to Hillary (depending if you award Michigan to him).
Chuck Schick on June 19, 2008 at 4:06 PM
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