Louisiana science coalition begs Jindal: Veto the creationism bill

posted at 9:10 pm on June 17, 2008 by Allahpundit

Via LGF, showcasing a killer quote from Jindal’s college biology professor, the Louisiana Coalition for Science makes its case. The bill’s been on his desk since yesterday, having passed the state senate 36-0 and the house 94-3. You’ll find the text here, scoured of any references to creationism or intelligent design and mentioning religion only in a heavy-handed section aimed at shielding the bill from the inevitable Establishment Clause challenge. I recommend reading the annotated version instead, but whatever you do, note that the state isn’t compelling every school district to teach ID; they’re leaving it up to each local school board that wants to teach it to request permission to do so. That’s another concession aimed at limiting the scope of the legislation to maximize its chances of surviving a constitutional challenge, although in light of what Jindal had to say about empowering individual school districts on “Face the Nation,” it might be there to make the bill more attractive to him, too.

Given the size of the majorities in both houses, it’s going to pass no matter what he does. Even so, I’m curious to see how he games this politically. If he signs it, he leaves himself open to attack from the left four years from now. If he vetoes it, he pisses off the base. If he does nothing … it becomes law in 20 days, although that would indicate a certain lack of backbone on the hottest of hot button issues. Prediction: He signs it.


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and this is the grand evidence for evolution….uh huh…thats it?

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 2:09 PM

No, it’s not the grand evidence, but it’s additional evidence.

Lenski’s experiment is also yet another poke in the eye for anti-evolutionists, notes Jerry Coyne, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Chicago. “The thing I like most is it says you can get these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events,” he says. “That’s just what creationists say can’t happen.”

FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 2:46 PM

No, it’s not the grand evidence, but it’s additional evidence.

its evidence of micro evolution. what you need is evidence of macro evolution. and so far darwinists have none.

as behe said, the ability was already there…

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 2:48 PM

I’m struggling to understand how you can possibly defend your flawed position..

“Ok the illuminati perform mock human sacrifices to Baal at bohemian grove, were responsible for the brutal,occult french revolution, founded the KKK, invented and promoted the false theory of evolution, founded Eugenics and formed communism…but I think they’re probably right about evolution..I don’t understand why they perform “mock” human sacrifices to Baal at bohemian grove though..but I’ll believe them about evolution..it’s easier than realizing I’m accountable to God for my sins”

SaintOlaf on June 19, 2008 at 2:49 PM

Bershtein et al, “Robustness-epistasis link shapes the fitness landscape of a randomly drifting protein,” Nature 444, 929-932 (14 December 2006) | doi:10.1038/nature05385.

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 2:09 PM

The study I linked to has nothing to do with drug resistance, the mutations are of a different nature.

FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 2:51 PM

The study I linked to has nothing to do with drug resistance, the mutations are of a different nature.

FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 2:51 PM

it showed that mutations don’t ‘add up’ they create stress on the organism.

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 2:52 PM

it showed that mutations don’t ‘add up’ they create stress on the organism.

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 2:52 PM

Not true:

The citrate-using mutants increased in population size and diversity.

FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 2:58 PM

Not true:

thats exactly what the study I posted showed.

you’re comparing apples and oranges. it shows you don’t really understand what I posted.

the study I posted showed the effects of mutations on an organism…not what happens to a population once a mutation occurs and is passed on.

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 3:02 PM

Well, once sufficient mutations occur that fertile offspring cannot be produced by mating the mutated and the original members, you have what is known as a new species.

Salamantis on June 19, 2008 at 3:05 PM

once sufficient mutations

and how many mutations are ‘sufficient’ to produce a new species?? and what is a species anyway?

are lions and tigers different species?

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 3:06 PM

They’re different enough so that their offspring arer sterile, but alike enough that the can produce offspring, just like horses and donkeys produce sterile mules. I guess that the macro-micro distinction isn’t as cut and dried as some would wish, but insted gradual and, dare I say, evolutionary.

Salamantis on June 19, 2008 at 3:21 PM

They’re different enough so that their offspring arer sterile,

then thats the end of it…how do you explain the diversity if the mutated offspring are sterile? evolution ends right there.

and again, are lions and tigers different species?

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 3:29 PM

No, both species continue to evolve their separate ways. And I would indeed consider lions and tigers to be different species, as if you had one of each, of opposite sexes, in isolation, they would die out, and the sterile offspring resemble both parents, but neither completely.

Salamantis on June 19, 2008 at 3:35 PM

For me, if two organisms cannot procreate fertile descendents, they are of differing species.

Salamantis on June 19, 2008 at 3:35 PM

No, both species continue to evolve their separate ways.

how can they continue if the offspring is sterile?

And I would indeed consider lions and tigers to be different species,

interesting…they can mate, and produce a liger…the point being that our classification systems, our notion of ‘species’ may not reflect reality.

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 3:37 PM

No, both species continue to evolve their separate ways.

how can they continue if the offspring is sterile?

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 3:37 PM

That’s the point. Two lions have fertile offspring and two tigers have fertile offspring but the offspring of a lion and tiger are sterile.

FloatingRock on June 19, 2008 at 3:46 PM

They evolve their own separate ways by mating with members of their own species and not members of other species, of course – and thus producing fertile descendants of that species.

Salamantis on June 19, 2008 at 4:13 PM

And those members of separate species may come to be isolated from one another, and undergo differential environmental selection pressures, which would select for different mutational traits, and cause the separate species to further diverge.

Salamantis on June 19, 2008 at 4:15 PM

The father of the ID movement is Phillip Johnson.

Johnson calls his movement “The Wedge.” The objective, he says, is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to “the truth” of the Bible and then “the question of sin” and finally “introduced to Jesus.”

Check out his long term goals:

• To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science.

• To see design theory application in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics and cosmology in the natural sciences, psychology, ethics, politics, theology and philosophy in the humanities; to see its innuence in the fine arts.

• To see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral and political life.

I said earlier in this thread that I’m OK with teaching ID in schools after students have met certain prerequisites. I’ve changed my mind after reading this and the annotated version of the bill that AP linked which shows how sneaky and dishonest the handling of this bill was.

RushBaby on June 19, 2008 at 4:30 PM

As the topic ought rightly to be, Gov. Jindal, upon whom, given the current dearth of leadership in the republican party, far more expectation has heaped than can possibly be satisfied by any mere mortal, I thought I’d provide you all, with a link to The Dead Pelican, essential reading for all things political in Louisiana. I would ask you to note then, the complete absence of the controversy being here discussed, in lieu of what there appears, of far more vital, vexing and potential harm to the Governor’s future, at least at the state-wide level, that of the problem of a pay-raise, the legislature has proposed for itself over which, thus far, despite apparent considerable rancor, he hesitates. Resident Blogger, Chad Rogers, avowed Paulian libertarian and up till now, an enthusiastic Jindal supporter, divines great hazard in his latest rant where in he extols the young Governor to fish or cut bate.

Nyog_of_the_Bog on June 19, 2008 at 5:55 PM

This is what I don’t like – the hillbilly madness side of the GOP.

They love to stay stuck on stupid in the name of God, science is bad, blah, blah, blah.

AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 6:47 PM

AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 6:47 PM

Ditto and if you don’t agree with them then you are not “a real conservative”. Those who know don’t speak and those who speak don’t know.

ronsfi on June 19, 2008 at 7:00 PM

AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 6:47 PM
Ditto and if you don’t agree with them then you are not “a real conservative”. Those who know don’t speak and those who speak don’t know.

ronsfi on June 19, 2008 at 7:00 PM

But that’s the point, they are not Conservatives at all. Real Conservatives do not legislate social issues, we are for less gov’t period.

AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 7:05 PM

Just so everyone knows:

AprilOrit is a Barack Hussein Obama troll.

SaintOlaf on June 19, 2008 at 7:15 PM

Just so everyone knows:

AprilOrit is a Barack Hussein Obama troll.

SaintOlaf on June 19, 2008 at 7:15 PM

Yeah right, like everyone here is going to believe that crap from the likes of you, the mad wingnut take-everyone’s-inventory-religious fanatic.

We all especially liked, not, the filth that came out of your trap the other day about Tim Russert, you’re the biggest troll that ever dared to show their face while daring to pretend to be a real Christian, you shameful charleton.

AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 7:58 PM

Why don’t you repeat what you said about Tim?? Go ahead I dare you, I duble dare you.

AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 7:59 PM

And I am not alone –

Do you have a problem with me saying that everyone who does not accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour will burn in Hell for eternity and stating that it is a fact?

SaintOlaf on June 14, 2008 at 1:33 AM
One thing is for sure, if Christ is floating around someplace and came back to earth he sure wouldn’t want to be a member of SaintOlaf’s church.

MB4 on June 14, 2008 at 1:43 AM

Olaf, are you really an atheist trying to give Christians a bad name? If you are that is not playing fair.

MB4 on June 14, 2008 at 1:45 AM

It’s people like you who will in the near future, imprison anyone who mentions the name JESUS CHRIST.

Do you have a problem with me saying that everyone who does not accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour will burn in Hell for eternity and stating that it is a fact?

Would you be in favor of imprisoning anyone who says anything as an absolute fact…or just the Christians that do?

If you disagree with me…debate me and see if your theology holds up.

I am not the one afraid to debate you. It is you who are the cowards because you know your theology is weak.

SaintOlaf on June 14, 2008 at 1:33 AM
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Your choice to have this debate here, now, and with this tone does not suggest a gentle or respectful spirit. Yet again, you fall short of the mark. You might try carrying that cross instead of attempting to beat people over the head with it.

TheUnrepentantGeek on June 16, 2008 at 1:09 PM

I hope that you repented and accepted Jesus Christ before your untimely death, Tim.

Eternity is forever…and all those who do not accept Jesus Christ will spend it in Hell.

SaintOlaf on June 13, 2008 at 4:40 PM
He was a practicing Catholic and regular church attendee. No one can know the state of his soul, but he certainly made a point of letting people know how important his faith was in his life.

dedalus on June 13, 2008 at 4:52 PM

SaintOlaf on June 13, 2008 at 4:40 PM
His faith was one of the most important elements of his life, he took is very seriously.

oh yeah, your an a**hole. shut up

Squid Shark on June 13, 2008 at 4:52 PM

AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 8:13 PM

AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 6:47 PM
Ditto and if you don’t agree with them then you are not “a real conservative”. Those who know don’t speak and those who speak don’t know.

ronsfi on June 19, 2008 at 7:00 PM

But that’s why John McCain is our perfect nominee, he isn’t all wingnutted out with the relgious craziness, he understands that this country was settled by the faithful, not the nutjobs who clock you over the head with the cross daily.

Dick Morris is right about this, we are lucky John McCain is our nominee.

AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 8:21 PM

But that’s why John McCain is our perfect nominee, he isn’t all wingnutted out with the relgious craziness, he understands that this country was settled by the faithful, not the nutjobs who clock you over the head with the cross daily.

uh yeah all you ‘real’ ‘conservatives’ voting for the backstabbing captain queeg.

uh yeah glad he’s your nominee…hope theres lots of you ‘conservatives’ to vote for him….cause I sure won’t….and no real conservative would.

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 9:10 PM

We are intelligent beings, and intelligent beings could not have been formed by a blind, brute insensible thing.

Voltaire

davidk on June 19, 2008 at 9:12 PM

Who are you going to believe, me or your own two eyes.

Groucho Marx

davidk on June 19, 2008 at 9:14 PM

We shouldn’t have to be crafting legislation around the Supreme Court.

Sir Andrew on June 19, 2008 at 9:21 PM

It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I’d rather not go there.

Richard Dawkins

A partial list of people who belive in creation:

Agassiz
Boyle
Brewster
Dalton
davidk
Faraday
Galileo
Herschel
Kelvin
Kepler
Linnaeus
Maunder
Maxwell
Mendel
Newton
Pascal
Pasteur
Ramsay
Ray
Steno
Woodward

only one of which is insane.

davidk on June 19, 2008 at 9:24 PM

An increasing number of scientists, most particularly a growing number of evolutionists, … argue that Darwinian evolutionary theory is no genuine scietific theory at all … . Many of the critics have the highest intellectual credentials.

Micheal Ruse

davidk on June 19, 2008 at 9:28 PM

Darwinists, your theory is falling apart.

Evolution is a load of cwap.

davidk on June 19, 2008 at 9:32 PM

Salmonella,

The notion that monotheism evolved from polytheism was discarded decades ago. Catch up, dude.

davidk on June 19, 2008 at 9:35 PM

It’s not the parts of the Bible I don’t understand that bother me, it’s the parts I do understand.

Mark Twain

davidk on June 19, 2008 at 9:38 PM

Evolution is so clearly a fact that you need to be committed to something like a belief in the supernatural if you are at all indisagreement with evolution. It is a fact and we don’t need to prove it anymore.

Ernst Mayr

davidk on June 19, 2008 at 9:47 PM

Q. What are some of the larger questions which are still unanswered by evolutionary theory.

A. The origen of life. There is no consensus ar all here–lots of theories, little science. That’s one of the reasons we didn’t cover it in the series. The evidence wasn’t very clear.

Richard Hutton Producer of the PBS series “Evolution”

davidk on June 19, 2008 at 9:53 PM

[I]t seems to me that the case for an Aristotelian God who has the charateristics of power and also intelligence, is now much stronger than it ever was before.

Anthony Flew

davidk on June 19, 2008 at 9:56 PM

davidk…peace.

RushBaby on June 19, 2008 at 11:23 PM

But that’s why John McCain is our perfect nominee, he isn’t all wingnutted out with the relgious craziness, he understands that this country was settled by the faithful, not the nutjobs who clock you over the head with the cross daily.
uh yeah all you ‘real’ ‘conservatives’ voting for the backstabbing captain queeg.

uh yeah glad he’s your nominee…hope theres lots of you ‘conservatives’ to vote for him….cause I sure won’t….and no real conservative would.

right4life on June 19, 2008 at 9:10 PM

Say what you want – he’s still going to win. He will be the POTUS, that’s a fact. Bottomline – he is the Republican candidate, I am a Republican and I will support my Party and our candidate.

AprilOrit on June 19, 2008 at 11:47 PM

Say what you want – he’s still going to win. He will be the POTUS, that’s a fact. Bottomline – he is the Republican candidate, I am a Republican and I will support my Party and our candidate.

I’d really be surprised if he won. his base is not motivated, and the democrats are. I’m a conservative, not a republican, and they are no longer conservative, and I won’t vote for dem-lite. and the first thing he’ll do is push for amnesty…

right4life on June 20, 2008 at 8:39 AM

for all you billions and billions of years types…

In all the models studied, the moon could not sustain an ocean for more than around 30 million years.
….
Plumes of water vapor were detected erupting out of the surface, and infrared measurements showed 5.8 gigawatts of heat emanating from several narrow ridges called “tiger stripes.”

“It’s a no-brainer that tidal heating is happening on Enceladus,” said William McKinnon of Washington University in Saint Louis. “I can conceive of no other explanation for the south polar thermal anomaly.”

link

but just like any inconvenient fact in evolution, I’m sure they’ll come up with some ‘just-so’ story to maintain the billions of years needed for hairygod darwin and his evolutionary fable to work in..

right4life on June 20, 2008 at 8:42 AM

I notice that not only are practically all the names on david K’s list dead, but that a lot of them had already died before darwin was born, much less before he proposed his theory.

Further elaboration of the laboratory evidence for evolution:

http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php

Salamantis on June 20, 2008 at 12:37 PM

Umm, right4life, that is one of Saturn’s mooons, not the earth’s moon (it’s MUCH colder there). It’s vastly colder there. And the strength of gravity determines whether or not water vapor remains in the atmosphere to rain back down and form bodies of water or drifts out into space, or whether or not a planet can even retain an atmosphere. Earth’s moon, possessing only 1/6 of the earth’s gravitational pull could retain neither, while the Earth itself has retained both.

Salamantis on June 20, 2008 at 1:08 PM

davidk…peace.

RushBaby on June 19, 2008 at 11:23 PM

Heh? Thought the auditorium was empty. :^]

davidk on June 20, 2008 at 6:36 PM

blockquote>Say what you want – he’s still going to win. He will be the POTUS, that’s a fact. Bottomline – he is the Republican candidate, I am a Republican and I will support my Party and our candidate.
I’d really be surprised if he won. his base is not motivated, and the democrats are. I’m a conservative, not a republican, and they are no longer conservative, and I won’t vote for dem-lite. and the first thing he’ll do is push for amnesty…

right4life on June 20, 2008 at 8:39 AM

There’s always The Constitution Party.

AprilOrit on June 20, 2008 at 7:07 PM

whoops –

Say what you want – he’s still going to win. He will be the POTUS, that’s a fact. Bottomline – he is the Republican candidate, I am a Republican and I will support my Party and our candidate.
I’d really be surprised if he won. his base is not motivated, and the democrats are. I’m a conservative, not a republican, and they are no longer conservative, and I won’t vote for dem-lite. and the first thing he’ll do is push for amnesty…

right4life on June 20, 2008 at 8:39 AM

There’s always The Constitution Party.

AprilOrit on June 20, 2008 at 7:08 PM

But you guys may not like the idea that Pastor Chuck can’t stand George Bush and openly supported Ron Paul.

As pastor of the Crossroad Baptist Church in Pensacola, Florida, Baldwin once served in the 1980s as Florida chairman of the Moral Majority founded by the late Jerry Falwell. Before Falwell passed away in 2007, Baldwin distanced himself from his former mentor because of Falwell’s continuing support for President George W. Bush and other GOP headliners who had “strayed from positions vitally important to conservatives.” In the widely read Internet news column he has authored for many years, Baldwin endorsed the 2008 candidacy of Texas Congressman Ron Paul for the Republican nomination, and he specifically spoke out against the candidacies of Mitt Romney, Mike Huckabee, and John McCain. A consistent critic of the current occupant of the White House, Baldwin has regularly chided fellow Christian Right pastors and their flocks for “blind support for President Bush in particular and the Republican Party in general.” He has faulted them for refusing to “honestly face the real danger confronting these United States,” the loss of sovereignty.

AprilOrit on June 20, 2008 at 7:11 PM

Further evidence of evolution:

Fossil helps document shift from sea to land
By Sid Perkins
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/33623/title/Fossil_helps_document_shift_from_sea_to_land

New fossils of an ancient, four-limbed creature help fill in the blanks of the evolutionary transition between fish and the first land-adapted vertebrates.

Fossils of creatures that span the water-to-land transition of vertebrates are few and far between. One of those pioneers, Ventastega curonica, was first described in 1994 but previously has been known only from fragmentary remains unearthed from 365-million-year-old rocks at a site in western Latvia. Fossils found at the site during subsequent excavations now allow scientists to more fully reconstruct the creature, says Per Ahlberg, a paleontologist at Uppsala University in Sweden.

The new remains — including most of the creature’s skull, the braincase, half of the bones in its forelimb and a quarter of its pelvic girdle — suggest that Ventastega was an evolutionary intermediate between Tiktaalik, a four-limbed fish that lived about 382 million years ago (SN: 6/17/06, p. 379), and subsequent tetrapods such as Acanthostega, which were capable of walking on land.

The size and proportions of the new fossils hint that Ventastega probably measured between 1 and 1.3 meters in length. Most features of the creature’s skull match those of Tiktaalik, which lived millions of years earlier, but the overall shape of the skull and braincase “is characteristically ‘early tetrapod,’” Ahlberg says. Likewise, the creature’s lower jawbone was shaped like that of early tetrapods but was adorned with fangs like those found in its fishy predecessors, he notes. “Ventastega was a mosaic of features.”

Ventastega lived approximately during the same era as Acanthostega, but its features were more primitive, a sign that Ventastega may have been an evolutionary holdover, Ahlberg says. Nevertheless, the size and shape of Ventastega’s limb bones, particularly those of its forelimbs, suggest that the creature’s limbs ended in digits, not fins.

The fossil record suggests that the evolutionary transition between fish and early tetrapods was smooth. Over millions of years, these creatures’ eyes grew larger and their snouts became broader while the overall size of the skull decreased somewhat, Ahlberg and his colleagues report in the June 26 Nature.

The new fossils of Ventastega “are great,” says Neil Shubin, a paleontologist at the University of Chicago. Although the newly described remains include just a few bones, “they’re very informative,” he adds. The earliest tetrapods probably evolved between 5 million and 7 million years before Tiktaalik, he notes, and the new fossils will help researchers predict what those creatures would have looked like.

Salamantis on June 27, 2008 at 12:41 PM

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