…I am, in fact, quite firmly anti-Calvinist. I believe that the idea that God creates people in order to torture them for eternity is monstrous, and incompatible with Christian notions of God’s love….

Robert Spencer on June 17, 2008 at 2:20 PM

Robert, for all I care, you can say whatever you like about Islam and its pedophile prophet, but you should be aware that there ARE a number of Calvinist participants (ColtsFan et al) that post here regularly — so it not might be prudent to refer to their theology as “monsterous.” I’ve learned the hard way that there is an enormous potential for misunderstanding here at HotAir.

My beef is that I don’t like pedophiles that hide inside the church — and I don’t like it when churches deny that they exist, or protect them. Furthermore, I know for certain that the problem is NOT confined to the Catholic church (more than 10 years ago, my own church’s pastor was dismissed for molesting people). However, because of my poor choice of words in one of the threads here, some participants are convinced that I am an “anti-Catholic” bigot.

FYI, Protestants of the Wesleyan/Arminian tradition (like myself) differ from the Calvinists in that we believe that God’s love trumps His sovereignty. However, having just finished reading two books on the topic (Calvinism vs. Arminianism), my understanding of the Calvinist doctrine of predestination is that it is a bit weaker and perhaps less bleak than the fatalistic views held by the Muslims. I would hesitate to put the two into the same category — even though I am no believer in predestination.

Just sayin’. That’s all.

If a war is won or lost, it’s the will of Allah. If one is saved or not…the will of Allah. Nothing is in the hands of the individuals.

To this, I’d add that a substantial number of Christians don’t even embrace the concept of free will before salvation. Instead, some are elected and other are not – God is sovereign.

A substantial number? With respect, I don’t think so. You’re describing Calvinism in its pure form, and the idea of “double predestination” as it is sometimes known. This is not the faith of the apostolic Churches — the Catholics and the Orthodox — and is not the faith of most Protestants either.

It is contradicted by several passages of Scripture — both NT and OT. “God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” (I Timothy 2:3) and God has no pleasure in the death of the sinner (Ezekiel 18:23, 32 and 33:11).

This blog is not about my opinions, but since we are on the topic I will say that I am not a Calvinist. I am, in fact, quite firmly anti-Calvinist. I believe that the idea that God creates people in order to torture them for eternity is monstrous, and incompatible with Christian notions of God’s love. In Islam, this idea is just as monstrous, although less contradictory, since there are no statements in the Qur’an that say anything like what is said in the passages from I Timothy and Ezekiel that I refer to above.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Anyway.

Mr. Spencer,

The difference here is that Christianity would acknowledge the possibility that someone might in good faith and good conscience reject Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church discusses this at the Second Vatican Council, “Dignitatus Humanae,” etc. But in Islam, there is no concept of someone rejecting Islam except for selfish and perverse reasons.

To this, I’d add that a substantial number of Christians don’t even embrace the concept of free will before salvation. Instead, some are elected and other are not – God is sovereign. So yeah. Big difference with that one.

They also had close relatives, called vinegaroons. Why? When you stepped on them, they smelled like vinegar.

But the worst was the true scorpions. At night time, when you had to go outside, you opened the door, then SLAMMED it shut. You’d hear the little “tink, tink, tink” of a few scorpions who had gathered around the porch light hitting the ground. Then you could open the door and go out.

They couldn’t really hurt you with their venom… in fact, some of the brain dead used to carry them around on their shoulders as pets. But, dang… that’s a stupid thing to do.

Once, we found one that, stretched out, measured over 12″ long. It was a monster. We kept it in a terrarium at the office just for the visitors to gawk over. People that had lived there all there lives had never seen anything like it.

Face it… in the desert, everything bites, stings or poisons. Don’t even get me started on the velvet ants.

Sorry, I should have been more specific, I don’t know any Muslims well enough to talk religion with, the people I worry about are family and friends who I try to explain the ideology to. My husband in particular who’s fairly conservative has pointed this out to me. I personally don’t worry too much about insulting a Muslim as that appears to be way too easy to do.

http://www.camelspiders.net/large-camel-spider-picture.htm

Snopes says real picture, false description.

Thanks, I just vomitted on my keyboard

…I’m not very adept at explaining what Islam is about. I’ve been told that when I try to explain what muslims believe and the ideology of Islam, I come across as sounding like a racist/bigot. I know I’m not, but apparently this is how I sound.
4shoes on June 16, 2008 at 10:39 AM

Listen to what you’re saying: Muslims always insult you whenever you talk about their religion. How does this make you a bad person?

Instead of worring how they feel about how you sound to them, you need to ask: how do THEY sound to YOU? Do they make any effort to correct your wicked “prejudice” by providing a shining example of their inherent goodness, or do they do absolutely nothing but attack you?

‘Cause it seems like that’s all I ever see.

The lizard that hung out at the end of the runway was cool.

F15Mech on June 15, 2008 at 11:09 PM

Do you mean those lizards with the midsection that looks like its legs and tail are sprouting from a pancake? Yeah, they were cool.

You know the pranksters are spinning myths about the camel spider, and/or hazing the new guys over there!

In other words, Muslim apologists in debating non-Muslims will throw any authority under the bus, but this doesn’t mean that Muslims recognize no authorities.

So basically, Robert, this gets back to the fact that a Muslim can lie about anything and anyone, even his own authorities and teachers, as long as it is “in defense of Islam.”

By the way, there was an imam who said that Allah had sent giant spiders against the Americans in Iraq. I think he was working from this photo. Details here.

Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 12:53 PM

Allah’s been on one hell of a losing steak, hasn’t he? “Release the Roc!”

The almost transparent gecko climbing the wall was very cool.

The kangaroo rats were fun to watch move around the flight line.

Camel spiders…I hated those damn things.

Enquiring minds want to know…..

I didn’t say there was a single central authority — there isn’t. Nor did I say that anyone belonging to one sect will recognize the authority of someone belonging to another sect.

What I was saying was that while Islamic apologists will deny the authority of any Islamic text or teacher when speaking with a non-Muslim, there are actually authorities that Muslims do recognize. For example, once many years ago I was in a radio debate with As’ad AbuKhalil, the “Angry Arab.” When I mentioned the Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar, the great Islamic university in Cairo that is the most respected institution among Sunni Muslims, endorsing suicide attacks, AbuKhalil said this just showed my ignorance, for Muslims actually laugh at Al-Azhar, he said, and hold it in contempt. But many times I’ve been in debates with other Muslims who quote authorities from Al-Azhar to make “moderate” points, and praise Al-Azhar to the skies. And in reality, most Muslims really don’t laugh at Al-Azhar, or hold it in contempt.

In other words, Muslim apologists in debating non-Muslims will throw any authority under the bus, but this doesn’t mean that Muslims recognize no authorities. They do in fact recognize many. Al-Azhar is one of the most prominent.

But within Islam, there are actually recognized authorities, and chains of authority, which Muslims are bound to respect. The apologists are just counting on your not knowing that.

Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 12:49 PM

What do you mean by “within Islam”?

Which version, or sect of Islam, will anyone belonging to another sect recognize as any kind of authority?

If there is one, I don’t the 1.5 billion Muslims got the memo.

Who does he work for during his “few months a year consulting in Washington”? Which cause?

Thanks. What piqued me was Dante’s divine comedy. IIRC, there is some place distinct from hell, where unbaptized(unbelievers ?) are placed, till they gain belief. I believe this is somewhat similar to what catholicism professes.

You are possibly referring to Limbo, a not particularly unpleasant (but not very pleasant) place where the righteous but unbaptized unbelievers dwell in Dante’s Commedia. This was a longstanding Roman Catholic theological opinion, never a doctrine, which has been rejected quite recently by Pope Benedict XVI.

Yes.

The Qur’an teaches that everything happens by Allah’s will. As we have seen many times, Allah decides who will be guided to the truth of Islam and who won’t (2:272; 4:88; 6:125; 10:99; 11:34; 11:117-119; 14:4; 39:37-38, etc). He even created some men in order to torture them in hell (7:179).

The fate of the believers is in his hands: “Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector’” (9:51). Allah determines the times of the deaths of individuals: “Nor can a soul die except by Allah’s leave, the term being fixed as by writing” (3:145). He knows everything: “He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea” (6:59).

Thanks. What piqued me was Dante’s divine comedy. IIRC, there is some place distinct from hell, where unbaptized(unbelievers ?) are placed, till they gain belief. I believe this is somewhat similar to what catholicism professes.

By the way, I find your series on Q’ran very informative, thanks for insight, and please continue the good work.