Blogging the Qur’an: Sura 29, “The Spider”
posted at 8:00 am on June 15, 2008 by Robert Spencer
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This sura’s name comes from v. 41, which compares those who trust in anyone or anything besides Allah to spiders, who labor to build webs that are “the flimsiest of houses.” Maududi says that sura 29 was revealed during “the period of extreme persecution of the Muslims” at Mecca, although he considers and then dismisses the possibility that the first section, since it rails against the Hypocrites who so plagued Muhammad in Medina, were revealed later, during the Medinan period. Evidently the Hypocrites were always about.
Verses 1-13 focus on them, saying that it is not enough to profess belief in Islam, but that believers must be tested (vv. 2-3). The Hypocrites in this case are actually weaklings, who mistake human oppression for the wrath of Allah (v. 10). Allah asks, “Do those who practice evil think that they will get the better of Us? Evil is their judgment!” (v. 4). Even if a believer’s own parents urge one to worship anything or anyone besides Allah, he shouldn’t obey them (v. 8). Ibn Kathir elucidates this: “If they are idolaters, and they try to make you follow them in their religion, then beware of them, and do not obey them in that.” The unbelievers tell the believers that if they forsake Islam and follow them, the unbelievers will bear the penalty for the believers’ sins, but they are, of course, lying (v. 12).
Then in verses 14-39 Allah then once again invokes various prophets: Noah (vv. 14-15); Abraham (vv. 16-27); Lot (vv. 28-35); Shu’aib (vv. 36-38); and Moses (v. 39). Says Maududi: “The stories mentioned in this Surah also impress the same point mostly, as if to say, ‘Look at the Prophets of the past: they were made to suffer great hardships and were treated cruelly for long periods. Then, at last they were helped by Allah. Therefore, take heart: Allah’s succour will certainly come. But a period of trial and tribulation has to be undergone.’ Besides teaching this lesson to the Muslims, the disbelievers also have been warned, as if to say, ‘If you are not being immediately seized by Allah, you should not form the wrong impression that you will never be seized. The signs of the doomed nations of the past are before you. Just see how they met their doom and how Allah succoured the Prophets.’” The warning to those who have heard and rejected Muhammad is clear.
Along the way, many familiar notes are sounded: the truth of Allah is evident from creation (v. 20); Allah grants mercy to whom he pleases and punishes those whom he wishes to punish (v. 21): says Ibn Kathir, “He is the Ruler Who is in control, Who does as He wishes and judges as He wants, and there is none who can put back His judgement. None can question Him about what He does; rather it is they who will be questioned, for His is the power to create and to command, and whatever He decides is fair and just, for He is the sovereign who cannot be unjust in the slightest.” Those who reject his signs (ayat, or verses of the Qur’an) will be severely punished (v. 23).
In verses 40-57 Allah tells Muhammad to keep preaching, but only those with knowledge will understand his message (v. 43). Consequently one early Muslim, Amr bin Murrah, remarked: “I never came across an Ayah [verse] of the Book of Allah that I did not know, but it grieved me” – because his lack of understanding indicated that he didn’t have the requisite knowledge. This verse may be why it is so common today for Muslims to charge that non-Muslims who speak about the Islamic jihad ideology and Islamic supremacism do not understand Islamic texts and teachings; if they did understand them, they would become Muslims. The Qur’an’s meaning is clear in the hearts of the believers (v. 49): the Tafsir al-Jalalayn explains that it is clear “in the breasts of those who have been given knowledge, namely, the believers, who preserve it [in their hearts], and none denies Our signs except wrongdoers, namely, the Jews — they denied them after they were manifested to them.”
Allah tells Muhammad not to get into arguments with the Jews and Christians, “except by better means,” unless it is with one of them who is a wrongdoer – and to tell them that Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same deity (v. 46). The Tafsir al-Jalalayn says that this means Muslims should not argue with Jews and Christians except by “calling [them] to God by [reference to] His signs and pointing out His arguments; except those of them who have done wrong, by waging war and refusing to accept [to pay] the jizya-tax.” Muslims should “dispute with these using the sword, until such time as they submit or pay the jizya-tax,” and remind them that we all worship the same God.
Another early Muslim, Ibn Abbas, told the Muslims it was unnecessary to ask the Jews and Christians religious questions when the Muslims had the Qur’an: “Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything?”
Allah reminds Muhammad that he never read or recited any Scripture before the Qur’an (v. 48) – meaning, says Ibn Kathir, that “you lived among your people for a long time before you brought this Qur’an. During this time you never read any book or wrote anything. Your people, as well as others all know that you are an unlettered man who does not read or write.” This, of course, is the substance of the miracle claimed of the Qur’an itself – that this sublime poetry came to an illiterate man. The unbelievers ask for miracles, but Muhammad’s job is only to warn them about Allah’s judgment (v. 50), and the Qur’an is enough for that (v. 51). The unbelievers will be punished as Allah taunts them: “Taste ye (the fruits) of your deeds!” (v. 55).
Verses 58-69 promise Paradise (v. 58) to those who persevere in patient faith (v. 59). This world is just “a pastime and a game” (v. 64) – the real life is in the next world. But most people do not understand, even though they know Allah created and sustains all things (vv. 63, 65). Allah will guide to the truth those who strive (jahadoo, a form of “jihad”) in his cause (v. 69) – suggesting that one who difficulty believing should fight for Islam, and will thereby come to understand it better. As Ibn Abbas explains: “whoever acts upon what he knows,” Allah “shall give him success to know that which he do not know.”
Next week: Sura 30, “The Byzantines”: The Byzantines have been defeated, but will soon emerge victorious.
(Here you can find links to all the earlier “Blogging the Qur’an” segments. Here is a good Arabic Qur’an, with English translations available; here are two popular Muslim translations, those of Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, along with a third by M. H. Shakir. Here is another popular translation, that of Muhammad Asad. And here is an omnibus of ten Qur’an translations.)
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Moe’s favorite punchline.
Shy Guy on June 15, 2008 at 9:11 AM
The MSA at USC web site was one of the first links I was given by a poster who claimed to be Muslim. He was an American Muslim convert and the posts I made about Islam aggravated him so much that he kept sending me links to sites he felt would “educate” me better than the other pro-Islam sites I had found through Google. Nice guy.
Here’s one of the first things I read when I got there:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html
Bold and emphasis added.
The conclusion I came to over time was that each individual Muslim gets to decide what constitutes “learning and scholarship”. In other words, they believe whoever they want to believe, and anyone who says something different is wrong because they are interpreting it wrong. Or they belong to the wrong side.
I’m not talking about people like you or Pipes or any other non-Muslim. I’m talking about Muslims who refuse to acknowledge other Muslim sources.
Sure, they always fall back on the old “you have to read it in it’s original Arabic to understand it” excuse. But that’s just an excuse. The same posters who would use that excuse had no problem using their own English quotes to support their own arguments when it suited them. (By far the most common quote is the “murder and suicide are forbidden in Islam” quote. The next was the “to kill one person is to kill all of mankind” quote.)
The most common argument against anything they didn’t like was always that the source was wrong. “Oh, that’s a Sunni site”, or “Don’t read that one, that’s a Shi’ite site”, or the most common of all: the dreaded Wahhabi’s!
What would Muslim apologists do without the Wahhabi’s?
My long winded point here is that Muslims themselves are not allowed to interpret anything about Islam by themselves. Since there is no central authority in Islam, they get to believe whoever they want to believe. It’s the perfect system for obtaining, and keeping, local power.
Which is really what Islam is all about in the end. Islam is a system that allows a Muslim man to do whatever he wants, to whoever he wants, whenever he wants, as long as he can say it is in defense of Islam. And everything is in defense of Islam. He can lie, cheat, steal, and kill, and he will have no problem finding some Muslim “scholar” who will justify it for him.
Jaynie59 on June 15, 2008 at 9:32 AM
That’s such a cool picture.
Thank you, RS, for another good lesson.
Your hard work is very much appreciated!
locomotivebreath1901 on June 15, 2008 at 9:34 AM
So, let me get this straight…
Allah is just and all-powerful. Yet if I’m some primitive tribesman from the Amazon jungle, and have never heard of Islam or Allah, I’m still going straight to hell on the day of judgment, even if I’ve lived an otherwise righteous life?
If Allah is so just and all-powerful, how does he allow this?
flipflop on June 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM
Oh, and…
Ugh…camel spiders. Have I mentioned that I hate spiders?
flipflop on June 15, 2008 at 9:56 AM
Oh, they’re working on it. They call it the Caliphate.
flipflop on June 15, 2008 at 9:59 AM
Do we Christians use a similar argument or do we simply say, it’s not a lack of understanding but simply a lack of faith, of belief, that keeps people from becoming Christians? I mean, who could really argue the inability to understand the Gospels keeps people from believing in Christ? It’s an interesting distinction I think. One is simple and meant for all to understand and accept, the other is complex and meant only for the chosen it seams…
TheBigOldDog on June 15, 2008 at 9:59 AM
That’s an interesting point. I remember reading where the Saudi Royal family essentially uses the clerics to justify virtually everything they want to do. It was the “deal” that was set up during the original founding of the Nation that persists to this day.
TheBigOldDog on June 15, 2008 at 10:07 AM
Mr. Spencer,
Is v 41 directed at the Christians and Jews as well as others? If so, how because as stated in v.46, it is the same Allah?
I am using Asad’s translation and that is even more clear (whitewashed?) where he states “for your God and our God are the same…”
Any thoughts?
Thank you again for this series.
dentalque on June 15, 2008 at 10:23 AM
In other words:
“You cannot trust your family, nor your dearest friends — for they aren’t your friends, and your family leads you to disaster! Trust only in me! Avoid them!”
The words “cult” and “paranoia” come to mind.
irishspy on June 15, 2008 at 11:33 AM
Jaynie59:
Referring to Islamic apologists and jihad apologists, this is absolutely true: they will throw any authority under the bus, even the Qur’an, in arguing with a non-Muslim and defending Islam from charges that it encourages warfare and violence.
But within Islam, there are actually recognized authorities, and chains of authority, which Muslims are bound to respect. The apologists are just counting on your not knowing that.
Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 12:49 PM
flipflop:
Yes.
It is his will: “If it had been thy Lord’s will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!” — Qur’an 10:99
Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 12:51 PM
flipflop:
I was told after I put up this pic that it was a Photoshop job, and that there aren’t actually spiders that large. I thought the picture was real. Does anyone have any facts on this?
Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 12:52 PM
By the way, there was an imam who said that Allah had sent giant spiders against the Americans in Iraq. I think he was working from this photo. Details here.
Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 12:53 PM
TheBigOldDog:
The difference here is that Christianity would acknowledge the possibility that someone might in good faith and good conscience reject Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church discusses this at the Second Vatican Council, “Dignitatus Humanae,” etc. But in Islam, there is no concept of someone rejecting Islam except for selfish and perverse reasons.
Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 12:57 PM
dentalque:
Yes, it certainly is. How, if we all worship the same God? Because the Jews and Christians have twisted the teachings of their prophets to create their false religions. The religion of Moses and Jesus, according to Islam, was Islam. What we know of as Judaism and Christianity are just twisted forms of the original teachings of Moses and Jesus.
Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Yeah, and as someone asked above, this Sura once again claims everything is the will of Allah.
I’ve forgotten, does Islam teach predestination?
JetBoy on June 15, 2008 at 1:45 PM
It isn’t photoshopped, just that you have to look real hard at the top-right of the picture- it is a soldier’s DCU sleeve. He is using a knife to show off two dead camel spiders. They look bigger than they should because of the soldier in the background. He is actually standing some distance away from the camera. This is an old picture.
That said, most are small, but I’ve seen some larger than my hand. Oh, they are fast.
SGT M.G.
OIF
spec_ops_mateo on June 15, 2008 at 1:47 PM
It’s almost certainly a photoshop job. The camel spider is real, but it “only” gets to about 5″ in length.
flipflop on June 15, 2008 at 1:48 PM
Hi Robert, we looked up these things when we saw the pics, sorry I can’t give the links, my computer’s acting up at the moment, but from what I read earlier, these aren’t actually spiders, they’ve got 6 major legs for walking and some smaller ones up front that they use to hold prey, totaling more than 8. They have 2 separate jaws and only 2 eyes. Freaky for sure. The name, Solfugid.
4shoes on June 15, 2008 at 1:57 PM
I don’t know if it’s a Photoshop job, or if it’s perspective. It would be easy to even accidentally make the spider look much larger than it is by placing it in the foreground of the picture. Ever do the photo trick of holding out your hand level with someone in the background so it looked like you were holding a small person in your hand? Same principle.
In any event, the stories about camel spiders are horrifying–fast, aggressive, and seemingly unafraid of humans. I hate all spiders, but a spider that gets to be 5-6″ would cause me to completely flip out.
DrMagnolias on June 15, 2008 at 2:01 PM
Snopes says real picture, false description.
JetBoy on June 15, 2008 at 2:07 PM
Just a minor query to no one in particular. What is the fate of the unbelievers in Judaism, Christianity (Catholic and Protestant) and Islam ?
Gaurav on June 15, 2008 at 2:09 PM
Thanks
I should have known that, it has come up a number of times.
dentalque on June 15, 2008 at 2:26 PM
Interesting. Very interesting.
SouthernGent on June 15, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Aaah yes, the divine Qur’an. The foundational validation for Islam. The Judaic and Christian texts must have been corrupted by man over time, otherwise, Islam would be seen as it really is…shoddy plagarism for a completely self-serving, self-proclaimed prophet in Muhammad.
Thank you, Robert.
awake on June 15, 2008 at 2:59 PM
Gaurav:
I am no authority on Judaism or much of Protestant Christianity. In Islam, certainly unbelievers suffer hellfire. Catholicism is not so sure.
Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 3:21 PM
Thanks for all the spider info, everyone. Looking at the photo closely I do suspect that there are two of them. Charming creatures!
Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 3:21 PM
RS.
Thanks. What piqued me was Dante’s divine comedy. IIRC, there is some place distinct from hell, where unbaptized(unbelievers ?) are placed, till they gain belief. I believe this is somewhat similar to what catholicism professes.
By the way, I find your series on Q’ran very informative, thanks for insight, and please continue the good work.
Gaurav on June 15, 2008 at 3:29 PM
JetBoy:
Yes.
The Qur’an teaches that everything happens by Allah’s will. As we have seen many times, Allah decides who will be guided to the truth of Islam and who won’t (2:272; 4:88; 6:125; 10:99; 11:34; 11:117-119; 14:4; 39:37-38, etc). He even created some men in order to torture them in hell (7:179).
The fate of the believers is in his hands: “Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector’” (9:51). Allah determines the times of the deaths of individuals: “Nor can a soul die except by Allah’s leave, the term being fixed as by writing” (3:145). He knows everything: “He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea” (6:59).
Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 3:32 PM
Gaurav:
You are possibly referring to Limbo, a not particularly unpleasant (but not very pleasant) place where the righteous but unbaptized unbelievers dwell in Dante’s Commedia. This was a longstanding Roman Catholic theological opinion, never a doctrine, which has been rejected quite recently by Pope Benedict XVI.
Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 3:36 PM
Who is this man? Referred to by ObamaII as Roy. But his older half-brother, named Malik Abongo Obama, is Muslim and does not go by Roy.
Who does he work for during his “few months a year consulting in Washington”? Which cause?
faraway on June 15, 2008 at 4:21 PM
What do you mean by “within Islam”?
Which version, or sect of Islam, will anyone belonging to another sect recognize as any kind of authority?
If there is one, I don’t the 1.5 billion Muslims got the memo.
Jaynie59 on June 15, 2008 at 7:21 PM
Jaynie49:
I didn’t say there was a single central authority — there isn’t. Nor did I say that anyone belonging to one sect will recognize the authority of someone belonging to another sect.
What I was saying was that while Islamic apologists will deny the authority of any Islamic text or teacher when speaking with a non-Muslim, there are actually authorities that Muslims do recognize. For example, once many years ago I was in a radio debate with As’ad AbuKhalil, the “Angry Arab.” When I mentioned the Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar, the great Islamic university in Cairo that is the most respected institution among Sunni Muslims, endorsing suicide attacks, AbuKhalil said this just showed my ignorance, for Muslims actually laugh at Al-Azhar, he said, and hold it in contempt. But many times I’ve been in debates with other Muslims who quote authorities from Al-Azhar to make “moderate” points, and praise Al-Azhar to the skies. And in reality, most Muslims really don’t laugh at Al-Azhar, or hold it in contempt.
In other words, Muslim apologists in debating non-Muslims will throw any authority under the bus, but this doesn’t mean that Muslims recognize no authorities. They do in fact recognize many. Al-Azhar is one of the most prominent.
Robert Spencer on June 15, 2008 at 7:53 PM
What is the picture of on the main page that is used to illustrate this entry?
Enquiring minds want to know…..
swampleg on June 15, 2008 at 10:46 PM
The lizard that hung out at the end of the runway was cool.
The almost transparent gecko climbing the wall was very cool.
The kangaroo rats were fun to watch move around the flight line.
Camel spiders…I hated those damn things.
F15Mech on June 15, 2008 at 11:09 PM
Allah’s been on one hell of a losing steak, hasn’t he? “Release the Roc!”
argos on June 16, 2008 at 8:24 AM
What the hell is that thing in the photo?
Spanglemaker on June 16, 2008 at 9:06 AM
So basically, Robert, this gets back to the fact that a Muslim can lie about anything and anyone, even his own authorities and teachers, as long as it is “in defense of Islam.”
crazy_legs on June 16, 2008 at 10:17 AM
That’s a camel spider. I’ve heard about them. Nothing deadly, but I know they don’t like the sun. I’ve heard stories about soldiers getting freaked out when the spiders follow their shadows. I would be totally freaked out!
You know the pranksters are spinning myths about the camel spider, and/or hazing the new guys over there!
budorob on June 16, 2008 at 10:27 AM
Jaynie59 and Robert,
I must thank you both for the questions and answers, it makes it all much more clear to me. I’ve even forwarded some to my husband as I’m not very adept at explaining what Islam is about. I’ve been told that when I try to explain what muslims believe and the ideology of Islam, I come across as sounding like a racist/bigot. I know I’m not, but apparently this is how I sound.
4shoes on June 16, 2008 at 10:39 AM
Do you mean those lizards with the midsection that looks like its legs and tail are sprouting from a pancake? Yeah, they were cool.
James on June 16, 2008 at 10:54 AM
Listen to what you’re saying: Muslims always insult you whenever you talk about their religion. How does this make you a bad person?
Instead of worring how they feel about how you sound to them, you need to ask: how do THEY sound to YOU? Do they make any effort to correct your wicked “prejudice” by providing a shining example of their inherent goodness, or do they do absolutely nothing but attack you?
‘Cause it seems like that’s all I ever see.
logis on June 16, 2008 at 1:35 PM
For God so loved the world that He gave His one
and only Son, that whoever believes in Him, shall not perish but have eternal life.
– John 3:16
byteshredder on June 16, 2008 at 1:56 PM
JetBoy on June 15, 2008 @ 2:07 PM
Thanks, I just vomitted on my keyboard
Hunt035 on June 16, 2008 at 6:14 PM
Here’s a bigger pic. Now this might send a “tingle” up your leg, eh Chrissy?
http://www.camelspiders.net/large-camel-spider-picture.htm
argos on June 16, 2008 at 7:05 PM
logis on June 16, 2008 at 1:35 PM
Sorry, I should have been more specific, I don’t know any Muslims well enough to talk religion with, the people I worry about are family and friends who I try to explain the ideology to. My husband in particular who’s fairly conservative has pointed this out to me. I personally don’t worry too much about insulting a Muslim as that appears to be way too easy to do.
4shoes on June 16, 2008 at 8:17 PM
As a former resident of the intermountain west, we called those things solpugids… or “sun spiders.” They were never a problem, were quite common, and yes, they are hell of fast!
They also had close relatives, called vinegaroons. Why? When you stepped on them, they smelled like vinegar.
But the worst was the true scorpions. At night time, when you had to go outside, you opened the door, then SLAMMED it shut. You’d hear the little “tink, tink, tink” of a few scorpions who had gathered around the porch light hitting the ground. Then you could open the door and go out.
They couldn’t really hurt you with their venom… in fact, some of the brain dead used to carry them around on their shoulders as pets. But, dang… that’s a stupid thing to do.
Once, we found one that, stretched out, measured over 12″ long. It was a monster. We kept it in a terrarium at the office just for the visitors to gawk over. People that had lived there all there lives had never seen anything like it.
Face it… in the desert, everything bites, stings or poisons. Don’t even get me started on the velvet ants.
wccawa on June 16, 2008 at 10:38 PM
I’m going to have nightmares just GLANCING at that picture. Hurry up and blog the next chapter, guys!!
Rosmerta on June 17, 2008 at 12:52 AM
Note the sleeve in the foreground. They’re only … 5 or 6 inches … oh God.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Anyway.
Mr. Spencer,
To this, I’d add that a substantial number of Christians don’t even embrace the concept of free will before salvation. Instead, some are elected and other are not - God is sovereign. So yeah. Big difference with that one.
TheUnrepentantGeek on June 17, 2008 at 1:59 PM
TheUnrepentantGeek:
A substantial number? With respect, I don’t think so. You’re describing Calvinism in its pure form, and the idea of “double predestination” as it is sometimes known. This is not the faith of the apostolic Churches — the Catholics and the Orthodox — and is not the faith of most Protestants either.
It is contradicted by several passages of Scripture — both NT and OT. “God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” (I Timothy 2:3) and God has no pleasure in the death of the sinner (Ezekiel 18:23, 32 and 33:11).
This blog is not about my opinions, but since we are on the topic I will say that I am not a Calvinist. I am, in fact, quite firmly anti-Calvinist. I believe that the idea that God creates people in order to torture them for eternity is monstrous, and incompatible with Christian notions of God’s love. In Islam, this idea is just as monstrous, although less contradictory, since there are no statements in the Qur’an that say anything like what is said in the passages from I Timothy and Ezekiel that I refer to above.
Robert Spencer on June 17, 2008 at 2:20 PM
I just can’t fathom the belief that Allah has predetermined everything for everyone. And that’s a lot of references in the Koran too. In many Christian churches, it is by faith and WORKS that one is saved. Even though God knows all, one is in control of ones spiritual life, and thus…with free will…in control of his or her salvation. Of course, it’s always up to God, but in Islam, it seems that no matter what a person does or doesn’t do, Allah has already determined your outcome.
If a war is won or lost, it’s the will of Allah. If one is saved or not…the will of Allah. Nothing is in the hands of the individuals.
JetBoy on June 17, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Robert, for all I care, you can say whatever you like about Islam and its pedophile prophet, but you should be aware that there ARE a number of Calvinist participants (ColtsFan et al) that post here regularly — so it not might be prudent to refer to their theology as “monsterous.” I’ve learned the hard way that there is an enormous potential for misunderstanding here at HotAir.
My beef is that I don’t like pedophiles that hide inside the church — and I don’t like it when churches deny that they exist, or protect them. Furthermore, I know for certain that the problem is NOT confined to the Catholic church (more than 10 years ago, my own church’s pastor was dismissed for molesting people). However, because of my poor choice of words in one of the threads here, some participants are convinced that I am an “anti-Catholic” bigot.
FYI, Protestants of the Wesleyan/Arminian tradition (like myself) differ from the Calvinists in that we believe that God’s love trumps His sovereignty. However, having just finished reading two books on the topic (Calvinism vs. Arminianism), my understanding of the Calvinist doctrine of predestination is that it is a bit weaker and perhaps less bleak than the fatalistic views held by the Muslims. I would hesitate to put the two into the same category — even though I am no believer in predestination.
Just sayin’. That’s all.
CyberCipher on June 17, 2008 at 7:01 PM